tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post9108990976184525587..comments2024-03-13T12:52:19.391-07:00Comments on Pure Mormonism: Reinventing Your Sundays, Part 2: An Alternative To Staying HomeAlan Rock Watermanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comBlogger134125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-62013525436632346862013-07-07T22:00:30.623-07:002013-07-07T22:00:30.623-07:00Financial transparency would cause so many problem...Financial transparency would cause so many problems for our church. It would rip away the wool from people like my TBMs husband's eyes and maybe finally he would let me help choose where are alms go to support the needy.<br><br>What you haven't touched on in what the three hour block does to kill all joy in children. We focus so much on behavior that the only spirit most children feel is the spirit of disapproval. Ask any eleven year old boy what they think about primary and you will not hear joy and excitementbrbhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03913159827055028514noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-83678032788190173422013-02-01T17:49:01.664-08:002013-02-01T17:49:01.664-08:00The Stake President's website is satirical. He...The Stake President's website is satirical. He is not a real stake president.Alan Rock Watermanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-76613497376654549902013-02-01T14:39:59.467-08:002013-02-01T14:39:59.467-08:00After reading the profile of the "stake pres&...After reading the profile of the "stake pres" and reading a bit of his blog, i only have one question: Are you for real?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-14337007987608566662011-10-07T06:58:11.678-07:002011-10-07T06:58:11.678-07:00Rock. First comment on one of your posts. Been rea...Rock. First comment on one of your posts. Been reading quite a few over recent days, and really like your style and views. Your sentiments about church meetings are well considered, and applicable, certainly down under in Australia. Maybe they are less so in some of the less developed "markets", where everything is new and exciting. But in terms of the Sacrament and sunday school meetings I attend, my feeling is that what's missing is the light and truth pure mormonism contains. And that it is, and was, the expounding of those principles that drove the joyful interactions of the saints, and therefore their enthusiasm to be a community. Gospel scholarship is so dead it's not funny. And this has left us all feeling rather BLAH about church meetings. Giving lip service to each other about how much we enjoyed bro. this or that's talk, or lesson. What a bunch of donkeys we can be at times.<br>My observation is that three things bring the rushing of the spirit into the sacrament meetings I attend: 1) Pure testimonies of the gospel, and conversion. Not travel logs or platitudes by gratitude. But pure unadulterated testimony. That comes in our ward via recent converts, and is delivered in the same spirit that this whole restoration was underpinned by. 2) Sermons on the precious doctrines of the restoration - and I'm not talking about principles. But doctrine. However, getting a bishopric with enough insight and understanding themselves to give out a talk topic that draws out these teachings is sadly too rare. 3) Honesty. People who have the courage to get up on the stand and tell us where they erred, and how the gospel of jesus christ, and his atonement, helped them to overcome their errors. Heaven forbid anyone should ever CONFESS to a failing...but I guarantee that when that does happen, and someone admits to an imperfection, the spirit is there, the love towards each member is raised, and we are all left feeling better people. Which is precisely the point of our sunday meetings.TheChiefnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-12368618315132581382011-07-30T14:43:04.805-07:002011-07-30T14:43:04.805-07:00I think the sameI think the samemormonismohttp://estudiosud.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-5557098725253016202011-07-11T11:54:43.097-07:002011-07-11T11:54:43.097-07:00This reminds me of when the Lord praised the unjus...This reminds me of when the Lord praised the unjust steward, because he had done wisely, saying, "For the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light."<br><br>In other words, Christians who should know the Lord are not even fellowshipping as well as the heathen.Unknownhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08262692590216934594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-60839716547284801022011-07-09T15:25:12.610-07:002011-07-09T15:25:12.610-07:00This serves as a very good demonstration of how di...This serves as a very good demonstration of how different people are looking for different things.<br><br>What I am looking for causes me to hold sentiments similar to recent commenters "whitehusky" and "Me from Cali". I have long held a negative view of Unity (a Jackson County, Missouri based organization, hmmm) because it doesn't lead people to Christ. Unity teaches that people are inherently good, as opposed to my core belief that, as a human being, I am corrupt by nature, needing a savior, because I could never be good enough to deserve a positive afterlife on my own merits. To me, any feel-good-ism or humanitarian service that a religious organization may engage in are peripheral, facilitating salvation is the real objective.<br><br>As a youthful religious seeker making the rounds in the Bay Area, I once showed up at a Unity building for a class advertized on a telephone recording. (How did we manage in the days before websites?) The recording didn't mention that they charge money for the class. I didn't expect that from a church so I didn't bring any. Even the Scientologists didn't charge admission at the door on first contact. I looked around at the others waiting outside, they didn't seem particularly religious, some were even smoking cigarettes. They were more like what I was used to seeing in line at any secular function. Unimpressed, I left.