tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post8715874089180923625..comments2024-03-13T12:52:19.391-07:00Comments on Pure Mormonism: Circling The WagonsAlan Rock Watermanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comBlogger229125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-80221075023948214412013-12-29T14:11:20.316-08:002013-12-29T14:11:20.316-08:00I know the Gore's. I was her home teacher over...I know the Gore's. I was her home teacher over 20 years ago. <br>She is a miracle in many, many says.<br>Australia is worse for losing them, she is better for getting out of the country and leaving all the sickness behind.AussieOinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-6271477088358778512013-09-14T17:10:30.521-07:002013-09-14T17:10:30.521-07:00@Robin Hood--Utah has always been a test of my fai...@Robin Hood--<br><br>Utah has always been a test of my faith--LOL!<br><br>I'm a poor American by most American LDS standards--<br><br>and I have experienced (well, my family) persecution--<br><br>we work very hard, but we are working poor--<br><br>Some of my ancestors left England 'dirt-poor', and some of their descendants have prospered; others have not.<br><br>There is a fairly high level of education here, though, and for that I am grateful. I was educated; that is a huge 'wealth'--<br><br>but I see Mormon's prophecy as fitting in the church very well, because of the huge disparity in incomes and race(s)--<br><br>Because of the saints in Africa and India and Asia and South America and Eastern Europe (etc., etc.)--<br><br>I am sure you are quite correct that there is not as much pride as there is in America.<br><br>And I do and have borne that in mind--<br><br>there are LDS children going hungry in 'third world' countries, and this is a huge concern to me--<br><br>But I know wealthy LDS who are so concerned about their next trip to Europe that they care very little about those hungry little Mormons--<br><br>I read it from my perspective, indeed, and I do know, from experiences I have had, that many of those who do lead the church are extremely wealthy--<br><br>perhaps it is the leaders who are being warned--<br><br>and those who follow them into false prosperity--<br><br><br>LDSDPernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-23315173030925376472013-09-14T17:02:19.024-07:002013-09-14T17:02:19.024-07:00I don't know why I'm defending Denver Snuf...I don't know why I'm defending Denver Snuffer. I haven't read his books or heard him or met him, and I've read very little of his blogs--<br><br>the internet has changed a lot of things--<br><br>What one person things is defiance, another believes is honesty--<br><br>I'm not sure what it is--<br><br>I have read a few of his recent blogs, and I get the idea that he's journaling--<br><br>if that offends some people, well, then--<br><br>I think this shows that the man doesn't want to skulk--<br><br>he doesn't feel he is guilty, so why should he act guilty? He has a lot of people who have read his books; he is trying to communicate to them his feelings, testimony, and the feeling that he does not believe himself to be guilty.<br><br>My husband and I were just talking a little about this. I don't have the time to invest in reading Denver Snuffer's books--<br><br>but my husband and I have agreed that if we had been as open about what we believe about church history (that it has been revised), etc.--<br><br>we would come out as being even more radical than Denver Snuffer--<br><br>!<br><br>It's terrifying. We're keeping our mouths closed. The last thing we need right now is this sort of thing in our lives--<br><br>life is hard enough--<br><br><br>AV and Rock,<br><br>Among my ancestors were people who were not thrilled with Brigham Young and didn't live polygamy; they went west, because their homes had been burned, and the prophet whom they followed was dead--<br><br>So, AV, not everyone 'followed' Brigham Young at all, and Rock--<br><br>you are correct. My American ancestors were very individualistic; the English converts followed--<br><br>LDSDPernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-73794908936851353312013-09-13T18:45:01.286-07:002013-09-13T18:45:01.286-07:00Robin Hood,Regarding the Israel controversy, you p...Robin Hood,<br>Regarding the Israel controversy, you provide much food for thought. It has always been obvious to me that the British Isles are descended largely from Ephraiam, and that that Nordic nations are of Dan. The vikings retained many cultural and governmental traditions we read about in the Old Testament. <br><br>It's certainly possible that Snuffer's SP received complaints from fellow Saints, but from what we learn of the provenance of the process on Snuffer's