Saturday, July 26, 2014

What To Expect When You're Excommunicated

Previously: Who Is Changing The Doctrine?

I have two big announcements to make before this month is over (Well, big for me, anyway.)  The first is that my book is finished and now available at Amazon, and the good news is it's incredibly cheap.

Did I say "cheap"?  I mean "my book is inexpensive."  It lists for Fifteen bucks, but Amazon has it currently discounted. So my loss is your gain. I'd get it now if I were you before the price goes up.

I designed this book partly with your mother-in-law in mind.  If you have friends and loved ones who don't 'get' you, who are convinced that you can't be a faithful member of this church without displaying the requisite deference to modern Church leaders, this book may help those close to you come to understand that Jesus Christ does not require anything like that from members of His church.

At only 160 pages, it's a comparatively easy read (compared to my usual logorrheic postings on this blog). It will be available any day now on Kindle, and if you buy the hardcopy now, you can get the kindle version later for only $2.99 What a deal! So what are you waiting for? Operators are standing by!  Click Here to find this remarkable treasure:

"What To Expect When You're Excommunicated"

Second Big Announcement
Through a series of miraculous occurrences, Connie and I, who normally abide in far off Sacramento, California, have suddenly found ourselves in Utah. We are the grateful recipients of the hospitality of strangers who looked at me and said, "Say, weren't you that groovy looking guy whose photo was in the New York Times?  Please stay with us and partake of our vittles."

So here we are, and I've been invited to participate in the Sunstone Symposium on Saturday August 2nd on the panel discussing "Moderating Mormons in Cyberspace." That panel will convene at 11:00 am Saturday, but I'll be present at the symposium for all three days beginning Thursday, July 31st, so please come up and say hi to me.

I've come to know so many of you online, and I wish there were an opportunity to meet with at least some of you face to face, but alas, because of time constraints and other obligations, pretty much the only chance it looks like I'll have to meet my friends will be at the Symposium that weekend, so if you can't make the entire weekend, I hope you'll at least come for Saturday.  After the program concludes that evening, there will be an informal After-Party Saturday night from 7-11 pm.  The address is 1444 Yale Ave, which is 1050 South in Salt Lake City. Bring along snacks or drinks to share, and let's get acquainted.

Denver Snuffer will be presenting on Saturday at 2:00, and I'm looking forward to meeting him for the first time there, as well as other luminaries I've admired from afar. So being at the Sunstone Symposium is a dream come true for me, as I've always wanted to attend and never had the opportunity, living as we do so far away. And now I'm going to be an actual participant!  Pretty cool.  Pre-registration has been extended until Sunday, July 27th, so if you hurry you can save some money by registering in advance. Here's the registration information:

Sunstone Symposium Registration

And here's a copy of the program:

Sunstone Symposium Program

I wish I could tell you I'll have some of my books with me, but alas, it will take too long to get them shipped here. The Symposium will be over before they even arrive.  The only way I had of getting a copy of my own was to buy one through Amazon Prime last night so I'd have it here in two days.  So I had to pay almost full price for my own book. But at least I'll have one to show.

The book just went on sale yesterday, and this morning I pulled up my account at Createspace, Amazon's printing arm, just to make sure everything was in order, and I saw that I had made my first sale! I can't tell you the feeling of seeing that someone had purchased the first ever copy of my book! I wondered who it was?

After a few minutes, though, I realized it was me. That was the record of the book I had just bought for myself last night.  So my enthusiasm was short-lived. On the other hand, I just earned myself a couple bucks royalty, so maybe I should buy a few more.

Okay, Here's A Third Big Announcement
My new friend Bill Shepard, co-author with Michael Marquardt of the book "Lost Apostles: Forgotten Members of Mormonism's Original Quorum of the Twelve" will be holding a book signing with Mike at Ken Saunders Books, 268 S 200 E in Salt Lake City at 6 Pm this Tuesday.  801-521-3819 is the phone number at the store.  Believe me when I tell you that you need this book! I quoted from it in my own book,and Andrew Hamilton, in his review for the Association of Mormon Letters, calls it "one of the most important works of historical biography in the Joseph Smith Restorationist movement from the last 10 years." I agree, though I'd make that an even dozen years. So if you can, come and meet both the authors (they're also presenting at Sunstone); and I hear Todd Compton and Michael Quinn may both be there also, so I'm going.

Some Further Announcements

Last month after I had already posted my last blog entry, I was interviewed by Paul Duane at K-Talk Radio in Salt Lake City, and also by Heather Clarkson of Mormon Expositor. If you're one of those people who never seems to get enough of hearing me talk (Hi, Mom!), you can access those interviews below.


K-Talk Interview with Paul Duane
The actual interview isn't easy to find on the page. Scroll down to where you see the band that reads "Play in New Window" or "Download."

Mormon Expositor Interview with Heather Clarkson
In this interview Heather delves into my past to get to the real, secret Rock Waterman lurking inside. You'll be astonished! (No you won't.)

And finally, Rob Nielsen has come up with this parody of the famous scene from "A Few Good Men" in response to the current string of purges within the Church:

"You Can't Handle The Truth!"

So, in conclusion, don't forget: 1. Come to the Sunstone Symposium, and 2. Buy my book.

Please buy my book. Connie and I are counting on your purchases to provide us the gas money to get back home to Sacramento. Seriously, it's too hot out here in Zion.

Oh! And when you've finished the book, please leave a smashing review on Amazon. That'll help the book get pulled up and recommended when others do a book search using the search term "Mormon." Click here:

"What To Expect When You're Excommunicated"

Update: I forgot to credit my friend Ron Pedersen who insisted on writing the back cover notes. He calls me "cheeky."

Important Note About Posting Comments:
As announced previously, henceforth all comments posting on this blog only as "Anonymous" will be deleted.

I respect all reader's wishes to post anonymously, and you may continue to do so as long as at the beginning and/or end of your comment you use some type of unique identifiyer so that others can tell you from the hundreds of others posting as "Anonymous." With so many commenting under the name "Anonymous," the conversations have become increasingly difficult to follow.  It has also become obvious that some of those posting anonymously are often among the most uncivil; rather than engage  in intelligent arguments, some of these people tend to get quarrelsome.  A civil argument advances the dialogue; petty and immature attacks on other's views do not.

Please note that if you are concerned about your privacy, the drop-down feature that reads "Name/URL" already keeps you completely anonymous. When you post a moniker using that method, I don't have the ability to track who you are (not that I would want to) and neither does anyone else. So it makes sense to use that feature if you wish to keep your true identity hidden. All you have to do is place whatever username you wish to go by in the "Name" box and ignore the URL part. If you find it necessary to fill in the URL, you can put any link in the URL box you choose, such as Youtube.com, Amazon.com, or even LDS.org

Those with Google, Yahoo, Wordpress, and other accounts can choose to post under those accounts, which helps to lead others to your own blog if you have one. 

That having been said, please join the conversation below.







306 comments:

1 – 200 of 306   Newer›   Newest»
Catsissie said...

If they ever notice me here in the corner of North Sac, I may need it...bet you miss SacTown, just a little? Enjoy Sunstone...

Sander said...

God bless you and Connie, Rock. Good luck on your book and your presentation. You'd hope the citizens of Salt Lake will afford a middle-aged man with a pony tail and a heart-felt smile from out of town--some civility and regard.

Anonymous said...

You're funny, Rock. First you comment on warfare and you have never been a soldier, now you comment on what to expect from an excommunication and you have never been excommunicated. Anyone see a credibility problem trending here?

JT

Anonymous said...

Congratulations!
Awesome news about book and presenting at Sunstone.

No doubts you will do a good presentation at Sunstone.

JRSG in AZ

Alan Rock Waterman said...

JT,
I have never been a soldier as you say, which is why I do not comment on the art of war. I have no experience in it.

I comment upon God's word regarding war, for which I am qualified by having taken the time to investigate it. Interestingly, a great many soldiers have not taken the opportunity to investigate God's word regarding their occupation, which tells me I may be more qualified than many to comment on that facet.

You have not read my book, yet you feel qualified to scoff at what is contained within it. You have already assumed that because I have not yet been excommunicated for apostasy, I cannot possibly have been in communication with many who have.

Once you have read my book you will be in a better position to scoff, if that continues to be your desire.

nobody ever said...

@JT I presume you are a soldier, am I correct to assume this?.

the_mormonion said...

JT, please provide a link to your blog. If you do not have one, then you are in no position to criticize anyone who runs a blog. Anyone see a credibility problem trending here?

nonamefornow said...

--just waiting for payday--

I know there is at least one person in my family now who needs your book.

I hope all goes well at all the symposiums, conferences, etc.

I'm glad you're having, if it can be called such a thing, a bit of a vacation--

:)

I have heard that Utah is very hot--

I know I could not live there, and I am always amazed that people do--

LOL!

I'm still trying to come up with a more permanent name, but it eludes me--

Anonymous said...

@Rock;

I have read the first 2 chapters of your book, and quite honestly I find it to be incoherent and rambling. You offer a few scriptures as evidence, but much of what you say is anecdotal. You use a lot of strawmen as well.

For example, you keep quoting D+C 10:67 as the ultimate definition of what constitutes "the church", yet you fail to define what the savior meant when he said "come unto me". You have based your whole universe on one metaphorical scripture. It is quite obvious that the church means much, much more than this simple phrase. It means all the other things that the Lord revealed to Joseph Smith, like tithing, temples, missionary work, the list goes on. Yet you cite a single scripture to castrate the church leadership and take away their power.

JT

Anonymous said...

@ the_mormonion :

You do not own a church, so I guess you can quit criticizing the church.

A blog is a collection of ideas and a dialog, it is not something that is experienced. Apples and oranges my friend.

JT

37andholding said...

JT, how did you get a copy of Rocks book and read the first two chapters before it was available? Do you work for the MCIA?

37andholding said...

JT,
(Mormon Counter Intelligence Agency)

37andholding said...

And Rock, I await my book, of which I ordered yesterday, so I may read for myself what you have to offer. I am happy for you in your completion of your first published book. I hope you continue on with more.
As for coming to Utah, I, for one, welcome you and pray God's protection on you and Connie as you visit and share your spirit. I hope to meet you this time. ;)

Nate K said...

@ anonymous said

Actually I think the definition used in doctrine and covenants defines what the church of Christ is perfectly. If someone gains faith, repents, and comes unto Christ they are of Christs church.
Yes the way we "come unto Christ" has a variety of interpretations. That is why you should be careful throwing around statements like The Lord revealing "tithing" to Joseph smith. Who told you that God commanded Joseph smith to implement tithing? It certainly wasn't God who told you that. And above that the way the church has twisted the law of tithing (which has never been commanded in this dispensation by God) has ground the faces of the poor.
Tithing has never ever been commanded by God for the poor and needy to pay. Never.

the_mormonion said...

JT,

My post was a facetious attempt to illustrate that it shouldn't matter; as free people we should be able to criticize and evaluate any institution, especially an institution we spend hundreds of billions of dollars a year on with our own tax money.

The idea that one cannot criticize warfare because they've never been a soldier is perhaps the most ridiculous thing I've ever read in this comment section. You don't need to be a part of something to voice an opinion on it. It would be like saying it wouldn't be "credible" to provide commentary on gang violence because the commentator has never been a Blood.

Now, rather than hiding behind this non-argument, why don't you actually produce specific examples of where Rock is in the wrong when it comes to warfare or excommunication and we can have a fruitful discussion about it.

BK said...

JT,

We are told to 'prove all things' before believing them, especially those who call themselves 'prophets'.

I would suggest you 1st back up and prove with facts (based on Christ's teachings) that Joseph Smith even 'was' a true prophet, and that his scriptures were true, and prove that God really revealed anything at all to him.

Anyone can call themselves a prophet, claim to have authority & to have seen Christ or God and start a church and produce scripture, but only the wise 'prove it' before giving them the time of day. (And not by 'warm fuzzies', like people in all religions get, but by proving with facts, reality & proof of real charity)

And even if you think Joseph was a true prophet, his own teachings and scriptures "castrate all church leadership (who came after him) and take away their power," which is so blatant that it's hardly necessary for anyone else to do.

Karen Brown said...

I hope that you will learn from this meeting and be able to share your testimony for those who are becoming discouraged.

Gary Hunt said...

Anonymous JT,

Kipling, in his poem "Charge of the Light Brigade" explains the creed of the soldier.

"Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do and die:"

Kipling was not only a big supporter of British imperialism and wars, he was extremely enthusiastic about it. Because of his enthusiastic support and talent as a writer, in September of 1914, the British government asked him to write propaganda in support of World War I. He accepted this offer. He even encouraged his own son to join the military and fight in World War I.

Kipling's son John died in the First World War, at the Battle of Loos in September 1915. He was only 18 years old. Kipling's sentiments appeared to change after the death of his son. He wrote..."If any question why we died/ Tell them, because our fathers lied."

In 1917, United States Senator Hiram Johnson said... "The first casualty when war comes is truth".
He was referring to lies told by the United States government to get us to enter World War I. In fact the U.S. government hired a public relations firm to write propaganda (lies) in support of World War I. I think it could be honestly stated that most if not all wars are based upon lies.

The qualifications for someone to speak in regards to warfare, especially the "reason why", are not exclusively dependent upon one being a soldier or government official. A person who studies the scriptures; studies actual history (not propagandized history); makes themselves familiar with, and researches current events (sifting out propaganda), is qualified to comment on war.

I went to Amazon and read what you probably read of the first two chapter of Rock's book. I fail to see the "incoherent and rambling" and "lot of strawmen" as you have stated. I'm also scratching my head on the "anecdotal" part. The important thing about anecdotes is the context in which they are used. Will you please point out, specifically, those areas for me?




Mystery Man said...

Damn, can't even make it 3 posts before some emotional midget troll shows up to turn it all about them and derail the discussion. They feed off of the contention they create. It's almost like it's their very purpose, I'd say.

Perhaps he read something here that he recognized as truth, but could not accept. Refusing to accept a truth that might cause us pain or discomfort, is to remain willfully ignorant. Choosing to be in denial is a paradigm defense mechanism. Holding to ones deeply held belief's in the face of (contradictory) new light, Causes great discomfort and stirs ones heart up (in defense) to hostility and anger.


He claims to not comprehend the fact that invading a foreign land and killing innocent civilians, is against God's law. I understand that to be a soldier, you have to believe that what you are doing is honorable and right. They pump them up to the brim with pride and honor, which is then used to motivate them to making any sacrifice, to defend everything that is good and right in the world. I guess you have to be a soldier to understand (or fall for) that one. Some believe that by invading a foreign land and killing people, we are actually defending our liberty and our American way of life. Perhaps he (or someone close to him) went over seas and killed a few people, believing it was the honorable thing, and that they would not be held accountable before the lord. Maybe they will say: "Sorry, Jesus. I was just following orders. I didn't know they were real people, and feel real pain the same as myself and my family." or maybe one might say: "But they are wicked and believe false doctrine, so it was ok to go over and punish them for being unrighteous and ignorant, I was kind of helping you out there, by being the instrument of your punishment".

Now, this hostile, contentious individual wants to argue the definition of the word "Church". But, it's clear he is just angry about another topic and is just trying to attack Rock.

The truth is here all over this blog, for anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear. So, back to discussing this most recent piece. I look forward to it being available on Kindle, as I'm too damn poor to buy a real book! lol

Gary Hunt said...

Rock,

We bought two copies of your book yesterday. I don't know how much in royalties you get for each book but hopefully our contribution will help you buy a gallon or two of gas. This should get you to Grantsville. I don't think it will get you to Wendover. :)

Everyone, I made a typo. I forgot to add the "s" to the end of chapter in first sentence of the last paragraph of my comments to Anonymous FT.

MB said...

I think it's a great time to come out with a book. There should be as much media attention on you as possible when as the church decides whether to ex you and especially if they do.

Sander said...

JT,

Hopefully for your sake and that of your loved ones you're not a member of the US military. The war mongers that contrived to invade the Middle East in the name of US patriotism to the tune of trillions of dollars that we will never be able to repay--spent all the money up front on killing machines with relatively little set aside to care for the damaged human beings that those wars produced.

It's OK if you don't like Rock. No one's going to make you choose his ideas over those of the Church™ PR department. Find someone that you can cheer up, brother.

Alan Rock Waterman said...

Errata:
Those who have bought the book will find that while there is much in there that is appearing for the first time, some portions have been excerpted, adapted, and expanded upon from essays previously posted here here on my blog.

In last month's comment section, eagle-eyed reader Jennifer called me on the use of the word "nonplussed" which I had always THOUGHT meant "calm, assured, and unruffled."

Turns out that nonplussed means pretty much the opposite of that: "a state of utter perplexity." So boy, is my face red, because I included my take on Sister Isom's appearance on Doug Fabrizio's KUER radio show, repeating the use of that word, and of course using it incorrectly. I had not seen Jennifer's gentle correction until the book had already gone to press. (I have already written to her and thanked her privately for the correction.)

So that error will live to haunt me as long as the book is in print, I guess. Just wanted you all to know I'm not stupid, just incredibly ignorant.

Adrian Larsen said...

Just bought my copy, Rock. Look forward to reading it!

Alan Rock Waterman said...

Also, you should know that the version of the book you see in Amazon's "Look Inside" feature is taken from an uncorrected draft that contains several misspellings, excludes the Forward, Table of Contents, page numbering, and a few other opening tidbits, including the disclaimer that the book includes some previously published portions scattered here and there.

Also, those familiar with "Look Inside" will be aware that sample pages are not always presented there by Amazon contiguously; the text often skips a few pages without warning, which would account for why JR found the first two chapters of the book "rambling and incoherent." That's because they were incomplete. For example, Right in the middle of my deconstruction of President Hinckley's statement regarding the Church being all true or a fraud, an entire couple of pages were jumped over.

As far as additional typos, I did find a couple after the book had been submitted for its final printing. Connie noticed I had misspelled "Deuteronomy" (hell, who hasn't misspelled Deuteronomy?) and I noticed that in a footnote referencing my former blog post "Bring Ye All The Tithes Into The Stores" I had inadvertently substituted the word "church" for "stores.

Those two typos were corrected in time for the Kindle version of the book, which should be available in a day or two, but I was too late to correct them in the print edition.

I was also personally chagrined that the Afterword to the book did not format as I would have wished, but that's a minor issue that will probably annoy no one but me.

I invite readers to point out additional flubs they may find, in case I have the opportunity down the road to put out a second edition. Until then, I remain red-faced and in a state of utter perplexity.

Morgan D. said...

Congrats on your book Rock. Since mine came out I've been checking the sales religiously, so I understand the feeling.

You are correct that things like personal experience and degrees aren't necessary for one to comment on warfare or the scriptures. B.H. Roberts for example didn't have any formal education but was excellent at self study. That being said, I wrote my book specifically because there is a lack of qualified commentary on military matters in the BoM, and military matters in general. Much of it is politically driven and lacks historical context and methodological rigor. So degrees and military experience certainly help sharpen the tools used to produce better arguments and communicate your message clearly.

http://www.amazon.com/Bleached-Bones-Wicked-Serpents-Ancient-ebook/dp/B00KE68NA4/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1406514532&sr=8-1&keywords=bleached+bones+and+wicked+serpents

Good luck on your sales! And your new life outside of the church?

Morgan D said...

Congrats on your book Rock. Since mine came out I've been checking the sales religiously, so I understand the feeling.

You are correct that things like personal experience and degrees aren't necessary for one to comment on warfare or the scriptures. B.H. Roberts for example didn't have any formal education but was excellent at self study. That being said, I wrote my book specifically because there is a lack of qualified commentary on military matters in the BoM, and military matters in general. Much of it is politically driven and lacks historical context and methodological rigor. So degrees and military experience certainly help sharpen the tools used to produce better arguments and communicate your message clearly.

http://www.amazon.com/Bleached-Bones-Wicked-Serpents-Ancient-ebook/dp/B00KE68NA4/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1406514532&sr=8-1&keywords=bleached+bones+and+wicked+serpents

Good luck on your sales! And your new life outside of the church?

Alan Rock Waterman said...

Morgan,
I'm very happy to hear of your book.
I'm only aware of two sources on the topic, "Warfare and the Book of Mormon" and "War and Peace In Our Time."

I'll be ordering your book when we return home. I see it's only been out since May. Good luck with your sales.

Anonymous said...

