Saturday, February 26, 2022

They're Trying To Get You To Support Another Phony War

Previously: My Interview at Book of Mormon Podcast

Nothing I've read in the Book of Mormon the past couple of years has struck me as forcefully as what Jesus told the Nephites would occur among us in the last days.  Three times he reiterated the sins that would be among us, and since He was only with the Nephites a short time, he must have really wanted us -the ones who would eventually receive that record- to sit up and take notice when we saw these prophecies come to pass among us. Each time the Savior reiterated the list of sins we would be awash in, two in particular were always at the top of His list: "lies and deceptions."  I assume therefore that he wanted us to be especially keen in watching out for them. (I included each list with corresponding cites in my earlier post "The Sins at the Top of the List.")

We've seen an abundance of lies and deceptions foisted on us by those in positions of power these past few years, and the latest attempt to get the populace to go along with their schemes is this idea that we should take sides with them against Russia. They have told us repeatedly that it will require us, the common people, to make sacrifices, but they haven't exactly been up front about why. 

I've been watching a lot of coverage about what is happening in Ukraine since last week, but nowhere am I seeing the full story told.  No, not even on the Fox News Channel, where virtually everyone there (with the possible exception of Tucker Carlson) has taken the same posture that network did twenty years ago when they banged the war drums in support of America's invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan.  In short, all of mainstream media, both liberal and conservative networks, have suddenly become avid warhawks.

So, if you've a mind not to get fooled again this time around, you deserve to know what they haven't been telling you.

What They Haven't Been Telling You 
First thing to know about the situation in Ukraine is that this not something you should be manipulated into taking sides on.  There is nothing patriotic about siding with the American political establishment on this; they are in the wrong.

This is little different than a gang war between two crime families, the Deep State versus Russia.  Think of it as a feud between the Genovese crime family and the Gambino crime family.  This doesn't involve you, and if you take sides with one crime family over another, you are in the wrong as well. God will not smile on you for cheering on either side. So here are the facts:

In case you're too young to remember, for several decades following World War II, the Soviet Union consisted of Russia and fifteen satellite countries.  These satellite countries were all communist, just like Russia. The leaders of these satellite countries were puppet dictators who took their orders from the Russian Politburo. You'll recognize the names of some of these satellite nations as Poland, Georgia, Czekoslovakia, Lithuania, Latvia, Kazakhstan, and a handful of other countries with names ending with "-stan." 

And, of course, Ukraine.

Back then, the Soviet Union, a sizable superpower that openly threatened to "bury" the West, was rightly considered a threat to the rest of the world. So the governments of the major Western nations created an alliance known as the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, or NATO. The idea behind NATO was that if the Soviets tried any funny business, we would all gang up on them and see that they learned to play nice.  It seems to have worked.  Then, after years of Russians becoming dissatisfied with the failure of the promise of a communist paradise, in December 1991 the Soviet Union fell. Having lost the ability to keep its own people in check, Russia also lost control of its puppet states. The people of these countries, tired of communism, moved toward more democratic governments. And all was well with the world. Kinda sorta.

With the Soviet Union no longer a threat, one would expect that NATO, which existed only as a guard against encroachments by the Soviets, should have been dissolved, being no longer needed. But that didn't happen. In fact, in the decades following the collapse of the Soviet Union, NATO' has continued to expand, giving truth to the old adage that governments, once given power, almost never give that power up, even long after any reason exists for them to have that power.  And this is where Ukraine comes in.

Ukraine is not a free nation. It is not a democratic republic. Hell, it isn't even a democracy. In 2014 the U.S. government overthrew the democratically elected government of Ukraine in a violent coup and replaced that government with one more malleable to U.S. interests.  The result is that today Ukraine's government is almost as thoroughly corrupt as our own. Ukraine has, for all intents and purposes, become a vassal state of the U.S. government.  This is why our president (also beholden to globalists hell-bent on bringing Ukraine in as a member of NATO), has been able to treat Ukraine as his personal piggy-bank.  It's also why politicians on both sides of the aisle aren't telling you the truth.

Now, why would that be? Why would NATO have need of a member country that exists right next door to Russia?  Well, that's kinda what Vladimir Putin wants to know. 

The truth is, Putin does know why, and I'll get to that in a minute.

When I said Ukraine is not a free country, I was not entirely accurate.  The people in a large region of Ukraine have declared their independence from Ukraine.  They consider themselves a free people who have formed a free nation they call Donbas. Here's what that looks like on the map:

You'll notice that Donbas is right smack dab next to Russia. Here's the thing about the people of Donbas: like a lot of people who left Russia following the collapse of the Soviet Union, they are overwhelmingly Russian. They moved next door to Ukraine, but they speak Russian. Their culture is Russian. The vast majority of them are devout Christians who attend Russian Orthodox churches there in the Donbas region. One other thing: The illegitimate government of Ukraine does not like the people of Donbas. Partly because they're Russians, and partly because they don't wish to be ruled.

Now, you get to understand that the people of Donbas don't want to be governed by Ukraine.  But that doesn't mean they want to go back to being governed by Russia, either.  So some years ago they declared their independence. How do you think the government of Ukraine has reacted to a swath of its population declaring themselves no longer under its iron fist? Well, the Ukraine government says Donbas can't be allowed to be independent, and to that end the Ukrainian government has been shelling the Donbas region for the past eight years.  Let that sink in: For eight long years, the government of Ukraine has been slaughtering its own civilian population just because they want the freedom to live their lives as they see fit.  The prime minister of Canada has nothing on the president of Ukraine.

Why do you suppose Ukraine wants these people to fall back in line?  Well, one reason could be that Donbas is right on the border of Russia.  NATO is a highly militarized outfit, and Putin certainly realizes that if NATO gets a toehold in Ukraine, and if Donbas is out of the picture, NATO would be setting up weapons right next door to Russia, right there on the border.  With Donbas a free and independent state, NATO wouldn't be able to do that, because Donbas does not want to join NATO.

Putin seems to have figured out that having NATO right next door to Russia might possibly pose a threat to Russians.  Call me crazy, but I think Putin prefers that doesn't happen.

Just as an aside, Putin finds Biden's threats of sanctions laughable; threats by Biden mean absolutely nothing to the Russians.  They don't give a hang about Biden's sanctions. They have all the energy, and we don't, thanks to Biden shutting down all U.S. sources of energy creation the very day he took office.

As well as having a corner on the world's fuel, the Russians also have control of a great deal of the world's grain, and Russia has already stopped shipping it to us the moment Biden announced his feckless sanctions against them.  If anyone is going to suffer from Biden's silly sanctions, it will be the American people, who will be largely dependent on Russia in order to fill their gas tanks, as well as many of the other things Russia controls that we're going to need to use and eat. 

So -no surprise- our genius politicians didn't quite think this through before poking that stick in Putin's eye. On a recent episode of Tucker Carlson Tonight, Tulsi Gabbard explains how all this could have been avoided: Had Biden simply taken NATO off the table, the threat to Russia would have evaporated; Putin would have seen no reason to send planes over Ukraine. Styxhexenhammer also weighs in on how Biden foolishly humiliated himself because he thought acting like a tough guy would work against an actual tough guy. (Warning: Styx tends to use naughty words, so hide the kids.)

There Will Have To Be Sacrifices
On the run-up to war, Biden and the establishment spokesmen solemnly informed the American people that if war breaks out in Ukraine, sacrifices will have to be made:  Not by them, mind you; they all have huge government pensions and no reason to worry about how they're going to fill their Bentleys with gas.  They meant you. You will have to make sacrifices.  But they never tell us why, except for feigning nebulous clichés that suggest that antagonizing Russia is somehow "the right thing to do."

Vladimir Putin long ago recognized Donbas as a sovereign state.  Is it a cynical move made only because it will play to his advantage? Could be. It certainly is to his advantage to have a sovereign nation of people who share Russia's culture on his doorstep rather than a nation of foreigners who are hostile.  But what does any of that matter to you and me?  Why should we care about any of this, other than being in favor of seeing a people who wish to be free allowed to be free? 

What, then, is the actual danger of a potentially hostile puppet country like Ukraine right on the doorstep of Russia?

Well, for one thing, many in the know claim that Ukraine has eight separate labs involved in the development of chemical and biowarfare, and that these labs are controlled by the United States.  Is that true?  Well, there is no shortage of reports pooh-poohing the idea that such labs could possibly exist, but I've seen no compelling arguments to refute the allegation. In essence, the sources relied on in these reports always consist of some U.S. official or other coming out and denying these labs exist. So, I guess we're supposed to just trust the word of people who are known to be compulsive liars.

The question we deserve to ask is, are Putin's accusations plausible? Well, his planes did bomb eight laboratories and I think his government has sufficient evidence to suggest he knew what he was after. Russia has intelligence agencies too, you know.  For my part, I think it's extremely naïve in this day and age to believe that any developing nation is not developing bioweapons.  This report from the U.S. Embassy in Ukraine says Ukraine has a biological threat reduction program.  Where does that program conduct its business? Why, in labs, of course! "The Biological Threat Reduction Program’s priorities in Ukraine are to consolidate and secure pathogens and toxins of security concerns..." A further evidence is this report claiming that the Russian invasion of Ukraine risks release of dangerous pathogensWhat dangerous pathogens? I thought they said they didn't have any.

But Why Bioweapons?
It's much easier to deploy chemical and bioweapons on an enemy country than it is to line up tanks and soldiers and conventional weapons that everyone can see coming.  It's also easier to deploy those weapons if the country you're planning to use them on is right next door. 

But before Ukraine can pull anything like that off, it's going to have to do something about those pesky people of Donbas, because they are right smack dab in the way. Despite the propaganda you're hearing, Putin has not been attacking civilians in Ukraine. What you're not specifically hearing is that the Russian bombers took out all eight of those labs, as well as any pertinent military installations. He has stated that his operation is not to occupy Ukraine but to "demilitarize and de-Nazify" that country. I don't know how far Putin is going to go with this, but so far he has said he is doing nothing more than protecting the people of Ukraine from their government, which is the same thing the U.S. said when they bombed Libya. Which makes the U.S. look like hypocrites for criticizing him, since he's only doing what the Americans claimed was right and proper when they did the same thing.  

