tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post8863299599018716380..comments2024-03-28T15:23:18.071-07:00Comments on Pure Mormonism: The Drunkards of EphraimAlan Rock Watermanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comBlogger177125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-78440833892464008922017-02-02T10:19:40.057-08:002017-02-02T10:19:40.057-08:00Also...Prophets and Apostles and even seere are m...Also...Prophets and Apostles and even seere are men like unto all other men....that is: All have weakness of the flesh and are capable of error from time to time. The Church as a whole can be compared to a single soul in that the pathway to perfection is a process brought about like unto ...line upon line...precept upon precept. In other words: Just as a single soul is allowed by the mercies and grace of God to grow here a little...there a little.....In like manner: The Church of Jesus Christ is alloted that mercies and grace also. SO THEN.....LET US NOT LOSE HOPE FOR THOSE IN ERROR...even those in gross error. Repentance may come when the blind ones do hear that which they never considered. This is part of the work of that Mighty and Strong One. But if they repent not after having their eyes and ears opened....Woe unto any such... for such shall be sealed up by Power of Word unto condemnation... and the judgements thereof according to their various offenses. May all choose righteousness. With Love and a great hope for the salvation and restoration of all. Nevertheless...free agency is at play and sadly enough...history teaches that men don't always choose that which bringeth eternal glory....For some love darkness greater than that Light. scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14566578490541402645noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-30302752762726991552017-02-02T09:44:54.300-08:002017-02-02T09:44:54.300-08:00I believe ...even though error certainly exists in...I believe ...even though error certainly exists in the Church of Jesus Christ due to certain lofty ones taking power unto themselves and overcoming the Root and bringing forth certain commandments and doctrines of men and devils...nevertheless; these things will be and are being exposed by certain called and a opportunity of repentance does exist. ..But if those in error or those found to be teaching or clinging to falsehoods or those found to be liars and hypocrites...If these blind ones... after having their eyes opened by the plain and unadulterated Word given unto those sent to correct them... if those in error still yet refuse to repent and obey that Word sent of God through the Holy Ghost by those raised Jewels sent to speak so...then those rebellious souls will bye and bye be cut off and others grafted in the stead thereof. The state of error the Church is to be in in this the end of the Times of the Fullness of the Gentiles is plainly warned of in scripture and those found faithfully watching shall clearly see it. Let us pray that all false leaders within the Church will repent when they are proven as well as those who blindly follow them. Our goal is their repentance and a return to only that which the Holy Ghost bears witness. May we pray for them earnestly in hopes of recovering them that their souls and lives might be spared from the judgements in store for those who attempt to steady the ark yet not according to the conditions and directions of the Holy Ghost. The salvation of all man is our hope...nevertheless...All are free agents to choose according to their own desires and understandings or lack thereof. With love and hope, Scottscotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14566578490541402645noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-36974023194225004882014-10-07T15:15:44.119-07:002014-10-07T15:15:44.119-07:00MR HMFMets,
You'll find the reasons why plura...MR HMFMets,<br /><br />You'll find the reasons why plural marriage became so deeply incorporated into church teaching by reading Denver Snuffer's piece, "Cutting Down the Tree of Life to Make a Wooden Bridge."<br /><br />It's a real eye-opener.<br /><br />https://www.scribd.com/doc/235706812/Cutting-Down-the-Tree-of-LifeAlan Rock Watermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-12901210154288710972014-10-05T13:17:05.017-07:002014-10-05T13:17:05.017-07:00This website, that I came across just recently, lo...This website, that I came across just recently, looks like a goldmine for people who are interested in and searching after the truth, also the comments are interesting. For many years I have been using the internet to study about the things that you don't hear in the church nor learn from the textbooks used in the meetings. It has become quite clear to me that the LDS church has apostatised from the restored Gospel and that it is in a deep crisis right now and that this crisis will only deepen and become more manifest to an increasing number of people, especially in the developed countries where internet is more available.<br />I did'nt investigate this site very thoroughly as yet, but I get to understand that topics like the Kingdom of God (which is not the Church), the 1978 manifesto and the question as to who has the keys of the Prieshood at this moment are not dealt with very much. But so far this site seems very promising for my study of church history and gospel principles. Interesting to experience your critical position against plural marriage. I have similar opinions on that subject, as I consider it merely as a cultural principle and not as a religious law that puts the Gods on high, and I wonder how this thing came incorporated in church teachings at all. But I'll find that out one day.<br />The forum ended abruptly; I wonder why; was a new item posted? I really liked the comments. I have to come back here; regards from the Netherlands, and forgive my language errors (if any).R. Metzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15875261161185193692noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-55587124790313761612014-09-10T08:52:25.151-07:002014-09-10T08:52:25.151-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Jonathan F. Clarkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15336445110874843272noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-729322741819336462014-09-01T12:31:29.187-07:002014-09-01T12:31:29.187-07:00Milo