@Morgan D:

I agree with your post. A man can write a book about having a baby, but said book would have no street cred. Then again, Rock seems to know what it means to be a prophet simply by reading books and without experience.

Thank you for your military service. It is easy to make blanket statements about warfare, but when someone has been in the trenches he has a perspective that no book can teach.

JT

Anonymous said...

I'll buy a cpy simply as a thank your for all the education and entertainment you have provided via your amazing blog.

It should however being called: "The Final Comforter: What To Expect When You're Excommunicated"

Ubik in Utah

Jared Stark said...

Alan,

It would seem you're in good company in your non-standard use of nonplussed, although the usage is informal and limited to North America. Rest easy, we're all a bunch of ignoramuses.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/nonplussed

- Jared

Alan Rock Waterman said...

Well that's a relief, Jared. I've spent my entire life using that word incorrectly. Good to know a lot of others harbor an incorrect opinion of its meaning also.

Still, according to the Wiktionary, the wrong definition others attribute to the word is still different than the usage I gave it. Which means I can't even be wrong with the majority.

nonamefornow said...

I think *we all* know who JT is--

he comes on here to waste the time of those who need friendly encouragement, support, information, etc.

He comes on here to remind people that there is a serpent in the garden--

I think he's been here for quite a while; he's had a lot of names. I had one; I changed it, because of things not at all related to this board or the people on it--

I'm in transition now; I hope I can come up with something more significant--

Lately I have been reading on Mormong blogs things like, "all you need is your scriptures; you don't need blogs."

Well, I'll tell you why I come on here. I come here, because there are kind people here who remind me that not everyone who is "LDS" is mean. I have a very dysfunctional ward right now; I've been in wards that are really very good, so I know what I am seeing is what I am seeing. There are many manipulative, self-righteous people in this ward. There are also some real mortal angels--

I come on mortal blogs for fellowship.

Friendship. Rock Waterman has been a friend to more people than he can count.

He's been a friend to my family.

Thanks, Rock, for all you do.

JT is the bully on the playground. I don't know if he can be befriended and lose his antagonism or not. I tried once, and I got bitten. I feel very sorry for him.

nonamefornow said...

typos--

wooop!


Mormong is obviously Mormon.


Mortal (blogs) should be Mormon.

Thank you.

nonamefornow said...

@Gary,

Thank you for the information on Kipling.

WWI was such a scam--

oh well . . .

And, Mystery Man, thank you.

Anonymous said...

It is very interesting to me that you spend such an amount of time on trying to disprove the church. (But then again, you are making money off of it). As one who has been excommunicated in the past, I have personally experienced this. I can tell you....I KNEW PERFECTLY WELL THAT I HAD NOT BEEN LIVING LIKE I SHOULD. I knew the consequences. Yes, it was heartbreaking to be excommunicated, but I knew before hand that I was not living in harmony with the Commandments. It's all about attitude. When I was re baptized, it was the sweetest thing and cleansing thing in my life. How can I even begin to tell someone who hasn't felt it? The love that permeated my soul from above. Yes, in all religions there are things in history that make you raise your eyebrows. Don't believe me? Study it for yourself. However, I'm not here to debate. Just to tell you that through my personal experience, I've had my witness and the only way you will get that witness is to plead and pray earnestly and avoid the spirit of contention. All of this reminds me of Proverbs 6:16-19... These six things doth The Lord hate: yea seven are an abomination unto him. A proud look, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, an heart that devise the wicked imaginations,feet that be swift in running to mischief, a false witness that speakers lies, and he that Soweth discord amount the brethren.
Now, I'm sure you can rip this apart, so go ahead, because, after all, it is your profession.

BK said...

Anonymous 8:55,

I commend you and think it's wonderful that you found the peace of the Gospel that comes to all who repent.

But I think it's vital to remember that those wonderful feelings of repentance come to any and all souls, in any religion, who truly repent and follow Christ, it doesn't mean their church is the 'only' true or 'a' true church.

For it's the Gospel & teachings of Christ alone that are true, and that brings us the Spirit when we live it's principles, it's not because of any fallible men or church membership.

And as far as excommunication goes, though I haven't read Rock's book yet, though I'm going to, I would guess he understands and explores the fact in his book that many people have indeed been excommunicated when they 'knew they were living righteously', in fact living far more righteously then those who excommunicated them.

If I were to take a guess then that is probably one of the major points of his book, and the trials people are made to endure when ex-ed unjustly because of the way they are treated and viewed wrongly by most everyone around them, but we will see.

But from my experience in the church for 50 years, it seems that the more a person truly follows Christ and becomes righteous, the more likely they are to be excommunicated and cast out.

For the Church and it's leaders are clearly 'not' following Christ and those who do follow Christ make the leaders look bad and feel guilty, so they cast them out, especially if they aren't willing to renounce Christ and follow the leaders instead.

But it's all good, because I know now it isn't a true Church with true prophets anyway, and never has been, and it's best to not be encumbered with and influenced & ensnared by the false doctrines of false and conspiring prophets, no matter how charming, smart and nice they may look, act & speak at the pulpit or on camera.

"They can't fool me (anymore) with their ol' sheep's skin."

Lance said...

Rock,
I will be attending Sunstone as well. I look forward to searching you out and saying Hello. So glad to hear you will be presenting on Saturday!

Calleen Bataiff said...

2 Tim 3:1-7:

1 ¶ THIS know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

4 Traitors, heady, high minded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof : from such turn away.

6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,

7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth

I would like to dwell on verse 5:
from such turn away: I keep hearing that we are to stay in the church to help strengthen those humble followers of Christ within the membership with our testimony I find it next to impossible to say anything that has spiritual worth within the confines of any church building and have it understood, more than not if a truth is being taught it is just passed over almost as if a light breeze entered the room, and left again. I strongly feel that there is only one true church and that is the church of the Firstborn and since that church is not of this world there is no value in any earthly organization.

In the JST Matthew:
27 And now I show unto you a parable. Behold, wheresoever the carcass is, there will the eagles be gathered together; so likewise shall mine elect be gathered from the four quarters of the earth.

(Pearl of Great Price | JS-Matthew 1:27)

The carcass spoken of here is today's Mormon church. This describes verse 5 of Timothy 3 that we are to turn away from, however there is truth found in the dead carcass that the eagles are feeding on which are the elect of God.

I've come to understand that a person doesn't have to join with the dead church to be able to feast on the truths still residing there, even if the carcass doesn't recognize those truths any longer.

Then if you go back to Timothy 3:3 you find:
despisers of those that are good,

That also describes the present day Mormon church. Compare that with this:

But behold, the time cometh, saith the Lord, that when ye shall cast out the righteous from among you, then shall ye be ripe for destruction; yea, wo be unto this great city, because of the wickedness and abominations which are in her.

(Book of Mormon | Helaman 13:14)

We can change the word city with the word Mormon Church. Is this not what is happening today within the LDS Church? I have a question. Are all those who are humble followers of Christ, who are feeding from this dead church facing the same fate as Alan? Or is that only for those who are gaining public attention?

Nate said...

@ calleen and BK

Thanks for your comments I felt the Spirit reading them and agree. Do either of you have a testimony of the Book of Mormon or what is your take on it? Just curious.
So yes on the carcass in particular Salt Lake City which will become desolate at a time soon to come. And I agree that the closer one gets to God the more likely they are to be ex-ed. Actually I believe it was Heber J Grant (who also admitted he knew of no one that had seen the Savior since the time of Joseph Smith) who said that he never sought a vision or to see God because he knew that often those who had such experiences ended up leaving the church... Funny how he would think this and not wonder why that would be the case... Anyway thanks for the comments

Alan Rock Waterman said...

Anonymous,
I appreciate your testimony. Like you, I know what it is to have my life out of harmony with the commandments of God, and I also know the sweet peace that comes with God's forgiveness once I had repented.

What I would ask you now, however, is what sin have I been accused of committing? You have not read the book of course, so you would have no way of knowing that I have been asked to resign without being given a reason why.

You accuse me of trying to "disprove the church." I don't even know what that means, but I have not been accused of that by anyone other than you.

I appreciate your testimony, I really do, which is why I have not deleted your comment even though it is my policy to do so when someone posts without any type of identifying moniker, either real or fictional. But I would ask you to follow the Masters instruction and extend me charity before judging me, at least until you can articulate what sin I am accused of committing.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Brighamites unite! said...

I enjoyed the latest interview on K Talk, especially the last segment.

http://radiorecast.com/ktalk/archive/Paul%20Duane/2014%2007-28%20Rock%20Waterman%20and%20Tony%20Toscano.mp3



and JT (or should I say FT?)is anything BUT honest. Just a Contentious instigator looking to yank tails.

Irven Hill said...

@ JT, Little Rock, or whatever other names you use, you aren't being honest either.

You're the guy who prides himself on blindly following leaders, even when you know they are corrupt, as "little rock" claimed a little over a month ago. The guy who's friends with people who have 5 college degrees, speak multiple languages and are qualified as experts on everything known to man. The guy who demands people stop disparaging the church, then says the church is corrupt in the same sentence.

Since you are such an "honest Abe"(actually Abe was a Liar and a scumbag)tell us your real name, since you're a tough guy who tells people in person exactly how he feels. Seems strange that you'd be tougher in person than on a computer where you won't reveal your real identity.

Calleen Bataiff said...

As I was reading the dialog of a guy named Larsen with a 70, I came across this:

Larsen: I am supposed to follow the Holy Ghost, who leads me to Christ, and then Christ leads me to Father. And that the purpose of a prophet on the earth is to bring to my attention the true nature, character, attributes, and perfections of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. And that it is then dependent upon me to develop a relationship with Him, a relationship that should be a father-son relationship that is full of love and light and understanding. That is what I seek. And the prophets—all of the prophets—testify that you need to come unto Christ yourself. So, I understand what you’re saying. But I don’t follow any man. And that includes Thomas S. Monson, and it includes Denver Snuffer. I think that all of them—Joseph Smith, Lehi, Moroni—they, all of the prophets have given us great things. But the point is that we then take those things, and we go develop a personal relationship with the Father. And that’s the only thing that I seek to do. And so, I’m not, I’m not going to surrender blind obedience to anyone on this earth.

70: Nobody asked you to surrender blind obedience, okay? But without a prophet we would be— you want to have the women in here that believe they hold the priesthood, so they’re gonna say it just like you. They’re gonna talk just like you.

Larsen: Right.

70: You have the gays in here that want to get married, they’re gonna talk just like you.

Larsen: Right.

70: Now you tell me which XXX. So you’re gonna tell me they’re all three right because they’re all gonna testify that that holy ghost that told you to do it that way is the same holy ghost that tell them to do it that way. And the same holy ghost that told them—

Larsen: Okay, so the difference—

70: That’s why we have a prophet.

(my opinion: This church has no faith)

Just because a person calls himself a prophet or a group of ppl call a man a prophet doesn't make him a prophet of God.

Just because a person says they have received revelation through the Holy Ghost doesn't mean they have. It's only by the spirit of revelation can a person know the truth of every matter. It doesn't take a man calling himself a prophet that makes that call. This church has no faith.

As far as my testimony goes, I know the Book of Mormon holds the truths of God. I know the Pearl of Great Price also is full of truth. As far as the D&C is concerned, there are a lot of truths, however, after Brigham took over, he saw fit to change a lot of what that book contained to justify his own lusts, and I'm not just talking about the plural wife thing either. So a person needs to prayerfully read that book. There is a lot in it that is not correct.

Ben Waterman said...

I was totally stoked when my first sale happened too. I've only had two...so...well, there's that.

Alan Rock Waterman said...

Dang, Ben, you only sold two books? I recall that I bought one. Who bought the other? I hope it was your father, my brother. If not, I'll get on his case about it.

Alan Rock Waterman said...

To My Readers,
For the second time this year, I've made an executive decision to delete any posts that arrive on this blog from the person who has posted here variously as "AW," "Little Rock," "Friar Tuck," and most recently "JT."

The first time he was banned was because he crossed the line of decency in a comment he made a few months back. After he apologized publicly to the whole group, I welcomed him back in.

But think it's time to bid our hostile friend adieu for good this time. The first day this page went up, he posted a mean-spirited attack under the name Friar Tuck. For some reason the system sent that comment automatically to the spam filter, and I decided I would let it remain there. That's when he decided to change his name to JT and tried again.

And yes, we all knew it was him, as NoNameForNow wisely deduced. The spirit confirmed that to me the moment I saw his first post here as JT.

As I've stated here previously, it was always my intention to allow the comments on this blog to flow freely with no censorship other than deleting the occasional clearly vulgar comment. And although Friar Tuck's entire reason for existence is to get a reaction, in most instances his posts served only to amuse, as others here responded to him with reason, logic, and common sense. He always ended up with egg on his face, but he always came back for more. So for my own selfish reasons I continued to allow him to post here without censure. He amused me, and for a time I know he amused others.

But I have grown weary of his constant contention. I am privileged lately to spend more of my time attempting to live in the light, and our friend Friar Tuck brings nothing to the conversation. There is little light in anything he brings to the table, and I don't care for the way he brings the entire conversation to a stop while others attempt to once again appeal to a sense of reason he so clearly does not possess.

I have been urged by many in private conversations to stop allowing this troll to come on here and ruin the conversation. Since I consider this YOUR forum as well as mine, I feel the time is now to let this brother go and find some other avocation.

And JT/Friar Tuck/Etc, please understand if you attempt to return under yet another pseudonym, I will know your voice, and your comment will be deleted. Go in peace, my brother, but go somewhere other than here. Things of import are being discussed on this forum, and Life is too short to have the conversation here continuously diverted by your pointless interruptions.

Alan Rock Waterman said...

Yesterday I was privileged to make my third appearance on The Paul Duane Show on K-TALK Radio 630 AM. This time, as I am currently in Salt Lake, I was able to be in-studio instead of being interviewed by way of my cell phone from back in Sacramento, where the reception is lousy.

I was fortunate to have sitting in with me Tony Toscano, who was my partner when we were on Morning radio together more than thirty years ago, and Tony brought a lot to the discussion.

As reader Brighamites Unite! has noted above, the interview can now be heard in its entirety by going to this link:

http://www.paulduane.net/2014/07/rock-waterman-what-to-expect-when-youre-excommunicated/

Topics discussed included my newly released book (natch) my testimony of the restored gospel, my feelings about the Christ, and how I feel about the direction the LDS Church has been headed. I also share some concerns about why other believing Saints are remaining in the faith while disavowing support of and participation in the LDS Church of today.

Sander said...

Rock,

Your interview with Paul Duane was perhaps the best I've heard. I appreciated Duane's interest in probing the inner experience that has led you down this path. Tony was a helpful part of the interview. The only thing missing were clueless talk show callers wondering what all the dang fuss is about!

Nice move with our friend, JT. I didn't put two and two together like you and some of the others did but I thought to myself, "We've seen this kind of rancor and orneriness before, haven't we?" Surely there is a place where JT can share his opinions without peeing in the public swimming pool. You'd hope he isn't like this due to PTSD from fighting in one of our recent contrived Middle East wars.

Calleen Bataiff said...

Sanders...

Even if that unfortunate soul were suffering from PTSD, it doesn't make it OK. People with problems or not have to endure consequences for their actions, and either change their behavior or go somewhere else. I have a neighbor suffering from that disorder that is always trying to get in my face and ultimately cause trouble. I'm friendly when I come face to face with the man, however, I avoid him as much as possible. They have demons, to be sure, they are dealing with, and if there were anything I could do to help I would, however, they are set upon their course and have no want to change it. In fact, in the case of my neighbor, he thrives upon it and will take advantage of everybody and everything he can. He is full of hate and has a horrible case of blood lust as he kills every animal around he can make an excuse for. He envies and hates his neighbors for what they possess and will try to destroy their possessions if he thinks he can get away with it.

I'm sorry for these poisoned souls, however, I know the love of God and His healing power and I know if these souls will turn to Him they too can be made whole, but they seem to thrive on hate, contention, and are very self serving.

I'm sorry for the rant. I'm sure not every person suffering from this disorder fits my description, but for those who do, excusing them from the conversation is part of the consequences.

Once again, good job Rock on the radio show. I would love to attend the Symposium, however, I'm stuck feeding and milking cows and goats, and find it very difficult to break away. Hopefully, there will be some way I can read the talks given online.

Thanks again, and the best luck in what you are doing.

Gaybob Spongebath said...

Look who showed up this morning all alone with the same angry accusations in the comment section of the Paul Duane Show:

http://www.paulduane.net/2014/07/rock-waterman-what-to-expect-when-youre-excommunicated/

Nobody Ever said...

He desperately seeks an outlet for his voice, since his attempts here have been frustrated.

If he wants so badly to be heard, he should start his own blog for all those who are incapable of honest reasoning, he could call it UnPure Mormonism.

Some people are VERY insecure of others asking questions, It means they don't have the answer themselves. And recognize that the church has no real answer or they would not fear the impact of one individual over the entire LDS organization.









Leonel D'Ávila said...

I just bought your book on Amazon. Anxious to read.

Your brazilian friend, Leonel Alves.

Sander said...

Calleen,

Sorry to bring up a sore subject for you. I was friends with a guy in our ward who had PTSD from his stint as a Special Forces scout sniper in Afganistan. Shooting folks in the head for George Bush left him really wound up and unstable. He struggled to find and hold down a job. He was a magnet for drugs and alcohol. A stint in a local psyche hospital seemed to help for a while. I don't know if it did any good but I bought him some vitamins once. A tender moment came when I went up with him in fast and testimony meeting one Sunday and we bore our testimonies.

The cows and goats are lucky to have your attention. We'll get to hear or read Rock's Sunstone panel discussion in action by and by. I'd love to be there, too.

Sander said...

Leonel,

Thanks for stopping by. You'll find us a lively, headstrong lot more or less united in our devotion to Jesus Christ and more or less resonating to what Rock is saying.

How are Rock's insights playing out in Brazil? One of the truths that most excites me about Jesus Christ is his genuine, intimate love for every human being, not just the Mormons that work in the COB in Salt Lake.

If you're willing, consider sharing your impressions of Rock's book with us. According to anthropologist, Damon Smith, ('The Book of Mammon') part of how you experience the Church in Brazil probably is the result of the gospel and partly is the result of the ethnocentric, cultural blindness of the folks at the COB.

Anonymous said...

Well today I got excommunicated from the "one true blog" by Rock Waterman that holds the holy computer keys invested by his internet server.

People say to me, if you don't like this blog, go start your own blog, we don't want you on our blog. It is like they were waiting for me to be excommunicated so they could say "serves him right, I hope he rots in hell". As Rock has said, this is not very Christlike.

It's OK, from what I understand Rock received many "personal messages" directing him to excommunicate me. This, of course, is against internet law.

I repented and came unto Rock, but alas, he consigned me to outer darkness. I long for the old blog, before the blog leader became giddy with power what with book deals, radio interviews, newspaper articles.

I do appreciate the fact that Rock took the time to delineate the charges against me. What I want to know, is what did I say that was a falsehood, if I spoke falsely, I want to correct it.

I suppose that if I give some funds to Rock (AKA buy his book) I might be forgiven in time. Seems like these religious type always want your money. I think the problem here is that I did not show Rock the deference he demands. Nowhere do I read on the blog pages where this is necessary.

Alan Rock Waterman said...

I don't think I'll delete that one. It's pretty clever.

But no more. And I mean it.

Seriously, take everyone's advice and start a blog of your own. I promise I'll read it, at least the first couple of posts.

Sander said...

JT,

You seem like a bright person with a quick sense of humor. Why not channel your gifts into something useful? You could write a blog or a book, start a hedge fund or figure out a way to feed more starving kids in Africa.

Trying to expose the Rock Waterman conspiracy for world subversion and domination, however, is a non-starter. Rock has already revealed himself to the world. The Strengthening the Members Committee is already compiling a Mormon STASI file on him. His admirers at headquarters have already put out an ecclesiastical hit on him. Your vitriol hasn't found many admirers here from a fairly wide variety of backgrounds. Believe that Rock's invitation to 'go in peace' is offered in genuine respect for you.

Leonel D'Ávila said...

Sander,

first apologize for my poor english. I'm not fluent in the language and, in general, need help of Google Translator. I have read the writings of the Rock since 2012 when, by chance, found the blog Pure Mormonism. Since then, much of my perception of the gospel has changed.

