tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post88773909176558223..comments2024-03-28T15:23:18.071-07:00Comments on Pure Mormonism: Infallible Authority, Chapter SeventeenAlan Rock Watermanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-32086013606554047182013-06-05T13:59:43.050-07:002013-06-05T13:59:43.050-07:00Zo-ma-rah,
The Church is correct in its current p...Zo-ma-rah,<br /><br />The Church is correct in its current policy of "building Zion" wherever the membership resides. In order to be a light to the world, the membership of the Church must be <i>in</i> the world. If every Mormon were to depart from India or England for "Zion", how would those left behind ever hear of it? By missionaries alone? With no examples to scrutinize?<br /><br />The Church membership, no doubt, is not strong enough (yet) to establish Zion. Were the membership today to be concentrated in one place, would all lustfulness cease? Would all covetousness and wickedness and strife depart? Hardly. Our "Zion" would be little different from Provo or Logan, Utah (or any other city where "mostly Mormons" now live -- in other words, a nice place, but <i>not</i> Zion).<br /><br />It will take more than just moving together to make Zion. It will require <i>conversion</i>. And <i>that</i> will require a purging and a purifying we have not yet experienced.Good Willhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09741814252871576371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-33906894402127044422013-06-05T13:47:52.892-07:002013-06-05T13:47:52.892-07:00Again, doesn't Mr. Dewey see that even he is s...Again, doesn't Mr. Dewey see that <i>even he</i> is subject to the snare of apostasy? All he had to do was shut up! Are not our military men expected to keep secrets? Do not government officials require allegiance to their file leader? Why should the Church be any different?<br /><br />Was the doctrinal point Mr. Dewey sought to reveal so important as to fight the Brethren? Didn't Lorenzo Snow reveal the truth "As man is, God once was. As God is, man may be", but was advised to keep it to himself? <br /><br />Everything Mr. Dewey says here rings true -- with the exception of his self-righteous stance against the Brethren. He didn't have to challenge authority. Did <i>Christ</i> tell him to do that? (Or was that his <i>ego</i> speaking?) Is Dewey suggesting that the Brethren now lack, not just power, but priesthood authority, too?<br /><br />That is mighty presumptuous, I believe. I fear to make such a claim, knowing that with the same saw I slice the Brethren, I sever myself from the Church.Good Willhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09741814252871576371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-86793055755877651272013-01-13T14:19:55.853-08:002013-01-13T14:19:55.853-08:00I think it was Moshe Dyane or another of the early...I think it was Moshe Dyane or another of the early leaders of the state of Israel who said, when a neutral venue for negotiations with the Arabs was being considered, "why don't we go to Salt Lake City; we're all Gentiles there."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-68530832168209408272013-01-12T12:47:56.933-08:002013-01-12T12:47:56.933-08:00Well, I don't wish to belabor this any further...Well, I don't wish to belabor this any further either, but it seems to me that Nephi is expressing his frustration over his own people. He calls them "the Jews" the same way I might refer to my fellow Mormons. The fact that he refers to them by their common label does not mean thinks he is not one of them. And I wouldn't expect him to say anything such as "by the way, I'm one of them" because that was a given. I believe Nephi was referring to them as "the Jews" primarily because he was talking about the people back there in his home country of Judea. <br /><br />I don't think Lehi was rejected by the people (the Jews) because he was seen as an outsider. I really couldn't say for certain whether in Lehi's day everyone who was of the remaining tribes (Mostly Judah, but with remnants of Benjamin, Levi, and Joseph) and who lived in the area of Judea all considered themselves "Jews"; but by the time of Christ that was certainly the case for most denizens except the Samaritans, who were considered some type of mongrel mixed breed.<br /><br />Anyway, I really don't like using the phrase "I guess we'll have to agree to disagree," but I think we both do agree this issue isn't worth the time either of us is spending arguing it. So let's agree to disagree.Alan Rock Watermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-53211277502051415712013-01-12T08:43:37.533-08:002013-01-12T08:43:37.533-08:00Not so, my friend. At no point does Nephi refer to...Not so, my friend. At no point does Nephi refer to himself as a Jew, even though he was from Judea. He was, however, quite clear that he was of the house of Israel (tribe of Joseph/Manassah). Not wanting to repeat myself, but following your logic (and the scriptures are very clear on this) he would have to refer to himself and his people as either Jews or Gentiles; and he did neither.