Thanks for jumping in. Yes the more BK an...Milo<br /><br /> Thanks for jumping in. Yes the more BK and I talk the more I realize we are very close in what we are saying. Desires plus faith produce the Spirit and love which always brings the works of God. <br /> I believe the only way works without faith brings faith is if people realize at some point that their works are not bringing them happiness or progress internally. Eventually God brings them to the point where they realize that nothing they can do of themselves changes them and they have to truly turn to Christ and exercise faith for the first time so they can begin receiving His grace. <br /> My take on hope is that you have to have faith first. When you have faith you will receive the Holy Ghost, which will reveal things to you. Then you can have hope in the things the Holy Ghost reveals.<br /> For instance if the Holy Ghost has told me that I have the gift to be healed, I can hope in that but I will not have a sure knowledge of it until I actually exercise the gift and then I am healed.<br /> If God promises me by the Holy Ghost that I will be exalted. I have hope in that promise but it is not perfected until I actually receive exaltation.<br /> I really do not believe in the worlds view of hope because we can't just hope in things that are not true or that is just wishful thinking. But once God has told us something then we can hope in that thing until Gods word is ratified. <br /> But yes revelation is something that is personal and we ourselves have to judge the veracity of the revelation given to is personally. Most people who claim revelation I truly believe are talking to themselves in their own heads and they are following after their own spirit. They feel the light of Christ in a church meeting and think that everything said in that meeting was true when in all reality they didn't experience a confirmation by the Holy Ghost about anything. Usually a confirmation only lasts a second or two. It is not just feeling good or feeling peace. It is a tangible and clear experience. And even then it is easy to add on to the communication and think it means more than it did...Natenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-49202505788299642692014-09-01T12:26:34.356-07:002014-09-01T12:26:34.356-07:00I look forward to Nate's response. But I will ...I look forward to Nate's response. But I will comment on whether we all really KNOW this, that, or the other. I may feel the spirit so strongly that I cannot deny with conviction what I just felt. But I still do not know for a surety. You may tell me China exists. You may have visited the place and strongly assure me it exists. People from China might bear testimony that it exists. But until I go there and receive a testimony stronger than faith, I must accept your word for it. We say "I know" way too often in testimony meetings. People have seen the fruits of the gospel in the lives and actions of their friends (although that is in dispute). People have claimed to have felt the spirit regarding this or that. But until they have the second comforter or even a visit from God or Christ, they really, really, do not know. But their belief has been bolstered to such a degree by the spirit and by experience that they truly feel that they "know".Milo Juryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13440059541058861873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-31710965669578150382014-09-01T12:13:54.318-07:002014-09-01T12:13:54.318-07:00Thanks for you comments Milo.
You are probably r...Thanks for you comments Milo. <br /><br />You are probably right that faith and hope and even love, are different things, but I have come to believe that all any of us have is just a 'hope' that our faith & beliefs are true and right and will be rewarded. <br /><br />For who knows for 100% sure, for everyone seems so sure they know for sure yet we all believe differently. <br /><br />Everyone claims to have have got their version of truth from God or the Spirit, but it just can't be all from the same God or Spirit, for God doesn't tell everyone different things, he teaches the same things to everyone. Obviously some or all of us are being deceived by false revelation we only 'think' comes from God, just as so many prophets were too. <br /><br />And who has seen and talked with God so they can say they know for sure? And how do we or they know it was really God they saw and talked to? For even those who say they have seen God (including Joseph Smith) aren't convincing because they don't live God's laws, before or after their vision. So it appears they have just been deceived by false Christ's and false Angels of Light as Christ warned that many would be.<br /><br />So to me, faith & hope are so close they could almost be the same thing, though faith is probably hope put into action. And when we put our hope & faith into action it produces love, which is the greatest of all. BKnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-54988366710721261682014-09-01T11:16:07.523-07:002014-09-01T11:16:07.523-07:00We are loving this discussion! Please keep going!