For a time I wrote a personal blog with topics related to Mormonism and wrote for a website that discusses aspects of LDS doctrine and history that are ignored in a Sunday school lesson (where I published some translations of articles from the Rock and got positive impact). I had the opportunity to read many different things and learn a lot in the process, after meeting sites and blogs as Mormon Stories, Mormon Think, Zo-ma-rah, among others.

Language is still a barrier to the dissemination of content uncorrelated in Brazil. According to recent research, only 5% of Brazilians speak English fluently. Because we are far from the center of radiation of religion, I believe that Mormonism is experienced by Brazilian scored by customs and traditions alien to our culture. Not yet developed anything like a typical Brazilian Mormon culture. We were taught to never questioning the leaders. Doubt is seen as the first sign of apostasy. We are a poorly-finished copy of Salt Lake's mormonism.

Alan Rock Waterman said...

I would like to add something to Lionel's comment below. I think he discovered my blog sometime after I posted "How Corporatism Undermines and Subverts the church of Jesus Christ." He asked me if he could translate it into Portuguese for dissemination among the Saints in Brazil. Of course I granted permission (anyone anywhere has my full permission to share my postings wherever and whenever).

So now you can find that post and others floating out there somewhere in Portuguese, thanks to the efforts of our friend Lionel, and I'm very happy about that. There's a Japanese version out there somewhere too, though I wouldn't have the first clue as to how to find it.

Alan Rock Waterman said...

By the way, I like the way Leonel refers to me as "the Rock."

Eo te amo, my friend.

Sander said...

Leonel,

No need to apologize--your English is way better than my Portuguese. You're a bold soul to translate some of Rock's essays and share them in Brazil. Hopefully you don't get in trouble. One of Rock's or Denver's most important observations is that we're not limited to the pronouncements and exposition of church leaders to have meaningful spiritual experiences. God and Jesus Christ will meet you where you are in the language of your thoughts and dreams. Boa sorte!

Sander said...

Hah! I picked up on the same thing, Rock. :-)

Leonel D'Ávila said...

I was recently in the face of losing some "privileges" because these posts (temple recommend and callings in the Church). To prevent, shut up the activities of my blog ("The Absurd Faith"). I deleted my fanpage on Facebook. I requested the withdrawal of texts from a site that will be legally fired by the Church soon, as a senior member of the board of public affairs confided to me (I am director of public affairs for my stake). I did not have the courage to continue. I do not want to be cause of discord or division. It seems that soon the witch hunt will extend to Brazil, unfortunately.

What attracted me to the Rock that is despite the severity of his criticism against the corporation goes hand in hand with a genuine love for Jesus Christ and the gospel restored by Joseph Smith.

In Christ,

Best regards from Brazil. Greetings to Connie.

37andholding said...

I received my copy of your book, "What to expect...", and have just now finished it. I will leave a review on Amazon as well. The thought that came to my mind was, "Mormonism, then and now in a nutshell". I enjoyed being entertained with your humorous outbursts as well as being informed to a basic understanding of the stuff that makes up this thing called 'mormonism'.
I appreciate your ability to shine forth in your understanding of truth and having the scriptural backing for it. It was well worth the time and $.

Terrestrialatbest said...

Rock is the first person in a church of 15 million to point out that thing that led Lehi astray during his vision of the tree of life was an impressively dressed man. I have read the BOM numerous times, and that never occured to my darkened mind...I have read the first 3 chapters of Rock's book (delivered today) and it is outstanding!

Keep up the great writing and never stop focusing on JESUS.

Bakersfield Mormon

Calleen Bataiff said...

On the Paul Duane Show w/Rock there was mentioned the primary song, "Follow the Prophet", and Paul had his own lyrics to it. My hubby has his as well and I thought I'd share it. It goes like this:

Umpah,umpah,umpah,umpah,
Samuel was a prophet, president Monson too, if you don't believe me we'll excommunicate you
follow the prophet, follow the prophet, follow the prophet he knows the way
Umpah,umpah,umpah,umpah,
Brigham was a prophet, he wore a talisman , he made a lot of money selling the saints his land
follow the prophet, follow the prophet, follow the prophet he knows the way
Umpah,umpah,umpah,umpah,
Callings are important,this is what we say, mine is no exception filling hymn book trays
follow the prophet, follow the prophet, follow the prophet he knows the way
Umpah,umpah,umpah,umpah........

Steven Lester said...

No tyrant can abide laughter at his expense. He fears that more than anything else, and will kill or imprison those who will treat him lightly. It is why the 15-OWG (Old White Guys) are striking out more viciously than ever before, because they see their power fading faster and faster. Arrogance and hubris will be their downfall. Revenge, however hidden by prayerful permission, will create their complete destruction. It is already happening, just as it has throughout the centuries among many cultures. The 15-OWG are in no way immune.

PNW_DPer said...

Steve,
Yea, I found some people cannot abide any humor or laughter about their sins or shortcomings, especially if they do not want to acknowldge them as sins. For myself, sometimes humor is the only way I can deal with my own, and also others, sins.

Nate said...

@ everybody

Thanks for your testimonies and faith to search and question and rely on Christ above men. Please read this article it opened my eyes to some of the things God is doing to prepare the earth for a great work. The people waking up in the "Mormon movement" are such a small piece to the strange act taking place. Love to all

http://www.charismamag.com/spirit/revival/1474-why-isnt-the-american-church-growing

MajJohnButtrick said...

@Calleen

Thank you so much for that eye-opening interpretation of Pearl of Great Price | JS-Matthew 1:27 I truly felt the Spirit hit me between the eyes on that one.

@Rock, I just ordered your book. Knock 'em out at Sunstone.

@All, If you would like to anonymously take the survey I set up, it is here (19 respondents so far): https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/MVCJ8D9

The results thus far can be viewed here:
https://www.surveymonkey.com/results/SM-Q52BLNT8/

Insightful Nana said...

My book came today from Amazon and I'm about to prop myself up in bed and have a good read. Yes...I will leave a review.

Thanks for not accepting JT,(troll's) comments. I don't mind reading comments that don't agree with your point of view or mine, as long as they are constructive dialogue. We are all here to learn and correction can be made in a civil way.

Good luck with your Sunstone presentation. If I can arrange work... I'll see you there.

Anonymous said...

I saw someone post one time about a version of the book of mormon that is easier to read in story format, but I am not sure what it is titled? Can anyone help me out?
Anonymous in AZ

First Edition Facsimile said...

@Anonymous in AZ
In 1980, the church came out with the "Book of Mormon: First Edition Facsimile - Sesquicentennial Edition". It looks like an original BOM, and is not divided into verses. You can get it here: http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?isbn=0877478082&cm_sp=mbc-_-0877478082-_-all
Also, here:
http://www.abebooks.com/book-search/title/book-of-mormon/author/joseph-smith/kw/facsimile-edition/
-MajJohnButtrick

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Alan Rock Waterman said...

It sure is hard to lose a bad penny.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Alfa said...

Rock,
Read your book in one sitting. I suspect the same angels who attended you as you wrote certain portions likewise came to me as I read - Particularly your advice on how to handle the disciplinary council, which seems to come for all who take the Holy Spirit as their guide as surely as death and taxes. I was never bothered by the likely result of being hauled up for discipline (ex'ing) but until now didn't know how I should approach the council itself. I've not been threatened yet, and actually hold a aux presidency calling in my ward at the moment, but I think it's only a matter of time before someone asks my opinion on a subject and I give an unacceptable answer.

Sander said...

Insightful Nana,

You might enjoy Grant Hardy's highly-regarded, 'Book of Mormon, A Reader's Edition'. I've been happy with it.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Book-Mormon-Readers-Edition/dp/025207341X

Far from somehow being part of a sacred text, the Book of Mormon's verses are the result of a non-Mormon publisher in the 1850s trying to make the BoM look more like the Bible so he could sell more copies. Remove the verses and experience the book in a whole new light.

nonamefornow said...

I'm going to go read the reviews; I can purchase the book in (*stopping to count*) 8 days--

nonamefornow said...

@Calleen--

July 28th comment

I read that interview, and it was very disturbing. The man was so patronizing of everyone--

he was so 'push and shove out there and get ahead'--

and I thought, "these are the men who are directing the spiritual climate of the church?"

This man wasn't following any sort of scripture or revelation or anything; it was all about worldly wisdom and a really brutal one at that--

I was probably not surprised, but I was really disappointed--

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Alfa said...

@ Anonymous in AZ August 1, 2014 at 12:52 AM

Michael Cleverly is the guy to contact regarding a BoM laid out like a novel. I have one, and I think it's great. No chapter/verse divisions, no footnotes; just the occasional header, and of course book divisions.

His email address is first name at last name dot com. And as I understand it he's basically giving them away at this point, just asking for inquirers to pay shipping. You can also download the PDF at his website, mormonsbook.org

Jens said...

Calleen,

Your husband is a man after my own heart. Here's my version:

1. I don't claim to be a prophet, so said Brigahm Young,
I'm just a Yankee guesser, on a lower rung.
Brigham fathered many, was a mogul fine.
He built a dandy mansion, serving beer and wine.
Follow the prophet, follow the prophet, follow the prophet he knows the way

3. McConkie was a prophet, by his own admission,
He penned Mormon Doctrine, blinded by ambition.
When it came to stating, what falsehoods he should smother,
He claimed that he knew it, like there was no other.
Follow the prophet, follow the prophet, follow the prophet he knows the way

2. Woodruff was a prophet, prone to telling tales,
He embellished stories, made himself sound swell.
His lasting contribution, sung to this very day
Is the bold assertion, prophets never stray.
Follow the prophet, follow the prophet, follow the prophet he knows the way

me said...

Anxious to hear about the Sunstone Symposium, will there be a transcript or recording available?..

LDS revolution said...

I have jumped around on a few of these "fringe" mormon websites and I am seeing a common trend.
People are quick to point out the problems with current leadership and the ridiculous notion that a prophet can't lead the church astray.
Many think Spencer W Kimball messed up, or Wilford Woodruff. Now it is becoming popular to say Brigham Young started polygamy and messed a bunch of stuff up.
The one interesting thing is how desperately people cling to Joseph Smith and will not consider that he lead the church astray.
Why so quick to throw anyone else under the bus? Most will say, oh I know the Book of Mormon is true, or I know Joseph saw God...
And? That means jack as far as anything else he did. Why not scrutinize him for a while and see where things really fouled up in the restoration

Jens said...

LDS revolution,

Have you had a chance to read Daymon Smith's 'A Cultural History of the Book of Mormon'? It's a long, detailed look at how existing belief systems from Cambellites like Parley Pratt were blended into the restoration taught by Joseph Smith--a process that continues in many forms to this day. Smith would probably agree with you that the restoration hasn't gone according to plan.

http://www.amazon.com/cultural-history-book-mormon-foundation/dp/1482529807/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_z

LDS revolution said...

Jens,

Thanks for the recommendation.
I will have to check it out. My take is from reading Joseph Smith's last talks he was very disturbed and he even taught some false doctrine.
Look at the King Follett discourse and other sermons where the main point of his talk was to convince others that he wasn't a fallen prophet.
He said that if he could "speak the truth" to them, that that was somehow proof that he wasn't a fallen prophet. Most of us know of the infamous talk where he said he had more to boast of than any man and did something that Jesus couldn't do by keeping a church together. Huh?
Anyway it is like people's whole world crumbles at the idea of Joseph Smith committing adultery or making up revelation. Look at the evidence. Couldn't the church have crumbled right at the moment they ex-communicated Oliver Cowdery because he "accused Joseph of adultery". What if Joseph should have been ex-communicated?
Anyway I will look into that book. Thanks

BK said...

LDS revolution,

Yes, I agree, though I believe Joseph was probably innocent of polygamy, but that doesn't mean he was correct in many other things he did or that he was a true prophet or that his scriptures were from God, but I don't believe he was as bad as Brigham Young or those who followed Brigham and those who lead the Church today.

But I agree, most members seem to ignore most things Joseph did & taught that were wrong, and just accept his claims, scriptures & doctrines as true, and don't scrutinize him, even though he proved he was not a true prophet.

me said...

@LDSrevolution

Read the Prices book a time or two before you decide, most of us have pondered this a long time before we arrived at our conclusions.

http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2010/06/why-im-abandoning-polygamy.html

MajJohnButtrick said...

@LDS revolution

Well, the can of worms is open, so I might as well add my 2 cents, though there's much more to say than can be written here. I agree with what "me" said, that "most of us have pondered this a long time before we arrived at our conclusions". We also all have different conclusions. I thought this was so interesting that I created a survey recently to see what everyone else's paradigm was. The way I ask the questions could leave something to be desired, but it's still fascinating. I put the link to the survey in an earlier post (if you'd like to take it). The link to the responses is here, and can be viewed individually or in combination. Be sure to look at the comments and written responses: https://www.surveymonkey.com/results/SM-Q52BLNT8/
My current belief in a nutshell is this:
Joseph Smith was a prophet and the Book of Mormon is the revealed word of God. He was led to inquire of polygamy by those who were missionaries among the Cochranites in Maine (Brigham Young, etc.), and did so. I think he really did see an Angel with a flaming sword who commanded him to practice it. HOWEVER, this was an Angel of Light from Satan, or Satan himself, and Joseph Smith was deceived. This had nearly happened before on September 6, 1842 – Michael the Archangel detects an Angel of Light talking to Joseph Smith on the banks of the Susquehanna River. (D&C 128:20). He was probably allowed to be deceived because of his own pride or hubris. Smith said his ethical rule was, "When the Lord commands, do it", and didn’t realize that he was deceived until approximately three weeks before his death, at the beginning of June in 1844. Joseph Smith discovers the pit he is in, and tries to repent of the matter, and undo it in the church, but cannot undo it before he is killed. The practice is too entrenched among the leadership. Brigham Young was a fierce believer in the (false) doctrine, and was not in Nauvoo at the time of the martyrdom. He “didn’t get the memo”, and disbelieved reports of Joseph Smith’s statements of having been deceived (cooberated by the Nauvoo Stake President and leader of the then presiding High Council - Wm. Marks, and others). The Church was under condemnation for many reasons, not the least of which is because they had not treated the Book of Mormon with sufficient importance (D&C 84:54-57 – in 1832), were not a Zion-like people in their hearts (D&C 105 – in 1834), and the Church would be rejected if they did not complete the Nauvoo temple in time (D&C 124:32 – Jan 19, 1841). The Temple was never fully completed and they were driven out.
Anyway... more than can be put here. We're all on our own personal journey of faith and discovery.

Calleen Bataiff said...

Here are my thoughts this morning:

God wants us to create ties exclusively with Him, making all other ties of no effect. He intends for each of us, individually to receive personal revelation or instruction as to the time and place He wants us to gather, but to do this we need to seek His face to form the association and close friendship required to become the type of people that Zion consists of, and by this association a brotherhood is formed and the powers of heaven are available to us (of course, to be used only in accordance to the will of our Father).

The reason there are so many men claiming the title of the One Mighty & Strong, or in other words prophets, right now is Satan's plan to confuse us and easily dismiss the real prophet when God finally sends His, but by their fruits we can know them. It's important that we stop distracting ourselves with everything else right now. We need to heed God's words that are coming through the current prophet (not Monson) and do as God is instructing us and by what I'm reading from the Las Vegas transcript it isn't that hard. A person's heart just needs to be right, we just have to want it bad enough to be willing to forsake everything else in our lives for this one association with God, and be not only willing, but have a strong desire to do whatever it is He asks of us.

The neat thing about this prophet is that he is not demanding anything, he, like God, is pleading with us to listen and do. Neat stuff!!!

Calleen Bataiff said...

@Jen

Lol!!! I love your rendition of that song!!!!

nonamefornow said...

@LDS Revolution--

I actually believe there was a carefully laid plan to get 'rid' of Joseph and Hyrum and Samuel and William--

I don't doubt that Joseph was going astray; he wasn't strong enough to keep men like Bennett at bay--

and he wasn't strong enough to keep men like Cowdery close--

I think that is a very real possibility, whether it involved polygamy or not.

But the church was a mess, as Buttrick (the major) has said, dominated by Campbellites and Cochranites--

and not following anything the Lord had commanded. It was already a huge quagmire with a prophet who was not really a leader--

but I do believe the plot involved many things.

For one thing, the so-called Follett discourse was given shortly before Smith's death, and everyone who 'took it down' (the scribes) were part of the Campbellites/Cochranites--

it wasn't presented to the public until AFTER Joseph, Hyrum, and Samuel were dead--

it was something like four months in the recording, and we're supposed to believe it was not even a little tampered with, with the original speech deliverer not there to say, "whoa, I didn't say THAT!"?

I can't. Four months? *shaking my head*

William was excommunicated and left--

No, I am sure Joseph Smith made many mistakes, but the obvious thing that anyone who can smell rats can see is that many, many things were conveniently able to be tampered with after Joseph's death, and he (or his brothers) could do nothing; they were dead.

Was Brigham involved with this tremendous conspiracy? I don't know. I wouldn't find it hard to believe when all the facts are laid out, someday, as they will be.

But what I DO know is that the Book of Mormon was completely drowned out by the bible from that time on--

to the point where, now, it is only really possible (for me, anyway, but maybe I'm challenged) to read the book and get the book--

without all the doodads the LDS church has put into it--

it was changed after translation, too--

how much of that was valid? Who knows?

But it's even more obvious that the D&C was in the hands of Campbellites and Cochranites on their way to Utah to be brave and true (*sarcasm*)--and poor and enrich Young and other 'leaders'; good heavens, Orson Pratt, who worked hard to rescue the Book of Mormon in the face of opposition from Young--

had a very impressive "summer" home in St. George.

I can tell you MY ancestors were living in shanties--

sorry about the run-on sentence; the D&C was in the hands of men who had winter homes (sorry; it's hades there in summer, correct? I wouldn't know; I haven't been there) in St. George for many years--

SO many conspiracies, and yes, go ahead and laugh at me. I learned years ago that the easiest place to be laughed at for believing that humans conspire and work evil things behind the curtains--

is in the LDS church--

AH said...

Rock,

Do you get any proceeds from Amazon Unlimited? I went to go purchase your book on Kindle, and it says it's free because I signed up for this new unlimited thingy. Great deal for me, but I'd rather support you than get it for free.

AH

LDS revolution said...

First off Rock, I did not intend to single you out. I read your abandoning polygamy post a couple weeks back. I really appreciate what you are doing to help wake people up.

I actually have read the polygamy argument from every angle. I know full well about the Cochranites. I know the evidence of Brigham Young committing adultery in England. I also know the evidence that William Law was offered to Emma by Joseph and that fits in snugly with section 132 where Emma is commanded to "not partake of that which was offered to her"
To me so much of it was directed at Emma because it was written by Joseph and it was not revelation at all from anyone except Joseph. Just like when he pretended revelation to send men to Toronto to make some cash and we know how that ended up.

He pretended to many revelations and many of the truths received in the Book of Commandments were revelations stolen from his neighbor. Sidney Rigdon and many others (remember in some cases the sections are prefaced that the revelation was given to Joseph and....)

Anyway my point was that most people still have an unhealthy fixation on Joseph Smith when he was just as involved with the narcissism and plotting and greed almost right from the get go and this was all prophecied by Isaiah.
Calleen I felt the spirit in your words. I think the point is that we all ought to be prophets and the reason God planned for all of this is so that at some point "hopefully very soon" He can gather a people that will listen to His voice and not any man's unless that man or woman speaks by the Spirit.
Many people reportedly left the church because Joseph made advances on their wife or daughter and these men were prominent men of God. So many great men knew that Joseph "fell"
I have a testimony that many of the people alive today that think they know and love Joseph would have left the church during the Kirtland period and that many who we have heard of that supposedly "fell away" were actually following God.

Nate said...

@LDS rev

I for one happen to agree with just about everything you said. It was a tough and traumatic experience for me after the spirit told me Joseph Smith fell because I had thought of him as one of the greatest prophets ever. I believe he fell to his carnal desires just as God said it was a possibility and just as so many other men have.
I don't think it is an all important truth to know as long as people place their trust in God and not men. John good to see your comment and that you are doing well. I would have a hard time seeing Joseph duped by an angel with a sword just because even the Savior who had the most difficult command of all and the most important in the garden was not forced upon death. That just seems like such nonsense and I have a hard time thinking that anyone would believe that with God's plan of agency but alas many have...
As far as the mighty and strong one I didn't know a lot of people were making that claim but I do have a testimony that he will be raised up "soon". In my opinion he won't announce himself as anything he will just begin his work and let the prophecies be fulfilled in Gods ways but who knows...

guy said...