Wait...Did He Say Ukraine Is Full Of NAZIS?!
Sure seems like it. Four years ago Reuters News Service put out a piece showing that groups sporting actual Nazi-era symbolism and spouting neo-Nazi ideology have infiltrated the Ukraine armed forces, with the tacit approval of the Ukraine government. This is not reported in our media, if for no other reason than it would embarrass the Biden administration to have to admit it was opposing the Russians for opposing Nazis. (You may have noticed Biden says he opposes Nazis too.)  And lest we forget, Hitler was actually defeated by Russia in the second world war; America and Britain showed up pretty much after Der Fuhrer had been cornered and defeated. So, if there's anything we know about Nazis, it's that they don't much care for them Russians.

Openly identifying as Nazis and Nationalists seems to be all the rage in Ukraine right now, and for whatever reason, they really seem to have it in for anyone named Ivan. When you watch the opening of the video featured on that site showing Ukrainian children at a Summer Youth Camp shouting "We are Ukraine's children! Let Moscow lay in ruins, we don't give a damn! We will conquer the whole world!" it's not hard to see why Putin might want to prevent that toxic ideology from crossing over into his country. And you can see why he supports the independence of Donbas, seeing as everyone else in Ukraine seems to want them dead and gone.

Which brings us to the salient lesson here, and one all Mormons should truly take to heart. The Book of Mormon teaches us that we should defend our lands, and that we get in trouble when we meddle in the affairs of other countries. That was also the sage advice of George Washington. But what we have here is one country (the U.S.) meddling in the affairs of another county (Ukraine) so far away that it makes no sense that the U.S. should have any interest in Ukraine at all.  This has resulted in the country right on Ukraine's border (Russia) feeling it necessary to defang the aggressor that is clearly and openly threatening it.

It was obviously wrong -and incredibly stupid- for Biden and his handlers to poke the Russian bear, but is it moral for the Russian bear to finally decide it has had enough and poke back? Well, that's the dilemma, isn't it? If The Russians are careful to only eliminate the direct military threats, it's still a sticky situation to defend in light of scripture. But I can't say I don't understand the motivation to strike defensively. 

What I do believe firmly is that the wise thing would be for America's establishment to recognize it went too far, and for our war-hungry politicians to slink back home and lick their wounds, lesson learned.  But this I am sure they will not do, because (as you may have noticed), the political class as it stands today is not very intelligent.  They're certainly not smart enough to do what's right. And they have long since ceased to check in with God to see what He thinks before making any decisions.

So, bottom line, I certainly don't foresee these dopes will ever stop trafficking in lies and deceptions. The bigger question for Americans, and everyone else in the West, is this: Are you ready to die for Ukraine?  More pointedly, are you ready to die at the hands of Russia in clear violation of the commandment God gave His people in D&C 98:33?  Because that is what your government is about to demand you do. As Lew Rockwell reminds us, this is not a desirable outcome, given the fact that the U.S. government is clearly in the wrong here, has had ample opportunity to repent, and the enemy it proposes to go up against has nuclear weapons pointed right at us. 

"Instead of maintaining the status quo, we have expanded NATO towards Russia’s border. Make no mistake–Russia considers the expansion of NATO as a direct military threat. . . the United States has been conducting regular military exercises in countries bordering Russia for more than 20 years. If you think these exercises are of no concern to Russia you are worse than a damn fool. Now we are arming the Ukraine with weapons that will be used against Ukrainians with strong ties to Russia. This is madness that carries a genuine risk of sparking a nuclear conflagration. Russia will not be bullied and will not cower.” 

"The great expert on Russia Stephen Cohen warned us over two years ago that trouble lay in store for us: “Ukraine is not ‘a vital US national interest,’ as most leaders of both parties, Republican and Democrat alike, and much of the US media now declare. On the other hand, Ukraine is a vital Russian interest by any geopolitical or simply human reckoning. Why, then, is Washington so deeply involved in Ukraine?. . . The short but essential answer is Washington’s decision, taken by President Bill Clinton in the 1990s, to expand NATO eastward from Germany and eventually to Ukraine itself. Ever since, both Democrats and Republicans have insisted that Ukraine is a ‘vital US national interest.’ Those of us who opposed that folly warned it would lead to dangerous conflicts with Moscow, conceivably even war. Imagine Washington’s reaction, we pointed out, if Russian military bases began to appear on Canada’s or Mexico’s borders with America.-"Why Die for Ukraine?"  Lew Rockwell, January 29, 2022 (emphasis mine)
 Here is what Paul Craig Roberts wrote just today in a piece titled "Russia Demilitarizes Ukraine":

"The West, of course, is screaming its impotent accusations, but the barrage of Western media lies will have no effect on the outcome. If the Western World had any intelligent leaders, what would they conclude? They would conclude that the days of baiting the bear are over. As I have reported for some time, Russia has had enough of the West’s lies, deceptions, insults, and provocations. Henceforth, when Russia tells them something, they would do well to turn their ears on. Putin has said that Russia will not permit Ukraine to develop nuclear weapons, and he has said that Russia will not tolerate US/NATO bases on her borders. The US and NATO had better believe it.

"Putin said Russia has no intention to occupy Ukraine. Russia does not want Ukraine, but Russia will not permit the continued militarization of the country by the US and NATO or the Ukrainian attacks on the Donbass Russians. The West had better understand this." (Emphasis mine.)

If Biden's latest debacle has shown us anything, it is that the Ruling Class is not the infallible, indestructible behemoth they thought they were. America is no longer the biggest sonofabitch in the valley, and those in power had better learn that real quick. Our nation is weak, and it is crumbling apart, and this is all because we -if not all of us, at least those we have allowed to rule over us- no longer recognize that Jehovah is our Lord, and "he that ruleth over men must be just, ruling in the fear of God." (2Samuel 23:3).

Here is theologian Dr. Steven Turley discussing how, on February 24th of this year, the globalist order officially collapsed.  This is also an excellent 13 minute summary of everything I've written above. I think you should share it:

Is Turley correct? Does this mark the beginning of the end of the unchallenged power of the global elite?  Time will tell. But I'm sure of one thing: In spite of the collective efforts of all the globalists, deep state operatives, corrupt politicians, and their myrmidons in the media, not everyone is falling for this deception. Not this time. 


Update February 27, 2022: THE FIRST CASUALTY
There's an old adage that first gained traction during World War I that states "the first casualty of war is truth."  I didn't want to make this post any longer than it was by digging up all the propaganda currently being spewed, but I think some of the more ridiculous examples are worth a look. 

The first, and most absurd I have seen so far, is the headline from The Sun claiming that Russia has drawn up a "kill list" of blacks and gays in Ukraine they intend to dispose of.  As you may have guessed, that story was completely made up, but it has circulated widely, even among "respected" outlets such as NPR. 

But that's not all. According to another rumor, Russia will be deploying "mobile crematoriums" to follow its troops into battle, presumably so they can stop and spend time burning those black and gay Ukrainians alive, one person at a time. The British tabloid The Mirror (what is it with the British tabloid press, anyway?) helpfully provides photos of one such "incinerator on wheels" to accompany the article:


Anyone with an IQ higher than the average Weekly World News reader would have instantly noticed that the guys operating that machine look a lot less like Russian soldiers and more like sanitation workers somewhere in the Western hemisphere.  And sure enough, someone on social media named Olga corrected a tweet left by a horrified guy named Rob Crilly, patiently explaining to Rob what these ominous looking machines are actually used for:

Last night my daughter Amy put me onto an internet site I had not known about, hosted by one Jim Stone, that is fast becoming one of the most reliable roundups of short news snippets on the internet.  Jim provides a daily update on the propaganda being currently circulated on the situation in Ukraine. Where a rumor is debunked, he says so. Where the rumor remains unconfirmed, he also says so. This is where I learned the truth about the story currently circulating in the media about a Russian tank crushing a civilian's car with the driver still in it.  Here's the picture currently circulating in the media:

As it turns out, a tank really did run over and crush a civilian automobile, but it wasn't a Russian tank. It was a Ukrainian army tank. The driver of the tank panicked as he was being shot at, swung his tank around, and ran right over this poor guy's car. The good news is the driver of the car survived (that's him poking his head up) and was helped out by the crew operating the tank once they calmed down and stopped shaking.

Are you waiting for the media outlets who shared this horror story to issue a correction? I wouldn't hold my breath. The narrative is only helped when Russian soldiers appear heartless and brutal.  It wouldn't do to admit a Ukrainian soldier freaked out and tried to hightail it outta there screaming like a little girl. 

Finally, here's Jimmy Dore and Aaron Mate, sharing the many media lies that have been debunked so far about this war (but that you were never told about).  Get ready to have your jaw drop to the floor:

Second Update February 27th:
The propaganda has gone SO over the top now that it's a subject in itself.

More from Jim Stone:
"First of all, Putin is not weak, and Putin is not defeated. Word on the street is that Putin used his junk at first and will pull out the good stuff if NATO attacks. And it seems legit, there were a few good cruise missiles used but most of what got used really was not Russia's best.

"I have seen lots of crap about Russian tech being "50 years behind the United States" and it is always from a war monger that probably wants Americans to believe victory will be easy. But even if America's tech is better, it is going to be used by a military that was recently maimed by a death vax. The playing field is probably quite level." (See more from that site on today's date regarding how Russia is definitely not 50 years behind the U.S. in weapons capability.)


jstcommentary said...


I am probably wrong, but it could be that GOD is tired of the US killing babies, promoting transgenderism, and shutting down churches for a fake pandemic. GOD could also be tired of Ukraine shelling faithful Christians. Putin is no saint, but he is the devil you know. Biden is the devil who doesn't know even what he himself is thinking, so how can he know what Putin is thinking.

Great work as usual.

John Scott Peterson

Alan Rock Waterman said...

I don't think you're wrong, John Scott.

Knight said...

Y'know, this sort of reminds me of the Parable of the Olive Trees, when the worst of the branches were plucked off and burned. In my mind, isolating Russia and the Global American Empire (formerly the U. S. of A.), Russia appears to be the lesser evil in a few cases: Russia promotes their version of Christianity, while the GAE is directly and indirectly promoting satanism; Russia promotes natural, Biblical marriage and population growth, while the GAE advocates all sorts of sexual aberrations and infanticide. While I still don't think Putin will be a benevolent or good dictator, I do think, if the GAE sticks itself uninvited into this conflict, it will be the worse-off branch that's taken out first.

Just like Zeniff's contingency that tried to take over the Lamanite territory and ended up subjugated (Mosiah 9-22), and just like the remnant of Lehi's seed that was "trodden under foot" by the invading Gentiles (1 Nephi 13-14, 3 Nephi 21), I think we're in for some hard times as a nation.