blog, that does not seem to be the case. As when the September Six disciplinary courts were clandestinely orchestrated by Boyd Packer (in violation of protocol), in Denver's case, we learn of the involvement of a member of the Seventy and one of the twelve giving the go ahead to the Stake President. <br><br>I never did believe this was an order handed down by the top leadership as a body. Unfortunately however, the other GAs don't tend to speak out against one of their own because projecting an image of unity is more important than just about anything else. I believe there is a general feeling among the GAs that if the members were to learn there were disagreements among them, it might somehow give the impression the "Church" isn't true. <br><br>For those interested in how church courts are supposed to work and how far they often seem to have strayed from the procedures laid out by the Lord, an excellent and very thorough analysis can be found in "The Doctrine Against Dissent" here:<br><br>http://ldsanarchy.wordpress.com/2013/09/04/the-doctrine-against-dissent/Alan Rock Watermanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-64268869701451734572013-09-13T12:41:46.129-07:002013-09-13T12:41:46.129-07:00LDSDPer,Over the years 100,000 British saints have...LDSDPer,<br>Over the years 100,000 British saints have emigrated to "Zion". At one time there were more saints in England than there were in Utah. Had all those saints stayed here the Mormon faith would probably have been headquartered here.<br><br>One issue that I have with many of the blogs and message boards I have read over the years (when I have the time) is that they are all very US-centric, as if that is the only place the church is established. There are more non-US saints now than Americans in the church. So when people on these blogs etc label their fellow saints with some judgement regarding their behaviour or their wealth, materialism etc, and then apply this observation to all or even most of the saints, they often forget that they are seeing a very small part of the picture. They are in the Utah or even US bubble.<br>I have been to Utah. Though this too is a generalisation, it seems to me that Brigham's prediction that the tome would come when the saints would be tried by the "test of gold" and be found wanting, is happening before our eyes. This is not the case eleswhere in the world - generally speaking.<br>So when I hear people apply Moroni's comments to the church (which, remember, is the ecclessia, the congregation of believers - not the corporate entity) I realise they have a very limited view and are unwittingly passing judgement on saints living in very different circumstances.Robin Hoodnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-1966275785430771372013-09-13T12:09:43.035-07:002013-09-13T12:09:43.035-07:00Rock,Thank you for your comments.I believe Bro. Sn...Rock,<br>Thank you for your comments.<br>I believe Bro. Snuffer's is a very sad case really. But he, like the rest of us, has chosen his path.<br>You and I do not agree on the Israel/Gentile issue, even if we put literal lineage to one side for the moment. This is because for me, the scriptures make it abundantly clear that any gentile who joins the church is considered Israel. That principle alone disqualifies us from being the subject of Moroni's concerns. We can't have it both ways. His description of the conditions amongst the gentiles is very accurate when applied to western society, but a bit of a stretch if applied to members of the church.<br>Getting back to lineage, even the Nephites Israelite lineage was questionable by the time Moroni wrote, as intermarriage with the other races found in the Americas must have been rife by that time. The labels of Nephite and Lamanite were largely political by then anyway and had very little to do with ancestry. This is illustrated by the fact that a number of writers pride themselves on being descendents of Nephi or a "pure Nephite", which suggests to me most others weren't.<br><br>Putting the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve to one side, we should also perhaps remember that we have over 3,000 prophets in the church; one in each stake. We call them patriarchs. When they pronounce a blessing they do it under divine inspiration and direct revelation. I have known people who have been identified in their PB as gentiles and their adoption into one of the tribes pronounced. I have spoken to a number of patriarchs who have all stated they get definate and powerful revelation on this matter. My own PB states "you are one who has come through the loins of Ephraim, bringing with it all the blessings of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, which is of great worth". Later it identifies me as "choice in the House of Israel". I am not prepared to disbelieve the Lord when he inspires his prophets to declare these words directly and personally to us.