While I certainly agree that Joseph was capable of making mistakes, I do NOT believe he was dishonest. He adamantly denied EVER having taught the doctrine of polygamy.

I do not believe he was a liar. People want to excuse him for making an error or mistake, so they can retain their paradigm.

But, he NEVER claimed to have erred or repented. He swore it was all a lie and not from him.

Go read some of his statments, and decide. This is free to read:

http://restorationbookstore.org/jsfp-index.htm



MajJohnButtrick said...

@Nate
This will be a 2 part-er.

Sorry I haven't responded to your e-mail. I have been thinking about your mail, and haven't come to a final conclusion. I think there's a history of Joseph Smith asking for what he shouldn't ask for, and I don't think it's hard to believe that Satan used Joseph Smith's pride and predilection for lust to fool him. I also don't think it's hard to believe that God was unhappy with Joseph and other leaders (Brigham, etc.) and let it go as a way to destroy the church as an organization because of the wickedness.

The following is from a sworn affidavit of Lorenzo Snow, fifth president of the Church. This affidavit was printed in a book authored by Joseph Fielding Smith. Lorenzo Snow is describing a conversation he had in April 1843 where Joseph Smith told him about polygamy:
“He there and then explained to me the doctrine of plurality of wives; he said that the Lord had revealed it unto him, and commanded him to have women sealed to him as wives; that he foresaw the trouble that would follow, and sought to turn away from the commandment; that an angel from heaven then appeared before him with a drawn sword, threatening him with destruction unless he went forward and obeyed the commandment. He further said that my sister Eliza R. Snow had been sealed to him as his wife for time and eternity. He told me that the Lord would open the way, and I should have women sealed to me as wives. This conversation was prolonged, I think one hour or more, in which he told me many important things. I solemnly declare before God and holy angels, and as I hope to come forth in the morning of the resurrection, that the above statement is true.”

MajJohnButtrick said...

@Nate (Continued)

In Jan 1841, about building the Nauvoo temple, after saying they would not be moved out of their place if they did what the Lord asked, the Lord said that essentially if the people did not consecrate their hearts to make it happen, that “instead of blessings, ye, by your own works, bring cursings, wrath, indignation, and judgments upon your own heads, by your follies, and by all your abominations, which you practise before me, saith the Lord." Stake President William Marks (and a guy that hasn't appeared to have ever been untruthful) and head of the Presiding High Council - an organization we don't have now, but was equivalent to the Quorum of the Twelve at the time, relates that “Joseph however, became convinced before his death that he had done wrong; for, about three weeks before his death, I met him one morning in the street, and he said to me, “Bro. Marks, I have something to communicate to you.” We retired to a by place and sat down together, when he said: “We are a ruined people.” I asked “How so?” He said “This doctrine of polygamy, or spiritual wife system, that has been taught and practiced among us will prove our destruction and overthrow. I have been deceived in reference to its practice. It is wrong: it is a curse to mankind and we shall have to leave the United States soon unless it can be put down and its practice stopped in the Church.” Marks said Smith ordered him to go to the high council: “I will have charges preferred against all who practice this doctrine; and I want you to try them by the laws of the Church, and cut them off, if they will not repent, and cease the practice of this doctrine … I will go into the stand and preach against it with all my might, and in this way, we may rid the Church of this damnable heresy.” But Smith was killed shortly after; When Marks related what Smith had said, his testimony “was pronounced false by the Twelve and disbelieved.”

I respect if others have a different opinion, but for me, it's easier to believe that he saw an Angel of Light, and through neglect, fell into sin, than it is to believe that he was just a total liar and a con artist. Joseph's personality was - dare I say - a bit gullible. It seems to me he was swayed by the men around him, and this did not make the Lord happy. It's either he was gullible, saw an Angel of light and thought it was from the Lord, or he was a genious con-man. I don't think we can have it both ways. In any event, what the Lord said in terms of Joseph and his successor (Hyrum) being moved out of their place along with the people of Nauvoo, came to pass.

Nate said...

@ john

Thanks I actually had never seen the account of Joseph saying he was "deceived" with the practice of polygamy. That is very interesting. All I know for sure are the things the Spirit has told me regarding things. I do know Joseph fell. I know that he committed adultery. (Maybe that is because he practiced polygamy against the will of God and this was therefore adulterous). So I could see some of what you are saying to be the truth. I do believe he had a serious desire to please everybody and was therefore susceptible to bending the truth. I read a statement by him where he claimed that in leading the church he did not always receive revelation and that if he did not receive revelation then he just did what he thought and that was "as good as revelation".
This is serious folly and I do know that he was heavily influenced by freemasonry. God has told me that freemasonry is a secret combination and that I should never think on the blood oaths I made in the temple because they put us into bondage.
I feel to praise God that He has forgiven me of the idolatry I practiced before and for His patience in teaching me from day to day and of course I don't claim to know the truth of all things or to even understand every revelation I have been given perfectly. We each just have to love according to God's word given to each of us.
One thing I do believe strongly that JS lied about was in section 124 where he claimed by revelation that if a man is given a commandment by God and then works with all his might to accomplish it and is stopped by his enemies he is justified. (Paraphrasing)
This is a lie and a false doctrine. We know the truth is that if a God gives a command he will always prepare a way for that thing to be accomplished. Enemies will have no power to stop it from being fulfilled.
I believe Joseph was commanded to build up Zion in his life and only his own fall could have stopped him from accomplishing it....

MajJohnButtrick said...

@guy

Yes, I am familiar with the Price's work, and it is a 3rd option to the other two I propose above. I also don't put it past Brigham Young and his cronies. I also wouldn't be too surprised if they murdered Samuel, etc. This used to be my thinking previously. For me anyway, it's more plausible to take the one position where nobody has a dog in the fight - the LDS church or the (formerly) RLDS. I think rather than just being evil and plotting to overthrow, Brigham Young was more likely blinded by ambition, lust, and was too deeply entrenched to admit he was an adulterer along with his "wives", and everyone else who was practicing it. He's one of these guys who believe the end justifies the means, and he chose to disbelieve that Joseph was trying to turn around this false doctrine. Anyway, it was a long time ago, and we may never fully know until the Savior returns, or the "one mighty and strong" turns things around.

LDS revolution said...

@Nate and John

K guys it is why does it have to be either Joseph Smith was a con-man or he wasn't? That is an illogical statement. Why couldn't it be just like David Whitmer suggested that around 1835 joseph lost the Spirit and we can't trust one word he said after that?
Why couldn't he have been great up to a point and then he started fooling around with Fanny Alger and all went to hell after that and he started this idea of polygamy to satisfy his new found addiction? There is plenty of evidence suggesting this could have been the case.
Why couldn't he have become a liar after this? We all have seen people who fall into addictive behavior and they will lie and deceive and do anything for one more "hit" of whatever it is that they are craving.
Sure he may have had plenty of moments just like other addicts where he felt bad and wanted to change and maybe even confided in people but his behavior later in life was just like the delusional and darkened behavior of David and Saul after they had lost the Spirit.
Anyway the truth will all come out but Rock can you take a look and do some careful introspection and ask yourself if you wouldn't rather in your heart have it be Brigham Young's (or anyone else's) wrongdoing besides Joseph smith's that lead to the church's downfall.... And if that happens to be the case perhaps you and others may still have an unhealthy bias in the favor of old Joe.... Maybe not but it is worth asking. After all Joseph Smith was just another dude like you and me that was prone to the same temptations as any other man.
And by the way a lot of men in the church and these forums secretly want polygamy to be true. They deny it and tell their wife that they would never practice it blah blah but they secretly love the idea of getting down with more women and this is the main reason they never even consider that it could be false...

nonamefornow said...

Now wait a minute--

I don't believe it's all black and white about Joseph Smith--

but what about the Book of Mormon?

Are you denying that?

That WAS the reason Joseph Smith was called as a prophet/translator.

The book is against polygamy, against secret combinations--

and is very much a complete and true guide as to how to reach Jesus Christ--

full of redemption and grace--


Maybe he should have stopped after that (Joseph); I personally believe he should have.

I have also received revelation about a number of things, and one of them is to stop reading the bible and read the Book of Mormon.

But--

why were all the Smiths killed or marginalized? Within 2 or 3 months?

And how could those 'Godly' men who remained (ha, ha)--

have been any less worthy of death?

No, there was more rotten than Joseph's behavior--


Yes, polygamy is on the upswing, and it's very disturbing--

very disturbing--


And not many are waking up about the Book of Mormon OR Jesus Christ, and Jesus is the point.

I am pretty radical; I am not even sure Joseph should have organized a church; it's now a huge, Godless corporation--

I think the Church of Jesus Christ is there when people want to come unto Jesus, repent, be baptized, etc.--

It turned into a monster--

But who do you trust; who do you believe.

With Major I agree about what Joseph said to William Marks--

And I don't see any of this as either or with regards to LDS or RLDS--

I think a very simple church would have sufficed; since they couldn't build a real, Zion community, they shouldn't have even tried; it just turned into a beast--

It's been years since I've been to Utah. I went there 6 years ago into the SLC airport, and that was it; I was driving to another state--


the place is insane; it is not sustainable in any way--

I get almost ill just being there; something is very wrong and has been very wrong for a very long time--

When I was a child I sensed something malignant, especially about Brigham Young--

oh well--

I like to think well of John Taylor; Young was exceedingly rude to him--

Guy said...

Yes, we must each arrive at our own conclusions, No one now alive was present. But personally, I'm not buying it.

If you take the position that he had simply errored, you would (based on his words)have to also conclude him to be a liar.

Because he vehemently denied(publicly)that he EVER taught it as a doctrine, nor gave ANYONE permission to live it (as was claimed by those who practiced it), and that it did not come through him.

If it was all just the mistake by a mortal man, then why didn't BY and those that followed him STOP living it after Joseph declared it false doctrine?..

Why would they not listen to the words of the (then) living prophet who denounced it and forbade it publicly from being practiced?

JS knew that if it was allowed to continue, it wold destroy the church. Do you believe that he would (knowingly) go to meet his maker knowing that fact, when all he had to do was to state publicly that it was all a mistake and that he had been "deceived".

You would have to believe him to be the most proud man alive to allow his life's work and all his followers to go down the toilet because he wouldn't admit he made a mistake.

I do have a testimony of the BoM, I simply do not believe it possible for JS to have brought it forth without the help of God himself.

if you allow yourself to believe JS was not an honest person, then how far back does his deceit go?... I do not believe he was a "fallen" prophet.

The church has "backed itself into a corner". If they do not allow people to believe JS was lying, then their claim to uninterrupted chain of authority is severed by BY apostatizing by continuing to live (and demand others follow) a false doctrine.

Even though, they now take the position that it is "not doctrinal".

http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2010/07/why-mormon-history-is-not-what-they-say.html

Calleen Bataiff said...

@ MajJohnButtrick

I have a real problem with that so called incident with an angel and Joseph Smith. Since when is God a God of compulsion? Since when does God force an issue like that in that way? The God I know teaches, and enlightens your understanding, brings joy, and confidence, and speaks peace to your soul.

I have a real problem with everything that comes after the death of Joseph, because Brigham had an agenda, and didn't have a problem adding to and taking away from scripture (ordinances also) including the D&C to satisfy his desires to manipulate the people following him (that also goes for every other man presiding after him). I'm sure there may have been a few honest men that had been brainwashed while growing up in the church, but I'll bet there may have only been one or two.

LDS revolution said...

@Guy and no name

No name you are very very in tune. You are spot on that Joseph should not have joined a church. I actually felt the spirit in a lot of what you said because I have been told many of the same things. Even regarding John Taylor.
Back to my rant when this mighty and strong one comes I do not believe a formal organized church will be started. Joseph smith was commissioned to translate the Book of Mormon , had the direction under John the Baptist to act in the spirit of Elias and that is it. Nothing past the aaronic priesthood.
Yes I have an unshakable testimony of the Book of Mormon. I also have an unshakable testimony that Joseph was a "fallen prophet". brigham young loved joseph smith more than he loved God and carried on with terrible things that Joseph Smith began.
Why so scared of the idea that Joseph fell? Yes he denied what he was doing. He was lying. Very simple. He was the kid with chocolate all over his face that said he didn't steal the cookies and eat them. He lied and lied and lied and it started when he became "president" on April 6th.
He knew he was not supposed to start acting like he was a great high priest but he began loving the power. Look at the Morley house in 1831 when he started ordaining high priests and tell me something wasn't wrong there.
Where does it talk about ordaining people as high priests in anywhere but the doctrine and covenants? The Book of Mormon in alma 13 talks about people taking the high priesthood upon themselves but guess what? It was not under the hands of men. It was under the hands of angels and by the voice of God. joseph started teaching that anyone claiming to be ordained by angels could not be trusted. This is because he didn't want anyone thinking it was a possibility! Do you think the mighty and strong one will be called and ordained outside of the false authority of any church? You better believe it. You can be ordained at the hands of angels as well if you will wake up to the possibility and begin striving for it.

Calleen Bataiff said...

As I was reading Denver Snuffer's "Cutting Down the Tree of Life to Build a Wooden Bridge", it struck me that the LDS Church is still suffering from the cursings God place upon them if they didn't finish the Nauvoo Temple in time.

48 For instead of blessings, ye, by your own works, bring cursings, wrath, indignation, and judgments upon your own heads, by your follies, and by all your abominations, which you practise before me, saith the Lord.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 124:48)

They keep putting up absolutes such as polygamy, blacks in the priesthood, women in the priesthood, and same sex sealings in the temple, just to be slapped down and bow to the social trends enforced by the government in order to keep their money. Money and power has been more important to them than what they believe God wants, and it's been happening since at least Brigham Young. Mammon is their God!!!

MajJohnButtrick said...

@Calleen
With all due respect (and I really do respect you - you've opened my eyes to a couple of things), you must not have read my post very well. I agree with you. What I believe happened, and again, it's only my paradigm, is that Joseph Smith was a prophet, he translated the Book of Mormon. He was weak and did some stuff he shouldn't have, and was unduly influenced by men around him. There are several witnesses that say he said he had multiple visitations by an angel including the last where it weilded a flaming sword. OK. I don't believe God works that way either. So, either he is lying, or he is telling the truth. I am saying that Joseph confided to a very truthful man, William Marks, and it was reported by others, that he said he was decieved with regards to Polygamy. Since that revelation came from that supposed angel, we have to assume the angel deceived him. How can that be? If it was an Angel of Light, i.e. Satan in disguise. I believe in conspiracies, but that seems to be a huge one for everyone to swear that he said he had that visitation afterwards...not only in Utah, but others who never went with BY, when he didn't. So, Let's take him at his word for a minute... he had the visitation, AND he was deceived.
@Guy
I think he started to be fooled back in approximately 1834 or maybe as late as 1841. If this theory is right, I'm saying he practiced polygamy, and was afraid (justifiably so) of what it would do to the church, so he preached against it publically, while practicing it privately. More and more of the leadership got involved, led in large part by Brigham Young. By the time Joseph realized he had been deceived, he and Nauvoo was under intense pressure. The Quorum of the Twelve were all out campaigning for him all over the U.S. He sent for all of the Quorum of the Twelve to return immediately, and couldn't acknowledge publically what was going on. He was arrested and killed before anything could be done.

This is the condensed version of my view. I'll put in a short timeline and a few other things here for your consideration. I'm not trying to argue with anyone here, but want you to understand my view of things:

MajJohnButtrick said...

• We can infer that approximately 1834 Joseph Smith must have had the “angel with the flaming sword” vision according to the testimony of Mary Rollins Lightner.
• Possibly as early as 1837, IF Joseph Smith was married to Fanny Alger (disputed), this would be his first plural marriage. It could have been a sexual dalliance.
• April 1840 is when Nauvoo is started in earnest.
• April 5, 1841 – Joseph marries Louisa Beaman, perhaps his first plural wife.
• September 6, 1842 – Michael the Archangel detects an Angel of Light talking to Joseph Smith on the banks of the Susquehanna River. (D&C 128:20)
• February 9, 1843 – Joseph receives revelation on detecting Angels of Light (D&C 129)
• October, 1843 – Joseph, as both Prophet and Mayor, angrily took to the streets of Nauvoo and threatened to prosecute any who were “preaching, teaching, or practicing the doctrine of plurality of wives” and further warning all citizens that they are forbidden from engaging in it.
• March 26, 1844 – Joseph calls the “Last Charge” meeting wherein he confers all of the keys of the Priesthood to the 12, and says his enemies may kill him, and that he “is going to rest a while”.
• April 7, 1844 – Joseph delivers the "King Follett Discourse" at the funeral of Brother King Follett.
• April 18, 1844 – Believing dissidents were plotting against his life, Smith excommunicated them.
• Approximately June 1, 1844 – Stake President William Marks relates that Joseph said that he (Joseph) had been deceived regarding plural marriage, and it is wrong. He orders Marks to go to the High Counsel and cut off all practitioners if they won’t repent. When Marks related what Smith had said, his testimony “was pronounced false by the Twelve and disbelieved.”
• June 7, 1844 – The first and only issue of the Nauvoo Expositor is published.
• June 16, 1844 – Joseph delivers his last public discourse, a discourse on the plurality of Gods
• June 10, 1844 Hyrum Smith tells Nauvoo City Council that the “1843 revelation pertains to ancient polygamy, not to modern times…”
• June 20, 1844 – Joseph writes an emergency letter to the “apostles to return to Nauvoo immediately”
• June 22, 1844 – Joseph and Hyrum flee.
• June 23, 1844 – Joseph and Hyrum return.

MajJohnButtrick said...

• From the “True Latter-Day Saints Herald” (Reorganized newspaper) Vol 1, Issue 1: “Joseph Smith repented of his connection with this doctrine, and said that it was of the devil. He caused the revelation on that subject to be burned, and when he voluntarily came to Nauvoo and resigned himself into the arms of his enemies, he said that he was going to Carthage to die. At that time he also said that, if it had not been for that accursed spiritual wife doctrine, he would not have come to that. By his conduct at that time he proved the sincerity of his repentance, and of his profession as a prophet.”
• June 23, 1844 – William Clayton’s diary shows “just before the prophet returned to Emma [that night], he told his secretary to burn the Council of Fifty's minutes—directing his attention to destroying the written evidence of polygamy."
• June 23, 1844 – While Emma and Joseph were alone in their Mansion House bedroom, Joseph Smith burned the original manuscript of the 1843 polygamy revelation (date of the revelation per Brigham Young?)…Smith “told her that the doctrine and practice of Polygamy was going to ruin the Church” and then he burned the revelation…
• June 23, 1844 – Joseph and Hyrum ride to Carthage to stand trial for inciting a riot. Once the Smiths were in custody, the charges were increased to treason against Illinois.
• June 27, 1844 – Joseph and Hyrum Smith are murdered (martyred).
• August 8, 1844 – A meeting is held in which Sidney and Brigham both speak to the saints.

MajJohnButtrick said...

• Brigham Young told a general conference that “Joseph was worn out with it, but as to his denying any such thing I never knew that he denied the doctrine of polygamy.” Young stated: “Some have said that he did, but I do not believe he ever did.” Young could not deny all these testimonies that Smith’s last days were spent repenting of polygamy. “The testimony of Emma Smith and Marks was easy to discount because of their long opposition to polygamy. Nevertheless there was similar evidence from such polygamy advocates as William Clayton, Stephen Markham, Heber C. Kimball, and Joseph F. Smith’s ‘many’ faithful informants in Utah. This is the context in which Brigham Young claimed the prophet did not have ’one particle of light in him’ ”during his final days because he was denouncing the immoral practice of polygamy that Joseph claimed would destroy the Lord's restored Church (Quinn, p. 146-48).
• Joseph Smith’s journals were doctored ex post facto. Elder Charles Wandell worked in LDS Church Historian's office. Upon reading the history published by the LDS church, he said: “I notice these interpolations because having been employed (myself) in the Historian’s office at Nauvoo by Doctor Richards, and employed, too, in 1845 in compiling this very autobiography, I know that after Joseph’s death his memoir was “doctored” to suit the new order of things, and this, too, by the direct order of Brigham Young to Doctor Richards and systematically by Richards.” (RLDS History of the Church 4:97)
• Statement by Gordon B. Hinckley. He tried the sweep it under the rug diversion technique of saying “It’s behind us”, “that was a long time ago”, “let’s look forward”, etc., but finally said to Larry King “I do not think it is doctrinal”. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAsNMWwRXvs&list=PL_vCCKo1KyQV4AUFdYfGc_amQu9yb8ov2 at time mark 14:43

LDS revolution said...

