tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post764293274995055363..comments2024-03-13T12:52:19.391-07:00Comments on Pure Mormonism: Are We Paying Too Much Tithing?Alan Rock Watermanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comBlogger430125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-38791556703654444112023-05-29T15:47:18.931-07:002023-05-29T15:47:18.931-07:00Hi Rock, great article!
I just wanted to post my ...Hi Rock, great article!<br /><br />I just wanted to post my own insight given (now) recent events:<br /><br />The law of tithing could be construed as a law that takes effect so long as the Church needs it to fulfill the stated purpose. Whenever the Church accrues enough money to replace tithing, the law is not in effect. Widows Mite Report says the Church can fund itself for the foreseeable future, so the law of tithing is suspended until those projections are proven wrong.Montanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15994239982668293527noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-64087367250470539502022-12-14T08:27:26.673-08:002022-12-14T08:27:26.673-08:00I am sorry but this is dumb, It is a commandment g...I am sorry but this is dumb, It is a commandment given in Malachi, 2nd Nephi, and in Joseph Smith History that we should go out and pay tithing.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07601258764380102004noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-87053793237631540932020-12-14T19:41:32.387-08:002020-12-14T19:41:32.387-08:00You said: "And if you don't think some of...You said: "And if you don't think some of the Brethren are above lying outright in order misrepresent the law of tithing, then I suggest you take a look at this piece. Scroll down to Appendix B to follow Apostle Jeffrey Holland's deliberate attempts at subterfuge." The link for "this piece" is broken. Can you tell me what talk he gave that you are referring to? Thanks! Sabrina Gardnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02534539041365780547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-81342343597294912242020-08-19T22:15:44.573-07:002020-08-19T22:15:44.573-07:00Some of these false teachings are that 1.tithing i...Some of these false teachings are that 1.tithing is the Lord's money: see leciticus 27:30, malachi 3:8<br />2. that a tithe constitutes ten percent of our total earnings: see genesis 28:22, hebrews 7:2<br />3. that by paying a full tithe God promises to bless us individually: see malachi 3:10<br />4. that tithe paying is a commandment: see numbers 18:26, deut 14:22, D&C 97:12, D&C 119:4<br /><br />Tithing is an ancient practice that was restored by the prophet Joseph Smith. If you believe in continuing revelation, the book of mormon, and the Bible, than you believe in tithing as it stands today. Don't justify not paying tithing, do not rob the Lord.Josiah Klevenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03728943014596508103noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-12075518387309370192019-12-29T18:18:10.073-08:002019-12-29T18:18:10.073-08:00Isn't the whole point of this blog to justify ...Isn't the whole point of this blog to justify paying less tithing as part of the Lord wanting us to prosper?So we should prosper while the Lord's anointed take a meager salary? I wonder how today's saints would have reacted to Solomons riches. Those who do wickedly (rob from God) or proud (over tithe) will burn as stubble. Tithing is genius fire insurance and it's sad just how many saints justify increase as surplus. Pathetic. Alarishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04005157245105914487noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-8619329629823790092019-11-03T01:19:39.605-08:002019-11-03T01:19:39.605-08:00A lot of work went into this article. Thanks for p...A lot of work went into this article. Thanks for proving that comments will help with key words.<br /><a href="https://www.clippingpathquick.com/" title="Clipping Path" rel="nofollow">clipping path</a>Lily Allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04273944587131068751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-85551793194292324372019-04-07T11:21:34.610-07:002019-04-07T11:21:34.610-07:00Hi bro thanks for this great article i really like...<br />Hi bro thanks for this great article i really like this post and i love your blog you;---------------> <a href="https://yahootechnicalworld.blogspot.com/2019/01/jazz-free-internet-2019.html" rel="nofollow">JAZZ MOBLINK 2019 NEW TRICK 10000% WORKING</a> <---------------<br /><br /><a href="https://yahootechnicalworld.blogspot.com/2019/03/Free-Blog-Website-Banan-Ka-Tarika-GuideIn-Urdu-Hindi.html" rel="nofollow">How to creat free website in hindi urdu</a><br /><br /><br /><a href="https://yahootechnicalworld.blogspot.com/2019/03/computer-shortcut-keys-keyboard-sysem-commands-.html" rel="nofollow">---Computer Shortcut Keys Keyboard Shortcuts and System Commands for Popular Programs--</a><br /><-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br /><a href="https://yahootechnicalworld.blogspot.com/2019/02/url-shortener-sites-without-captcha-2019.html" rel="nofollow">--Earn money easy daily 20$</a><br /><br /><br /><a