...We are loving this discussion! Please keep going!<br />I might say that both of you are two frayed cords of the same woven rope. We need someone to help tie these frayed ends together. <br />I have thought that faith and hope are two different things. It is our hope in Christ that changes our attitude, our thinking, or desires. It is faith that propels ourselves into action, the experimenting on the words of Christ. Works are the actions, whether completed, in progress, or mere wishes (the spirit is willing, etc.) There is value in our desires, but we cannot get to heaven on our wishes alone. Milo Juryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13440059541058861873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-72562206913282429192014-09-01T10:58:44.459-07:002014-09-01T10:58:44.459-07:00Nate,
I agree, we 1st need faith in God before w...Nate, <br /><br />I agree, we 1st need faith in God before we are going to do his works. For having pure love is ridiculous to those who don't believe in God and an afterlife, for it's too hard and often the reward of our service, sacrifice and pure love doesn't come til the next life, so if one didn't believe in God then they wouldn't be willing to sacrifice and have pure love, for it would be foolish to them. <br /><br />So yes, I think we do agree, that only by faith (hope in God & an afterlife) can we have the strength and will to do what God commands us to. So yes, faith produces works. <br /><br />It would be rare for one to keep the commandments if they didn't have faith in God, for it's so hard. <br /><br />As I talk to those who don't believe in God they think it's foolish to have pure love & sacrifice that much if there is no reward for it in this life. They are good and wonderful people but they are only willing to sacrifice so far as it makes sense to them. <br /><br />Many of Christ's teachings seem foolish to the natural man, to those who don't believe in God.<br /><br />I also agree that if we are filled with love we naturally follow the commandments. <br /><br />But I do know that it is possible that if someone will experiment upon the words of Christ and live them, even if they may not believe in God, then the actions can have an effect on their feelings and then their feelings can effect their thoughts so that they can gain faith in God. <br /><br />But it is rare that works produce faith because so few people are willing to sacrifice that much if they don't already believe in God. But it can happen. <br /><br />If we start to serve someone we will start to feel love for them, no matter if we believe in God or not, thus our hearts are changed and softened and we can then begin to understand God more and start to believe in him.<br /><br />But this is very rare and most people just do works to look righteous or check it off their list and don't do them sincerely and thus the works (praying, scripture study, service) have no effect on their hearts. <br /><br />And I agree it takes pure love to discern pure love in others. For as you said above, few can recognize if someone has love or not, that's because they don't have pure love themselves. <br /><br />Thus why most everyone easily falls for false prophets who look and sound so good, for they are easily deceived by false love, not knowing what pure love looks like. BKnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-6219955673216060782014-09-01T10:13:07.116-07:002014-09-01T10:13:07.116-07:00BK
See I think we are very close in our under...BK<br /><br /> See I think we are very close in our understanding. Perhaps you can sense when someone has love but many people can't. If we only look at people's actions to gauge whether they have love we cannot discern whether they do or not. Without faith in Christ no one can gain love.<br /> Yes I agree faith without works is dead because real faith will produce works. But works can never produce faith. Faith comes from our hearts and God drawing us to Him. Then comes forgiveness and the Spirit which then brings the works of God. <br /> When people try to do this out of order you have the LDS church. Every talk I have recently read by general authorities stresses repentence as the medium of change. I believe they are deliberately leaving out the fact that repentence can never come without faith. Because if only our actions change, then we are just as wicked as ever.<br /> I believe when Christ taught that we cannot add one cubit to our stature by ourselves, this can be applied to our spiritual growth as well. We can't just act differently and expect a change of heart. This comes only through faith in the atonement, then and only then are we given love from God.<br /> I really think if we talked we would be in agreement on this. Because like you expressed our works are an expression of our faith and love, but even more important than the works, is the motivation behind the works, and that is something that can only be discerned by the Spirit.<br /> Thank God for the atonement or none of us could ever become righteous. No one can earn spiritual growth because none of us deserve it. Maybe we are expressing the same thing in different ways I don't know. I like when Paul stated that if we have the Spirit we are no longer under the law, because if we are filled with love and the Spirit it comes naturally to follow the commandments. It is no longer a struggle because our hearts have been changed. I agree with you though that most people who claim to have been born again have not, and we need to be born again and again anyway.Natenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-71781586629395156742014-09-01T09:22:26.145-07:002014-09-01T09:22:26.145-07:00Nate, Continued -