I liked that timeline. And I liked how you said Fanny Alger could have been a "dalliance" Funny.
Ok so think about it. Joseph begins getting more and more power and he noticing people will believe and do just about anything he says. He can get away with anything because he is the "president".
Again when is that word found in scripture besides Doctrine and Covenants? People have deified him and he can't get enough. He makes himself Mayor, Governor, Captain of the gaurd, general. (I'm not sure on all of those but you get it) then he says, "this isn't quite enough I think I will run for President of the United States".
Things are looking pretty good and he has conned everyone into thinking that he translated the Egyptian Papyri, not having a clue there would be scientists that would decipher that his literal translation was not a translation at all. Then he is working on the Kinderhook plates and all is going pretty well, then he is like, "Dang why don't I just have these guys anoint me to be king of the earth?"
Amazingly his followers do it even to his own astonishment. One of them says, "well I thought Jesus was supposed to be King of the earth." Joseph Smith says, "well didn't I already say that I can do more than Jesus? I already said that I kept a church together better than Him..."
So maybe, just maybe there is something to what MajJohnB is saying that he felt bad and wanted to repent, and Brigham Young thought this meant Joseph lost the spirit at the end. Is this not the behavior of an extreme narcissist?
Seriously now can none of you consider that he fell? The reason there was a "succession crises" is because there was no succession. God said in Doctrine and Covenants that if Joseph fell He would appoint another in his stead. This appointment didn't go to Brigham or James Strang or anyone. It will go to the mighty and strong one who will replace the one who tried to steady the ark. The one who fell as a shaft of lightning. That my friends was no other than Joseph Smith himself.

Nate said...

Wow. I am actually glad you posted all of that. Something to think about. I do believe that the aaronic priesthood has been alive and well in more than one of the LDS offshoots. And I am very grateful that God used Joseph to translate the Book of Mormon.
John I think if Joseph was spiritually in a place where he could believe a false revelation than that pretty much equates to being "fallen". Just a thought.
Think of the damage polygamy has done to countless lives starting all the way back with hagaar. Terrible terrible abomination. I have often thought that Warren Jeff's was not living too far off from some of the early saints and it is quite disgusting.

MajJohnButtrick said...

Believe me, under this theory, I'm not letting Joseph off of the hook for the wickedness practiced. I think the Lord hit it on the head in D&C 124:48 "ye, by your own works, bring cursings, wrath, indignation, and judgments upon your own heads, by your follies, and by all your abominations, which you practice before me, saith the Lord". It does however, in my mind, explain how things transpired a little better. I can see it as an evolution of wickedness because of pride and carnal desires. It is nice to think that he voluntarily went back to Carthage (and there are numerous testimonies stating he knew what he was in for) as a way to try to - in some way - atone for those sins. Net net, I don't think the LDS Church has any more claim on exclusivity than any other offshoot of the restoration. So, I hope the authority is still here in some measure, but the bottom line for me is that we all need to cleanse our inner vessel and draw closer to the Savior.

Calleen Bataiff said...

@MajJohnButtrick

I have often wondered if Joseph Smith had been deceived. He wasn't infallible at his own admission, and money seemed to be a very important factor to him, however when you're living in Babylon how can one function without it. It's also true that the people around him had influence over his decisions. I'll say it now as I've said it before, one has to be very prayerful while reading the D&C. There are truths there, but you can't take it at face value.

I also have a problem with all of church history because it has been tampered with. Who knows what actually happened.

I believe that Joseph accomplished the mission God sent him to do and that was to set up the foundations. Maybe it was just to bring forth the BoM. I believe that God instructed him on a lot of things because I believe these things needed to be known by the humble followers of Christ in the last days, just like it is throughout the Bible. I also believe that God is in control of all things and that everything is exactly the way it needs to be for bringing forth His purposes today. We just need to connect with Him and rely solely upon Him.

Calleen Bataiff said...

@MajJohnButtrick

Thank you for all the info. There is a lot there I wasn't aware of.

Nate said...

@ john

Thanks brother I felt the spirit as I read your thought that Joseph went back willingly to try and atone for his sins. Dang that brings some comfort to my soul that is hard to explain but I appreciate everyone's efforts as we each try to come unto Christ.
Kind of reminds me of Judas trying to repent and either hanging himself or jumping off a cliff. I am certainly not equating the two but I have felt sorry for Judas in the past just a tad. Maybe others have too I don't know but I really now have a testimony that Joseph felt remorse before he died. Thanks again John

Jens said...

Calleen,

There was one heady moment when it looked like we might get some serious insight into Church™ history. When Leonard Arrington was the church historian a project was initiated to create a new history of the church. Teams went into the archives and started opening boxes that had been sealed for a hundred years. The material was so odd and disturbing to some in power, however, that the project was shut down and Arrington put out to pasture. Did they find evidence that Brigham, not Joseph, instituted polygamy? Who knows. Some of the initial research made it out into the world in the form of papers and book projects published independently, although I'm not familiar enough with it to know what.

BK said...

Maj John,

I have read that quote 'supposedly' by Joseph, many times and I believe it can be interpreted different ways. If Joseph really said it, I believe Joseph was saying he was deceived by those around him who were living polygamy on the sly and that he was stating that the false principle of polygamy was being taught and lived secretly despite all he tried to do to stop it.

I don't believe it is at all an admission by Joseph that he was involved in polygamy himself, he was just sorry he didn't catch on sooner to those living it and preaching it and he may have felt responsible for not doing more sooner to suppress it.

And as for the ridiculous made up story about an angel trying to force Joseph to live polygamy, Joseph was way to smart to fall for such an angel. He knew God doesn't work that way, he understood agency and he knew that even if an angel from God or an angel from the devil came teaching something 'contrary' to what Christ taught (like polygamy), then he/you would know it was false and he/we shouldn't heed it. Joseph taught that over & over, so it would have been ridiculous to think he would have fallen for such an angel.

But later polygamists leaders and members didn't understand such things and so it sounds just like the kind of story they would make up to get people to believe Joseph lived polygamy.

I realize Joseph was very gullible, and wanted too much to please and be liked, as we see in all the wicked men he picked to be leaders of the Church and that he was very slow at seeing and doing something about their evils.

But the angel story is something Joseph was even way to smart to fall for, despite his other weaknesses.

He was even too smart to fall for polygamy, for even though I don't believe he was a true prophet or really called by God to do anything, he at least believed in Christ and understood how Christ taught against polygamy. Joseph even taught against polygamy in his Book of Mormon he wrote.

So I don't believe he did fall for polygamy, though he was slow to reign the problem in, for probably many reasons.

I don't believe anymore that Joseph really saw God or that he ever had gold plates or any true calling from God. For when you understand what a true Prophet is really like, Joseph did not prove himself righteous or wise enough, as we can see in the scriptures he wrote (BoM & D&C & BoA) and in the things he did in the Church he started.

Above all, there was nothing that God needed restoring that had been lost, and Joseph wasn't prophet material to even be worthy of such visitations or gold plates, or to expect true followers of Christ to follow him, for he didn't pass Christ's test of true discipleship.

The more you take an honest look into the Book of Mormon the more it shows Joseph just wrote it, with help from either other people or other writings.

BK said...

Maj. John,

I also must say that I don't understand how or why you would believe a single word from any polygamists, especially in regards to Joseph, and especially quotes by wicked men like Brigham, Lorenzo and any other church leaders who supported BY.

They all lost total credibility by their dark deeds. Such men & women would of course say whatever necessary to make people believe Joseph lived or tried to repent from polygamy, they had alot at stake to protect and cover up.

maj said...

@BK
I understand your position. I hear what you are saying. I don't think the idea or statements that Joseph attempted to repent of polygamy, serve either the polygamists or the reorganizationalists. This is an orphan theory with no one comfortable to claim it as their own, therefore the statements seem to have a certain veracity to them. At least I feel they do. This whole thread took a turn (and I really didn't mean to hijack it) when explaining to new contributor to the thread that we all have different opinions and have drawn different conclusions. At the end of the day where does that leave us? It leaves us working out our salvation with God and Christ individually, where it should leave us.

MajJohnButtrick said...

Ugh... too fast on the enter key again... that should be me MajJohn Buttrick above.

MajJohnButtrick said...

@BK
I should have stated in my reply that for me, the Book of Mormon being written with the aid of the books View of the Hebrews, The Late War, and The First Book of Napoleon is a non-starter for me. I personally don't think this is the case after looking at it/them. I'm trying to pick through the poo to find the pony. I don't think it's just a pile of poo. However, I respect if you do.

Alfa said...

@MajJohnButtrick

Thank you for providing a very interesting and well considered perspective on the issue of polygamy. I'm unsure at the moment whether or not it provides the answers to my questions on the subject, but good questions are worth more than answers in my experience. You've given me a lot to think about, so thanks again.

Alfa said...

@MajJohnButtrick

Thank you for providing a very interesting and well considered perspective on the issue of polygamy. I'm unsure at the moment whether or not it provides the answers to my questions on the subject, but good questions are worth more than answers in my experience. You've given me a lot to think about, so thanks again.

nonamefornow said...

Well, all of this--


Major, I'll have to pick through that VERY slowly, point by point (it's the ADD!) LOL!

I am undecided about whether or not Joseph was 'fallen' or not, but then I am not convinced he ever 'lived' polygamy--

One thing I can't find evidence for is a 'closeness' between BY and Joseph Smith--

IF Joseph fell it was all the prophecies that went on and on and the empire-building.

But I pretty much stake my life on the Book of Mormon, and I believe that was his principle mission.


Unfortunately for a lot of this, I believe there is something to 'sealing'. But not all the multiple wives stuff; that is STUFF and reprehensible. I've had experiences that are undeniable (no angels of light)--

about sealings--

and baptisms for the dead. Where things went crazy was adding all the other 'stuff'.


As I said yesterday the so-called King Follet discourage was delivered in April and not presented to the public in any form.

Joseph was murdered in June. In August it was finally presented to the public and everyone involved in taking down the discourse was friendly to at least the Campbellite doctrine, if not the Cochranites as well.


THAT is suspicious to me. THAT is the discourse which justifies polygamy in many respects--

and eternal progression. Something I, as a Mormon, took for granted for decades but no longer do.

Nothing in the Book of Mormon about it--

or the degrees of glory (another area where I think Joseph tripped and fell or at least stumbled)--


and then you make the temples 'secret' (we were always 'sacred')--

and some people can go in, and others can't--

a close friend of mine had a close family member who was an adulterer who was a temple worker--

but . . . many good people can't go in--

That bothered me as a child, but I accepted the whole program and moved on to become almost a compulsive temple attender, even though the endowment always made me weary, no matter HOW hard I tried--

I would always feel I had earned a badge when I got through one--

YAY! Do I get a treat now?

YOU know?

But when someone dies, anything can be said about them, especially if *you* kill off two of their brothers and send another brother away.

Why does nobody else find that suspicious.

The temples and the degrees of glory and the focus on rites and works--


almost negate the central message of the Book of Mormon, which is grace and redemption through Jesus Christ.

And polygamy is roundly condemned in it (in more than one place, one very subtly)--

So, no wonder the early leaders after Joseph Smith tried to cover up The Book of Mormon with the bible; the bible can shore up so many false beliefs--


I know that somehow those who reject Jesus Christ will have their own hell of some sort, but I don't believe in the kingdoms of glory anymore.

Anything that copies anything in the world isn't right--

Yes, I know there is a kingdom of God found in the Book of Mormon--

but the castes, classes, etc. only lead to pride and destruction.

TBC

nonamefornow said...

The Book of Mormon warned about secret things, and then there were all those temples, where more wives were being sealed to a man--

*shudder*

BY started the whole "get married in the temple" bit--

I was married with no windows. None in the temple. Surrounded by elderly relatives while my adorable nieces waited outside--

Drab. No emotion. Only thing right about it was the man I married; I did an endowment session beforehand; that is what 'faithful' saints did 40 years ago--

mercy!

Then we travelled miles and miles to have a reception in a church cultural hall--

yup, no windows.

My husband has promised me a real wedding on a mountainside someday, because, no, I did not really get married.

I got sealed, and the church figured out a way to make that please the government.

So, fallen prophet?

I think people need to look at definitions; what is 'fallen'?

People fall every day, every way--

But I think Joseph should have done very little after bringing the Book of Mormon--

and look at the fruits. BYU (*gag*; I'm about ready to throw my diploma away)--

Everything died out there. It died.

Mormons became warmongers. They became money grubbers. They lived in desert poverty and didn't learn how to steward the land.

And they murdered people violently for 'blood atonement'; two of my ancestors alone.

I am always shocked and amazed when somewhere where I live finds out I spent some time (just for college) in Utah and quite a few years (as a child) in another part of the intermountain west--

and they say, "hey, that's a cool place"

What's cool about it, besides mountains that have snow on them?

Oh, they must like skiing--

My parents and grandparents rarely went to the temple--

we weren't near one--

Another set of grandparents was even farther away.

And now--

It's not a place to pray, even for those who can get in--

Anyone else remember the decades of temple police who came up and said, "don't pray now"--if they saw your head bowed in the Celestial room--


good heavens, what *we* put up with trying to be peculiar--

without the Book of Mormon we are merely another Christian sect with temples--

and a lot of pressure to conform to American middle class values.

And those old men from Brigham on up; what did they do?

Really nothing. Except squish people--

Did Joseph need some serious repentance before he died?

Probably very much so--

But why were they all killed if there wasn't also something more nefarious going on?

Calleen Bataiff said...

Really guys, aren't all these considerations a huge distraction? Isn't what Joseph, Brigham, etc., etc. did irrelevant? Everyone needs to stop cluttering their minds with this stuff get on with the business at hand and find the will of God through personal revelation.

For me I find the same thing with what's goings on in the "church" today. I've come to an understanding concerning it and now I'm ready to move on,(although I'm fascinated watching them stubble, and wonder how is it they can stubble with so much info right there in front of them). It could be a willful blindness, because I know there are faithful saints pointing out truths and warnings all the time. It could be that they just don't care and are just spouting rhetoric to keep their ppl in line, or they are truly deluded:

God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

(New Testament | 2 Thessalonians 2:11)

Hopefully everyone here can come to a prayerful conclusion as the these things and get on with finding what God wants of them today. Nothing else matters.

Love all you guys and hoping everyone can get on the same page with God.

nonamefornow said...

oh, a little (I hope) p.s.--


Apparently, and I can't document this, so don't quote me OR chastize me (:))

Joseph Smith's son who was old enough to see things said:

--his father was often, frequently in jail

--when he wasn't in jail he was home with is family; he slept in a room with a guard and Emma


I scratch my head. Brigham spent a LOT of time up in Maine with the Cochranites, I mean, a LOT of time--

he wasn't where anyone could keep an eye on him--

he was never in jail

Joseph was in jail much of the time, and when he wasn't he did have a guard, at night--

when did he have time for extramarital anythings?

I think a lot of things were changed after he died, as to what the history was--

yes, he got full of himself in Nauvoo; yes, we was influenced by the wrong men and turned away the right ones--

yes, he fell regularly--

but his life was quite squished--

Calleen Bataiff said...

@nonamefellow

Kudos!!!!

Nate said...

@ no name for now

Have you considered perhaps that the masons came after the smiths for divulging secrets?

I am totally with you on the kingdoms of glory. The bible does not teach it even in Corinthians 15. Paul clearly is talking about terrestrial (mortal earthly bodies) and celestial (heavenly) bodies.
The word telestial comes from nowhere but the reason the 3 degrees resonates with people is because in many religions there are 3 degrees or types of people and it is actually a masonic teaching taken from gnostic teachings where they believe in 1. Pneumatics 2. Psychics 3. Hylics
If you look up those three categories pneumatics are the spiritual and highest, psychics are honorable rule followers etc and hylics fit in perfectly with the telestial.
Also Buddhism teachings along these lines with different names and so there is truth in breaking us into three groups (here on earth) but all Christ teaches is either wheat or tares or sheep or goats. Book of Mormon clearly states there are only two churches and sheep are sheep.
The cool thing is no where ever does God teach that sheep can become goats or vice versa. Paul clearly teaches predestination and even joseph smith didn't change the word.
This in no way takes away agency it is just a certainty that Christ's sheep are numbered and He won't lose any.
Anyway the Doctrine and Covenants is full of masonic teachings and so much Masonry was mixed into the church it is perverted. The Salt Lake temple is basically a lodge with all of the symbols etc
As far as sealing goes each human being has one perfect counterpart that we loved and cherished before this earth and we were promised to be sealed to them again with the redemption.
Funny how the LDS church teaches that the ordinance has to be sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise so they admit this does not take place when the couple is first married.
Also in my opinion there is such a thing as unified consciousness with your spouse and probably more than your spouse but some type of real sealing is done.
Check out when Jesus groaned within Himself when Mary cried. I believe they were sealed. (Mary Magdalene)

@calleen

I agree that there are better topics to discuss but I think it is good for people to see different possibilities and to know there is more than one view on the subject. Also I know you have the spirit so you won't take offense to this but I was surprised that you would call anyone "our prophet"
My meaning is that I would not call anyone my prophet or my master or father except God. Maybe that was a statement that I am taking to mean more than it did but just a thought.

BK said...

Nate,

I appreciate your thoughts on the 3 degrees. I believe Joseph made that up, for it's different then what Christ said and doesn't make sense even.

Christ talked about 2 types, the righteous and the unrighteous, meaning those deceived to support evil or evil people VS. the righteous, those who have charity and can discern evil and not fall for it.

I believe Joseph got it right when he said that those with charity can't be deceived (at least not for long) by falsehoods and false prophets, etc., for they are living Christ's laws and can easily see when others don't, thus they can see through false prophets.

In the next life I believe everyone will eventually learn the error of their ways and repent and make things up to those they sinned against in this life, and then they will be with their family members forever, though that doesn't mean everyone earns the same eternal blessings or 'Godhood'.

I believe Godhood (Eternal Life) is for those who gained Charity in this life. But repentant souls will be around those who have 'Eternal Life'.

Christ seemed to teach there are only 2 places, heaven & hell. Hell being a learning place, where we learn to choose right from wrong, if we refused to learn it here. I believe eventually everyone will understand all things & become righteous and be released into one great heaven, though eternal rewards may be different on a personal level, a few of our family members & friends will be God's and most probably not, for charity is very rare in this life.

I also agree with you & believe we knew & chose our spouse in the pre-existence, and we were already destined to meet & be with them here. That is why Christ didn't/doesn't allow any remarriage, even when your spouse divorces you or dies, for it's impossible, for we already knew & chose our spouse in the millions of years before this life and will remember that & them again once we pass from this life.

I don't believe we have to be sealed by anyone on earth, that was already done in heaven long before we came. But we are here to help our spouse be righteous, just like we help our children, though often our spouse does not choose a righteous path or even stay with us through this life, thus causing us to have even more 'charity' & patience to wait until they repent, in this life or the next, just like we wait for our children to repent.

I believe all 1st marriages & families are eternal. No need to pay rich conspiring men for their fake rituals to have an eternal family.


Calleen,

I think it's very important that we discuss these things, for we are all deceived by many different falsehoods & false prophets that abound around us, that Christ warned us about, and by discussing things we can become enlightened to more truth and awake to our deception.

I have been awoken to many deceptions I held, by listening and learning from other's viewpoints, especially Rocks. For we don't have time to research & test everything and so we can benefit from other's research and learning, if we are humble & teachable.

I love how much I learn on blogs like this. While there is tons of false doctrine, there is also tons of truth to enlighten & free our souls from error. If we are following Christ & have or at least 'understand' charity and are really trying to gain it, we will be able to tell the difference between the truth and error and blogs like this can be a huge blessing.

Nate said...

BK

I think I am almost on the same page as you with Charity and the sealing etc.