(As a side note, the thought just crossed my mind of D&C 133: 26, where it states "They who are in the north countries shall come in remembrance before the Lord; and their prophets shall hear his voice, and shall no longer stay themselves; and they shall smite the rocks, and the ice shall flow down at their presence." How possible does it seem that these are connected, even in an indirect way?)

Alan Rock Waterman said...

These are strange times indeed when Putin, who few would normally describe as a nice guy, is piled on by other villains for merely reacting to seeing his country encircled about by those who would do his people harm. Alas, such is the power of propaganda, as the propagandists in the Western nations attempt to make themselves out as virtuous victims of a madman intent on destroying them for no reason at all. The great irony here is that in Russia today (as in Donbas) churches are growing and thriving, while throughout the United States and other Western countries, governments have been doing their best to curtail, if not crush, their citizen's rights to openly worship.

As you suggest, in some instances these days, Russia does indeed appear to be the lesser evil.

Eric Kuntz said...

It's all theater. They are actors in a play. There is no USA. There is no Russia. There is no Ukraine. It's all a hoax.

"And all the men and women merely players; They have their exits and their entrances, And one man in his time plays many parts, His acts being seven ages." Shakespeare

PNW_DPer said...

Well, as I commented on someone's facebook post about not seeing the latest cold numbers;

"Yeah, they hired Putin to create a distraction from the war on us little people. Only Putin doesn't come cheap, so they are having the little people pay him through higher gas and oil prices (NS-2 to remain shutdown, but all other Russian gas and oil exempt from sanctions at stratospheric prices)." (Only semi-sarcastic.)

Outstanding in my Field said...

It is amazing how many people will follow a man whether a church leader or a politician to make a decision rather than actually doing a little deep research to determine what the facts might really be. The commentator above came close stating, "They are actors in a play" and another mentioned, "to create a distraction" because the Deep State, or bad guys and the White Hats, the good guys are dancing around with moves and counter moves to gain the upper hand. So is Putin a good guy or a bad guy? Putin for some time now has been showing that what he really wants is "World Peace"! Yes, some people believe that when he invaded the Ukraine it will start World War III and some are already calling his actions as such, however that couldn't be further from the truth. The Truth is that Russian and US troops are in the Ukraine liberating the citizens from some of the most vile leaders in the world with their hands in money laundering, drugs, sex trafficking and slavery. Actors in a Play, yes, to keep the Deep State off balance so the job of cleaning the swamp can go on in every nation so that world peace and prosperity can become the "New Normal". Give it another couple of weeks and the Truth will set you Free!

Linda Gale said...

All of the MSM hysteria and beating of war drums, reminds me of the quote attributed to Goering:

“Why, of course, the people don’t want war,” Goering shrugged. “Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece. Naturally, the common people don’t want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood.

“But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship.”

“There is one difference,” [Gilbert] pointed out. “In a democracy the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars.”

“Oh, that is all well and good, [replied Goering] but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country.”

Amy said...

Another great piece, Dad. Well written, informative, and just the right amount of humor.

I know how difficult finding the facts can be on current events, so I really appreciate the work you put in to do so, with sources cited as always!

Rob said...

By their fruits you shall know them.
Putin is making the case more and more everyday that he is an unstable maniac.

What cannot be denied here are the facts that Russia invaded Ukraine unprovoked and is using bully lethal tactics to push their ideology on the world.

NATO is in place because of crazy people like Putin. Putin dislikes NATO because it threatens his bully tactics.

Putin is evil. He is not a lot different than Hitler. The Kremlin is not much different than Nazi Germany.

Yes it's true that Ukraine has been somewhat unstable and has had some problems with nationalism and neo-Nazis but the facts still remain that none of these Ukrainians have went into Russia to attack them and their ideology.

Being pro- Putin is aligning oneself to evil, plain and simple.

Robin Hood said...

Good article Rock and excellent food for thought.
One correction regarding what you said at the top of your article - Czechoslovakia, Poland et al were not part of the Soviet Union, they were part of the Warsaw Pact. The eastern European countries certainly came under the Soviet sphere of influence, but they were seperate countries. Remember the Czech and Hungarian uprisings? Ukraine, however, was part of the Soviet Union so I understand what you're trying to say.

Michael said...


Great post and great analysis.

From my perspective, the United States has been a declining power for a long time. People haven't been unwilling to acknowledge it for any number of reasons.

- We never 'won' the Korean war.
- We never 'won" the Vietnam war.
- I personally never considered the first Persian Gulf war to be a "win" either
- As for the more recent wars, we destroyed Iraq and got ourselves tied down in Afghanistan and Iraq. Again, no "win".

That means our last real military victory was nearly 80 years ago, and that was accomplished with the help of other countries, particularly in Europe.

I think the chickens are coming home to roost, and the result will not be pretty.

Morgan Deane said...

This is a blog called Pure Mormonism, but I only saw two verses in your entire post. 2 Samuel 23:3 and Section 98 of course. That isn't a great ratio and its not very informative for Latter Day Saints, unless maybe they agree with you. Your post was instead some of kind of alt history rant. It is really concerning how many people are willing to give Putin a pass by trying to the muddy the waters about his aggression and his targeted victims.

And you do so without any serious discussion of LDS scripture. At the very least I would think you'd offer some homilies about peace. But even then, a peace that stands by and watches slaughter is not the kind of peace we should want. So I'd find your post wanting.

If you and your readers are interested in something that offers a more systematic command of scriptures and far less tendentious history you can find it here:

Alan Rock Waterman said...

Discussing the causes of a conflict, and cutting through the propaganda, is not "being "pro-Putin and aligning ones' self with evil."

That having been said, you are wrong when you say Putin attacked Ukraine unprovoked. Had you bothered to read the links I provided, you would see that Putin sent planes into Ukraine after Ukraine and the Western nations violated the Minsk agreement. Even then, he has not "attacked Ukraine." Putin's military has not done what America consistently does when it moves in to conquer a foreign country. In spite of what you are hearing from a complicit media, civilians and cities are not being destroyed. The Ukrainian people still have electricity and water, and they are pretty much carrying on with their lives undisturbed. To date, Putin has done little more than take out military installations after first giving personnel time to lay down their arms. The Russian Generals and the Ukraine Generals all know each other. They were educated together and were drinking buddies. There is no attempt to subdue the population. Putin does not want Ukrainians to hate him, and indeed, the reason for the mass evacuations is that Ukraines president Zelensky has threatened to conscript all males 18-60. The Ukrainians are afraid of their own government, that is why they are leaving the cities.

All war is nasty, of course, but all honest reporting reveals that Putin is attempting to neutralize the threat against his country, as well as protect the sovereignty of those living in the Donbas region.

When you call Putin a Madman, you are merely echoing what you have been told by a media and political class that does not want to deal with the realities of the situation. When nothing your enemy does appears to make sense, calling him a madman is your way of ignoring the strategy being employed.

I also call you on your assertion that NATO exists to contain Putin. NATO is illegitimate. The West is trying to corall Russia because Russia has no desire to be part of their New World Order. The ONLY reason Putin has taken action is because Biden and his handlers refused to negotiate in good faith. That good faith negotiation meant ONLY that NATO stop trying to surround and choke off Russia.

This is not a conflict you want to find yourself taking sides for or against. If you wish to demonize Putin (and I will concede there is much about Putin himself that is indefensible), you must also recognize that the United States via the CIA has undermined the democratically controlled nation of Ukraine via a violent coup that installed their own puppets. You can't point out that one side of this conflict is a devil without admitting that the devil on the other side brought this conflict on.

Tulsi Gabbard was correct when she said this all could have been avoided if Biden had taken NATO off the table. Then Biden would have had no reason to attack. For eight years he sat back while Ukraine bombed its own civilian population in Donbas, so protecting that province was not a motive for him. But I submit that the threat of Ukraine's government using Donbas as a place from which NATO could launch missiles surely was.

Had Putin attacked Ukraine unprovoked by the actions of the West, THEN you would have a case. My advice to you, Rob, is to not side with one devil over another.

Alan Rock Waterman said...

Robin Hood,
Thank you for that correction. I lived through all this and I STILL can't always get the players straight!

Alan Rock Waterman said...

Morgan Deane,
Since you can't seem to understand why a blog dealing in Mormonism would address a distinct problem taking place in the last days, I can only assume you skipped my opening paragraphs where I spoke of the prophecies of Jesus regarding how we in this generation would be awash in "lyings and deceptions."

"At the very least," you chide me, "I would think you'd offer some homilies about peace."

You must have forgotten how often I have engaged with you on this topic in the past, Morgan.

For those who do not recognize the name of Morgan Deane, he is an unrepentant war pig whom I have encountered in the comment section of some of my war-themed essays in the past, where I attempted without success to remind him that the entire lesson of the war chapters in the Book of Mormon are there to remind us that WE, God's people, are FORBIDDEN from crossing the borders into another people's land for the purpose of making war. I have argued with Deane, to no avail, pointing out that the Lord tells us in no uncertain terms that His people are NOT TO GO UP INTO BATTLE against ANY nation, kindred, tongue, or people unless He Himself commands it. The Lord also reminds us that this has ALWAYS been what he has conveyed through all of his prophets since ancient times. (D&C 98:32-33.)

Morgan talks of the importance of not standing by and watching slaughter, yet forgets he supported the slaughter of millions of innocents by the U.S. military sent in to subdue them. One only needs to dig up Morgan's prolific body of work to see that he was an avid promoter of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan from the beginning, and he seems to have no regrets that after 20 years and more than a million civilian deaths, we lost both those wars in disgrace. It doesn't seem to have phased Morgan that we went to war to eliminate the Taliban, and 20 years later surrendered our weapons to them without a whimper. You remember the Taliban: those are the savages who are continuing to slaughter people we had been slaughtering, but now the Taliban are finishing up using weapons we left to them.

Like the war-mongering neocons and bloodthirsty lefties he takes his cues from, Deane has simply stopped being troubled by those wars and just latched onto the next one.

Okay, Morgan, I'll take your advice and offer you a homily about peace. Indulge me while I repeat what I have repeated to you again and again ad nauseum in the past: The Lord, in D&C 98 verse 16 COMMANDS US to "proclaim peace and renounce war."

So when are YOU going to start promoting the scriptures?

Rob said...