<br>In this land (England) it is difficult to find anyone (in the church) who is not declared a literal descendent of Israel.<br><br>With regard to the plural marriage issue, I came to the conclusion a number of years ago that Joseph was not polygamous. I believe he was sealed to a number of people, but that does not constitute marriage and he knew it. like you I have concerns regarding Section 132.<br><br>Getting back to Denver Snuffer, I think perhaps it is unwise to assume the SP violated church procedures as you state. How do you know he did not receive complaints from 2 people? Considering the number of people Bro. Snuffer addresses on his speaking engagements, who read his blog, or his books, I think it is almost inevitable that at least two people, and possibly many more, have taken issue with his views and expressed them to his priesthood leaders.<br>It is very easy to label the SP as apostate, because he can't and won't respond due to his sacred duty and the absolute requirement for confidentiality. I think it's a great shame that Bro. Snuffer has failed so publicly to exhibit such restraint.Robin Hoodnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-32304309929835505392013-09-11T22:27:35.331-07:002013-09-11T22:27:35.331-07:00Ken: What's your point? Given all the talk on ...Ken: What's your point? Given all the talk on here, I have been following his blog recently to see what's the interest (in retrospect I think that was a mistake). I don't get it. He made a public event out of what probably should have been kept a private matter (maybe this is where I'm missing something). He was blatantly defiant of their requests, and essentially mocked them in an attempt to follow their request to notify his blog readers of disapproved content. Plastering the council summons on his blog. Refusing to cooperate about the book and speeches. Relaying private conversations with the leaders to the world, usually painting them in a negative or self-contradictory light. Insisting on who attends the council. Defiant until the end. I just don't get it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-10778574944648269002013-09-11T21:20:06.922-07:002013-09-11T21:20:06.922-07:00TO everyone but Steven Lester (since he won't ...TO everyone but Steven Lester (since he won't listen to my anonymousness anyway): <br><br>Snuffer's stake president probably TECHNICALLY fulfilled the requirement for 2 witnesses to complain...I personally know one who could fit the bill of the required complainant--wouldn't take much to find another in the stake. <br><br>Regardless, it wasn't so much a local issue, as it was a directive from higher in the food chain. Here is an excerpt from Denver's blog 2 days ago:<br><br>"During our hour long discussion, the stake president admitted to my children he got a call during one of his meetings with me from one of the Seven Presidents of the Seventy. He was instructed to "stand down" while the Seventy and one of the Twelve read Passing the Heavenly Gift. Then he (the stake president) did nothing further until he was told to proceed. I asserted that if he believed I was really "apostate" he would never have stood down. For that reason it was him merely following commands from higher up, and not a local matter."<br><br>All the chatter ABOUT Denver and Denver's teachings is usually less-informed and often inaccurate...or at least in the order of summing things up, critical elements are left out. It takes millions and millions of carefully chosen words in the right sequence to convey correct ideas--they can't be adequately summed up pro or con...without having acquired and processed the information themselves--especially since so much of what is considered has nuances and hinges and small turning points that have greater ramifications along the way.<br>Just like the virgin's oil for their lamps, the oil/light cant be gotten/borrowed with having spent the effort and time to acquire the oil/light themselves.<br><br><br>If one has only read one book out of the 13 books he has written (not for profit--proceeds donated to LDS church), one probably comes up short on a qualified understanding of what Snuffer has to say.<br><br>I know I know, I have heard it a zillion times and I see it coming again-- "I can already tell he is a deceiver. So I won't read anymore. I saw some reviews on him..." That's the beauty of it...you are free to choose. There is nothing about Snuffer that would compel you to believe--no office, no keys, now not even any membership. But yet it is compelling and it invites us to come to Christ. He has a message to deliver and invites you to hear it.