<br><br>Rock, if Unity is a community that provides an atmosphere that enhances your own personal spiritual experiences, good for you for finding it.<br><br>I've got my eye out in case I discover a new Joseph Smith, with a better restoration. I doubt there is, so Utah Mormon culture is the best I could find.WasatchIntercepthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04476952963264897864noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-89636647727488144982011-06-26T16:32:54.861-07:002011-06-26T16:32:54.861-07:00I'd like to bear my testimony. I know the Corp...I'd like to bear my testimony. I know the Corporation of the President of the Church is true. I know it's the only true and living corporation on the face of the earth. I know we have a living CEO today who speaks with World Leaders face to face, and gives them secret handshakes. I know the Corporation is guided by modern consulting firms and lawyers, and that the words we hear in general conference were approved of by public relations experts. In the name of Thomas S. Monson. Amen.ldsapostasyhttp://ldsapostasy.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-60733207862004611072011-06-13T23:14:05.656-07:002011-06-13T23:14:05.656-07:00Me from Cali,That was indeed an odd experience you...Me from Cali,<br>That was indeed an odd experience you describe. On the other hand the service we just attended was stranger than usual too. The regular pastor was out of town and the guest was a bit eccentric for my taste. Not the kind of service I would have been comfortable bringing a first time visitor to and telling them that was typical, as it was not.<br><br>But then, I guess oddity is to be expected in an open faith like Unity.<br><br>I'm guessing Unity is a loose affiliation with very little emphasis on "doctrinal purity" so perhaps things are quite different in other parts of the country. I don't know, I can only speak of my limited exposure here in Sacramento.<br><br>Whitehusky, your point is well taken. But keep in mind I don't present my experience at Unity as a panacea, just something quite a bit more spirit-filled than I have experienced in LDS meetings in the past 3 decades. Emphasis in the Unity I've attended is on "Spirit;" I presume because no matter one's personal dogma, the reality of a spiritual presence is that one unifying experience most of us relate to. Lack of a central conforming view of God I think is what attracts many adherents. They don't want to be told how to believe.<br><br>Doctrine is not taught in the Sunday meetings, though classes are available throughout the week that tend to be geared to particular outlooks. For instance, on Thursdays there is currently a study group on The Way of Mastery which I understand focuses on Jesus as the Master.<br><br>My guess is that Unity exists to allow people with disparate views of God to assemble together without judgment to celebrate the higher spiritual power in the Universe. It's probably assumed that members study and learn from the scriptures they are most comfortable with on their own time. There is no central doctrinal authority at Unity to tell people what is right about their beliefs and what is wrong. You're expected to work that out on your own if so inclined. Unity is more of a gathering together.Rock Watermanhttp://puremormonism.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-61600160937758580592011-06-13T16:24:31.831-07:002011-06-13T16:24:31.831-07:00Hey, Rock, I really like your posts. Having said ...Hey, Rock, I really like your posts. Having said this, after reading what you said about ‘Unity’ my wife and I went to a service this Sunday. However, we did not have the same experience :-(<br><br>You can read about it here and I’d be interested in any comment(s) you may have:<br><br>http://forum.newordermormon.org/viewtopic.php?p=299499#299499<br><br>Oh, well, back to drawing board.Me from Calihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17092831822080476254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-80803805293108087892011-06-09T20:02:25.570-07:002011-06-09T20:02:25.570-07:00Justin,I believe that D&C 89, verse 6, qualifi...Justin,<br>I believe that D&C 89, verse 6, qualifies the strong drink statement to allow only wine made from grapes as the component of the sacrament.<br><br>I would be interested in any references you have of the Kirtland ceremonies. I haven't studied that topic.spektatorhttp://www.justandtrue.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-44599910706555066032011-06-09T11:00:39.091-07:002011-06-09T11:00:39.091-07:00I didn't see anything in the Unity Church expe...I didn't see anything in the Unity Church experience that indicated the church rejoices in the joy of our salvation through the Lord our God. Neither did I see anything about praising the Lord's goodness or honoring and obeying him. Jesus Christ is the God of all creation. The problem with the Mormon church now is they've shoved Jesus in the back seat and tried to put another member of the Godhead in the driver's seat, all the while ignoring what the Lord wants (or what Heavenly Father wants, for that matter).<br><br>I'm afraid the celebrate-diversity-touchy-feely church service just isn't for me. If you're not praising the Lord and rejoicing in his goodness, I don't see the point.<br><br>So while the Unity Church is probably nice, it's not doing what really needs to be done.