Um not sure where you get your news from (possibly Russia) but you are blatantly wrong in saying it is Ukraine's and US fault for violating the Minsk agreement. Putin has repeatedly violated international law and UN agreed upon sovereignty of territorial integrity. Putin is and has been violating international law for many years in Ukraine.
Putin's recognizing of the two territories as independent and then sending in Russian troops violates agreed upon UN law that they agreed to uphold. Putin is clearly, by and far, the one who is in violation of international law. No other UN nation agrees with Russians declaration of the two independent states they are claiming. Those disputed and fought over areas comprising what is called the Donbas are Ukrainian territory, not Russian.

Get your facts straight man.

Rob said...

Your accusations NATO of being illigetimate are completely unwarranted also. NATO was set up to protect small nations from the big bad bear of Russia and anyone else threatening them. Tell me this- when Jas NATO ever invaded another country offensively to take it over or annex a state or territory? Never! Has Russia ever done that? Yes, and they continue to do it.

NATO is the very reason why there hasn't been WW3. I'm afraid though that Russia is going to push and push to the point where WW3 happens. At some point, Russia must be dismantled, they are too maniacal to the world and to their own citizens.

Knight said...

For those who are curious, "tendentious" means "expressing or intending to promote a particular cause or point of view, especially a controversial one," according to Google. The opposite of controversial would be anodyne, "not likely to provoke dissent or offense; inoffensive, often deliberately so" (again, Google), so apparently, for a more anodyne and less offensive take on world events, there's the link.

And dang, I thought this was a new reader trying to promote another website, since they didn't seem to see the other blog posts on proclaiming peace and renouncing war, but I stand corrected. I'm still the new one here, since I didn't see his comments in past entries.

Either way, thanks for the two new words!

(And as a P.S., What is "Alt history"? It either happened [i.e. history] or it didn't [i.e. propaganda]. If history doesn't fit the approved narrative, the narrative should be changed, not the history. But if the claim has no basis, it should be relegated to propaganda. At this point, with the fog of war thick across the interwebs, it's going to take some time to parse through and determine for sure which stories are history and which are propaganda. Maybe some can be debunked faster than others [like the "Ghost of Kyiv" video, as discussed in this article from Spain: ], but the rest may take longer. Time, and experience, and careful, ponderous, solemn thoughts may be required to figure this out. And we've only had a week.)

Alan Rock Waterman said...

Rob says, "Not sure where you get your news from..." Well, it's clear where you get yours from, Rob: the CIA-fed, Operation Mockingbird American propaganda networks.

I'm pretty sure I warned you that it was unwise to take sides in this issue, but you have clearly sided with NATO which, as I wrote above USED TO BE legitimate, but now has swelled into a behemoth whose purpose is to surround and intimidate nations that won't play ball. If everything we have been told about Putin was true, we might indeed assume he was a madman and a maniac, as you asserted yesterday. For now, all indications are that he is acting in his own nation's interest. Your claim that "Russia must be dismantled" suggests you favor all-out nuclear war, which would indicate YOU are the maniac and the madman. Or did you have some other way in mind in which a sovereign country can be dismantled? Can you suggest why NATO would have the right to take that action? Was that authority bestowed on NATO by God Himself?

As for your claim that "No other UN nation agrees with Russians declaration of the two independent states they are claiming," since when was UN approval needed for a people to declare their independence? Was there a world body the American colonies should have sought approval before separating themselves from England? Should the Soviet states first looked to the UN before separating themselves from Russia?

The people in the Donbas region separated specifically because they no longer wished to be ruled by a Ukrainian government that violently overthrew the democratically elected one that existed prior to 2014. The side the UN was on was that they should sit down, shut up, and accept their fate. Those Ukrainians stopped being obedient to the newly installed government because they recognized the new president installed by our CIA was illegitimate. Why in the world would you side with government that slaughtered untold numbers of its own people simply for wanting self-rule?

It will not suit you to proclaim "Russia Bad, America Good" in this one, my friend, unless you are suggesting America is correct in not caring that Ukraine has been brutally murdering its own people. I suggest you take a note from the comment made by Knight above, and realize that the fog of war is thick across the interwebs right now. This is the time to calm down, watch, take notes, and remain skeptical. Does the Russian government engage in propaganda? I'm sure it does. But right I'm not hearing anything from that side. All the stories I'm being told are coming from sources we Americans should have long ago realized are not to be trusted.

Eric Kuntz said...

Putin is not a devil or a angel, he is merely an actor. He only does what he is told to do. Zelensky is the 'good' guy and Putin is the 'bad' guy in this play. There are just playing a role. IT'S A MOVIE FOLKS! It's nonsense. WAKE UP OR ELSE!!

13 O that ye would awake; awake from a deep asleep, yea, even from the sleep of hell, and shake off the awful chains by which ye are bound, which are the chains which bind the children of men, that they are carried away captive down to the eternal gulf of misery and woe. 2 Nephi 1

Eric Kuntz said...

from Wikipedia....

"In 2015, Zelenskyy became the star of the television series Servant of the People, where he played the role of the president of Ukraine."


Rob said...

It very much appears to me that you are pro Russian and anti American.
That's fine, it's a free world. Maybe you should go live there and help your friend Putin in his agenda.

Morgan Deane said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Morgan Deane said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Morgan Deane said...

"You must have forgotten how often I have engaged with you on this topic in the past, Morgan."

Based on the links this is not correct.

You called me a warmonger in one your blog posts and ignored my rebuttal here:

Then you and your friends, acting very Christlike, called me a bunch of names in the comment section of another piece. Then they called me more names for literally a month when I walked away from that gutter. lol. I summarized that thread and link to it about half way down here:

Any disinterested observer might conclude that I've engaged with you and you're the one that has largely ignored me. But if you're vaguely referencing the fact that I walked away from meaningless personal insults because I have better things to do, you are correct. You might think an endless debate in the comment section is worthwhile, but I don't. A military analyst is very busy during the first major war in Europe since World War II. (Though you might count the Bosnian civil war.)

Even when finally getting to the point you didn't offer any scriptures, except the one verse my article (that you clearly didn't read), already assessed, and another you already quoted in your main piece.

I didn't use the word systematic in my first post to sound fancy or make Knight look it up. I used it because there are a bunch of scriptures that seem contradictory but aren't when you examine them closely. (Especially using the same methods as historical just war thinkers. I don't have space to explain why but its part of my "prolific writing" that is easy to find on my blog and seen in my article at public square.) Yet judging from your tendency to barely quote scripture, and only when it is convenient to your conspiratorial claims or specifically called out on it, I don't think you know them as well as you claim.

I first noticed that trend when your very polite and pleasant friends said I wasn't following the scriptures, then, when I quoted scriptures, argued I was mistaken, and then, when I explained them, claimed I was a sophist.

During the whole time I quoted scripture and explained them (fairly well I might say), they were calling me names and claiming I didn't know them! Not to mention the only people who seemed warlike on this thread and that, were the angry jerks breathlessly calling me every name in the book because I disagreed with them.

I notice that pattern repeating here. I offer an article that the editor at Real Clear Religion thought was good enough to repost today. And my opponent offered a few paragraphs of snark and name calling with a scripture. But he is obviously the exemplar of peace on this thread.

Plus, notice the irony when Rock claims that I ignore his engagement. But my main complaint about his post was BASED on past engagement.

The biggest thing I learned in my research in historical just war thinkers is that only a systematic assessment of seemingly contradicting scriptures can produce new and better understanding. In short, simply yelling proof texts at each other is insufficient. Attacking the person and ignoring their argument is a classic ad hominem fallacy. But I guess when challenged you need whatever comeback you can muster. And it certainly isn't detailed explication of scriptures to support your point.

So, yeah, I think your lack of scriptures is a fatal weakness. Peace out.

Dave P. said...

Abinadi warned that King Noah would serve as a type and shadow of things to come to pass.

The same continues to happen as people put blind trust in their evil leaders AND nations believing they can do no wrong and "they are strong."

Alan Rock Waterman said...

Rob said, "It very much appears to me that you are pro Russian and anti American."

I wonder what motivates someone to comment on a blog he has not read. I make it very clear in my post that I side with neither the corrupt Russian government nor the corrupt American government, nor with the American government's corrupt puppet state led by a president who obtained office following a violent coup that took out the democratically elected predecessor. If has concluded that I have taken sides in a controversy merely because I explain the root causes of that conflict, I can only conclude that person lacks critical thinking skills.

I can explain to you why a rabid dog will attack when cornered, but that does not make me Pro rabid dog.

Rob said...

Its not hard to ascertain that you lean towards siding with Putin and against America. Anyone can see that. You have a particular disdain for America, American interests, ideology, etc. That's fine. Do us all a favor and go to Russia and live there, be Putin's watchdog.

Alan Rock Waterman said...

Morgan Deane,

I am not responsible for what people other than myself have said to you or about you, nor do I have any recollection of how others responded to you. All I remember is that after weeks and weeks of dialogue with you, it became clear to me that you were incapable of being reasoned with. I believe you are intellectually unreachable and morally repugnant.

As I recall, our initial disagreement stemmed from your unwillingness to recognize that the lessons in the war chapters of the Book of Mormon can be distilled into the following dichotomy:

1. God requires us to vigorously defend ourselves, our families, and our lands.

2. When God's people cross over into the borders of other lands to do battle, they become the aggressors and God withdraws his support from them.

I don't mind your disagreeing with me, Morgan, but your obstreperously hostile attitude toward nations our government has decided to wage war against (always absent a constitutional declaration of war, I might add) long ago exposed you as someone unwilling to engage in civil discourse. You consider warfare to be a virtue, as long as it is your side instigating the war. You dance round and round, twisting scripture to fit your narrative without ever considering that you might possibly EVER be wrong. You defended the Bush/Cheney wars because that was a conservative presidency. Now you support the left in their war to defend a leftist cabal that desires to stifle freedom around the world. You have no fixed principles.

I have read the recent post you linked to above and find you repeating false propaganda and specious arguments in order to promote an aggressive foreign policy. I have indeed given you an insulting label, and here's why: You use specious arguments to defend the killing of innocents in the name of defending other innocents. I can find no scriptural justification for siding with either, but whether you take the side of the neocons on the right, or the neofascists on the left, you make it your mission to support any war the United States government deigns to takes an interest in promoting. In my book that makes you an unrepentant war pig.

I don't wish to offend, but I long ago resolved not to engage with you further. Kindly go and dance with someone else; you have the stench of death on you.

Alan Rock Waterman said...