<br><br>http://www.denversnuffer.info/<br><br>Oh what the heck, Ken Jensenanonymous, sort ofnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-61111431584541953992013-09-11T19:09:23.967-07:002013-09-11T19:09:23.967-07:00What is the moral of this story?What is the moral of this story?swplazahttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moralnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-21488587180570747602013-09-11T18:50:00.415-07:002013-09-11T18:50:00.415-07:00No loss for Denver, it was even a good thing, they...No loss for Denver, it was even a good thing, they did him a huge favor, though Denver probably doesn't know it yet.<br><br>Anon 23noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-35311508206685899242013-09-11T16:47:33.091-07:002013-09-11T16:47:33.091-07:00Per his blog hours ago (which may have been know t...Per his blog hours ago (which may have been know to those who attended last night), Snuffer was excommunicated.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-63942056581494074482013-09-11T14:22:49.845-07:002013-09-11T14:22:49.845-07:00I just don't get it. How did Brigham Young get...I just don't get it. How did Brigham Young get so many people to follow him, for polygamy is just so repulsive, at least to most women. Not to mention that the scriptures then totally taught against it, so did Joseph all his life. <br><br>How could people follow someone like Brigham Young or fall for something like polygamy? I get why most men did, but how could good men who loved their wives do it or how could women believe such ridiculous unfair and vile teachings? <br><br>If the Church started teaching polygamy today and letting men have a bunch of wives, would most members really just blindly go along with it? I guess I don't understand most people. I would be like Emma, trying to teach women to have a little self respect.AVnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-620636852150530892013-09-11T12:30:39.626-07:002013-09-11T12:30:39.626-07:00@2:34--in my opinion, it doesn't matter when a...@2:34--<br><br>in my opinion, it doesn't matter when a person lives or when he/she dies or where--<br><br>this earth life is a test for everyone, and sometimes it is HARD to be LDS--<br><br>LOL!<br><br>Really hard--<br><br>I know people who seem to have 'it all' and who have a very pat view about religion, and I even know some people who believe that those who are 'born' LDS are/were superior in a previous 'world'--<br><br>such people are thorns in the side of anyone who really wants to find and live the truth--<br><br>Every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ, and, ultimately, *I* believe, LDS who are smug and self-righteous will bow their heads (not their knees) before Baptists, Bhuddists, Hindus, Jews, Muslims, Shinto and Sikh--<br><br>who are righteous and refined. This is what I believe; some of the early LDS believed it, too--<br><br>the LDS church became very mainstream and narrow later--<br><br><br>LDSDPernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-13830383833530369042013-09-11T11:05:25.467-07:002013-09-11T11:05:25.467-07:00LDS Dper,I'm also learning that quite a number...LDS Dper,<br>I'm also learning that quite a number of those who went west didn't do it because they chose to follow Brigham Young. They went west because the persecutions were intolerable. Others went to Wisconsin, and still others remained where they were throughout Iowa, Illinois, Missouri, and Ohio.<br><br>Certainly the majority of English converts followed the Brethren, who consisted of Heber Kimball, Orson Whitney, Pratt, and others followed those who had been instrumental in their conversion. As I noted in my piece "Lake Wobegon Mormons" the lower castes of England were practically bred to follow "authority."<br><br>Porter Rockwell couldn't stand Brigham Young. But he could not very well stay in Nauvoo after shooting Frank Worell off his horse. Worell was one of the leaders of the mob that killed Joseph and Hyrum, and he had a lot of friends. Rockwell did not "follow Brigham." He just went somewhere safer.Alan Rock Watermanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-19065971457451008522013-09-11T10:52:47.604-07:002013-09-11T10:52:47.604-07:00I'm not sure Steven Lester is so concerned wit...I'm not sure Steven Lester is so concerned with people using their real names as he is they use SOME name! At least that's the frustration I feel.<br><br>I certainly understand why many latter-day Saints prefer anonymity when discussing things their family might be concerned for them about. And those who live in Utah often have to think of their livelihood. Criticism of the corporate Church, however warranted, can get a person blackballed professionally.