People say & claim a lot...Nate, Continued - <br /><br />People say & claim a lot of things, but people's actions reveal their hearts, for you can't fake real true love. It's easy to see if someone is righteous or not. And the Pharisees weren't. That's why Christ said look for the 'love', that's the real proof that someone is righteous.<br /><br />So we can ask God to change us all we want, but if we don't choose to have charity, the pure love of Christ, we are nothing and we never possess it. But if we work to gain this pure love we will be saved, for we will be like Christ, for it means we keep his other commandments too. <br /><br />Faith without works is dead faith, and works without faith are dead works. It takes both. <br /> <br />The only real question is do you or I have pure love, that is the proof of our righteousness and that we interpret the scriptures correctly. If we or anyone else doesn't have it, we/they are nothing and don't really understand Christ & God.BKnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-82935797272900469682014-09-01T09:21:34.592-07:002014-09-01T09:21:34.592-07:00Nate,
As I said before, I agree that we need to ...Nate, <br /><br />As I said before, I agree that we need to rely on God/Christ in order to change/repent and gain Eternal Life, but we also have to do alot more than just ask God to change us, we have to make hard choices every day and every hour to actually live the commandments and have love, that is the part that God cannot do for us. <br /><br />Faith and works are both vital in order to access the Atonement. <br /><br />Everyone I know of who says they have turned & looked to Christ to be changed and have been born again have not really been, they don't really have pure love, they still support and do evil & they don't keep all the commandments, even though they claim to be born again.<br /><br />The proof is in the love, not in claiming to have turned to Christ, anyone can say that but doing it is another thing. <br /><br />I have never heard of anyone who has kept all of Christ's commandments (the law), including the Pharisees, they only keep an outward appearance of the law, never really taking care of the poor, living the Golden Rule, loving their enemies or having pure love. I don't know anyone who really does or did these things or has pure love, so I don't know who you are talking about, past or present, who keep all the commandments but don't have a change of heart, for no one I have heard of keeps all the commandments, so of course they wouldn't have a change of heart. <br /><br />But if we did keep all the commandments and choose to have pure love, which is a choice, then of course we would be Christlike and have the Holy Spirit as our guide and be worthy of Eternal Life and the Atonement, and of course our hearts would be changed. <br /><br />All the praying in the world and asking Christ for his grace will not do a thing for us until we make the choice to have pure love and actually love and serve those around us. <br /><br />Pure love cannot be faked, we either have it or we don't, and if we do we are righteous and have the Holy Spirit. It's very simple, but not very easy, for it's hard to be so selfless. God cannot sprinkle us with pixie dust and have it change our hearts, our hearts are only changed because we 'choose' to follow God and actively love & serve others like Christ asked us to. <br /><br />We love those we serve. If we start to take care of the poor and start to serve those around us we will naturally start to feel love for them. I have put this to the test and know it to be true, sincere actions do change our hearts, often quickly, I have experienced it many times. <br /><br />I think you are referring to people who don't really have pure love and don't really keep all the commandments yet they may claim to, so that is why you don't think it works. If you think the Pharisees were keeping the commandments then that is the problem, they weren't & they didn't have an ounce of pure love. <br /><br />But Christ said we will know the righteous (his true disciples) by the fact that they serve others with pure love, so that is the simple test to tell the righteous from the wicked. That's the proof of being 'born again'. <br /><br />And having pure love is again a total choice, something we have to make a conscious effort at every hour of the day, for it's not easy to love those who don't love us & serve, sacrifice & give all our excess money to the poor. <br /> BKnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-29641817517539856042014-09-01T07:31:26.390-07:002014-09-01T07:31:26.390-07:00BK