Rob says, "Its not hard to ascertain that you lean towards siding with Putin and against America. Anyone can see that. You have a particular disdain for America, American interests, ideology, etc."

Okay Rob, I'll call you on that. Let's hear your argument. This blog contains over 230 essays, many of which frequently feature my admiration for America, American interests, and the ideology of America's founders. Not to boast, but in some quarters I'm considered something of a constitutional scholar. I don't come by that because I disdain the constitution, but because I revere it, coupled with an intense interest in the history of America's colonial and revolutionary eras.

So, since you insist it's not hard to ascertain that I lean AGAINST America, Why don't you point to those specific posts that you feel contain evidence of that disdain?

I eagerly await your reasoned argument.

Ted the Deadhead said...

Thank you Brother Waterman, for your insight and wisdom in things pertaining to "our religion" and beliefs. Your explanations make it easy to understand for a humble and simple follower of Jesus Christ as I. It's very hard to find someone to completely agree with today but you are the exception.

Rob said...

All I needed to read is this post. Here-

"There is nothing patriotic about siding with the American political establishment on this; they are in the wrong."

And here-

"The result is that today Ukraine's government is almost as thoroughly corrupt as our own. Ukraine has, for all intents and purposes, become a vassal state of the U.S. government."

And of course here-

"The illegitimate government of Ukraine does not like the people of Donbas. Partly because they're Russians, and partly because they don't wish to be ruled."

Oh yeah, and here-

" As Lew Rockwell reminds us, this is not a desirable outcome, given the fact that the U.S. government is clearly in the wrong here, has had ample opportunity to repent, and the enemy it proposes to go up against has nuclear weapons pointed right at us. "

It's very clear that you are siding with Russia in your post. It's also clear that you believe the Russian lies, that Ukraine is hellbent on destroying Russians and that NATO is an enemy to good. So, it sounds to me like you are indeed anti-American and pro-Russia.

Go live there if you hate America so much and love Russia.

Dave P. said...


Please go watch the movie "WarGames," and report back on what the only winning move is in a situation where both sides are in the wrong and yet capable of annihilating the planet.

The problem here is you're automatically thinking that Rock is "siding with the Russians" simply because America is not wholly innocent either. War is not a sporting event and the "good guys" vs. "bad guys" mentality in war is a romanticized notion programmed into people via popular media and entertainment.

This whole thing has been a case of two things-
1. The American media and government have lied about everything for as long as I can remember. It takes quite a bit of digging to break through the fog and reach out to the truth. The truth will set you free, but before that it will piss you off.
2. Is the Russian media and government also lying about everything? I don't know. However, there is nothing wrong with saying, "I don't have enough information to form an opinion, especially since I'm unaware of what kind of direct reputation these people have first-hand." Seek a second, independent witness.

Always remember, "It is better to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."

Also the words of the hymn, "Who's on the Lord's side, who?" Those who heed God's command to renounce war and proclaim peace, and I certainly don't see either "team" doing that at this point.

Rob said...

We live in a free country with freedom of the press. This means we are free to read what we want, form our own opinions and bias and publish those without fear of imprisonment and fines and danger to ourselves or loved ones. In Russia, this is not the case at all, it is the opposite. Putin and his evil government and those who play the pieces controlling his government create a highly quarellated paradigm of lies and deception. They even lied to their own troops before being ordered into Ukraine to terrorize and kill them.

It's not hard to research and see who is lying and who is telling the truth. Russia has been illegally fighting Ukraine for many many years in attempt to take over and control Ukraine. Ukraine do not want to fight, do not want war. It's all Putin and his evil plans that want war. Zelensky keeps asking for peace, even asking to privately speak with Putin and broker peace. Putin refuses. Putin demands there can be no peace until he has demilitarized Ukraine and instill his pro-Russian government in command. This is entirely not going to happen. Ukraine is a free democracy and this war is really about good versus evil.

The Russian oligarchs are in large part to blame for this whole mess. They have been allowed to capitalize off of conquest and rule of others. It's complete corruption.

If Russia is allowed to take Ukraine then democracy is defeated. At some point, hopefully sooner than later, we come to our ethical senses and fully support Ukraine in its defense which includes sending in troops and deploying our bombers and fighters to pummel Russia and drive them out of Ukraine, including Crimea and the Donbas region. It's time that Russia stops bullying the free world. He is an absolute menace to all that is free and good.

Dave P. said...

Take your last comment and insert any of the following in place of Putin's name:

Fidel Castro
Osama bin Laden
Saddam Hussein
Omar Qaddafi
Bashar Al-assad

It is the same talking points and propaganda that we've been fed for all of those people for the past several decades. People are stirred up into emotional frenzies thinking they have to play the "hero" to defeat the "pure evil" bad guys, only to have resources and lives thrown away as cannon fodder to placate the truly evil behind all of them that leaves all of the countries we stuck our noses into all the worse as a result. And this is all this with a "free" press that the Supreme Court has "ruled" that is free to lie to us without repercussion.

The, "We have to fight them over there so we don't have to fight them over here!" fallacy has shown its fruit: Death and destruction at the hands of countless innocents and blood on the hands of those who thought they were fighting for a righteous cause.

Should you believe this cause is just, by all means, go enlist yourself and your family. Get a first-hand glimpse of just how trustworthy the words of the Gadiantons in "leadership" are like all those who enlisted for Afghanistan and Iraq to get "revenge" for 9/11 and were there for so long their newborn children were old enough to join them before they actually left while ultimately accomplishing nothing.

It need not have happened at all if the country and the church had heeded the Lord's decree. And yet people fall for the same emotional manipulation time and time again because, as you have shown, it works.

Dave P. said...

Pastor Chuck Baldwin's latest column is another good resource on how this whole situation is the chickens coming home to roost as well as being used as just another distraction against us:

Rob said...

And there goes the maniac some on here side with- he just attacked a nuclear power plant in Ukraine. What lies are you going to keep spouting?

Alan Rock Waterman said...

I think I'm beginning to see your problem: you have confused love of country with loyalty to government.

This is evidenced by every single line you quote me saying in your comment at 7:16 am above. Though you smugly appear to think you have successfully used my own words against me, I urge you to read those words again. What you've done is make my point. The wide, gaping whole in your argument was in equating patriotism with love of government, when throughout history the patriots were ALWAYS the ones who stood AGAINST corrupt governments.

The mistake I made was assuming you were familiar with the Book of Mormon. As the proprietor of "Book of Mormon Perspectives" pointed out not long ago, in whatever nation the State exists, there you will find a secret army of Gadiantons diligently working to take control of it. That is the lesson you were expected to absorb from your reading of the scriptures, Rob; that you should be watching for modern equivalents of those Gadiantons working to control our nation. The fact that you have missed that lesson entirely, and are unaware that the governments of the West are currently led evil men antithetical to the patriots who make up the population, is something I find disturbing.

Here is an excerpt you can find at "Book of Mormon Perspectives," quoting from the great American patriot Lysander Spooner:

"All the great governments of the world--those now existing as well as those that have passed away... have been mere bands of robbers, who have associated for purposes of plunder, conquest, and the enslavement of their fellow man. And their laws, as they have called them, have only been such agreements as they have found it necessary to enter into, in order to maintain their organizations, and act together in plundering and enslaving others, and in securing to each his agreed share of the spoils."

The author of the blog extrapolates on Spooner's observation:

"This is interesting language when one considers the workings of the Gadianton Robbers described in the Book of Mormon. It begs the question: What was God really trying to teach us by including these accounts in the text? Why should we be concerned about Gadianton and his band of merry robbers anyway? What do they have to do with the State?"

I would urge you to read that incisive essay if you want to better understand how the NATO/U.S. Alliance is currently taking control and lying to you about their intentions. You can find it here:

So tell me, Rob, did you root for the Swiss patriot William Tell, or did you side with the corrupt tyrant Gessler, who demanded the Swiss people demonstrate their "patriotism" by bowing before his hat placed on a pole in the village square? When you watched the movie "Braveheart" were you cheering for Longshanks while everyone else in the theater recognized that it was the Scots who were the patriots? I wonder if your reading of American history caused you to decide that the king of England across the sea was justified in repeatedly exerting control over the American colonists and attempting to crush their will to be free?

From everything you write in your response to Dave P above, it's obvious that the only information you rely on in your arguments has been provided to you from sources inimical to the truth. I suggest you take Dave's advice and seek a second, independent witness.

If you learn anything from this discussion, Rob, I hope you'll come to realize what most thinking Americans already understand: America is not "the government." America is the PEOPLE and the ideals the founders promoted that were intended to keep those people free.

I was sad to see you got that exactly backwards.

Alan Rock Waterman said...

Rob writes: "And there goes the maniac some on here side with- he just attacked a nuclear power plant in Ukraine. What lies are you going to keep spouting?"

Well, in the first place, this "maniac" you refer to (I assume you are referring to Putin) did not "attack" a nuclear power plant. His army took control of it. No one guarding the plant was killed and there were no casualties. Nor has there been any change in the operation of the plant. Far from being the move of a maniac, that is precisely the calmly strategic move one would expect in this situation: not to leave a region's energy source in the hands of one's enemy.

But set that aside for a moment and let's look at your hysterical reaction. I do believe you are confusing a plant that generates energy with some kind of facility that manufactures or launches nuclear missiles. This is a nuclear POWER plant, Rob. All it does is generate electricity for the homes and businesses nearby. At this point we don't know if the Russians intend to shut off that energy or just leave it alone. So far, that plant is in enemy hands, if you consider the Russians the enemy of the people of that part of Ukraine. What we know, in spite of the propaganda, is that the people living there don't consider Putin to be the enemy. They consider the government of Ukraine their enemy, which it is. That government is the one that has killed an estimated 14,000 Ukrainians, and they don't quite cotton to that sort of thing.

So the Russian army has control of a nuclear power plant. So what? I suggest you calm down and wait for further information, Rob. I would not be surprised if we find out absolutely nothing changes as a result of this plant changing of hands. Putin does not want the Ukrainian people to hate him. Right or wrong, he sees himself as their liberator. As do they.

So as things stand now, little has changed for the Ukrainian people. They still have their electricity and fuel for their cars. In spite of the propaganda, most Ukrainian people are going about their lives pretty much as normal.