<br><br>My opinion is if you don't agree with the Lord and run things the way he wants them run, you're not doing a good job. The Mormon church certainly isn't paying much attention to the Lord, but it could. There's nothing much wrong with the hymns. The Lord likes them. They could be sung with more zest, that's for sure. As for the talks, they are insipid most of the time. I really wish someone would get up and quote from Isaiah with the fire of the Spirit. When was the last time someone did that?<br><br>I bet the Unity Church didn't do it either.whitehuskyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10462985530221490302noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-92042945066367339722011-06-08T21:07:29.004-07:002011-06-08T21:07:29.004-07:00thanks for sharing this wonderful post... =D Rega...thanks for sharing this wonderful post... =D <br>Regards,<br>Mr Lonely from www.lonelyreload.com ~ XDMr Lonelyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08251562118337533762noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-11382005230179917822011-06-06T06:37:47.785-07:002011-06-06T06:37:47.785-07:00Spek:I find it interesting that D&C 89 also pr...Spek:<br><br>I find it interesting that D&C 89 also prescribes strong drink to be used in sacraments [plural, i.e. not just referring to the Lord's supper].<br><br>It is my belief that this is referring to the washing ordinances as began in the Kirtland temple -- and brings a different perspective to the instruction that strong drink is for the washing of the body.Justinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15225916610503780073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-43335950105168357182011-06-06T06:34:31.638-07:002011-06-06T06:34:31.638-07:00When settling the Utah territory, Brigham Young se...When settling the Utah territory, Brigham Young sent men to what is now St. George with the mandate to plant grapes so that they could produce wine for the sacrament. However, the current LDS church no longer has a mechanism for making/providing wine for general congregational use during sacrament services.<br><br>The “wherefore” in D&C 27:5 is there to indicate that Christ is saying that the reason He wants wine/strong drink to be made new among the saints in the kingdom on this earth — is that He will be drinking wine with the saints on this earth when He returns.<br><br>I’ve heard missionaries use the scripture, “He will suddenly come to His temple,” as a evidence that the LDS church will be the only Christian denomination fit to receive the Lord b/c only we build temples for Him to come to.<br><br>However, the same is true for theses verses in D&C 27 — we can only have claim on being the people fit to receive the Lord when He comes if we are making wine new among ourselves for Him to partake of when He arrives.Justinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15225916610503780073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-62210547499946088072011-06-05T18:42:49.260-07:002011-06-05T18:42:49.260-07:00Dave,I was keying off the comment in verse 6 which...Dave,<br>I was keying off the comment in verse 6 which states that the sacrament 'should' be wine made of grapes. I guess I thought that was reasonably clear on what 'liquid' should represent the blood of Christ based on that scripture.spektatorhttp://www.justandtrue.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-88361216637038325812011-06-05T16:21:37.015-07:002011-06-05T16:21:37.015-07:00It still didn't matter what's used. What&#...It still didn't matter what's used. What's said in Section 89 is that wine is something that shouldn't be drunk regularly, except when used for the sacrament. But nothing's said about, "Oh, and you can only use wine and nothing else for the sacrament," there.<br><br>Remember in Section 27 that the Lord warns about buying wine from the church's enemies (not explained why but various reasons can be figured out).Dave P.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-35149635783411591122011-06-05T15:21:16.974-07:002011-06-05T15:21:16.974-07:00Steven,If it didn't matter what should be used...Steven,<br>If it didn't matter what should be used then why did the Lord state in section 89 (almost 3 years later):<br><br>"5 That inasmuch as any man drinketh wine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him.<br>6 And, behold, this should be wine, yea, pure wine of the grape of the vine, of your own make.<br><br>It would seem to me that, at best, the use of water is acceptable in times when the use of 'wine of your own make' is not feasible, as described in section 27. <br><br>I would think that if the church is able to spend $3B on a shopping center, it should be able to make its own wine for the sacrament.spektatorhttp://www.justandtrue.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-23203210591958602552011-06-05T14:30:39.914-07:002011-06-05T14:30:39.914-07:00Really? Section 27:2 says that Jesus said that it...Really? Section 27:2 says that Jesus said that it "mattereth not what is used"? Well, hey, guys and ladies, if the Big Man Himself said that then why not Shrimp on the Barby and Plum Wine for Sacrament? Plus pure intent, of course. Come on, folks. This is Scripture!!!Steven Lesterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01285355643172321289noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-63052521267207609932011-06-05T11:30:38.362-07:002011-06-05T11:30:38.362-07:00Here is a more complete quote from Joseph about Pe...Here is a more complete quote from Joseph about Pelatiah Brown: <br><br>"I did not like the old man being called up for erring in doctrine. It looks too much like the Methodist, and not like the Latter-day Saints. Methodists have creeds which a man must believe or be asked out of their church. I want the liberty of thinking and believing as I please. It feels so good not to be trammeled. It does not prove that a man is not a good man because he errs in doctrine." (DHC 5: 