I understand a lot more of your viewpoint f...BK<br /><br /> I understand a lot more of your viewpoint from your last two comments. Thank you for sharing that. Yes we absolutely disagree 100 percent. I believe the New Testament teaches that we have to rely on Jesus Christ 100 percent to change us. The Book of Mormon teaches the same thing. This is called GRACE. You are right it is our decision that is why I said God blessed us according to the desires of our hearts. He cannot force grace upon us but the only thing we have to do it turn and look to Christ. This is what every prophet (including Christ) had ever taught.<br /> We CANNOT change one bit by simply acting like we are changed. Do you not think that he Pharisees were keeping the law? Their actions that everyone observed to be righteous revealed nothing about their hearts. I know some people who seem to keep all of the commandments outwardly but have not received a change of heart or had revelation (by their own admission) because they believe obedience is the key to their salvation.<br /> If our actions brought a change of heart or charity or righteousness THEN we would not need the atonement. God is the ONLY way we become righteous through faith in the atonement. <br /> The letter killers, the law never justifies, the law leads to death. Etc etc. Christ is the true vine and we can do NOTHING without Him. There are countless verses in the New Testament alone that teach this. Try everything from Acts to Hebrews to verify this and many of Christs own words. By our works we are not justified etc etc.<br /> This line of thinking that obedience and works brings a change of heart is what is keeping so many LDS people from being born again. They believe they are acting well enough that they don't need the atonement. And this they never do the work of God because they are not allowing grace to work in them or through them. If you claim to believe in the New Testament you believe in it in a very curious way. But that is your choice and I respect itNatenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-68153768391386542062014-08-31T22:50:05.485-07:002014-08-31T22:50:05.485-07:00Nate, Continued-
Perhaps our disagreement is jus...Nate, Continued-<br /><br />Perhaps our disagreement is just in the amount of help God gives us in order to become righteous, I believe it is mostly our determination to become righteous, as we seek God's help to do so, that allows us to do it. <br /><br />But we are the ones who make very conscious choices each day and every hour to choose the right. God cannot do that for us, often times we must choose the right when we aren't sure there is even a God, or when we think God has abandoned us, etc, like Christ felt on the Cross, yet he still continued to do what he knew was right.<br /><br />We can't become righteous without God's help, but God can't make us righteous, that is each of our choice & test here on earth. Even in hell we will still have to make up our own minds and choose to finally learn, change and repent and make amends at some point.<br /> <br />As far as the Day of Pentecost, we don't know if the story is completely true as told, we have seen how stories like Brigham turning into Joseph or Joseph being threatened by an Angel or Joseph seeing angels/Christ/God, etc, can be told, passed along, written in scripture and believed by millions even though there is no proof. <br /><br />But what we do know is that miracles, speaking in tongues, healings, etc. etc, doesn't mean the person is righteous or a true prophet or won't lead people astray. The Apostles had to contend with many false prophets of their day going around doing miracles to get people to believe them and not in the Apostles of Christ. <br /><br />And just look at how many falsehoods Paul went on to teach to the people and believe in himself. The Apostles were still very fallible men, no matter what happened that day. People can be blessed with the Holy Spirit at times when especially intune, when at other times they lose that Spirit because of unrighteousness. The Spirit can come & go. So maybe the Apostles were all very receptive at that time, but it doesn't mean they where righteous.<br /><br />I have had strong experiences with the Spirit too, especially on my mission and can relate a little to what happened to the Apostles, but that didn't mean I was more righteous because of the experience. <br /><br />God just has the power to speak through us, righteous or not, if he wants, but if he does use us it doesn't mean he made us righteous, for we are still the same person we were the day before. <br /><br />Righteousness is not proven by speaking in tongues or by being able to heal people or by miracles, or giving inspiring sermons, or by seeing angels, etc, for even the wicked can do those things. <br /><br />True righteousness is proven by our pure love one towards another, and by our keeping the commandments of God/Christ, which takes a firm daily decided determination to do so.BKnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-80203446095772481812014-08-31T22:48:50.046-07:002014-08-31T22:48:50.046-07:00Nate,