What I really want to know, Rob, is where were your crocodile tears when Kiev shut off electricity and water to Crimea? Where was your "save the Ukrainian people" when 48 civilian anti-Maidan protestors were rounded into a union trade house and burned alive while those who tried to escape the fiery hell were beaten and shot? Did you shed even one digital, virtue-signaling tear when the children at Children's Beach at Sagev were purposely bombed by the Ukrainian military using illegal cluster bombs? I bet you didn't. How would you? Your mainstream media keeps you in the dark.

For eight years the U.S. and its allies have been pumping BILLIONS of dollars worth of lethal weapons into Ukraine. For eight years Ukrainians have been waging war WITH THEIR OWN PEOPLE in the East, and for seven years the people of the Donetsk and Luhansk republics have been patiently waiting for Kiev to adhere to the Minsk agreements. Should Russia have waited, say, 20 more years? You know, the amount the U.S. spent killing Afghanis?

Want more? Watch this video:

Or Don't. Because, Rob, you can either become fully informed about what's going on, or you can continue to make a fool of yourself on this forum by spouting your silly, easily refuted blather.

Your choice. Right now you're ahead, because nobody knows your last name or who you are. You may have seen the notification that anonymous posters are not permitted on this forum, so I hope you've enjoyed yourself thus far because after this you're going to have to furnish me with your last name and a picture if you wish to continue. My readers and I deserve to know who we're talking to.

Alan Rock Waterman said...

That's an excellent piece by Chuck Baldwin you linked to, Dave P. Thanks for sharing it.

Ten bucks says Rob won't bother looking at it. Some people just love the darkness.

Rob said...

I don't know where you get your news. All I can say is you must get it from the lying Russians.
For the last 8 years Ukraine has been fighting a war with Russia by proxy. Everyone knows it. International watchdogs have reported a myriad of violations by the Russians in eastern Ukraine over the last 8 years. Russians have repeatedly sent troops, supplies, and weapons to fight war against Ukraine in the Donbas. The backstory here is the Donbas region is run by Russian oligarchs of whom the then president of Ukraine, elected President Viktor Yanukovych (2014) was funneling money to them including his son. It's called "corruption". This guy also was the readon behind the killings of the protesters in Ukraine. He was ousted and in so doing Russia and the corrupt Donbas area along with Belarus went to war with Ukraine.

You have said nothing but Russian propaganda lies.

BTW, my name is Rob Osborn. I live in Idaho, look me up. I font hide behind nothing. I'm here to tell the truth.

Rhone said...

There are two churches only. The first is the church of Satan, which buys up armies and navies, false priests who oppress, and tyrants who reign with blood and horror. The other is the church of Christ. This church is not aggressive, does not promote war, seeks only to defend itself, and looks to God in all things.

Where is God in this conflict? We're told there will be wars and rumors of wars until Christ returns to eradicate all governments. This means that no government is legitimate and will fall before the King of Righteousness. You're on His side or you aren't. Your patriotism will not save you. Your desire to kill the bad guy will not save you. It doesn't matter which government you back, it's still not His side.

Rob said...

And yet our government in this country was set up by God...

Dave P. said...

I direct you to this post on BOM Perspectives that talks about how God has not set up the government in its current, unbelievably corrupt form:

Unknown said...

It's sad we went from a war about Covid to a war about Ukraine. My heart goes out to both the Ukraine's and Russians and hope that dictator Putin gets dethroned

Alan Rock Waterman said...

Thank you for identifying yourself. Please go to this blog's profile page and include your last name there, also providing a photo so that the rest of us can tell whether or not we are conversing with a child.

You will forgive me for assuming a lack of maturity, but the more you comment, the more you continue to astound. Your comment above asserting that the government we presently live under is the same as the one set up by god is jaw-dropping in its ignorance.

The FORM of government we live under may have been inspired by God, but the politicians administering it have been ignoring that righteous form since at least the middle of the 20th century, and in varying degrees for a long time prior. The United States has attacked many nations in my lifetimes in my lifetime, always ignoring the constitutional requirement that any war our nation engages in must be formally declared by congress.

The fact that iron-clad requirement is consistently ignored by every president since Truman is enough to invalidate your claim that God "set up THIS goverment." God did not set up the government currently in power. God Set up a completely different government than this one.

Here is why a declaration of war is an ironclad law: Any war the People of the United States were to be fighting in or paying for must be demanded by the PEOPLE themselves. They make their demands known by appealing to Congress to issue a formal declaration. Once that declaration is voted on and passed, a letter is hand-delivered to the president, who only has power to DIRECT the war; he has no power to instigate it or decide whether to enter into it. It is obvious you have never read Article II section 2 of the constitution, or you would know that no president in the past 80 years has held the position of Commander In Chief, because he only wears that hat AFTER being called up by congress following a declaration of war. THEN he becomes Commander in Chief, not over the people of the United States, but only over the armed forces.

Why does Congress have that power? Because war is a very serious business and since it will ultimately be the people who would end up fighting in such a warn and the people's money spent on it, only the people can direct their representatives to authorize war.

I urge you to take Dave P's advice and avail yourself of what God meant when he gave his CONDITIONAL approval to the form of government we started out with, and how far from that form His people have drifted since then.

You are sorely in need of an education on this matter, Rob, because cheering on wars taking place in ANY country, even from the sidelines as you are doing, promotes the killing of real, actual people. As reader Rhone comments above, it doesn't matter which government you back, your desire to kill the bad guy does not put you in God's good graces.

Rob said...

Who was it that constrained Nephi to slay Laban? Was Laban a "bad guy"?

Rob said...

Dave P,
You are going to have some level of corruption in about any government on this earth, even within the governing of pur church.

Overall, is our government corrupt and evil? No.

Morgan Deane said...

The Jazz are having a horrible night, so I stopped by.

You claim I’m morally “morally repugnant” and “can’t engage in civil discourse.” I’m “unable to be reasoned with,” “intellectually unreachable,” “have no fixed principles,” or am “unable to understand your points.” You do so by using the following phrases which I have never used to describe anyone: “unrepentant war pig,” “Stench of death,” “fascist,” “neocon,” as well as all the implications that I’m too dumb to understand you. This is all from a single post. Then, this is the best, in the same post you call ME “obstreperously hostile” and you don’t “wish to offend.” Lol. Oh, and my daughter walked in, read the post, and even though she grew up in the age of social media she laughed because it was so ridiculously hostile.

Honestly, put yourself in someone else’s shoes. Would YOU find all the above a reasonable post worthy of a rebuttal? (You’re so Christlike you already know this, but that thought experiment might help you relate to a certain maxim about doing unto others as they’d do unto you. There is no exception if you despise their views and think they are a war pig, but a higher command to love your enemies, Matthew 5:44. Oh, and enjoy the irony of someone like ~me~ reminding you of the Sermon on the Mount.)

Before you say that your behavior is in reaction to my horrible, unchanging views (boo hoo, I don’t buy your pathetic rants), even if I’m horrible you might consider the command to turn the other cheek when struck by awful people. �� Plus, this behavior from you isn’t new. The above insults are common and uncalled for no matter how self-righteous you are and how horrible you think I am.

They are also revealing. Consider if one random person used all the above phrases, and the other didn’t. Both people claim to speak of love and Christs’ doctrine concerning war, but you would logically assume, the one that is very, incredibly, demonstrably, uncivil and throwing around insults recklessly would be the one whose words undermine their message. Even if they want nothing but rainbows and gumdrops for the entire world, their utterly atrocious behavior negate their message. Sorry bro, the person who is demonstrably uncivil is you. Before you lob another few dozen personal attacks at me, try and provide specific quotes where I said anything remotely to you like you have to me. I’ll wait. Look through any one of my posts from anywhere. Or, even better, align your peace loving views with peaceful posts

Morgan Deane said...

[part 2] The simple matter is you don’t like my positions on warfare. For most people it’s not a big deal. But you’re so self-righteous it gives you license in your mind to be a horrible human being because you think I’m horrible. Let that irony sink in.

Why don’t you show me, in detail why my arguments are “false propaganda” and “specious.” When you can offer a detailed, scriptural based argument I’ll gladly read it. But you can’t. You’ll rely on dozens of insults as a substitute for logic, clarity, charity, reasoning, and the scriptures.

I don’t bother responding to most of your rants because they aren’t substantive. This paragraph for example is representative of how specious they are: “as long as it is your side instigating the war. You dance round and round, twisting scripture to fit your narrative without ever considering that you might possibly EVER be wrong. You defended the Bush/Cheney wars because that was a conservative presidency. Now you support the left in their war to defend a leftist cabal that desires to stifle freedom around the world. You have no fixed principles.”

Nothing there is accurate. First because you haven't shown any examples of my twisting the scriptures. I would know because you are trying to tell me what I believe, and I tend to know my mind and arguments better than you. You and your friends proudly admit you don’t read my writing so you’re basing your wildly insulting opinions on a few pages here and there over the last decade.

For example, I’m still a conservative, and I’ll admit it’s weird to find so much agreement across the aisle, and some Putin apologists on my side. But the most naked aggression in my lifetime will bring agreement among many people, and make the isolationists do their thing. Also, some of them are impossible. If I’m so incapable of adjusting my position because I’m never wrong, I would at least be FIXED in them. Not both flexible and rigidly fixed at the same time as you argue. That argument sucks and blows.

But when you’re reaching for insults, contradictions will happen. Just don’t expect anyone but the sycophants feeding your ego to fall for it. I’ll leave the fair-minded readers to compare the tone and substance of the posts and see who is really trying to follow Christ, and who is so angry they obviously need Him.

Morgan Deane said...

Good job Rob. Not sure its worth the time but you do you, and for what it is worth you're making good points. Good luck.

Oh, and anyone citing Book of Mormon Perspectives is not credible:

Alan Rock Waterman said...

Rob, I won't be responding to any more of your comments until you first address the arguments brought up in response to your earlier statements. The rhetorical trick you consistently apply on this forum when your arguments are rebutted, (whether by me or others), is to simply ignore what the other party said and move on as if nothing had happened.

Kindly respond to the rebuttals I and others have addressed to your previous statements. If you agree that your earlier positions were erroneous, you should admit it. If, on the other hand, you disagree, please present evidence-based arguments as to why you think the other person had erred. You have been shown again and again how the opinions you profess were based on faulty information, but rather than admit your sources deceived you, you choose to move on as if nothing had happened. So, if you wish to continue the dialogue here, please pick up where the conversation left off. It doesn't do to simply ignore pertinent parts of the discussion and move on by presenting another challenge. Finish the discussion already in progress, THEN bring up a fresh argument.