340.)Johnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-59939373083828448162011-06-05T08:24:21.060-07:002011-06-05T08:24:21.060-07:00Aaron, thanks for catching that; I meant to refere...Aaron, thanks for catching that; I meant to reference it. That's part of a response the Prophet made when the Nauvoo High Council attempted to discipline Pelatiah Brown for erring in doctrine. The source is History of the Church 5:340. You can find Joseph expounding on the correct doctrine on the topic Brown got wrong in Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith pg 287-289.Alan Rock Watermanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-73313489496307342952011-06-05T06:18:31.373-07:002011-06-05T06:18:31.373-07:00Hey Rock -You have a reference to the quote about ...Hey Rock -<br><br>You have a reference to the quote about the Methodists and believing as one pleases?Aaronnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-63684056951838619752011-06-04T23:17:17.435-07:002011-06-04T23:17:17.435-07:00Fun and interesting to read the thread. My own th...Fun and interesting to read the thread. My own thoughts and comments:<br><br>LDSA makes the strongest case by his scripture explanations of how the sacrament should be administered, but a restructuring of the size of the wards would need to be done as suggested in order to have one person serve the congregation in a timely manner. Even though a good case was given for only one passer, 3 Ne 18: 4 states that Jesus commanded that “they” (referring to the 12 disciples) give unto the multitude, which doesn’t follow the pattern of only one person passing to the whole congregation; so the pattern of one passer may not be a firm requirement. <br><br>Inpire’s list<br>1. Words of Prayer: Agreed but would someone need give that slight nod to the Elder as an indication that he said the prayer correctly? Ha Ha. Which, by the way, reminds me of what was once explained to me why the sacrament is passed first to the presiding authority, which is a symbol that the sacrament was blessed properly; not that I believe it, but I was once told that non the less. <br>2. Use of wine: Wine is most symbolic and preferred liquid for the ordinance but I’ll allow for the intent of section 27:2 and say that it mattereth not what is used.<br>3. Repentant and Baptized people partake: Agreed<br>4. Pure intent: Agreed<br>5. Administered by Priest or Elder: Agreed. I’m not inclined to think that anybody can administer the sacrament as some had suggested in the Link. 3 Ne 18 seems to make it clear that authority is needed since he commanded his 12 disciples (who He had give authority) to administer the sacrament. Section 20 also states the Elders and Priest are to minister the sacrament.<br>6. Partaking until filled: Agreed; both physically and spiritually. What a great experience sacrament meeting would be if we centered it on being filled; and continued being filled by spiritual words or manifestations of the spirit or outwardly love. I'm interested in how many readers of this blog actually have their own tribal or family sacrament meeting. Did the first time doing it include a spiritual manifestation of it being a good/great thing or did it take getting use to, or maybe it was a turnoff. I'd like to get a better feeling for doing it as a family/tribe. <br><br>Of note is that on the first day of Jesus’ appearance, the Nephite disciples didn’t seem to have problem getting enough food for the sacrament. One possible reason is that if the congregation had originally gathered for a New Year temple ritual/celebration as suggested by Denver Snuffer in his first book, then food for such a large crowd would have already been planned and ready for the large group. On the second day, the multitude was larger and the food appears to be eaten up the first day, so Jesus performed the miracle of producing food and wine for the sacrament when there was none originally available. Thus a pattern was shown that both preparation for the sacrament or miracles during the sacrament are acceptable.<br><br>As for making the Sunday block more meaningful; I for one still enjoy meeting with the saints on Sunday. I often get restless, and more than not I slough Sunday school, but I still like meeting with the saints, singing hymns, and partaking the sacrament; and feel something positive by attending church. For me I believe the Sunday block ritual has some power to it. Rock’s experience at the Unity Church is certainly an indication of our LDS meeting shortcomings and it could be much more powerful if done differently. I really wonder what would happen if a bishop was to start doing none traditional things during sacrament meeting, like use bigger pieces of bread, or being more spirited or calling people to speak by the spirit ext. Has anyone heard of such a bishop being released for doing such things?<br><br>JohnJohnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-65711457006836048292011-06-04T21:57:04.601-07:002011-06-04T21:57:04.601-07:00If we did have name tags the decree would come tha...If we did have name tags the decree would come that they could not use first names but must say Brother and Sister. They would not allow us to be so informal as to use (and actually learn) first names<br><br>Me: Hello Brother Waterman welcome to our ward.<br><br>You: Well thank you, Brother Reid, so nice to meet you.<br><br>Just isn't the same, is it...rebhttp://praxeum.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-44402726912419935192011-06-03T09:58:05.926-07:002011-06-03T09:58:05.926-07:00Forraging,One of the parables from the Savior that...Forraging,<br><br>One of the parables from the Savior that people tend to conveniently forget about is the parable of the pharisee and publican in Luke 18. It supports Young's ideas as well.Dave P.noreply@blogger.com