I think sealing is actually just re-sealing or restoring us to the relationship we had with that person before we came here and perhaps being added upon.
Also with Charity (and there is a reason I capitalize that) I don't think people have found a fullness of Charity in a very long time. And rarely have had glimpses of it.
You don't seem to believe the BoM which trust me I get your viewpoint, but I do like how moroni is so worried about us not having Charity in this time.
He asks God if we truly won't have Charity and then exhorts us to pray with all of the energy of our heart to receive this pure love.
I think this is part of the curse of the church (and the whole earth) that we have disrespected women so much and have not been worthy to learn and receive the power which our Heavenly Mother has to offer.

I know this sounds pretty out there but in Hebrew the word Holy Spirit is pneuma or ruach and it is feminine. Charity is always referred to as a she or her. Same with wisdom etc. a few thousand years ago it was common knowledge that the Holy Spirit was female and the Shekinah or the glory of God was a female.

Ok most who read this have already dismissed it as crazy and I get that but please consider that if there is a perfect counterpart to us then why not a female spirit as well as the male Holy Ghost. Why in 1 John 4 does John say to try each spirit? Why the administration of spirits as a spiritual gift? Why in Jacob 6 does he list the Holy Ghost and Holy Spirit as separate things?

What if we are only getting half of the gospel because we have been brainwashed into thinking everything is about the male and Heavenly Mother is silent etc.?
There used to be a women's court in the temples and there is strong evidence that Mary was performing an ordinance when she anointed Jesus.
I just hope someone reading might consider this but if not oh well I know it is radical compared to the wisdom of men...

BK said...

Nate,

I think you are right about women. God's main concern (and reason for religion) seems to be to teach men to respect, protect and provide for women and children, especially when they don't have a husband/father anymore, like widows & single mothers.

I agree women have as much (or more) "Priesthood" and power as men to do ordinances or lead or instruct, etc. Especially since being able to give birth is a great, if not the greatest possession of God's power human's can possess, which also usually requires great sacrifice on the part of the mother. And which is sadly a power most women seem to be misusing or rejecting these days, which I believe means they will lose that great power in the eternities.

I also believe Mary (Christ's wife) had just as much or more power and clout as any of his Apostles.

I believe Christ believed in the complete equality & respect of women, which would also be one of the signs of a true prophet and a truly righteous man.

I commend you on your great thoughts about women and the female side of things. Perhaps the Holy Spirit is our Heavenly Mother's influence upon us, or at least both of their influences together.

I believe it has been men who have taught about only a 'male' God from the beginning, for most men throughout time have not been willing to respect, protect and honor women's full equality.

And sadly, most women have gone along with such disrespect and most still do in Churches like the LDS Church, where the leaders disrespect and abuse women and their divine rights, authority and powers.

I also agree that Charity is very rare, I don't think I have ever known of anyone past or present who really possesses it, except Christ of course. It would be wonderful to actually meet or know of someone who possessed it, so we could learn how they did it. For it seems almost impossible to gain, but there is nothing else but to keep working to gain it.

As far as the BoM, I agree with Moroni on Charity and his warnings about our day & freedom,(though I believe Joseph made him up).

But Joseph seemed to understand those kinds of things, (charity, freedom & higher respect for women, etc.), which makes it even more unlikely that he ever feel for polygamy, for he understood how wrong it was and how destructive it was to women & children.

While Brigham Young & Co. did not care how destructive and abusive polygamy was, nor did they have any idea what freedom or Charity was, or women's (or Black's) true equality. So of course such men would fall for polygamy and try to pull down Joseph's good standing in that area, for Joseph made Brigham look bad.

I don't believe Brigham liked Joseph at all, at least not in the later years. Brigham of course said he loved Joseph, but I believe that was just a lie to make Brigham again look good and like he had a good relationship with Joseph.

But I think the opposite is true, that Joseph had no confidence or trust in Brigham in those last years and was quite disgusted with him and was about to excommunicate Brigham and most of the 12 for their secret whoredoms and I believe Brigham knew this and that Joseph was totally against him.

I believe Brigham hated Emma too, for she also could see through him and called him on his evil deeds. Thus he continually tried to trash her reputation and testimony and make her look bad too, along with trashing Joseph like Brigham & others did, making him out to be an adulterous abusive liar, who lived completely contrary to his teachings and Christ's teachings.





nonamefornow said...

All right, about sealings--


I know of some situation, more than a few where the sealings that received the affirmation of God had to do with a child being sealed to people who were not his/her biological parents here on earth (one bio parent a monster; the other not wanting to deal with it; the child as an adult made a decision, prayerfully, to be sealed to relatives that raised him/her, but his his/her parent)--


it received very gentle, but very real, confirmation--

AND--

in the case of adoption--


is a 3-9 month old child filled with the spirit of evil and satan when he/she sits up in a sealing room, watches everyone very intently and laughs with that amazing joy that rarely even infants can do?

When you can see the old spirit inside the baby?

And everyone who cares sees it?

Is that satan?

Or a child who can't even speak the language and, so far, hates church (and will continue to dislike it while saying, "I know I need to learn to do things I don't like") who runs into the sealing room and hops up on the kneeling cushion--

and completely flabbergasts all the stuffy old men--

who can't say a word--

he/she wouldn't understand it anyway!!! LOL!

And suddenly seems to understand everything--for a moment, and is later obsessed with the kitchen in the temple and meeting the people there--

but has no more interest in the sealing room once the 'ordinance' is completed?

And never really cares about temples again?


I have had many of these experiences--

They are not uncommon--

how is this explained?

Yes, there is something to sealing--

How would a deceiving angel, an 'angel of light' get into a very innocent, beautiful child' years below 8?

I think Joseph was onto something with sealing.

I think he did good things sporadically--

how heavily were he, Hyrum, and Samuel, and, yes, even William, involved?

Does anyone know?

The problem I have with the fallen prophet 'thing' is that most people are all or nothing.


He was wonderful; he was very, very bad--

could it be possible that there were a few things, a very few things, that he had to do yet--

simple things--

sealings and baptisms for the dead did not have to be exploded into spending hours and hours, with limited access, in temples--

no, indeed.

The endowment has no purpose, other than to teach people things that are very difficult to understand and possibly not completely true, even intelligent people who 'get' a lot of deep things--

Oh, I've heard this from many good people--


So--


It's not just marriage; it's not just sealing between a man and a woman--


it is a person being sealed to parents who died young, weeping at the sealing place--

and having understandings about those parents and receiving incredible comfort--

I can tell you personally that comfort does NOT come from satan--

I didn't want to say so much, but sometimes we *out here* know things that need to be shared--


if anyone will listen.

Yes, there was something to the sealing power. Do only old men have access to it? I'm not sure about that--

but there is something there--

nonamefornow said...

actually, the 'degrees of glory' were Sidney Rigdon's brain child, and they may literally have been; he was not stable mentally--


he was very much a Campbellite, and the idea of degrees intrigued him; Joseph, as usual, got caught up with someone whose passion interested him and went too far--

nonamefornow said...


Nate,


you have no idea what happened to someone close to me (female) when she asked if anyone could find a scripture anywhere that proved that the Holy Ghost was male?

It took a while for me to understand, because my brain is petrified, but I have learned that usually this person has wisdom I can't even grasp.

She did not SAY the holy ghost was female, but not only could nobody find such a scripture, the vitriol that was spit on here (in a young adult institute) class was as much from the female teacher as from the RM (male) who exploded at her--

she never went back; she said she got tired of baby-sitting.

Nate said...

@ BK

Thanks for your comments you hit it right on the head with treatment of women. The Spirit has told me that Emma was a very great woman and we are yet to learn how important her role is in everything.
Yes the portion of the endowment (among other parts) where a woman makes an oath to submit to her husband is evil.
Yes women do have a priesthood I know it. The world will soon see the great power of women and lost ordinances will be reinstituted.
Since you already know of the importance of Mary you may want to ask God whether she could have been the angel that strengthened Jesus during the atonement.
Also the verse that states women were far off from the cross ministering to Jesus. Very interesting stuff

@ Noname

I have also felt the spirit many times about sealing. Consider this though, every child of God in His kingdom will be sealed to everyone else.
We might as well seal every kid to every adult because the great family of Israel will be sealed together each and every one eventually

Nate said...

Also consider the greatest love on earth. Is it not a mother's love for her children? If we all were filled with the love of our Heavenly Mother we would spend our lives to save every last child. There would be no poor, no sick that were not treated with all care, no hungry, no person that we would not love even if they were gay or of a different race or belief etc...

Calleen there are a few verses that speak of the Holy Ghost as a He... I have made a point of noticing them. But consider when the 12 sought out 7 men full of the Holy Ghost AND "wisdom".
There is a great mystery here. Wisdom in Greek is "Sophia". Wisdom is always referred to as a her and a she. If you read proverbs with the Spirit you will be blown away.
Also consider Elisha desiring the double portion so badly. Ever asked what the double portion is? Right when he received it he had the power to turn waters and perform great miracles.
I have a rock solid testimony that there is a female Spirit and a male one. I don't claim to know if they are emanating from the Mother and Father or if they are separate Spirit beings but they are distinct and equally powerful.
I hope you will pray about this to see if it could be true because I believe when someone finally gets a fulness of both of these it will change the world...

BK said...

While I don't believe in sealings or that Joseph ever believed in or taught about sealings either for he understood families and marriages were already naturally eternal, (I believe Brigham made it up) the 'idea' that we are eternally our parent's children and our spouse's spouse is a truth, that I believe the Spirit can convey to anyone in or out of the temple, which feelings I believe people just associate with the 'sealing ordinance' because that is what they have been taught to believe in.

But children & adults in all non-lds churches & temples throughout the world all have similar feelings & experiences & think that God is confirming their experience as true and right.

And yes, I believe Satan can have an effect even on children (though they aren't accountable for it yet), for some spirits come from the pre-earth life as quite rebellious proud spirits, where others are more naturally righteous and humble.

But in the case of adoption, I believe the natural parents will always be the eternal parents of that child and also the parents who raised the child will be close, loved and eternally known in the next life too.

For I believe being an eternal family has nothing to do with anyone being righteous or wicked, it has to do with our life before this. All 1st marriages (unless they were forced), natural families & parent's natural children are eternal, there is no need for 'sealings' and no scriptural basis for such a concept as sealings, Christ did not teach it. And anything more or less then what Christ taught, we know 'cometh of evil'. (Like the false idea of sealings came from evil men like BY).

I believe God lets a certain child (and the child agreed) to come to those particular birth parents, whether good or bad, whether they ended up raising that child or not. So there was a reason God & the child chose those parents, even if the child is later adopted or raised by someone else.

I find it interesting that almost all children who are adopted have an innate desire to find their original parents when they get older, there is some kind of natural tie that doesn't go away just because the child was adopted.

Though loving adoptive parents I'm sure will always be an eternal part of a child's eternal life, along with the real parents.

But I believe that if everyone was righteous there wouldn't be any adoptions. People would just raise orphans knowing and talking about how they will be rejoined with their original parents in eternity, but the child will still love and know their adoptive parents forever also.

BK said...

Part 2-

I do believe people feel legitimate feelings from God in even false temples doing false ordinances like sealings and baptisms for the dead, but I believe it's just because there is some element of truth to what is happening (like 1st marriages are eternal, not because they are being sealed in a temple, but just because they are, so naturally the couple would feel something special.

As I look back on feelings I had at times in the temple, I see now why I had those feelings, but they didn't mean that the sealing or ordinance was necessary or valid, though at the time I equated it all with the temple.

I now believe it's impossible for sealings or anything to do with the temple to be valid, given the kind of people (BY) who made up the temple and that Christ never taught any of it and looking at the bad fruit of such ordinances and sealings.

Not to mention that there are just as many instances of people who are constantly committing adultery over the alters of the temple everyday throughout the world while being sealed in an adulterous 2nd marriage after divorce, and they too would swear they felt God's confirmation that their marriage is eternal and right. They are always sure their love is real and that God brought them together and it looks so real to everyone watching them too, but Christ says it's all adultery and wrong.

Such sealings/remarriages are completely against what Christ taught, so we know they aren't valid and that Satan influences many in the temple to think that such feelings & impressions are from God or that the ordinance is valid with God, when it really isn't.

Feelings, revelation or spiritual experiences are funny things, we can't automatically assume they are of God, no matter how wonderful or miraculous they feel or seem. We have to only go by Christ's teachings and assume we can easily be mislead by our feelings & thoughts or what we think others are feeling.

For again, millions of non-LDS have the same feelings and experiences in all their own religions, churches, families and non-LDS temples.

I do believe that the idea that marriages & families have to be 'sealed' in order to be eternal is actually from Satan, for most marriages and families are not ideal in this life and thus many people, especially children, are made to suffer the depressing false belief that their family, parents or marriage will not be forever, because someone in the family wasn't righteous or faithful.

I have seen how the Church's 'Families can be forever' idea hurts far more people then it comforts.

Calleen Bataiff said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Calleen Bataiff said...

@BK
OK, I'll concede. I realize that most of us here have been institutionalized and need to come to terms with that. I have to admit that it still floors me when I find something new in Church History that is completely different from what I was taught, and when the GA teach something over the pulpit that is completely made-up.

However, I would hope that we don't get so caught up in these things that it distracts us from God's will for us now. If we look at Jesus Christ for an example, He didn't spend anytime fussing about that stuff except to point out scripture, because He just went to heart of things to teach truths, according to His Fathers will. Again, I don't believe He was institutionalized either, because He held the mind of God, but He did understand the institution.

@ Nate

I think you're on to something. In the Lectures on Faith we are taught the Godhead consists of 2 personages, the Father, and the Son. The mind of God is the Holy Ghost, but if you look at the attributes of God's mind it sounds female. If we look at the attributes of our mothers, (in general) it's they who are the comforters, it's they who are the teachers of life, it's they who nurtures. This, as I stated before, isn't always the case, but in general those are the attribute of a mother.

So it's very possible that the Holy Ghost just may be our Mother. A Mother who cares deeply for all of us Her offspring.

Good point!

Alan Rock Waterman said...

Hello, Friends,
It's taken me a bit of time to catch up with the comments here, and I don't think we'll rest yet until we return home at the end of the week.

AH asked about whether I receive royalties on the Kindle from those with Amazon Unlimited subscriptions.

No, I don't but it doesn't matter. Naturally I would like to see some proceeds from the sale of the book, at least enough to repay those who have advanced us the funds to get here to Utah, but I didn't write it to get rich (good thing, too, because I ain't gettin' rich off the royalties!)

I wrote this book in order to help advance the dialog regarding what has gone wrong in the LDS Church today, and what it will take each individual to come to Christ. I firmly believe that our c.urrent obsessive allegiance to the "Church" is distancing many of us from the Lord.

So when I published the book I checked the boxes to allow my book to be read free of charge to those who have subscribed to Amazon's Unlimited program, and also to enable the book to be "borrowed" and read. I also disabled the DRM lock. Yes, I would like for people to buy my book, but more important to me is that I would like people to READ my book. So I am not offended if you loan it around.

Calleen Bataiff said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Alan Rock Waterman said...

If you would like to support my efforts, you will have my eternal gratitude. I earn a small royalty from every hard copy sold, but I am unable to purchase copies of my own at this time because they cost me money I don't yet have. If you buy a hard copy, Amazon will let you also have a Kindle edition for $2.99 more which you can buy any time in the future.

I was chagrined to see that Amazon raised the discounted price of the book from $9.90 up to $13.50. When they did that, sales abruptly dried up. I have no control over their pricing. I wish I did, but they have some algorithm that computes their production and printing costs,and I guess the system determined they were losing money at 9.90.

I'm working at an arrangement with Createspace where folks can buy it directly from the printer for ten dollars, but then shipping costs will be another 3 or 4, so there would be no real savings over buying it on Amazon. If you have Amazon Prime, shipping is free, and if you don't have Amazon Prime shipping is free if you combine my book with others that bring your purchase to 35.00 or more, so either of those options is the wisest.

My wife and I have a friend from our former ward who bought the book by itself from Amazon and paid the shipping costs on top of it, which made me cringe.

Although this friend didn't mind, please don't do that. Buy another book and save the shipping costs, please. Don't spend 18 or 19 dollars total just to get my book. Better you buy the Kindle edition, because even if you don't own a Kindle, almost all devices today have a free Kindle app so you can read the book on your device. As well as your computer.

Anyway, that's a long answer to a short question posed by AH above.

Again, this is not just a book for those facing Church discipline. It's a primer for what has gone wrong in our church, and what we can do as individuals to see that we don't fall into the trap of idolatry. I hope you'll read it if you haven't already. (It's a much easier read than you might think.)

And please say a few words on the Amazon Review page for me. That would help a lot for others who may be considering reading it but would like to see if there are sufficient endorsements first.

Alan Rock Waterman said...

I've enjoyed catching up with the brisk discussion taking place here in my absence. I don't intend to jump into the fray regarding the polygamy question at this time. It's a bottomless topic, and I will address it again, but only after I've had the chance to read absolutely everything on the subject.

I will say one thing, however. I don't believe the nonsense about the angel with a flaming sword appearing to Joseph.

We never got that story from Joseph. I don't have my copies of Brian Hale's massive work, "Joseph Smith's Polygamy", but what I do remember is that the story first surfaced many years after Joseph's death, told by, I think it was John Taylor. After that, others such as Kimball, Woodruff, et all repeated it as if it were fact.

It has all the earmarks of a fake. Joseph never taught it, the entire story violates free agency, and ...well, in short, I just ain't buying it.

As with every story of this kind, I recommend readers follow the footnotes. You'll usually find that something being taught as fact originated with a rumor or hearsay decades after the person who is purportedly the source of the story (in this case Joseph Smith) never told the story himself during his lifetime.

Alan Rock Waterman said...

On another note, I believe Joseph Smith was a flawed man, but I don't go so far as to believe he was "fallen" -whatever that means.

Like many of us, he was easily impressed by men with credentials, like Sidney Rigdon, famous throughout the frontier as "The Walking Bible" and the scoundrel John C. Bennett, who became Mayor of Nauvoo and First Counselor in the presidency before his perfidy was discovered.

But I don't think Joseph Smith was any different than most of us would have been in his position. Here was a poor farm boy who found that men of letters and reputation were suddenly interested in associating with him. It would take a very strong person indeed to say "no thanks, I don't need your help; I'll go this alone."

Alan Rock Waterman said...

If anything, the person who did the most damage to Joseph's reputation was Brigham Young, who professed love and devotion to a man now dead, and claimed they had been best buds in life.

As others have posted above, Brigham, in collusion with Willard Richards, doctored the official church history and put words in Joseph's mouth that Joseph never spoke, and eliminated from the histories and the scriptures those things that would not be in keeping with the "new" narrative.

Alan Rock Waterman said...

As NoNoame and others have pointed out, we deserve to set everything else aside for a season and focus on the Book of Mormon only. That is how we can begin to recenter ourselves doctrinally.

As MajJohnButtrick concluded, at the end of the day all that matters is what is necessary for our salvation. All this stuff that has accumulated onto our religion over the years means very little, though it is interesting to ponder.

And NoName reminds us that when we look at the fruits of modern Mormonism, we have nothing to brag about. Yet the boasting and self-contratulations continues ever on.

We deserve to come to Christ and ignore any diversions that would detract us from that goal. And that includes any in the hierarchy who claim that by following them, they will lead us to Christ.

Just remember that man of holiness that Lehi saw at the beginning of his vision. The man bade Lehi to follow him. Lehi did as the man suggested and Lehi got hopelessly lost.

Alan Rock Waterman said...

By the way, the online news source The Daily Beast covered the recent Sunstone Symposium, of which I was a participant. I'm quoted at the end of the article:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/08/03/mormon-reformers-behind-the-zion-curtain-refuse-to-be-silenced-by-the-church.html

MajJohnButtrick said...

Good article, Rock. I see our "friend" FriarTuck has not ceased his efforts - even commenting on their blog about you. Oh well. With regard to the "angel with the flaming sword" - I think Mary Rollins Lightner corroborates the account (will have to dig into that again), but I have no desire to keep the topic alive or debate it. All I'll say is when you say it "violates free agency", isn't that the point (if it were an Angel of Light)? :) Anyway, it helps me frame what may have happened, and keeps me from throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I enjoyed your book, and am sharing it now with my wife. Take care and thanks.