I'll give you a starting off place. Yesterday you asked Dave P "Overall, is our government corrupt and evil?" and then stated your one word opinion that it is not. Please provide an argument to support that position, because many people would consider that assumption to be unsupported by the evidence. When you throw out something like that and provide no explanation why, it's like walking into someone's house, taking a dump on the carpet, and walking away without explanation.

After you provide an argument to support the thesis you presented to Dave, you can address the many factual errors I pointed out in the comment you made to me. For example, in your opinion were my responses incorrect? Then please explain so that I can make corrections.

That is how intelligent people argue: through the use of reason, logic, and common sense. When you respond by changing the subject, the dialogue is not advanced.

Rob said...

I have brought up several points and they arent addressed. But oh well, it usually goes that way.
As to why American government isn't corrupt and evil. Humm...
Are Americans free? Yes, we can worship how we will, have free speech as we will (proof of this blog) to throw out all kinds of opinions and ideas. We are free to come and go as we will, are relatively free from true gadianton robbers such as you see in Mexico, Latin America, South America. True gadianton robbers are those who literally do corrupt government and society. Their #1 trademark is murder. I can't recall the last time I have seen, in this country, a government leader murdered, his family murdered, etc. Neither have I witnessed any of our top government leaders murdering each other or members of society like you see in Mexico. Another sign of evil and corruption is the absence of Christianity and free Christian worship. Last time I looked we are thriving still in the free worship of Christianity here on America. Evil was always marked in the Book of Mormon by true Christians being murdered, driven from their lands, etc.
You can thus see the opposite of America and true freedom and righteousness in Russia and their actions. Do Russians gave freedoms like we do? Absolutely not! Putin just made it illegal to spread what they call "lies" about their special military operation (war) in Ukraine. You can be jailed up to 15 years for violations of that. That is evil! Let's not stop there though. Can we spread LDS Christianity in Russia like we see here in America? No. In fact right now you cannot proselyte God's true saving religion there. How many LDS temples are there in Russia? None, zero, zilch. And yet, in Ukraine there is a temple there.

Are we invading free democracies around the world? Nope, we don't do that. Has Russia? Yes. What exactly is our role in NATO and in Ukraine? It is to maintain that free countries can grow peacefully without threats by other evil conspiring men! It wasn't Ukraine that selfishly and blatantly invade and attacked Russia. It is Russia that invaded and attacked Ukraine. We have a duty to protect in defense those who are threatened by evil men like Putin.

I could go on and on but there is no real proof that our government is evil and corrupt. If that was the case you would see and hear about it evidenced by mass murders by corrupt leaders. You would see and hear of us invading countries and driving them into the ground, murdering their innocent civilians. You would see us threatening other nations that we will nuke them if they don't capitulate. Funny how you see all those things by Russia though.

So who really is representing good and who is representing evil in Ukraine? Russia sticks out like a sore thumb for being the one representing evil. All their fruits show who they are, what Putin's agenda is.

Alan Rock Waterman said...

My goodness, Rob. It's a wonder you can function at all with your eyes so tightly shut.

Rob said...


Then prove where all these gadianton in our country are killing each other and our citizens. Open your eyes my brother.

Rob said...

Conspiracy theorists are all the same- 911 furthers, flat-earthers, NWO folks, etc, they are all the sane. Offer lots of fictionalized stories but no real proof.

Unknown said...

So much for your argument. Here's the proof.

Rhone said...

Alma 46 and-48 say all that is needed to be said about how actual Christians should view war. Ether 8 says all that is needed to be said about secret combinations aka 'conspiracy fact' in our day. You either believe it or you don't. All I read in these rebuttals are attempts to justify going against what God has plainly stated. Such is the tendency of the natural man. God will not uphold such at the last day.

Rob said...

Putin just may be the equvelant of the ancient Kishkumen.

Telavian said...

This discussion has gotten quite lively!

At heart I am a libertarian however I am not naïve to imagine a war or defense of someone is not justified.

However the fundamental issue is information. Can we trust the news reports, images, or stories when all those things can easily be manipulated? I honestly think the answer is no.

This reminds me of Helaman 4:3-4 where the Lamanites were stirred up to a frenzy because of a misinformation campaign. They eventually went to war however I would imagine the Lamanites who saw through the deceit were ridiculed and mocked much the same way similar people are mocked today.

Zelenskyy has become a folk-hero overnight because of a well crafted media campaign. This entire thing to me seems well orchestrated to push Russia into a corner and get them to start world war 3. When Russia does that then the cause will be "justified". On the global stage though accidents don't happen.

In an abusive relationship who is to blame, the man who beats the woman and children, or the woman who fears for her and her children's lives and kills the man?

Rob said...

If one does a thorough research of the situation in Ukraine from living in the United States, they will grasp a pretty clear and true picture of what's going on.

Zelensky does have the world stage and some of his talks may embellish or over dramify certain situations but in general his speaking is thought provoking to say the least. He basically has put ethics and morality into the crosshairs and now it's up to us to see how we respond. Zelensky has made an absolute pivotal moral point with sanctions and help. If we truly are at war or completely side with thoae who are at war with a country, we shouldn't be giving and help to that enemy country with any trade, money, support. Secondly, if we are in complete support of defending a country by giving them all manner of weapons, our best weapon is manpower, so why would we withhold it from them? A risk of a bigger escalation of war? If we truly call Ukraine an ally, especially by giving them money and weapons, why aren't we willing to fight alongside them?

Call Russia's bluff and send in troops to defend Ukraine. I guarantee you Russia would surrender. They are mostly all talk and no bite, unless you are a smaller nation they can bully around.

It's time America stood up to this once and for all. We know exactly what's going on in Ukraine. We know who the Russian government really is. And we need to stop it now.

Telavian said...

Rob, you are probably right that Russia would back down if we sent in troops. However what if you are wrong?

Ukraine is basically an extension of the United States right now and I can fully understand why Russia wants it gone.

Rob said...

Russia would scurry like cockroaches scrambling for their dark corners in Russia if we went in there right now.
Russia is not winning their war in Ukraine right now against a nation of vastly smaller forces and weaponry.

Had we been able to deploy even 20,000 troops into Ukraine along their borders when Russia started amassing troops they would have never invaded Ukraine.

Telavian said...

Rob, that is a lot of assumptions.
Russia is clearly holding back to see if we or NATO will get involved.

Do you seriously think they are having a hard time against Ukraine?
That idea is silly on a good day.

Rob said...

Russia is definitely having a hard time in Ukraine. They lack supplies, strategy, logistics at a lot of levels, morale is low, and losses are heavier on the Russian side vs. Ukraine. They should of been able to take Kyiv in 2 days. 12 days in and they still have convoy issues getting there. They have taken relatively heavy armor losses in their convoys. Russia, plain and simply, don't know what they are doing.

Good Will said...

Rob says "I guarantee you Russia would surrender." If I were Putin, I would say to NATO: "If you fly ONE plane or send ONE SOLDIER into Russian or Ukraine, I will IMMEDIATELY nuke EVERY CAPITAL CITY in NATO. Try me."

And what, sir, would you do about that? Say "Let's see if he means it. Send in a plane"? And when he follows through on his promise, what are you going to do then? Say "Oops! Why, YOU MEANIE! No more oil money for you!!"?

Your hubris and ignorance are astonishing. Not only have you dismissed ALL the evidence in Putin's favor, but you have gobbled down all the evidence dished out by Ukrainian authorities -- a regime (like Putin's) we KNOW to be corrupt (because they are in bed with Biden, the MSM, the NWO, etc.). I have seen literally DOZENS of examples in just the last two weeks. Ironically, in this circus of clowns, CHINA is beginning to look like the "good guy"! (What a joke!) Yes, Putin's a thug! But you've GOT to realize, Zelensky is no more "authentic" than Obama! (They were BOTH "creations" of the CIA, George Soros, etc.) Practically NO GOVERNMENT on the earth today is "legit." THAT'S WHY Christ has sworn to make "a full end of all nations."

In my opinion, the accusations about the Azov Brigade(?) and neo-Nazis, funded and encouraged by the Zelensky regime to act against eastern Ukrainian Russians, are true. I believe the reports of open, violent conflict for the past seven years are true. (Your glossing over all that merely highlights your bias and ignorance.) I think, in the balance, Putin is RIGHT in doing what he's doing. (Were you against Kennedy in the Cuban missile crisis? Same situation.)

The bottom line is: we have many, many countries with nuclear weapons now. ANY ONE OF THEM can insure that YOU have a very bad day, even a very bad (if not short) life. No just you, but ALL of US. Are you ready to BLOW UP THE WORLD AND KILL ALL OF US to defend Ukraine? If you feel THAT strongly about it, I suggest you go fight (rather than send OTHER PEOPLE to go and die) for your moral principles. If you're not on the very next plane to Ukraine, in fact, then I suggest you should STFU -- you whiney, ignorant, preening, self-righteous, moral hypocrite. (That's only if you DON'T go. If you DO go, then I'd say "God be with you, my brother! Kill only commies and come back in one piece!") It is PERFECTLY within your right to take up moral causes and go wage war in defense of your "friends," as you see fit. I just suggest you make sure they're REALLY your FRIENDS and that THEIR cause is just! (In this case, I wouldn't be too sure of that if I were you.)

Either this cause is worth YOU dying for...or it's not. If it's not, then MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS and STOP trying get US to fight YOUR moral battles for you. There's nothing stopping YOU from doing that yourself.

Andrew Teasdale said...

Rock, you need another update. Yesterday, Victoria Nuland admitted to Congress that there are bio weapons labs in Ukraine. (Else why would the US be worried about Russia capturing them).

Alan Rock Waterman said...

Right you are, Andrew. I need a LOT of updates. Problem is, I'm just too busy with other things right now to add updates that will affirm what everyone who bothers to investigate already knows that what we're being told about the Ukraine situation is complete hogwash.

Nevertheless, I will return here soon, or start another blog post by this weekend. The surprising thing to me about the Victoria Nudland revelations is that instead of only eight US-run and funded biolabs in a country so far from us, there seem to have been more than 30.

For those unfamiliar with these bombshell revelations, check this out. It's not to be missed:

Rob said...

Don't be so easily fooled Alan. Those aren't bioweapon labs. Ridiculous fake news! Those labs are to develop vaccines and monitor deadly pathogens. Such labs are similar to our CDC in helping prevent covid-19 outbreaks and such. From this fact check site-

"The US Department of Defense's Biological Threat Reduction Program works with the Ukrainian government to consolidate and secure pathogens and toxins of security concern in Ukrainian government facilities, while allowing for peaceful research and vaccine development," the statement said.