<br><br>I have been contacted by three bishops who approve of most of my positions on this blog, but of course if they were to use their real names it could cause them problems. Robin Hood is a good pseudonym.Alan Rock Watermanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-51532111400498218442013-09-11T10:47:04.545-07:002013-09-11T10:47:04.545-07:00No matter how often I beg and plead with readers t...No matter how often I beg and plead with readers to use a username instead of choosing "Anonymous" no one seems to pay me any mind.<br><br>Folks, please use a username! I don't care if it's fake, and I don't even care if you choose the Anonymous box, but please sign off with something so we can tell one anonymous from another.Alan Rock Watermanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-87537849342840399852013-09-10T21:06:01.506-07:002013-09-10T21:06:01.506-07:00The true Gospel of Jesus Christ was never taken fr...The true Gospel of Jesus Christ was never taken from the earth. It's been here for 2000 years since Christ 1st preached it, it's even been around since Adam. Though few have been willing to study or follow it's high laws, despite Prophets trying to teach them to through the ages.<br><br>Joseph Smith only preached Christ's same Gospel, no more no less. He didn't restore the Gospel, for all the Christian Churches of the day still had Christ's full Gospel, they just maybe didn't interpret or live it all correctly. But it's all in the New Testament.<br><br>The Gospel message is very simple, it's all about having 'unconditional everlasting love' (Charity) & relieving the suffering of the poor & needy around us. <br><br>But I believe most Christian Churches today preach and practice the true Gospel of Christ far far better than the LDS Church ever has, especially since Brigham Young took over.<br>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-91951860351296081012013-09-10T15:51:20.529-07:002013-09-10T15:51:20.529-07:00I'm thinking about the first question. I don&...I'm thinking about the first question. I don't have an answer yet.<br><br>"If the true gospel had been lost until Joseph Smith..." <br><br> I don't believe the true gospel was lost to all the world. From what I understand, there is always a remnant of believers somewhere. Individuals seeking truth and open to it would receive the guidance of the Holy Spirit and learn truth. I think that the world in general was ready to receive more and therefore the Book of Mormon was released from it's hiding place and brought to light for the whole world to partake of when they would. The Christian hymns written long before Joseph's day were (I hope) praising God and Jesus. The messages in old and new hymns could be equally corrupt depending on who writes them and what their gospel understanding is. Just my opinion.<br> <br>Very interesting questions. Something to think about.menoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-66225800185772629482013-09-10T14:34:40.188-07:002013-09-10T14:34:40.188-07:00I'm interested in asking a Mormon this questio...I'm interested in asking a Mormon this question: Would God really have left the world floundering for generations without the true gospel, only revealing it again in the 1800s? It's easy for the Mormon to say yes, because he or she didn't live or die before that time. There's no personal cost in saying yes.<br><br>Also, if the true gospel had been lost until Joseph Smith, why do Mormons sing Christian hymns written long before his day? Wouldn't the message of them be corrupted?9dbc7a58-1a60-11e3-ab5d-000bcdcb8a73https://openid.aol.com/opaque/9dbc7a58-1a60-11e3-ab5d-000bcdcb8a73noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-73499601599564892812013-09-10T10:26:54.993-07:002013-09-10T10:26:54.993-07:00@Steven,then you won't read me. I don't D...@Steven,<br><br>then you won't read me. I don't DARE to publish my real name. Not only are all three of my names highly unusual and could easily identify me right down to the house I live in--<br><br>!<br><br>but it's already hard enough.<br><br>And, frankly, I am a coward. <br><br>How is that for brutal honesty?<br><br>Thanks for what you said--<br><br>you ring true.<br><br>LDSDPernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-32359530052156508152013-09-10T10:24:25.712-07:002013-09-10T10:24:25.712-07:00Don't go away, Little John.Robin Hood, I alway...Don't go away, Little John.<br><br>Robin Hood, I always wondered what happened to those who stayed in England.<br><br>I had one ancestor who tried. His wife left him for America, and it constituted a divorce; that was, to me, very wrong. I sympathized with him; he wanted to stay. He led a branch. Eventually, though, his entire family left, and he was lonely.