Actually, from my studies I believe Christ...Nate, <br /><br />Actually, from my studies I believe Christ teaches us to discern others by their works, their fruit, meaning whether or not they keep his commandments, and whether or not they have love. For Christ said that the way we will know his true disciples is by their love, which is very easy to see and discern. <br /><br />Actions are the only proof we have if we or someone else is righteous or not, for anyone can preach or claim the right things, everyone can feel they are righteous, but it's what we or other actually 'do' that reveals who we/they really are, not what we/they feel, say or claim.<br /><br />I believe our 'actions' show what the true desires of our hearts are, whether we really believe in Christ or not. <br /><br />A righteous person is easy to discern, because they are Christlike and have love. Unrighteous people, though they may be good & wonderful people are easily deceived to support evil and it's easy to see that. But a person with love and who keeps Christ's commandments is not easily deceived or at least not much and not for long, before they see their error, and they are also easy to awake to their error and not upset if they find they were deceived or wrong, but grateful to have been shown where they were deceived. They are very teachable and humble.<br /><br />I don't know what scriptures you mean that teach righteousness is by grace, for as I read Christ's words, he is continually teaching us how to righteously judge others by their fruits and how we are only righteous IF we keep his commandments. It's a very easy 2 + 2 = 4. <br /><br />Doing the right things does change our hearts & makes us righteous (for no one can make us righteous for us, we must do it by our deliberate actions & sacrifices), for actions create feelings and feelings create thoughts & visa versa. <br /><br />I don't believe God has the power to make anyone righteous, let alone a prophet, even if he wanted to. If he could there would have been no reason to come down to this earth or at least stay for long. For God could have just make us all righteous while still in heaven, but even there he couldn't make us choose the right. <br /><br />Everyone must choose for themselves to do what it takes to become righteous and to make the sacrifices and follow the commandments to become righteous. God can never do that for us, and if he tried he would cease to be God. <br /><br />But God can influence us with encouragement by his promptings to do right, but it is us who must choose to listen to those promptings and choose to follow his/Christ's commandments. And it's very hard too, not an easy thing, actually almost impossible. <br /><br />If God could make people righteous then everyone would just blame God for not helping them more. Millions would wonder why God does not change the hearts of evil people so the world would be a better place. But the fact is, God can't change us, we must change ourselves. <br /><br />I don't know where you got that idea but you are right we disagree on that point. How easy it would be if we just had to ask God to change us. I believe he can help us and give us strength and remembrance of our desire to change and inspiration as to why to change, but we must do the actual work, and work it is, very hard work and sacrifice to actually become righteous, it's a very delibrate daily act and the person knows it. <br /><br />And of course no one can change on their own, we do need God's help and guidance to change and become righteous, but most of the effort we must do ourselves by the many choices we make each day.BKnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-33467914075646020192014-08-31T18:55:20.479-07:002014-08-31T18:55:20.479-07:00I agree God allows people to use their agency and ...I agree God allows people to use their agency and I agree with you on what happened from Joseph to Thomas Monson.<br /><br /> The problem I have with what you are saying is that it seems that you are equating righteousness with works. This is the opposite of what Christ taught. You can watch and analyze someone's behavior and that cannot tell you what is in their heart. Righteousness according to the New Testament is given by grace. No one can make themselves righteous by simply doing things. <br /> Therefore I believe that God could take you, BK, assuming you have good desires and a good spirit at your core, and transform you into a prophet, and mold you into a person that could teach others to do the same.