"We also work with our Ukrainian partners to ensure Ukraine can detect and report outbreaks caused by dangerous pathogens before they pose security or stability threats

"These are public health labs like those of the (US) CDC or the European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control," Lentzos said."

Rob said...

Dave P. said...

Another good one from Pastor Baldwin this week:

Telavian said...

Rob, without a doubt they could be benign centers of peace and happiness on the verge of ushering in an era of unlimited growth and prosperity. Or much more likely they could be doing the work of the united states government that they legally can't on US soil. This is my the Wuhan labs were doing the gain of function research and not a lab around the corner from you.

It really depends on who or what you believe. Misinformation on both sides is rampant however I know the US government has lied to me for my entire life.

They lied about WMD.
They lied about 9/11.
They lied about covid.
They lied about watergate.
They lied about the pentagon bombing.
They lied about obamacare.
They lied about the patriot act.
They lied about the war on drugs.
They lied about the vietnam war.
They lied about CIA involvement with media companies.
They lied about Edward Snowden.
They lied about illegal and immoral medical experiments.

You expect me to believe them now because they said so?

Rob said...

You must hate America. Do you live here? If so, please give us the pleasure and move permanatly to Russia or China. Don't tell me you are one of those 911 truthers. If so I know you are a total crackpot.

Telavian said...

Nothing like ad hominem to show your intellectual prowess.

Rob said...

I am not even going to bother discussing an issue with someone who is a 911 truther. If you aren't then forgive me and we will discuss.

Telavian said...

Red Herring
The red herring fallacy focuses on arguing for an irrelevant topic with the intention of distracting the audience, this usually happens when the orator finds another topic easier to outline. [or they are incapable of defending their arguments]

Dave P. said...

2 Nephi 9:28 - O the vainness, and the frailties, and the foolishness of men! When they are learned they think they are wise, and they hearken not unto the counsel of God, for they set it aside, supposing they know of themselves, wherefore, their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not. And they shall perish.

Alan Rock Waterman said...

Dear Readers,
I have been asked privately by several friends why I have not refuted the inanities posted here by Rob on this forum. Two reasons: 1, I've been too busy, and 2, He has revealed himself to be not worth my time. I can deal with stupid people, but gullible people are a much stranger animal. They cannot be reached no matter how hard one tries. So I have chosen to go the easy route and ignore this guy.

The other question I have been asked by four different people who have called me this past week is "He's obviously a troll, so why don't you just block him?"

That's a good question. Long time readers know that I like to keep a free and open forum for everyone here. However, even though Rob's "arguments" are silly and easily refuted, of late Rob has taken to using ad hominem attacks against other commenters merely for expressing opinions he is not capable of rebutting. Therefore, again I have decided to choose easy. Rob is now blocked from this forum. If necessary, I will moderate all comments, which I understand is an inconvenience to the rest of you, but I don't have much time left on this planet and I don't wish to waste any more of it on someone who shows up only to antagonize everyone else.

Maybe next week I will find time to issue a detailed rebuttal, especially to his absurd assertion that our country's leaders can't possibly be corrupt because they are not yet murdering citizens in the street. (My wife really got a chuckle out of that one.) Meanwhile, many of you have done a bang-up job of responding to him yourselves, obviating the need for me to step in. Nevertheless, if any of you happen to think any of Rob's arguments deserve a response from me, let me know and I will provide a factual rebuttal. (He promotes so many absurd positions that it would take pages to properly respond, and as I said, I just don't have the time to suffer fools right now.)

In the meantime, I hope to have another blog post up by Sunday that will cover a lot of the propaganda Rob has been smugly citing as if it were true. An example is that rather than watch the video I cited in response to Andrew above, Rob somehow thought ignoring the video and responding with a link to a fact-check THAT WAS ALREADY DEBUNKED IN THE VIDEO was the intelligent way to go about it.

And of course we now have proof that politicians from both parties are profiting financially from the war in Ukraine, which gives them a strong incentive to continue to incite rage among the populace in order to keep the conflict alive. We have a word for that: we call it "corruption." So please tune in Sunday for more on how Jesus was indeed prescient in predicting that lies and deceptions would be rampant in our day. Rob is just one among many of our fellow citizens who are delighted to be taken in by these deceivers every single day.

Rob said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
PNW_DPer said...

"...can't possibly be corrupt because they are not yet murdering citizens in the street..." ummm, Lavoy Finnicum, Sam & Vicki Weaver, Branch Davidians, George Floyd (according to BLM - disputed by some conservatives), etc. etc. Ok, maybe the Weavers and the Bracnch Davidians were not actually out in the street when murdered by government goons. And even if Floyd really did die from an overdose, there are plenty of others who died directly from the violence of government agents.

Alan Rock Waterman said...

Right you are, and had I wanted to respond to Rob wildly uninformed screed, I would have used the Weavers and the Branch Davidians as an example on those counts alone showing the US government deliberately murdering their own citizens, if not openly in the streets (which for some reason Rob considers that the litmus test), certainly in rural America, where the powerful could smear their victims as deserving extremists (which none of them actually were.)

I would have added the deliberate bombing of the Murrah Building in Oklahoma, where experts have clearly shown the bombs blew OUTWARD from the inside, not as a result of a Bomb in a Ryder truck parked outside. After his arrest, Timothy Mcveigh told his sister not to worry, that he was in reality a deep cover operative for the FBI and that he would be fine. It's clear McVeigh was the unwitting patsy much like Lee Oswald decades decades previously, and he (along with the mysterious second occupant of the truck witnesses testified seeing with him) was closely tied to the militant Elohim City compound.

That second occupant was clearly the man known as "Andre the German," son of a high ranking German intelligence officer. Andre immediately returned to Germany after the bombing and expressed some surprise that so many innocent children had been killed. It's worth noting that several members at Elohim City were revealed to be undercover FBI assets, including, to everyone's surprise, the leader of the cult himself. The whole compound appears to have been a front to attract people with what the government called "extremist views."

The Murrah Building investigation is still ongoing. As this recent article from the Epoch Times reveals, that whole thing is turning out to be as much an FBI operation as was January 6th and the botched plot to kidnap and kill Governor Gretchen Whitmer. The government seems to be spending an inordinate amount of time infiltrating patriot groups for the express purpose of creating "enemies of the State" in order to enhance its power and paint every critic of government overreach as dangerous "right-wing extremists," when these extremists turn out in almost every case to be government operatives who planned and executed the events.

But we wouldn't expect Rob to know any of this. I don't know anything about him, but he is clearly too young to recall these incidents. And of course, he believes our government is filled only with people who wouldn't think of setting up their fellow citizens. Anyone who thinks otherwise, has to be, by his logic, a kook, or worse, one of those dreaded flat-earthers.

Below is a link to the latest news on the Murrah Building plot. As I'm sure you know, getting government agencies to provide documents that confirm their evil works can take years of FOIA requests (and the resulting lawsuits when those requests are ignored), but eventually the truth seeps out, even if the truth is only revealed long after the participants are dead. Janet Reno, Attorney General at the time the Branch Davidian and Weaver family murders took place, and the person who signed off on those attacks, is 6 years into spending the rest of eternity in hell right now. So that remains some comfort, at least to me.

Michael said...


One small note: the Weaver incident occurred in August 1992 during the George H.W. Bush administration. The attorney general at the time was no other than Bill Barr (who would also be AG at the end of the Trump administration).

I agree that Reno was in charge when the Branch Davidian initial raid occurred in February 1993, the planning most likely occurred during the Bush administration and was simple carried forward into the incoming Clinton administration.

If that demonstrates anything, it's that the Democrats and Republicans are equally likely to support the killing of US citizens on their own soil.

Great work, sir!

PNW_DPer said...


I thought of the Oklahoma bombing after I posted my entry, and though I read about about it several years ago, I didn't really get into all the details that you have shown here.

Did you see the "To The Remnant" post proposing Roger Williams as the one moved on by the Holy Ghost vs. Columbus? I remember you once posted something proposing John Smith possibly being the one - do you recall and could you point to that Blog entry? Might be an interesting comparison.

Alan Rock Waterman said...

Michael, thanks for the correction. I agree there is little difference between parties when it comes to the powerful vs the populists. Both parties believe they are entitled to rule over the people rather than to serve them.

Alan Rock Waterman said...

I did indeed see Adrian's post, and though I have long believed the man referred to in the Book of Mormon was Captain John Smith, I defer to Adrian Larsen's superior intellect in this instance. He appears to have given the matter a lot more thought than I did.

As to where it was I mentioned John Smith: to tell you the truth I didn't know I had ever written about it publicly. Meant to, but never got around to it, so I'm guessing I only made a brief mention somewhere but never fully addressed the issue that we Mormons had pegged the wrong guy. Lucky for me Adrian beat me to it or I would have promoted the wrong colonial founder.

Alan Rock Waterman said...

On the topic of our government acting against its own citizens, I could have probably forgiven Biden of a multitude of sins had he simply done the right thing and freed Leonard Peltier when he had the opportunity. I'm also just as disappointed with Trump, whose own friends petitioned him to commute Assange, but he also declined to see justice done.

Below is a heartbreaking article by HuffPost on Peltier's situation. He must have thought he was so close this time, just to have his hopes dashed forever. Just another case of the Lefties thinking they had voted a good man into office only to find he's just another self-serving politician. Peltier was up for Parole quite a few years ago, but Obama denied Peltier's application for amnesty. Again, the left works tirelessly to help elect someone they believe is "on their side" only to come face to face with the hard truth: these people are not the friends of the people. And then these voters go out and campaign just as hard for the next one.

Rob said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Sharese said...

Thank you so much for this well written informative post! Your work is so valuable. Keep it up.

Amy said...

Epic response to this hypocrite!!! Yes!

JR said...

Remember when Trump asked for the Biden family to be investigated by Ukraine officials....the DemoCommicrats then started Impeachment proceedings over it, screaming he was doing illegal things.....the filthy vile evil politicians could not let Trump expose anything regarding Ukraine because all of Congress, Senate and others in government would be exposed for their illegal both parties.
People need to start connecting the dots and follow the money.
Mitt Romney is a corrupt dictator and a fake Mormon.... remember when he said he doesn't work for the people that elected him? We are ruled by corrupt globalist oligarchs.