href="https://yahootechnicalworld.blogspot.com/2019/02/how-to-unlock-any-mobile-without-pc.html" rel="nofollow">UNLOCK ANY MOBILE BROKEN CODE PATTERN</a><br />--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br /><a href="https://yahootechnicalworld.blogspot.com/2019/01/Top-best-New-Url-Shortener-Website-2019.html" rel="nofollow">--EARN FREE 100$ WITHOUT INVESTMENT </a><br /><br />------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br /><a href="https://yahootechnicalworld.blogspot.com/2019/03/jazz-mobilink-3g4g-internet-packages-daily-3days-weekly-monthly.html" rel="nofollow">JAZZ MOBLINK LOWEST RATE INTERNET PACKAGES </a><br /><br />--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br /><a href="https://yahootechnicalworld.blogspot.com/2019/04/pakistani-mobile-number-detail-with-name-address-full-data.html" name="" rel="nofollow"> </a><br /><br /><br /><a rel="nofollow">Free do follow backlinks 110+ genrate YOUR WEBSITE</a><br /><br /><a rel="nofollow"> Top 15BEST Google Adsense Alternatives </a><br /><br />===============================================================<br /><a rel="nofollow"> BEST TRICK INCRESS GOOGLE ADSENSE </a><br />-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br /><a rel="nofollow"> Top 15 Highest Paying Affiliate Programs Plaforms List </a><br />----------------<br /><a href="https://yahootechnicalworld.blogspot.com/2019/03/top-six-free-best-web-hosting-plaform.html" rel="nofollow"> FREE WEBHOSTING LIFE TIME BEST HOSTING NO AD UNLIMITED FREE</a>todayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11548723420906756867noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-56099188974954563952018-07-10T18:55:54.120-07:002018-07-10T18:55:54.120-07:00
I got my already programmed and blanked ATM card ...<br />I got my already programmed and blanked ATM card to withdraw the maximum of $1,000 daily for a maximum of 20 days. I am so happy about this because i got mine last week and I have used it to get $20,000. Mike Fisher Hackers is giving out the card just to help the poor and needy though it is illegal but it is something nice and he is not like other scam pretending to have the blank ATM cards. And no one gets caught when using the card. get yours from Mike Fisher Hackers today! Just send an email to blankatm001@aol.com<br />WhatsApp +1 (712) 600 2838 )Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03671886480621950513noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-7834339749150682752018-07-08T13:28:06.510-07:002018-07-08T13:28:06.510-07:00And what do you say in response to continued revel...And what do you say in response to continued revelation to the latter day prophets after 1920, or even 1844? How can you know that none of what any of the prophets have said about tithing, with the exception of lorenzo snow, after Joseph Smith, have not come from the Lord, in superseding His covenant in D&C 119? And as far as other matters the Lord superseded, there's always Moses, and the doctrine given him on his first visit to mount Sinai, soon thereafter replaced with the 10 commandments, or the law of moses, replaced when Christ came to earth, or more recently the word of wisdom, which needed clarification for the members on more than one occasion, the last of which was just a few years ago, or polygamy, which was abolished outright? I of course don't have all the facts on the latter, but what I do know about it was that it Was a commandment, and now it's not. However that came about, would you not call that supersession?BIG DOGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13418900406990969740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-59639569198164279002018-03-30T18:48:52.058-07:002018-03-30T18:48:52.058-07:00Spencer Urban,
Alas, you are falling into the tr...Spencer Urban, <br /><br />Alas, you are falling into the trap of assuming the opinion of a church leader supersedes the word of God. The law of tithing was defined by the Lord IN the law, i.e. section 119. No one has the authority to alter that definition, or expand on it. Widsoe is correct that tithing is ten percent, but ten percent of what? <br /><br />The answer, as the First Presidency reminds us, is ten percent of increase. No one is justified, the statement reads, to make any other statement than this. <br /><br />Our doctrines are defined by the Lord. They are often expanded upon by well-meaning commentary, but unless the words you are reading are part of a revelation in God's voice, you can safely ignore it when it conflicts with what the Lord originally revealed.Alan Rock Watermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-3285752138953619642018-03-30T18:39:52.771-07:002018-03-30T18:39:52.771-07:00Kevin, as I'm sure you're aware, the Inter...Kevin, as I'm sure you're aware, the Internal Revenue Code does not define "income." It should, of course; under statutory law all terms are normally defined, lest the law is vague. But the IRS would prefer citizens to make assumptions as to what "income" is, which is why they do define "Gross Income" but not income itself. Most people then assume that every thing that comes in -properly 'gross income'-is what is meant by the word "income."