<br />I'm not picking an argument for the sake of it (believe me, I have much better things to do with my time as I'm sure you do too), but it is clear to me that you are mistaken on this point.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-35444905090761000182013-01-10T13:43:00.246-08:002013-01-10T13:43:00.246-08:00No my friend, the Jews never referred to the other...No my friend, the Jews never referred to the other tribes as Gentiles. Strangely enough they referred to the Gentiles as Gentiles.<br />Besides, we are not talking about the Jews as Nephi was not a Jew and knew it. Therefore, according to your reasoning he would have included himself in the generic label of "Gentile", which he clearly did not.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-65215727503479631462013-01-09T11:36:38.251-08:002013-01-09T11:36:38.251-08:00If you are the same "Anonymous" with who...If you are the same "Anonymous" with whom I have been having a discussion recently on these pages, I would appreciate if you would use your name or at least a username so I know who I'm talking with.<br /><br />Perhaps it was not JJ Dewey who is proceeding from a false assumption. As I just responded (to you, I believe)in Chapter 18, Judah referred to the other tribes of Israel who had been taken into captivity by the Assyrians as "gentiles," as the word means "other nations," or put another way, "nations other than Judah."<br /><br />Most of the seed of Albion (British, Scots, and Irish) understood themselves to have been descendants of Ephraim, and heirs to the promises God made to all the house of Israel. The early latter-day Saints, most of whom came from the British Isles as did most early Americans, saw themselves as literal latter day Israel. That's why they often called themselves modern Israel. <br /><br />Some bible scholars believe the Scandinavians to have been descendants of Dan, due to the vikings culture and form of government being similar in form to that of ancient Israel. Also the preponderance of the name "Dan" found all over Denmark (meaning "Dan's Land") The Danube River, etc. Food for thought. <br /><br />Rock Watermannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-36389749604627908652013-01-09T10:22:58.407-08:002013-01-09T10:22:58.407-08:00Have to say I think this article is poor.
For a st...Have to say I think this article is poor.<br />For a start, I looked up D&C 101:77 and it says nothing about "limited government".<br />I also believe the Gentiles to whom Nephi refers are not LDS. We are not Gentiles. The nations (US, UK etc) are, but we are not. We are Israelites by either lineage or adoption. This is LDS doctrine and is scriptually sound.<br />So that puts paid to that. Make an assumptive error at the beginning and the whole case is weakened.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-35541955386073889422012-04-29T11:37:27.600-07:002012-04-29T11:37:27.600-07:00Well written. Echoes many of the things I have be...Well written. Echoes many of the things I have been thinking for years.<br /><br />However (there I go again)--<br /><br />I think that it's interesting that back in the late 60s/early 70s "in the church" there were quite a few people who taught this truth about the two churches and the kingdom of God.<br /><br />I had an institute teacher at a large institute at a major state university who taught it.<br /><br />He was a wise man; I remember how powerfully I felt the spirit as he taught this, and how NEW it was to me.<br /><br />I think that some of us, many of us, met wise people when we were young--<br /><br />and the years have allowed our thoughts to "marinate" and season and grow, sort of like compost--<br /><br />I have much to thank Brother __________ for. He was an obscure man. I've never seen his name since, not in anything I've read that has anything to do with the CES, etc.<br /><br />He was a quiet institute of religion professor, and he spoke the unvarnished truth.