<br><br>There was something wrong about that--<br><br>about how everyone HAD to leave. Just really wrong.<br><br>I have a lot I could say about some of my ancestors from England. But I'm just another blog reader myself, and I have no right to say so much, I fear.<br><br>I am ashamed of the Nauvoo pride. My English ancestors were poor as church mice--<br><br>LOL!<br><br>Desperate to get out of the coal mines--<br><br>but great great great grandpa hated the thought of the American desert. He was right to hate it--<br><br>LOL!<br><br>some of his descendants got out of there as soon as they could!<br><br>*trying to lighten things up*<br><br>just as another, little, insignificant reader of Rock's blog--<br><br>don't anyone go away, please--<br><br>I like reading what you have to say.<br><br>Peace?<br><br>From an anglophile with a VERY unique ancestry--<br><br>somewhat unusual, to be exact.<br><br>Um, let's see, can it be a problem to be proud of having absolutely impoverished ancestors?<br><br>:)<br><br>LDSDPernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-81010119819277834052013-09-10T10:15:37.477-07:002013-09-10T10:15:37.477-07:00@Robin--8:47Some of *us* have warned people before...@Robin--<br><br>8:47<br><br>Some of *us* have warned people before. I used to. Please understand that I don't have a problem with your not liking the book (Denver Snuffer's). I don't have a right to criticize the book; you are right; I haven't read it. I haven't wanted to.<br><br>But I feel uneasy about being 'connected' (caught you on that word) to Denver Snuffer, because I, independently, not having an idea who Denver Snuffer was--<br><br>began a number of years ago, before I saw Rock's blog, long ago, actually, over a decade ago--<br><br>to believe that *we* LDS are the 'gentile' church Mormon mentions.<br><br>I had immersed myself in the Book of Mormon, and I admit that I am NOT immune to being deceived; none of us is immune to being deceived; the 'very elect', whoever that is, will be deceived.<br><br>So I have been cautious about this, but I believe that I am part of the gentile church that has become apostate, and I would rather repent than be sorry!!!<br><br>Let others come to it as they may--<br><br>I am not responsible to teach the 'brethren' what I believe. But what harm is there in my repenting? How can it be damaging to ME to feel shame at the materialism that I embraced for so many years?<br><br>And how I ignored the plight of the oppressed and fatherless and widows and impoverished and hungry throughout the world until I read that scripture and had that "aha!" moment.<br><br>So I am a little uneasy about having it be assumed that anyone who believes THAT about Mormon and the gentile church is a Denver Snuffer follower, because I'm not.<br><br>I just needed to make that clear. Honestly, I don't see a lot of danger in repenting--<br><br>LOL!<br><br>But I also believe it is up to anyone else to manage his/her own remorse and repentance, including the 'leaders' of the church--<br><br>let them "(repent) how, where, or (of) what they may"<br><br>Yes, I'm being 'cute' with the 11th article of faith, and I wonder how many other people believe, along with me, that that is a powerful witness to the importance of individual agency--<br><br>and that none of us really has a right to do anything beyond express our own beliefs about 'things'--<br><br>to 'warn' others or rebuke others is a risky thing--<br><br>LDSDPernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-25723532685464579932013-09-10T09:58:40.812-07:002013-09-10T09:58:40.812-07:00@Robin Hood--3:18You know, I respect your right to...@Robin Hood--3:18<br><br>You know, I respect your right to disagree with Snuffer. Unfortunately, I have experienced the "proud Nauvoo" syndrome. I am descended (7th generation) from people who came from Nauvoo. I only have one line that came to Utah after the railroad, and that is a MOST interesting story.<br><br>I grew up with this pride. I was not comfortable with it. I grew up with the feeling of elitism that some of my family members had. Do you know what the DUP is? Daughters of the Utah Pioneers. I was invited to join them and was horrified by the pride. You had to bring along your 'genealogy' to prove you were descended from "Mormon pioneers"--<br><br>I began to read my ancestors' journals, and I got a different perspective. I found out that some of my ancestors were wary of some of the leaders. I found out that they went west, because they were tired of the mobs. I found out that some of them wondered what had REALLY happened to Joseph Smith. I began to feel uncomfortable with the romanticizing of the trek West and all the sacrifices, etc.