<br /> Do you believe Peter was a better human than you before the day of Pentecost? I don't think so, but God knew in Peter's heart he had righteous desires and God chose to do a work through him. Jesus taught that we could do nothing of ourselves and He will abide in us and He can work through us. <br /><br /> That is why I don't agree with your statement that no one is righteous enough to become a prophet. The truth is that no one can become righteous without God making them righteous. And the only thing keeping people from being changed by God is the desires of their hearts. <br /> Natenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-48330311174527948832014-08-31T18:38:58.870-07:002014-08-31T18:38:58.870-07:00Thus why I don't believe Joseph Smith was a tr...Thus why I don't believe Joseph Smith was a true prophet, though he may have meant well and was very wise about a lot of things and taught and did much good. <br /><br />But the people in the church even in Joseph's day were not following Christ, so why would God give them a true prophet? I believe God let false prophets from Joseph to Monson, come and deceive the people because that is what they preferred rather then the truth, which is much harder than anything Joseph taught. BKnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-1078926734175439682014-08-31T18:29:20.451-07:002014-08-31T18:29:20.451-07:00Nate,
God/Christ actually taught in the New Test...Nate, <br /><br />God/Christ actually taught in the New Testament: "Thou shalt do no murder" Matt. 19:18 <br /><br />Christ/God also commanded us to love one another, including our enemies and do good to them. <br /><br />Christ/God also taught the Golden Rule. <br /><br />These and many other of Christ's teachings teach against killing.<br /><br />Yes, I think God would have no choice but to watch us in our state, for if no one is worthy to be a prophet how can he call one? I don't know anyone worthy to be a prophet today or anyone in the past that I've read about. <br /><br />Even if God could find someone so righteous, if people refuse to follow a prophet or if they cast him out or worse, then what is God to do but let the people live out their lives without such guidance?<br /><br />As I said, I don't know anyone who even follows Christ, so why would they follow a true prophet who came along teachings Christ's same words? I don't know anyone who would. <br /><br />And why do we need a prophet anyway?Everyone knows basic right from wrong, everyone understands the Golden Rule and Karma. <br /><br />And no one in Christianity needs a prophet to remind them of the 10 commandments or Christ's teachings.<br /><br />We have all the truth we need to gain eternal life, at our fingertips in the New Testament. <br /><br />So, no, I don't believe God will give us a prophet if we won't even study God's words we already have in the New Testament and follow Christ and live their laws.<br /><br />I'm not sure if God could reveal something that I would know 100% is true. I have known so many people say they have seen God and/or Christ etc, and yet they do not live righteous lives or even believe in Christ's teachings, yet they are sure they have been promised Eternal Life. <br /><br />So it seems so easy to be deceived by false revelation & false visitations, dreams, visions, etc. that I don't know how I would know for sure it was <br />God, even if he appeared to me. <br /><br />Even the scriptures are filled with supposed 'prophets' falling for false revelation and doing evil. <br /><br />But that said, I believe God has revealed many truths to me, for they are in harmony with the words of Christ and I have lived and tested them out and proved them to be true for myself, but I would have to say I just 'believe those revelations' and haven't found any truths that work better, but I don't have 100% proof that they are true or came from God, though I believe they did, especially the more I study. <br /><br />Faith is just a hope, not a pure knowledge. A hope that what we believe is true. I have never known anyone I believe really knows for sure of anything, though many will say they do, but I watch what people do, not what they say. <br /><br />The best we can do is 'hope' we are right and living righteously, while continually rechecking our beliefs and actions. <br /><br />BKnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-80390570415308754962014-08-31T17:30:08.313-07:002014-08-31T17:30:08.313-07:00BK
Where did God command us not to kill? Ha ha...BK<br /><br /> Where did God command us not to kill? Ha ha I know that one is kind of a common sense commandment but it was commanded in the Old Testament.<br /> <br /> Since you have accurately described the state of mankind and acknowledge that the pure love of Christ is really nowhere to be found, do you think God would watch without calling a prophet to intervene?<br /> And just a personal question to you. Do you believe that God could reveal something to you in such a way that you really knew, and I mean that you really knew whatever it was that was revealed? In other words is there any revelation at all that could be given to you personally that you could put your full faith and trust in?Natenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-2193014554118737862014-08-31T16:41:39.067-07:002014-08-31T16:41:39.067-07:00Nate,
Thank you.