<br /><br />Godly people are quietly living out their lives everywhere. Well, maybe some NOT so quietly--<br /><br />:)<br /><br />There was a time when I felt rage towards a church leader who deeply hurt one of my children. In my anger I said I wanted to see him suffer. Well, he did end up suffering terribly. And I was not happy about it. I had to let that rage go. It was not helping me or helping my family. And it was not Christlike. I can't pretend to follow Jesus Christ if I hold on to those feelings, though I know that it took years of prayer to get rid of them. I feel better now. I do not look forward to having to witness against that man, but I'm afraid I will, yet, have to. :(Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-87057566282422608672012-01-21T00:29:34.644-08:002012-01-21T00:29:34.644-08:00Yeah, I hate the Church too.Yeah, I hate the Church too.Steven Lesterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01285355643172321289noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-45058004820561533792012-01-21T00:01:27.034-08:002012-01-21T00:01:27.034-08:00Please do it in a gentle, loving manner, even as T...Please do it in a gentle, loving manner, even as The Christ would. No name-calling or impatience. Remember to suffer for a long, long time.Steven Lesterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01285355643172321289noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-90438384448490181152012-01-20T18:12:49.214-08:002012-01-20T18:12:49.214-08:00If Moroni were here today he would call the Mormon...If Moroni were here today he would call the Mormons Kingmen, they follow a man rather than the gift of the Holy Ghost, "and cursed is he that putteth his faith in the arm of the flesh". They have declared their prophet and leader infailable, a King that can change scripture, that is above the law because he can change the law. Moroni threatened such to be put to the sword and rightly so. By your apathy you are compliscent in their crimes, in the comfort of your societies you defy God and think you are insulated from condemnation. You were commanded to be free from the blood of this generation, you are your brothers keeper. The occupiers have more honor than you and you mock them. You give them no thought unless you call them rabble rousers worthy of incarceration. Soon destruction will be at your doors to wake you from your slumber, it will be too late for many of you, your lamps are empty.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-90333240855245750102012-01-20T17:08:43.475-08:002012-01-20T17:08:43.475-08:00Those that reject such a great gift as the fullnes...Those that reject such a great gift as the fullness will be judged for not takeing advantage of their oppurtunity. Not just because they missed out on the summer time to reap but also and mainly the destruction that their pacifist ways have reaked upon the innocent. They have paid tax's to the kingdom of the devil (federal reserve) thereby building up evil and genocide in the world. Paying for unjust wars, murdering children and mothers, maiming for life, children of God. And when a good latter day saint refuses to pay those illegal tax's they are excommunicated. Those psuedo prophets deserve nothing but total disdain for their hypocracy. There are many more examples, some hard to prove others just as blatant. I know for a fact that there are pedofiles in the upper echelon of the church, I have seen and have on file police records of these crimes, These were down loaded to my computer by a former police officer in case he was murdered. When he left law enforcement and went back into the military he had access to military intelligence and was able to see how the church was out to destroy him. This is an example of things hard to prove. When they excommunicated me I was refused the right to defend myself as outlined in d&c 102, it was a kangaroo court. They destroyed my family, they in essence took every thing that I had. If I call it like it is does that mean I am bitter? No more bitter than Christ was when He braided His whip before He threw out the money changers.<br /><br />When men trample on the laws of God they go into darkness and how great is that darkness! In that darkness they will do anything, they are subjected to the devil, they hide their acts by oppression and you never know about it. This has become the situation in Zion and they say "all is well in Zion yea Zion prosperth" and the Kingdom is taken by deception.<br /><br />I will be forgiveing and charitable when I go to hell to retrieve them because by that time they will have paid the uttermost farthing. meanwhile there is a great battle rageing and the innocent are paying a great price because the collecive conciousness of the Saints has not awaken. All is needed is for the majority to look upon the Brazen serpent to be awaken. This will cause a fundamental shift and introduce a higher reality. The nakedness of the psuedo leaders of the LDS will be exposed for the worthlessness that they are.