<br><br>I found out that some of the things the brethren taught were not true, because of my ancestral journals. That doesn't mean I shot them down (the 'brethren'; everyone is human), but I began to question.<br><br>*I* was taught that the 'gentiles' were exactly what you believe they are, non-covenant people--<br><br>but if you believe that you as an LDS are descended from Israel, that isn't found in the Book of Mormon. The "gentiles" I know are either Christians whose religions and churches are no more 'adorned' than our own--<br><br>and many of them think they are "Israel", too; they will argue with you vehemently about that--<br><br>or are the gentle people I know who are Bhuddists and Hindus and Muslims, who do not adorn their churches as much as we do--<br><br>Before I ever heard of Denver Snuffer or of anyone who believed that the 'gentile' church is US--<br><br>we, LDS, Mormons--<br><br>I began to suspect it. I remember how my face burned, how I felt shame, how it came to me as a powerful witness that I needed to repent and not get caught up in the rampant materialism. It came to me, as I was studying the Book of Mormon. It came to me during a time when my husband and I had lost a lot of financial power. I have never openly rebuked any wealthy LDS. I have not stood up and expounded about how too much $ is invested in huge church buildings--<br><br>but there are things I cannot share on here (safely) that could prove quite beyond argument that the 'church' (as a collective) cares more about its buildings than it does about individuals. It's my trump card, and I hold it close, and I wouldn't expose it to you. I don't rant and revile; the Book of Mormon warns us against reviling. But I know the truth now, and it has opened my heart and my mind.<br><br>You can believe what you wish to believe however. But I have lived where there are many Bhuddists, and their places of 'worship' are very simple. <br><br>We stand condemned. If you doubt that, listen to this:<br><br>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/04/02/the-whole-church-is-under-condemnation-the-talk-that-changed-the-church/<br><br>(or read)<br><br><br>even better:<br><br>https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1986/04/cleansing-the-inner-vessel?lang=eng<br><br>I don't think Denver Snuffer is the problem. You can dislike his book without impunity.<br><br>But, be aware that many LDS have independently come to SOME of the same conclusions after immersing *ourselves* in the Book of Mormon. <br><br>I find it interesting that some of the people I know in the ward in which I reside--<br><br>who subtly persecute the poor--<br><br>don't give much time to the Book of Mormon and get annoyed when anyone brings up its importance. I AM in a position to see this.<br><br>LDSDPernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-45881507526751584122013-09-10T09:40:39.658-07:002013-09-10T09:40:39.658-07:00@Rock at 8:13--I appreciate knowing that Denver Sn...@Rock at 8:13--<br><br>I appreciate knowing that Denver Snuffer tells people not to follow him. I may be literal-minded, but that increases my respect for him. I have never intended to be disrespectful to anyone.<br><br>Goodness, I'm STILL trying to find some respect for Brigham Young!!! LOL! <br><br>I'm just so overwhelmed with Joseph Smith's papers and trying to memorize (LOL!) the Book of Mormon and abide by its teachings--<br><br>that I don't have room in my age-failing brain for Denver Snuffer. I defend his right to write. <br><br>My greatest fear in all this is that we as LDS become dishonest as we keep low profiles about what we believe. There are only a few people my husband and I feel safe talking to about our feelings about the Book of Mormon, and that includes church members!LDSDPernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-7345337497978708462013-09-10T09:27:53.510-07:002013-09-10T09:27:53.510-07:00I was accusing Rock of nothing. Only asking the q...I was accusing Rock of nothing. Only asking the question sort of retorically (spelling?) that the comment thread seems to go the way of polygamy eventually even though the topic post had nothing to do with that.<br><br>Anonymous, while I appreciate your calling me out, your understanding may possibly be flawed. To not take the Lords name in vain is not referring to swearing, but is referring to not trying to use the name of the Lord and excercise His authority without having His permission.<br><br>Often is the case when people want to back up thier words by claiming God's authority, when they either have none, or are unworthy to use such. Enough so that God made it a commandment.<br><br>best,<br>ShawnShawnCnoreply@blogger.com