God only expects us to believe...Nate, <br /><br />Thank you.<br /><br />God only expects us to believe people are his true disciples/prophets if they prove it by their actions (whether they follow his teachings or not and have love, not by what they preach or claim.<br />So I don't believe God would or could ever expect us to believe Nephi was a true prophet, for he wasn't Christlike.<br /><br />And I wouldn't put too much store in stories from the Bible, especially that sound fishy like God killing people for withholding, sounds like misinterpretation by bystanders to me or a completely false story. I don't believe God would do such a thing, for neither would Christ. <br /><br />Thinking God would telling a person to kill someone is alot different then God deciding himself when time is up for a person or the earth and it's people. <br /><br />As far as 'tares to be burned' that is probably more figuritive then real, probably meaning they will have to finally come to terms with what they did during their life and it will bring a suffering like unto burning. (Which God has no control over, it's just fate that everyone has to eventually painfully confront what they did wrong during their lives)<br /><br />So no, I don't believe God can or would command his servants to kill, God alone controls life & death, for it would be contrary to his former commands and he doesn't ever command opposite what he said. Prophets don't have a different standard then the rest of us, they are in fact more loving, patient and kind then most of us, not less. <br /><br />I have not studied the words or lives of Ghandi or Mother Theresa well enough to know for sure if they exhibited pure love, though it sounds like Mother Theresa did. I enjoyed "The Hiding Place", it was really good and gives us a great perspective and understanding of evil. <br /><br />I also believe the love of God is still found, it's just very rare to find people with it, though most people are good and honorable, just deceived to support evil cause it's easier then following Christ. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /> <br /><br /><br /> BKnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-20956113731935304052014-08-31T16:18:30.873-07:002014-08-31T16:18:30.873-07:00BK
I love reading what you write. It is refre...BK<br /><br /> I love reading what you write. It is refreshing and I enjoy your honesty. I know you don't believe in the Book of Mormon and if I hadn't experienced what I believe to be a satisfactory witness of it's truthfulness then I wouldn't either. <br /> I agree it is odd about Laban but I believe it was odd in the New Testament that God would kill a couple of people for withholding some of their property from consecration but he did it. <br /> Also do you have a problem with Christs teaching that at the 2nd coming the tares would be gathered to be burned? Do you believe revelations where death and destruction are prophesied? If God is fine striking people down I really could believe that He could command one of His servants to do so. <br /> I believe Christ came in the Meridian of time ONLY to spread love. He taught that the time of judgement was not then but that it would undoubtedly come. And He even said that His angels would be the ones to pluck the tares from the wheat.<br /> I appreciate your testimony and think your message of Charity is of the utmost importance. Thank you <br /><br /> Have you studied the words and life of Ghandi or maybe Mother Theresa? You may find they exhibited pure love. Or I would highly recommend the book "the hiding place" about Corroe ten Boom. The love of God is still found.Natenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-21038051435608552392014-08-31T16:15:00.982-07:002014-08-31T16:15:00.982-07:00I thought that "Church of the Firstborn"...I thought that "Church of the Firstborn" and<br />"church of the lamb" were terms referring to the same Church within the institutional "church", that only the true, sincere followers of Christ discover.Drunkard of Ephraimnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-5410540744851931172014-08-31T16:00:45.481-07:002014-08-31T16:00:45.481-07:00Nate,
Thank you for your comments, I appreciate ...Nate, <br /><br />Thank you for your comments, I appreciate hearing them. But I don't believe in Nephi, that he really lived or was a true prophet (true prophets don't kill drunken men who don't pose them any harm, because they think God told them to, they know God would never tell them to do that, nor would true prophets blame it on needing the plates for the scriptures they contained, for true prophets would almost have those scriptures memorized or be able to easily get them re-revealed by God. No need to get the plates from Laban.<br /><br />Thus, I don't believe Joseph Smith was a true prophet anymore either. They just didn't live up to what I believe true prophets are like, they didn't seem to follow Christ, even if they did and taught many true and wonderful things, for so do most false prophets, even the one's today in the Church. <br /><br />So I don't believe in a 'Church of the Firstborn', etc. I believe as Rock does, as Christ taught, that those who truly follow Christ's teachings are part of his 'spiritual church', which is not an organized earthly church at the moment. <br /><br />But I don't think I even know anyone who I believe qualifies to be in that church, for no one I know truly follows Christ, though I'm sure there are some few somewhere who do, it would be nice to meet one. <br /><br /><br />BKnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-53882770351502946652014-08-31T14:32:10.564-07:002014-08-31T14:32:10.564-07:00@ Nate
I think your right on the oil. It's g...@ Nate<br /><br />I think your right on the oil. It's going to be a good investigation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com