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-18479931069416581822012-01-20T15:05:45.772-08:002012-01-20T15:05:45.772-08:00Gentiles love their art, their performances, their...Gentiles love their art, their performances, their architecture and structure. That's all fine and good until the point when we start replacing these things as a substitute for God, claiming that the play act is the real thing. At that point it becomes idol worship and priestcraft. Unfortunately, we have fallen into that trap. We parade down the street showing off our fine apparel, when the truth is, we're naked as can be. Some are beginning to see it. More and more will soon.<br /><br />That being said, Anon @ 12:29, your vitriol is palpable. The law of reciprocity says that what we put out there will come back to us. I would hope that you and others who are bitter because of the hypocrisy will be forgiving, patient and charitable while members start to wake up. IMO, the anger and judgment on one side is no better than the self-righteousness and closed-mindedness on the other. Perhaps you didn't have a soft landing when you were cast out of the church, but wouldn't you have liked one? Couldn't you have a little compassion for those who are still in the church? They're not worthless, but just at a different point than you. <br /><br />That's what the grinding wheel (aka the church who oversees the carnal commandments) is for, so that we can realize that the arm of flesh will get us nowhere but in circles with blisters on our feet, until we turn to Christ and take on His burden, which is easy and light.Inspirehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07915227658956979023noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-50815729367402962242012-01-20T12:29:27.822-08:002012-01-20T12:29:27.822-08:00Isa:66-5 Hear the word of the Lord, ye that trembl...Isa:66-5 Hear the word of the Lord, ye that tremble at His word; Your BRETHREN that HATED you, that CAST you out for my names sake, said, let the Lord be glorified: but He shall appear to YOUR JOY, and THEY shall be ASHAMED. <br /><br />I regret that I had but one life to be excommunicated from that worthless bunch, they worship the arm of the flesh and are barely above the animal kingdom in reasoning abilities. The stench of their selfrighteousness is as filthy rags, they aspire for the honors of men and love their darness. They are condemned each and everyone and the time of their repentance is over. They shall be pruned from the vineyard and cast into the fire, they shall have neither root nor branch.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-70762837927483049022012-01-20T10:49:58.735-08:002012-01-20T10:49:58.735-08:00I believe that we can & God expects us to live...I believe that we can & God expects us to live, all the Celestial laws of Zion on our own today, no matter where we are, member of the Church or not. <br /><br />Only those who are already living these high laws individually, will even be invited to Zion when it's established as a group someday.<br /><br />There is no Celestial law of Zion that any member or the Church or non-member can't easily live today, no matter where they are in the world.<br /><br />Anyone can live even the law of consecration individually & give all their excess money & assets directly to the widows & fatherless around them, as the spirit directs them. <br /><br />If we are righteous enough & have the Holy Spirit as our guide, we don't need to do it through a Bishop or Church leader to care for & support the widows & fatherless, especially if Bishops or the Church isn't set up to handle it yet or is not trustworthy of handling our excess money. The Spirit can just direct us on how to distribute our money ourselves.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-46647598267240904772012-01-20T08:58:08.435-08:002012-01-20T08:58:08.435-08:00A thought occurred to me. If we throw out the part...A thought occurred to me. If we throw out the part about gathering to the twelve stakes and to New Jerusalem. Then we say that Zion is wherever the Saints gather. Then we still are not building Zion! It is a complete contradiction.<br /><br />If we accept what L-DS leaders say that we are commanded to gather wherever we are(which doesn't make much sense anyway). Then this scripture alone condemns us: “Zion cannot be built up unless it is by the principles of the celestial kingdom.” (D&C 105:5)<br /><br />Are the L-DS people living(or even instructed to live) the principles of the Celestial Kingdom(*cough* Consecration *cough*)? No we are not. Therefor whatever we are building with all the church buildings and temples and millions of membership records IS NOT ZION! It CANNOT be Zion unless it is build up by the principles of the CELESTIAL Kingdom.<br /><br />Saying that we are living lesser laws because we cannot handle higher laws is the EXACT SAME as saying we are not building up Zion because we cannot handle Zion.