<br /><br />The courts, however have defined income, in citations too numerous to mention here. But famously the Supreme Court made it pretty clear in Eisner v. Macomber , (1920) (252 U.S 189, at 205):<br /><br />"Income may be defined as the gain derived from capital, from labor, or from both combined", provided it be understood to include profit gained through a sale or conversion of capital assets, to which it was applied in the Doyle case pp. 183, 185.<br />"Derived -- FROM -- capital"; -- "the gain -- derived -- FROM -- capital," etc. Here we have the essential matter: not a gain accruing TO capital, not a growth or increment OF value in the investment; but a gain, a profit, something of exchangeable value proceeding FROM the property, severed from the capital however invested or employed, and coming in, being "derived," that is, received or drawn by the recipient (the Taxpayer) for his separate use, benefit and disposal; -- that is income derived FROM property. Nothing else answers the description."<br /><br />Keep in mind that any time the IRS mentions income it is talking about corporate income. As it pertains to tithing or any other non-corporate funds, as would pertain to the individual wage earner, it retains the meaning it always has: that which is left over after all expenses have been accounted for. <br />Alan Rock Watermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-81161040113183535312018-03-30T11:05:37.837-07:002018-03-30T11:05:37.837-07:00I enjoyed this blog post and found the writing and...I enjoyed this blog post and found the writing and references insightful.<br /><br />I am a bit torn. I understand and agree with the idea of just paying on a true "increase" - i.e., above our basic needs. But I find this advice to be inconsistent with what modern Apostles/Prophets have stated. Forgive me if this has been covered earlier.<br /><br />Here is what I mean:<br />Church leaders have stated that tithing = one's income, without subtracting ("deducting") living expenses. Even the "Bare Necessities." <br />Examples: <br /><br />Elder John A. Widtsoe explained: “Tithing means one-tenth. Those who give less do not really pay tithing; they are lesser contributors to the Latter-day cause of the Lord. Tithing means one-tenth of a person’s income, interest, or increase. The merchant should pay tithing upon the net income of his business, the farmer upon the net income of his farming operations; the wage earner or salaried man upon the wage or salary earned by him. Out of the remaining nine-tenths he pays his current expenses … etc. To deduct living costs … and similar expenses from the income and pay tithing upon the remainder does not conform to the Lord’s commandment. Under such a system most people would show nothing on which to pay tithing. There is really no place for quibbling on this point. Tithing should be given upon the basis of our full earned income. If the nature of a business requires special interpretation, the tithepayer should consult the father of his ward, the bishop.” (Evidences and Reconciliations,2:86.)<br />LINK: https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-student-manual/section-119-the-law-of-tithing?lang=eng<br /><br />One more:<br />President Howard W. Hunter stated it this way: “The law is simply stated as ‘one-tenth of all their interest.’ Interest means profit, compensation, increase. It is the wage of one employed, the profit from the operation of a business, the increase of one who grows or produces, or the income to a person from any other source. The Lord said it is a standing law ‘forever’ as it has been in the past.<br />//Note that the Howard W. Hunter quote is from 1964; but the conference talk *quoting him* below is from 2006.<br />Link: https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2006/10/the-law-of-tithing?lang=engSpencer Urbanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15263727868191862536noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-22489277767469401932018-02-27T15:34:30.703-08:002018-02-27T15:34:30.703-08:00I'm late in the game here, seeing as how this ...I'm late in the game here, seeing as how this was posted 5+ years ago, but I disagree with your interpretation of the Conner v. US opinion. You seem to say that because the court said "if there is no gain, there is no income," that the court was holding that wages were not included as income. But I don't see that. The Court quoted Webster's definition of income (a gain or recurrent benefit usually measured in money that derives from capital or labor) and it quoted the definitions of gross income in the internal revenue code of 1939 and 1954, both of which refer to compensation for services as included in the definition of income. So an insurance payout to reimburse the loss of a home is not taxable income, but wages certainly would be income under any iteration of income tax laws, as I see it. Have I missed something? Do you have other sources for your contention that income did not include wages in 1970 or earlier?Kevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07616986397072934574noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-30690478515586956092018-01-08T14:15:43.839-08:002018-01-08T14:15:43.839-08:00Yes, Kanonb, the links in later posts do open in s...Yes, Kanonb, the links in later posts do open in separate windows. I