Nate said...

Rock

Thanks for your comments to bring us back to earth. I guess the truth is that we are all fallen creatures and unworthy and nothing. Thank God for the atonement for all of us.

I am about to go back to a comment by BK that I am going to analyze and tell me if I am crazy... The only reason I do this is because it is pertinent to us all in a very life altering way.

BK said something to the effect that we cannot trust spiritual experiences or even revelation but we can only trust the words of Christ.

BK... Why to you believe in Christ? We all can assume it has something to do with you feeling the Spirit in some way that affirms to you that Christ is real... How do you know what His words are? Well I assume the only way is the Spirit will testify to you when His word is spoken...

We know that the Bible is all messed up and many other books including the current LDS Book of Mormon is corrupted. We can't trust men so I contend that the only thing we can trust is revelation from God.

Why even believe a word of the Bible or anything unless the Spirit tells you it is true. A major positive transition happened for me in my life when I told God I would only trust His voice (revelation to me) and no one else's.

Now I agree people can feel the spirit during an ordinance and that means nothing concerning the necessity or veracity of the ordinance itself. It just means the spirit confirmed a truth involved. Unless the spirit actually tells you word for word that "such and such ordinance is this or that" then we have learned nothing concerning that ordinance.
That is why some ordinances are so dastardly is because people feel the spirit in some part of it and they thing the whole thing must be from God. For instance God taught me a ton during the endowment about the principles involved and so I thought it must be a pure ordinance from God.
Then one day (in the temple) I had a powerful spiritual experience where God told me that consecration only comes from Him bringing me to the point of consecration. He told me that working hard to keep oaths will get me no where and it is only by His grace and power that I progress.
I know this sounds simple but it changed my life. God taught me that these oaths are against Christ's teachings and the idea of consecrating everything to a church is just evil.

Anyway just an example of how I felt the spirit during the endowment which taught me many true priniciples but it meant nothing about the endowment being from God. It just meant I was seeking Him in my heart and He mercifully blessed me according to those desires even though I was acting ignorantly.

The next problem is that we need to learn first exactly how revelation is received. After first receiving revelation I still believed God talked to me in more ways than one. I still believed those inner conversations of peace were at times revelation. It took time before realizing that only the burning power of the Holy Ghost is God speaking to me. Even if an angel or God himself were in my presence it is only by the Holy Ghost that I know to trust anything they say...

So my conclusion is to not trust anything except the Holy Ghost.

Nate said...

Funny except should be accept. Probably many more mistakes I am writing quickly from my phone...

Nate said...

Nope I reread that and corrected something that did not need correcting. Wow

Anonymous said...

Rock, I got your book and am reading it in snatches between putting little ones down for naps and feeding hungry faces. I loved your Disney analogy. However, I have to confess that this family still remembers corny Disney movies from the 1970s. We love Snowball Express. I guess they are refreshingly clean in the world of media filth. But I do agree with the general concept that Disney movies have declined in quality. There is alot of difference between say Mary Poppins and The Computer That Wore Tennis Shoes. Sorry, what a funny thing to make a point of in my comment, but I couldn't help chuckle at your comment that no one remembers those movies....this "no one" family does!
I appreciate your efforts in writing the book it is entertaining and enlightening.
Homeschool Mom

Alan Rock Waterman said...

Homeschool Mom,
You remember Snowball Express! You're the only one I've ever met. I still bet NOBODY but me remember SuperDad. It starred Kurt Russell as a teen with Bob Crane as his dad. One of those generation gap comedies that was past its time already when it was made.

Shortly after we were married, Connie wanted me to take her to Herbie Goes to Monte Carlo because the Love Bug was an important part of her childhood. (she was 9 years old when the Love Bug came out.)

She was disappointed, but when Herbie Goes Bananas was released she still wanted to give the film a chance. It was so bad and such a disappointment that she was actually angry about it the whole way home. Somehow the sequels had ruined her childhood memories. Kind of like how Jar Jar Binks ruined the entire Star Wars franchise for people who were kids when the original three films came out, but were adults when Jar Jar ruined all their good feelings for Star Wars.

By the way, I was on the Disney Studio lot one day when they had a bunch of Love Bugs outside one of the shops they were putting together. Each car was built to do a different gag. One could open and flap it's doors, another it's hood, another could ride on two wheels on the side, Another could do wheelies, stuff like that. It was pretty cool to see all those identical stunt double cars on the lot. One day for a lark I drove the Love Bug in one of the Disneyland parades. Sat in the back behind black netting with an extended secret steering wheel and extended pedals.

My favorite thing that day on the Disny lot was roaming around the Old California set where Zorro had been filmed when I was a kid, and the old west town they used for Davy Crockett back in the day, and every other western since. (Can you tell I was a child of the 50s?)

Okay, now I'm just rambling like a reminiscing old man. But there was nothing like being on the Disney back lot for a guy who grew up loving Disney. It was a rare treat, and I miss those days.

We now return to your regularly scheduled conversation about Mormonism.

Calleen Bataiff said...

@BK

There is something that is very important that you said concerning adulterous marriages in the temple happening everyday that most ppl don't understand because of what is in D&C 132.

Happiness the Design of Existence

Section Five 1842-43, p.255

"Happiness is the object and design of our existence; and will be the end thereof, if we pursue the path that leads to it; and this path is virtue, uprightness, faithfulness, holiness, and keeping all the commandments of God. But we cannot keep all the commandments without first knowing them, and we cannot expect to know all, or more than we now know unless we comply with or keep those we have already received. That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another.

Section Five 1842-43, p.256

God said, "Thou shalt not kill;" at another time He said, "Thou shalt utterly destroy." This is the principle on which the government of heaven is conducted--by revelation adapted to the circumstances in which the children of the kingdom are placed. Whatever God requires is right, no matter what it is, although we may not see the reason thereof till long after the events transpire. If we seek first the kingdom of God, all good things will be added. So with Solomon: first he asked wisdom, and God gave it him, and with it every desire of his heart, even things which might be considered abominable to all who understand the order of heaven only in part, but which in reality were right because God gave and sanctioned by special revelation."


If God commands or sanctions a marriage, even if that man or woman has been married before, there is no sin in it. No matter what God commands, because God is commanding it, there can be no sin it. Ppl are quick to make judgements without understanding, that is why it's so important to make sure your judgements are righteous.

Just to be clear on this, I don't believe that all marriages, including temple marriages are commanded by God, so you are probably right on the adulterous marriage thing happening everyday in the temple. This, once again, shows they're (the church) sticking their feet in their mouths. Whether or not 132 has been tamper with (and I believe it has) they don't follow their own scripture. When it comes to these things, it's just a free for all in the temple. Well not quite a free for all yet. The free for all will come with the sealing of same sex couples.

nonamefornow said...

Nate,

I don't want to be disagreeable, truly, but I don't believe everyone will be sealed to everyone--


I know our present society/culture is so depraved that it's hard to understand--

yes, 'families can be forever' hurts MANY people, and it's a terrible song--

and should be gut shot and thrown in the nearest river (ha, ha, uh, ha!)--


but no, a child needs a mother and a father, and many in this life (I know too well) do not get that--



To see how *I* feel about the important of relationships (human to human, animal to animal, humans actually thinking about something besides money)

check this out:

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/the-story-of-the-weeping-camel/


You can see the entire documentary--

online.

And, no, the family is not letting the baby camel starve in the middle of all this; they are hand-feeding the baby--

but the care and compassion these people have for their animals, and each other, is so different from anything *we* Americans/Mormons know that it is staggering--


Rock, my husband printed it off for me. I hold up on paper (more easily done than anything for me now)--

and read it; I've gotten quite a ways; it took us too long to get it printed off (he did it at work), but we've got a lot going on right now, but it's not stopping me.


Hint, hint: I can't put it down, but then my arms start to ache--

I'll get back to you with pertinent information--

:)

nonamefornow said...

oh, along with "Follow the Prophet" and "I Love to See the Temple"


anyone else have any children's songs they want put out to pasture?

*wink*

Nate said...

@noname

I agree completely in the importance of a father and mother rearing children.

Do you believe you will be sealed to God? Sealed up to the celestial kingdom?

One thing people always seem to forget is that we will all be adults in the next life. You don't need to be sealed to any kids. Each person just needs to be sealed to a spouse and to God and then everyone is linked.

You may have more of a bond for certaind individuals because of what you experienced with them in life but there is a reason the scriptures teach to leave father and mother and cleave unto your wife.

Mommy and daddy are actually just your brother and sister in the next life.

Israel is the family of God. Give me one reason you need to be sealed to one of your kids if they will just go get a spouse and then they will be exalted and "sealed up to the celestial kingdom".

BK said...

Nate,

The only reason you believe in 'sealings' at all is because you were raised in the Church and taught it by false prophets who came up with the false idea.

Shedding the idea of 'sealing' or any other temple ordinance, is like shedding old snake skin. Once we are able to climb out of that thinking we realize there is no need for it.

Everyone is in a big eternal family in heaven even though there is no formal sealings. But all 1st marriages are eternal and all parents throughout history will always be the parents of their children and siblings will always be siblings, etc. in eternity.

Children will all be grown up anyway and off doing their own things with their spouse. There will just be 'couples' in heaven, but we will visit & mingle with family (close & distant relatives who we have known for millions of years, not just earthlife and that is why we chose to come through their lines)& also friends throughout eternity, no matter if they were righteous or wicked here on earth, eventually everyone repent & be righteous and in heaven together. Though not everyone, will have Eternal Life and the ability to be Gods.

Why does there need to be any kind of 'sealing' at all? There will be natural eternal families (those who came through the same genetic lines) and there will be eternal friendships also.

No need for some false idea about sealings, it simply is not needed.

The idea of sealings came from evil men who weren't worthy of true revelation from God and who needed a reason to justify polygamy and their false temples & rituals, to make them look important & valid.

I will answer your question about why I believe in Christ later today. :)

Calleen Bataiff said...

Just recently it came to my attention that only ppl we need to be sealed to is Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. Forgive my spelling. Once we are sealed to those guys we are then sealed to our spouse. I'm not sure where the children come in unless they too need to be sealed to the patriarchs. In the Teaching of the Prophet Joseph Smith, he said something about it, but as in all things, my understandings are limited until God finally decides to open my understanding.

37andholding said...

To anyone who might be willing to think about this:
What would be a reason to be " sealed " up to anything.
Is it something that would need to be done on earth by men who then prosper dominion over others and eventually squeeze God out and rule unrighteously over their brothers and sisters? Just like we've seen and experienced already? Is it necessary to have anything done in the temple building by men? Is our body the temple Jesus talks about and is it God that covenants with us himself?
I see conflict with comments that on one hand it's between us and God, and then there is still the mortal man's creations of ordinances that slip in and tell us that they're the way too. Which is it?

Anonymous said...

Thanks for the good laugh, Rock. I needed it today. I will definately read what you said about the Love Bug to my kids, they will like it. About '83 my parents entered us into the wonderful world of VCRs. The disney movies were some of the few to make it past my parents' eagle eyes at the video store and come home with us. That is probably why I know them so well. But I do have to admit I never watched SuperDad. Right now we have "The Ugly Daschound" waiting to be watched from Netflix. Okay, okay I will go now also and let the more deep conversations continue, but I still love your stories about Disneyland.
Homeschool Mom

37andholding said...

BK, your's and Calleen's comments didn't show up until after I posted mine so I didn't read them first. I want to know if you "know" the things you say about couples being in heaven together, and everyone will repent and live righteously in heaven forever, etc. comes from a trip to heaven that you are reminiscing about or are you gleaning information that you've heard, like me, growing up in the Mormon culture that sounds happy and reassuring to you? Because I have come to realize that much of what we've heard growing up was PR marketing. I had a friend years ago that joined the church because she was enamored by the thought of having her husband forever. It's all part of a sales pitch. Im not saying that God wouldn't grant that blessing to some but the promise man gives is just PR unless you can back up your claims.

BK said...

Calleen,

I appreciate your response & thoughts on the matter, but I don't believe D&C 132 is true scripture or from God. I believe Brigham wrote it and it's teachings & ideas are very arrogant, abusive & evil. Brigham seemed to be influenced by & accept such ideas at least in part, from a pamphlet that was passed around Nauvoo call "The Peacemaker". Which Joseph had warned the Church was evil trash & told them not to read or believe it. But it apparently sounded good to Brigham & Co. & so they incorporated such ideas into their church in the form of D&C 132, once Joseph died.

I also don't believe those other 2 quotes you posted are true either. Some have said Joseph said them, but I don't believe that either, for Joseph always taught just the opposite. I again believe they were written by Brigham's crowd to justify their whoredoms and abominations that went against Christ's teachings.

God's laws never change. God would never ask one thing to one person or dispensation and teach differently to another.

Joseph and Christ's Apostles taught that the way we know truth from error is if it differs from Christ's teachings. If it does then we know it's wrong, no matter how many so-called Prophets or angels may come preaching it.

Adam (and everyone who ever lived) had the same Gospel requirements, standards, expectations and commandments as we do today. There is only one straight & narrow way to Eternal Life and that is by charity and following Christ's few simple teachings. Nothing more nothing less. Even Joseph added far more to 'The Gospel' that he shouldn't have, which proves him to be just another false prophet who didn't really follow Christ, though he believe in many of Christ's teachings, so Joseph was probably sincere, just deceived.

If God could or would change his teachings from one person or group from another then it would be utter confusion and no one could prove what was true and from God or not.

Christ's teachings are and have always been the one standard throughout all time and even eternity. Even God has to follow those same teachings or he would cease to be God. Christ's teachings are God's teachings. Anything different was just men making up false doctrines.

The reason I said people are committing adultery in the temple is because of Matt. 9:19, not D&C 132. Christ taught that there is no such thing as remarriage, that all remarriage was adultery, because even though your spouse abandons or divorces you (or dies) they are still your spouse and you're still 100% completely married and expected to keep your vows of faithfulness and thus can't marry anyone else, no matter what laws men may make and allow in society that sound good and are easier.

True Everlasting love is not easy, everyone wants it but very few are willing to give it.

(I find it interesting Rock, how Walt Disney taught & based things on the same rare principle as Christ, True Love, which probably has been the enduring & saving factor about Disney all these years)

Christ called all remarriage adultery, even after divorce, for we are being unfaithful to our real spouse. There is no such thing as divorce in all eternity. No prophet, president, king or God even, has the authority or ability to dissolve a marriage, it's impossible. Our faithfulness & vows are not dependent on our spouse's love, faithfulness or presence, just like we don't stop loving and being the parents of our children even if they might reject or abandon us too.

It's impossible to remarry another person once we have married (unless it was a forced marriage as some are, where one or both are forced by parents or religion and there is no common consent between the couple).

BK said...

Calleen, Part 2 -

This may seem hard but Christ understood that marriages are made in heaven before we even come here, for we knew that person for millions of years and God brought us together here. If we remarry a 2nd spouse in polygamy or after the death or divorce of our real spouse, then we will just have to repent and give up that relationship in the next life, which will cause us much sorrow and remorse for hurting our original spouse & children and not keeping our vows of complete faithfulness to them.

Almost everyone in the world today and always have just fallen for the false & alluring teachings & laws of politicians and false prophets who have come up with and allowed such ideas as divorce and remarriage, which destroy children, families & society, but God has never allowed such things.

I realize Christ's laws on marriage are practically unheard of today, or hardly lived or believed by anyone anymore, but so they are, and they still stand, even most major religions (Catholics, Baptists & even LDS) still preach and acknowledge Christ high standard in marriage & acknowledge there is no divorce or remarriage allowed, though they don't really follow it, for then they would lose most of their membership.

That is why people are committing adultery in the temple as they remarry and the church is knowingly allowing it, cause they know if they don't let people remarry then few would remain in the Church and keep paying their dues. For Christ's laws are not popular or easy, very few are willing to live them.

For who wants to remain single and alone the rest of their life if their spouse dies or divorces them or is unsafe to live with? If we throw Christ's words to the wind and allow divorce and remarriage then we have to eventually allow any and all types of free love (for widows & those who never marry) & other types of marriage, like polygamy and same sex marriage, for they would all use the same argument, they don't want to be alone either.

Once we allow one divorce & remarriage it opens the door to eventually having to allow everything else, even free love, for those who are single, for why should they have to be alone & loveless too?

As Christ said, it's Charity (True Love)or nothing. True love or anything goes.

So I agree with you that soon the Church will even allow same sex marriage too (and polygamy again) once they are legal, for the Church just changes with the wind, with whatever it's members or government wants, so they can stay afloat & keep people coming. Though the Church is so big & powerful & rich now that they probably could exist as a corporation just fine without any members, but I think they want to keep the act up & play the part of 'prophets' as long as they can.

BK said...

Calleen,

I just read your comment about Abraham, Issac & Jacob. Why would we need to be sealed to them? Who taught that? Joseph? We must test and prove all things anyone says, even those who claim to be prophets, ancient or modern.

I don't think Abraham or Jacob were even righteous men. They did not follow Christ, at least not after they started living polygamy. So how could being sealed to them help anyone?

I think they themselves are going to need a lot of help to make it to heaven, they won't be able to help anyone else.

BK said...

37,

I agree that most of what the Church says is just PR and that their version of 'eternal marriage & family' is a huge selling point, but their version doesn't bring me any comfort, it's actually very depressing.

But I don't believe anyone 'knows' anything for sure. Unless God or Christ appears to you, but even then everyone I know of who says God and/or Christ has appeared to them and they are saved/promised eternal life, etc, are living unrighteously & opposite Christ.
So I believe they have just all been deceived by false visitations & false Christs, etc, which Christ warned us about.

So the best any of us can say is just what we 'believe & hope' to be true, based on our study, righteousness and experience. I base mine on, not what the Church teaches, for I have had to shed most of that, but only on what 'Christ' taught.

The Holy Spirit can teach us anything too, but since everyone's easily deceived by false revelation (thinking it's from God), we must go back & prove our revelation against the words of Christ.

So I believe either everyone will eventually repent (in hell, for it's mostly a learning place, where we finally can see, feel & understand the effects of our unrighteous acts on others) and all families/marriages will eventually be together forever, 'OR' most everyone (for very few are righteous) will be in hell forever.

For Christ taught we either have charity or we are nothing, and that only those who have charity are his true followers and will make it to heaven. So since few if any have true charity, only a few will make it to heaven.

But when you stop listening to others opinions, especially by so-called prophets that even conflict with each other, and you finally only listen to Christ's words in the N.T. and truly try to live them, then I believe it starts to make sense that eventually everyone will repent & go to heaven, even if they have to make a side trip to hell 1st.

Otherwise if it's not so, heaven is going to be a pretty lonely place. I believe 'eternal damnation' is just not being able to be a God.

One example of why I believe as I do is, why would Christ require people to suffer alone & stay faithful to a deceased, divorced or absent unrighteous spouse they will never be with again anyway, if your spouse or you are not going to go to heaven? It makes no sense. If your spouse is wicked (and hardly any wicked people ever repent in this life) why doesn't Christ let you divorce & remarry someone righteous who will go to heaven with you & also be happy with here?

Can we really be happy in heaven single? When our spouse & children & almost all those we love are not there?

Do we realize how hard it is to have charity? To truly be righteous? I don't know anyone who is, I don't think I have true charity either. Though most people are good and nice most of the time and do alot of service and are great parents, etc, but most also don't really follow Christ's laws either. Joseph Smith described most of us correctly when he said we were good honorable people deceived by the craftiness of men & false prophets. He just didn't know he was talking about himself too.

Where is there in all the world or in history or scripture who has had true charity, other then Christ? So who is going to make it? I can't even find an ancient or modern prophet who had charity or were Christlike.

Charity is alot more then just being loving or serving, for even evil people can do that as Christ said.

I realize the BoM has a few good examples but I mean someone real, for I believe Joseph made up those stories & people.

And though I do believe I have been to heaven and learned some things about love, marriage & God there, in a near death experience, that was not where I formed most of my beliefs, but instead mostly by trying to live and understand Christ's teachings throughout my life.

But I could be wrong of course.

37... said...

BK thank you for answering my question.

Thomas said...

@BK

I’ve seen you comment many times over the last few months that all 1st marriages are eternal.

I am currently in a 2nd marriage.

If only one marriage can be eternal, I hope *for me* that my 1st marriage *is not* eternal and that my 2nd marriage *is* eternal and that the Lord does not see me as committing adultery by being in a 2nd marriage.