<br /><br />I am definitely going to call a leader/teacher/instructor out on this next time I hear it.Zo-ma-rahhttp://zomarah.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-12030807172577648892012-01-19T20:20:37.213-08:002012-01-19T20:20:37.213-08:00In regard to priestcrafts. Dewey quotes the book o...In regard to priestcrafts. Dewey quotes the book of Mormon, here is the scripture:<br />“He commanded that there shall be no priestcrafts; for, behold, priestcrafts are that men preach and set themselves up for a light unto the world, that they may get gain and praise of the world; but they seek not the welfare of Zion ... . Wherefore if they should have charity they would not suffer the laborer in Zion to perish.” (2 Nephi 26:29-30)<br /><br />I wrote this in an earlier post, but I'll repeat:<br /><br />Let's compare how the prophets of the church today react to praise from others in general conference vs how Jesus Christ reacted.<br /><br />Prophets today: What I have noticed is silence. They neither acknowledge or rebuke/reprimand those who have praised them. Let me know if you have seen otherwise.<br /><br />Jesus Christ:<br />Let's look at Mark 10:17-18<br /><br />17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?<br /><br />18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.<br /><br />If we believe that our goal is to steadily become more like Jesus, we need to emulate Him. This can be done through following Him and His faithfulness, His love for God, and His humility before God.<br />Jesus, the one and only one in the history of the world, could have legitimately accepted the praise, still did not, and gave all of the praise to the Father.<br /><br />It's important to be humble and acknowledge that the source of all good in our lives in God. Just as there is no growth or life without the physical sunlight, so it is with us in regards to spiritual growth and life.<br /><br />Moroni 7 confirms:<br /><br /> 12 Wherefore, all things which are good cometh of God; and that which is evil cometh of the devil; for the devil is an enemy unto God, and fighteth against him continually, and inviteth and enticeth to sin, and to do that which is evil continually.<br /><br /> 13 But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do good continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and enticeth to do good, and to love God, and to serve him, is inspired of God.<br /><br />Finally, Moroni tells us what it means in our lives to do/be good. It is not simply outward actions. The Lord requires us to be fully converted through Jesus Christ's atonement. He requires our whole souls, and through Jesus Christ, we may be healed and converted. Thus, our desires, our passions, our will may become in line with His will.<br /><br /> 6 For behold, God hath said a man being evil cannot do that which is good; for if he offereth a gift, or prayeth unto God, except he shall do it with real intent it profiteth him nothing.<br /><br /> 7 For behold, it is not counted unto him for righteousness.<br /><br /> 8 For behold, if a man being evil giveth a gift, he doeth it grudgingly; wherefore it is counted unto him the same as if he had retained the gift; wherefore he is counted evil before God.Commander Gidgiddoninoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-44773111301884434252012-01-19T13:17:05.800-08:002012-01-19T13:17:05.800-08:00Interesting, I just read the scripture on the Chur...Interesting, I just read the scripture on the Church of the Lamb of God a week or so ago and mentioned to my wife how I thought it enveloped more than just the LDS people.<br /><br />Just last Sunday in gospel doctrine I was sharing how Eternal life can start in this life and how we need not wait for the life to come to start it from the allegory given by Lehi and interpreted by Nephi. The teacher didn't like that, he mentioned the flaming sword and the tree in the garden of Eden and then didn't let me respond, since that tree in the garden of Eden is the tree for immortality, not eternal life. <br /><br />It's unfortunate that people can't leave the script. This particular teacher that I described above is very much into follow the prophet and area leaders and local leaders. I think part of it is difference in personality, there are the Followers, Leaders, and Loners. I think I fall under the loaner category because I don't much care what leaders say or rather I weigh the opinion with my own thoughts and try to come to my own conclusion. Sometimes it would be nice to rely on the arm of flesh, it would be easier, but I prefer liberty and freedom to that, even though it is harder.<br /><br />Anyways, I'm babbling.Jonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05518762624199557168noreply@blogger.com