If I wake up from the resurrection and find myself with my 1st wife and separated from my 2nd wife and our family I will be question if I have been damned to suffer for eternity. If I wake up and find I’m with both my wives …well …I will be surprised because I don’t believe in plural marriage.

When I was in my mid-twenties I made the mistake of getting married to someone I shouldn’t have married. There were red flags but I was blinded. I hope the Lord sees that I made a mistake and has forgiven me. I realized it was a mistake the day after our temple wedding when my wife, feeling sick from taking birth control pills, accused me of trying to murder her and get the life insurance benefits. She was not joking! I tried working with her for five months through this crazy type of nonsense (some of which I’ll share) before I moved out and went to a different state.

During the five months we were together, we were self-employed working together. We were almost always together. The only time I can think of that we were not together was when she *said* she was seeing a doctor (more about that later). I didn’t go anywhere without her. Despite always being together she accused me of sneaking off with other women.

Almost on a daily basis she would argue me, hit me, pinch me, pull my hair, or throw things at me. The time she said she went to see a doctor she returned and told me she had a miscarriage and that the baby was a girl. She said that I had murdered our baby by making her (my wife) work too hard in our business. We were using contraceptives, which I know aren’t a hundred percent reliable, but there was no indication that she was pregnant. I didn’t confirm with her doctor, I just didn’t believe her.

I knew for sure our marriage was over when she accused me of having sexual relations with my own mother.

After leaving her, I filed for divorce which took about four months to finalize. I tried to get our temple sealing nullified but the Church™ wouldn’t allow me to do it. To this day we are still sealed.

A few months after the divorce I met a wonderful woman. We dated and several months later we married in the temple. We have been married almost 22 years now and have 5 wonderful children. This is the family I want to be with for eternity. I hope the Lord doesn’t prevent me from being with them for eternity just because I made a stupid decision to get married the first time.

If all 1st marriages are eternal, then there is a dilemma. My 1st wife was in a marriage prior to getting married to me.

Jens said...

Rock,

I'm reading your book and praising your name and the unsung team of angels that helped you write it. The power of 'What to Expect When You're Excommunicated - The Believing Mormon's Guide to the Coming Purge' lies in its direct evidence from many sources that all is not well in Zion and that we're not stuck with the status quo. That you've made the case with clarity, simplicity and brevity argues for it reaching down past the trained scholars to folks of every stripe who find themselves increasingly loyal to Jesus Christ and Joseph Smith while wondering just what is going on in the wildly affluent, PR-polished modern Mormon church.

The book and its message deserves to find a wide audience. May it find its way to the center of a fine brouhaha where it could touch some faithful hearts. I can think of no higher compliment than to have it pilloried by FairMormon. May you be invited to Sunstone to speak about its concepts further.

Calleen Bataiff said...

@ BK

Well as far as the "Happiness the Design of Existence", I received personal instruction and understanding on that one, so I can say, from that stand point, I understand God's mind. As far as the Abraham, Issac, and Jacob thing, I haven't had any personal revelation concerning that so it's just speculation, but at this point after reading God's covenants with them (Abraham, Issac, & Jacob)it makes sense.

I'm right with you on Sec. 132. I believe Brigham messed with that one big time, however, Brigham took a bunch of different revelations given to Joseph at different times and put them together in a way that would justify his chosen lifestyle. There are parts of the revelation that are true and I have received understanding about a portion of it.

You know the best way to find out if something is true or not is to study it pray about and ponder it. God will give you understandings. All the discussions in the world can't touch what knowledge comes from God.

Nate said...

BK

I am still looking forward to how know your opinion on how you can know Christs words without revelation as to know what His words are?

All of us probably agree on the first two commandments but if that was all there was to it Christ would have repeated them and taught nothing else.
In order to love God we have to know Him. We can't know Him without knowing the truth. We can't know truth without revelation.

Also since you do not believe in any type of sealing whatsoever, what is your opinion on the whole "whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth, shall be bound in heaven"

I agree that temple stuff has been ridiculously misenterpreted. In my opinion a temple is simply where Christ can appear and set His feet on the ground. This seemed to be the only function of the tabernacle and all of the ordinances were symbolic of the higher law and what we personally need to do to become pure so we can see God.

Anything I know is only because of revelation. I can read the New Testament over and over and memorize every word and that does not mean I know any of Christs words.

I can't say that the whole New Testament is true. In fact I can say quite the opposite. It has been so perverted by evil men that many truths are missing or meanings changed.

As far as sealings I think we are pretty close. I do not believe it is an ordinance in a temple but it is being restored to the proper order and becoming one with your perfect counterpart who was created for you.

I do believe that there is an ordinance to do this that is shared in the New Testament. I also believe the washing of the feet is an ordinance.

Anyhow I think near death experiences are wonderful but even the person who has such an experience almost always interprets the meaning according to their own bias.

Many times people see a being of light that does not give a name or title and they just knew it was Jesus or Muhammad or siddhartha or Confucius. (Not that any of those beings couldn't appear in a near death experience...

Calleen Bataiff said...

@ BK

Go back and read my earlier post. As I stated before, I don't believe that all marriages in the temple are according to the will of God, and to go even further, I don't believe this church has that authority, so all their temple marriages are null and void. I do know for a fact that God does put ppl together, as in marriage partners, and I also know for a fact that if He brings you together there is nothing else needed. Look at Jacob with his first and second wife. He didn't want the first one, but honored his father-in-laws wishes and worked for an additional 7 yr.s to get the one he knew was his companion. All the wedding consisted of was a party and he went in and had her, and walla they were married.

In Sec. 132 read:

8 Behold, mine house is a house of order, saith the Lord God, and not a house of confusion.
9 Will I accept of an offering, saith the Lord, that is not made in my name?
10 Or will I receive at your hands that which I have not appointed?
11 And will I appoint unto you, saith the Lord, except it be by law, even as I and my Father ordained unto you, before the world was?

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 132:8 - 11)

This applies to everything, including marriages.

Again, all the discussion in the world won't bring you to the understanding of how God works things down here. You have to go to the Master to find out these things. And really why would my or anybody else opinion have any baring on anything. You know what they say about opinions and it holds true. They all stink!

MajJohnButtrick said...

@Thomas

...Boldly going where angels fear to tread... I disagree with BK on the on the "all first marriages are eternal", but that is irrelevant. (I'm on my first and only marriage of 27 years so far, BTW, so I have no ulterior motive here). My guess is that BK may have been the victim of a horrible first husband who left and then went on to get sealed once or twice more. We all have our points of view. All I want to tell you (and BK) is that I have a testimony that God is loving Father, and that I can't imagine that he is that "rule bound" that he won't do what's best for each of us, given that we did our best, and tried to do what's right. God is love, not just a disciplinarian. That is all. Major out.

BK said...

Thomas,

I appreciate you sharing your situation. It's a common one but fortunately for you it appears you're in the clear, especially if your 2nd wife wasn't married before. Then it appears your marriage now is a legitimate, righteous & eternal marriage.

For according to Christ your 1st marriage was adultery and wrong (cause she was divorced and already had a husband somewhere, thus you were wrong to even be with her) and so it was a good thing you got out of it and found a woman who was not attached to anyone, though it would have been sad if you had had children with that 1st wife, though that wouldn't have made the marriage valid or right.

But I wouldn't plan on 2 wives in eternity, for she will eventually be reunited with her 1st husband, once both repent, in this life or the next. And we know who came up with that idea of polygamy, it wasn't Christ, you are not really sealed to your 1st wife, no such thing as sealings (another whole subject), but if Christ didn't teach it his apostles warned us not to believe in it.

Christ condemned polygamy as much as remarriage, when he taught that someone who has already been married (rightly, not to a divorced person like you), can't marry another person, so that covers polygamy too.

But, according to Christ, your 1st marriage would have been still valid if she had not been married before, despite her abuse,etc. For marriage isn't eternal because both are righteous, but because all marriages are eternal, even Joseph Smith understood this and put it in his scriptures on the marriage ceremony. When we marry we make a solemn unconditional promise to each other, no matter what. At least that's what God expects, Christlike love, no matter what.

That's the kind of love Christ has for us, even though we have all rejected and abused and been unfaithful to him, he still keeps his covenants to us and loves us unconditionally and is going to save us over death and take us to heaven (after we repent) even though we don't deserve it or him.

BK said...

Thomas, Part 2 -

There were many many women and men in similar abusive marriages as what you described, following Jesus and listening to him and asking him the same questions about what they should do. He knew their horrible situations, yet he still taught no remarriage.

That is why his disciples were so astonished and rightly concluded that if no one can remarry, then it's best not to marry at all, then to get stuck in an unhappy or abusive marriage, which is true. Better to wait for a day when most people & leaders are righteous enough to make sure a spouse can't abuse their spouse like that & when there is more help available for abusive adulterous spouses to change & repent. Christ' apostles got it.

I believe Christ knew very well that most marriages in this life would experience some form or degree of abuse, adultery or addiction, etc, by one or both spouses, so obviously he didn't think that was a justification for divorce & remarriage or he would have said so, for he knew many would take his words very seriously.

And most people at the brink of divorce think they just made a mistake in choosing wrong, that's just the nature of marriage in this fallen world with fallen people, it doesn't mean we did choose wrong, though in your case you did, cause she was not free to marry again.

But I don't believe Christ wants us to let anyone abuse us. We don't have to stay living with a spouse who is abusive, in order to keep our vows to them. Letting them hurt us in any way isn't love and it doesn't do them or us any good. Separation for safety reasons is a very valid and often necessary thing, and we can still love & serve our spouse & help then eventually repent, from a safe distance until they do fully repent, in this life or the next.

But there is no getting around what Christ said, especially since more or less then his words 'cometh of evil'.

I have a testimony of & believe in true unconditional love in marriage, (not yours for your 1st marriage wasn't valid) but in valid 1st marriages. For I can see now why Christ taught this, though his teaching is very hard to live.

But I believe divorce & remarriage for any reason, even for seemingly valid reasons, still destroys children, families and societies. Only True Unconditional Christlike Love in marriage (charity) creates a lasting, safe & free society for children and families. We either have Charity (True Love) or we are nothing.

Thomas said...

@BK

Thank you for you comments and perspective. I had never thought of it that way before.

BK said...

Nate,

First off, I agree with you on near death experiences, I think they are geared toward the person's beliefs & understanding at the time and thus can be quite different from other's experiences, though I do believe they are true experiences, but not a lot is usually revealed or understood correctly if much is revealed, people can still be way off even after having one.

And I also agree about the New Testament, it is filled with errors & falsehoods, just like the Old Testament. Except the exact words of Christ, where we often get 3 different versions of them. I believe amazingly enough his words came through pretty intact, for who is going to make up such high laws and get it right even, for his laws are true.

I believe that personal revelation is absolutely vital to understanding the words of Christ found in the New Testament. Only with the Spirit, (with charity), will we fully understand them.

The words of Christ alone are not enough and personal revelation alone is not enough, for without the words of Christ to test & prove our revelation, we can easily be led to believe our false revelations that we continually get from the Adversary. Even most all prophets have fallen for false revelation, that's how easy it is to think it's from God when it isn't.

The only way we can 'prove' the words of Christ in the NT to see if they are true, is by living them and by looking at history to see what works & what doesn't and by applying the Golden Rule.

If we don't really live Christ's laws then we won't understand them.

Most people throughout the world
think their revelation is correct and from God and that that is all they need. But without comparing our revelation to Christ's words, we won't be able to tell if we are being deceived or not, for the Adversary's revelation sounds just as good & logical and often far better to us then God's revelation does.

So no matter how sure we think we are, the only sure thing is that we are all deceived by what we think the Spirit is telling us, in many ways and just don't know it yet.

I believe the words of Christ found in the New Testament have proven correct and true, from what I have seen, experienced and studied. I have proven his words for myself, so that even if Christ never existed, his principles are the only ones that make sense and can keep families & societies & the world happy, peaceful and free, no other way works for long.

Alan Rock Waterman said...

Jens,

Thank you for that kind praise. Would you consider repeating that in the review section on my book's Amazon page?

There are only 3 reviews there so far, and I think it would help immensely if some who have read the book so far would drop by and add a few words. After an initial push the day it came out in July, sales trickled off to virtually nothing in August. My understanding is that some potential readers judge a book by the number of reviews present on Amazon, so I would appreciate any little nudge. I would like to see this conversation take hold with a wider audience.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Nate said...

BK

Thank you that does clarify your position. I agree that many are lead astray with false revelation but even more often people are lead astray by revelation from God....

Ha ha that may sound crazy but for example. Some people will pray to God and ask "is this principle true". Eventually they feel the Holy Ghost and they think just feeling the Spirit is an affirmative answer because they don't know how to decipher what the Spirit communicated.

Most people don't know that to receive a positive or negative answer feels exactly the same way, and therefore God withholds so much because they don't know the language of the spirit..

What I mean is this. If I ask God if Abraham Lincoln was a tyrant (crazy example but whatever) then God could say "yes he was a tyrant" or "no he was a good man" and either one of those answers would come by the same feeling and power.

Also the other way all of us are lead astray by God's revelations is that if God says something like "Joseph Smith was a prophet" then we think that now we know that everything the man said or did was from God.

Or I used to think that since I felt the Holy Ghost in church every week or in the temple that the church must be true.

I asked my stake president to pray to know if Joseph was ever commanded to practice polygamy and he admitted he could not get a burning from the Holy Ghost that communicated that he was. And he concluded that because he felt dark and uncomfortable while praying about it then that was an answer from God that he was asking a wrong question... I looked through and showed him everything in the scriptures that talked about how God speaks to us and showed him that God never ever speaks through feelings of darkness or discomfort. That is not an answer from God and if we experience this it is either cognitive dissonance or the adversary trying to get us to stop praying.

Again I have learned that only a clear burning from the Holy Ghost (like tingly electricity flowing through the soul) that brings clarity and the fruits of the Spirit is a communication from God. It will always lead us to love more and to pray and continually repent.

The adversary can give a feeling of electricity that is similar (for instance while watching a scary movie etc) but the feeling always brings eeriness or paranoia and nothing concrete is really communicated. With diligence we can learn quickly when false revelation is being given because we usually have put ourselves in a situation to open up to it.

Nate said...

@ BK

The above posting was for you as well. I would like to share a few things The Spirit has told me about the New Testament.
First off, the marriage in which Jesus turned the water into wine was the marriage of Jesus to Mary Magdalene. This is important because His ministry began the day He was married. He was not complete until He was... Now I agree that ceremony and ordinance are not important (even though a ceremony and celebration are just fine), but what is important is that the husband and wife agree in spirit to be husband and wife and commit to one another.

The other thing that I have learned by the Spirit is that this instance where Jesus' feet were anointed with ointment was a type of "sealing". The word is not important but the ordinance is and it is between a man and a wife and God.

Paul said the glory of a woman is her hair... Very important. The woman must be willing to share her glory with her husband and this ordinance is very symbolic. Also a woman's head being veiled is symbolic of her being holy. Like the holy of holies having a veil around it.
What each husband does not now realize is that their wife has attained more glory than they have before coming to this earth and we must submit to them and then they can bestow the honor of sharing their glory when the time comes.
There is still some record that Mary Magdalene was a "hairdresser" and she prepared women's hair for marriage. Many sacred things have been lost but they will return.

nonamefornow said...

Nate--



I am very dubious about the degrees of glory, but then I've told you that--


It was Sidney Rigdon's idea; it wasn't a revelation from Joseph Smith, or little of it was.


I don't see God working that way.

I agree we will all be brothers and sisters. I don't understand the reason for sealing, but I know I have felt the powerful desire of infants to be sealed to parents--


I have felt the powerful desire of deceased adults to be baptized.


The endowment ceremony was something to get through--

Yes, everyone will be adults--


I don't believe I will need to be sealed to Father and Mother in Heaven--


but then I think *we* all carry sealing beyond what it was intended.


I believe there will be families, huge, healed families--


and, of course, not everyone will be in his/her family of birth; some people won't want to be--

and have that right not to be--


I have seen people without families, and it is a terrible thing--

That's all I know, but I don't except the degrees of glory; they came from Rigdon, who was not, exactly, stable.

It never rang true; I always was disturbed by D&C 76--


but that is just me; maybe others have loved it--

if so, well--


I think sealing is kind of a reaffirmation of: "I love this person and want him/her for a parent or a spouse"--


if that person abuses anyone to whom he/she has been sealed, I believe that sealing in negated--


but I don't believe I will be wandering around in heaven without 'ties'--


there are people who were in this life for me as a child (grandparents, especially) who were incredibly kind to me, protected me, taught me invaluable things and never abused me--


I really look forward to seeing them.


I don't believe my earthly ties to them will be erased, somehow, by death--


I don't want anyone else's grandparents; I never saw any I thought were very nice people; mine were perfect for me. In MY case, God knew what He was doing--

I do have relatives, especially one sibling who spent our childhood bullying me, around whom I am not certain I want to be, but he's also completely uninterested in heaven and pretty much in God.


Alan Rock Waterman said...

Friar Tuck, you know the rules. You post here, you get deleted. (Yes, everyone knows that was you this morning.)

Honestly, what is this obsession you have with following me around the internet day and night?

(Don't answer. I'll just delete it.)

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Calleen Bataiff said...

@FT

The kind of Mormon you should be is like all the other Mormons out there. Just be happy to sit in the fog, pat each other on the back for all the great work they've done each Sunday in being the kind of latter-day saint that God loves more than anyone else in the world, and blindly follow a man that his cronies call a prophet, shouting all is well in Zion!!!

My thoughts on your position is, will you do us all a favor and crawl back into the hole you came from. No one here is interested in your point of view.

We are interested in coming to further light and knowledge through the Spirit of God, not listen to you or any other man.

Thank you!!!!

Nobody Ever said...



"You are trying to force them to behave as you believe they should"

There you go again Rock, trying to control the Lord's corporation and change it's doctrines, AGAIN! Shame on you.


What a self deluded fool.
He is just adolescent, and drunk on the koolaid. Do not try to reason with him, he is not interested. He will intentionally twist any attempt you make to reason with him. To distract and derail further discussion. This is no place for little ones that are not prepared to be weaned from their gospel milk. The internet is a scary place for those not prepared to discover and accept the truth.

Could you imagine if he were to discover that our entire temple endowment is posted on you tube, for the whole world to see.

Please just continue to remove his sad attempt to manipulate the grown ups that are trying to have a discussion.

"Ah, the internet is wonderful. isn't it. Any idiot with a computer can say the most ridiculous things and get away with it."

...for a few hours anyway. :)

MajJohnButtrick said...

@FT
You missed your calling. You'd make a good Nazi. You're all about following authority and the rules without understanding the principles behind the rules. May God have mercy on your poor pitiful deluded soul.

BK said...

FT,

It seems you have forgotten that Christ said to 1st 'prove' they really are "the Lord's anointed", before following them or giving them the time of day.

And they have proven over & over again that they aren't Christ's disciples.

But even if they are false prophets, God would not strike them down, for He uses just such prophets to test the people, to see who can be led astray or who has Charity & thus can see through them.

Sander said...

LOL, Calleen! You remind me of the prophetess/general Deborah in the Old Testament--kicking Philistine ass and takin' names.

Seriously, Mr. Tuck, couldn't we just agree to disagree and you find another group? You find no love nor respect here, and we're a fairly diverse bunch of folks. You're arguments find no traction here. If you secretly work at the COB and are here just to stir things up, well, a pox upon your progeny, sir. If you believe Rock is wrong, consider taking him up on his public request to show him from scripture where his understanding of doctrine is in error. If I were in your area I'd invite you over for a barbecue, man, but your comments here are a non-starter for me.

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PNW_DPer said...

Ah yes, Godwin's Law, the cry of those who absolutely do not want to learn from the lessons of history!

If you do not want to learn from, or be teachable, from the the very real lessons of history, just cry "Godwin's Law" to shut down the discourse.

Calleen Bataiff said...

@Rock

Weren't you going to delete FT comments? Why is he still showing up here? Isn't there some kind of flag that can come up in this site that automatically recognizes and shuts out individuals? I'm sure there is.

I guess the other option is, if we as a group just ignore everything FT posts maybe he'll get bored and just go away.

I vote to boycott FT. How about it, everyone?

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