didn't know how to do it back when I wrote this piece, but the later ones work better. <br /><br />I have not had the ambition to go back and fix all the old posts. Wish I did, but I don't.Alan Rock Watermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-36228347009411353642018-01-06T13:08:42.266-08:002018-01-06T13:08:42.266-08:00Interesting information. Reading your posts, and...Interesting information. Reading your posts, and especially this post referring to Section 119, would be easier if the links opened in a separate tab. Would that be possible for future posts?kanonbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02814321295925533413noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-20634378721392682132017-08-06T13:55:57.552-07:002017-08-06T13:55:57.552-07:00Faith, Family, and Freedom,
I'm having a bit o...Faith, Family, and Freedom,<br />I'm having a bit of trouble following your argument. You point to Noah's link as somehow containing modern revelation, but I don't see any revelation anywhere in there, only statements and opinions from various Church leaders, some of them contradicting revelation. Perhaps you can point to the precise words of the Lord where he conveyed a revelation to one of his prophets that supercedes His previous instructions on this matter?<br /><br />I would direct you again to the First Presidency statement of 1970 (also included in Noah's printout) that reiterates the original word of the Lord that tithing is one tenth of all one's interest, and that it is to be paid annually, and that "no one is justified in making any other statement than this."<br /><br />If you are aware of any instance where the Lord has issued a revelation through a prophet since 1970 in which He has superceded His original instructions, I would very much like to read it.<br />Alan Rock Watermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-83402230034718966082017-02-13T09:17:00.129-08:002017-02-13T09:17:00.129-08:00Wow Noah thanks for the sources! Modern prophets a...Wow Noah thanks for the sources! Modern prophets are very clear on this subject. Tithing is 10% of ALL income and should be priority over other things. I don't think anyone should be trying to twist language from earlier revelations to avoid following what the prophets have said today. Last time I checked, modern revelation supersedes past revelation (though of course past revelation is still scripture)<br /><br />Does it concern me to put tithing (interpreted as 10% of ALL income by modern prophets) over bills? No.<br /><a href="https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/matt/19.29?lang=eng#28" rel="nofollow">Matthew 19:29</a> "And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life."Faith, Family, Freedomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14065933776385488863noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-77487490878497245422016-11-23T09:31:46.902-08:002016-11-23T09:31:46.902-08:00I found this collection of councils from various C...I found this collection of councils from various Church leaders over the years, specifically about calculating tithing. It appears to be a handout by a teacher at BYU Idaho.<br /><br />http://emp.byui.edu/marrottr/tithingpayonwhat.pdf<br /><br />Seems to clarify things quite a bit, (unless you think they are operating on incorrect information and their own personal testimonies are invalid...)Noahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10413937155559362231noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-4694570122677242842016-09-19T07:48:45.124-07:002016-09-19T07:48:45.124-07:00Wendell Pulsipher,
You write, "Modern revelat...Wendell Pulsipher,<br />You write, "Modern revelation clearly states that tithing needs to take priority over anything else financially and that it is 10%."<br /><br />I would very much appreciate if you would kindly cite that revelation. Of course we know that tithing is 10%. I do not dispute that. But I have not seen a modern revelation on tithing. The most recent STATEMENT we have on the topic, as I cited in my piece, was the statement of the First Presidency, and that was way back in 1970. In that statement, the First Presidency reiterated the Lord's original revelation, where the Lord said tithing was ten percent of increase, and that it was to be paid annually. That, of course, is the gist of my argument, and I certainly have no quarrel with the Lord's statement in that revelation. If you are aware of a further revelation from the Lord where He states that tithing needs to take priority over anything else financially, I would very much like to read it.<br /><br />Thank you for your kind good wishes.Alan Rock Watermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-25710541797806913032016-08-26T18:42:34.105-07:002016-08-26T18:42:34.105-07:00This post is for Weston in the hopes he sees it on...This post is for Weston in the hopes he sees it one day. I and my son have been homeless a few times...my bishops always knew and let us be homeless. I am not a drug crazed criminal. I happen to be a veteran. Us army. Someone who paid with mind,body and soul to defend you and your freedoms. Rewarded with poverty, loneliness, and pain. Sent home expected to sleep on the very streets we defended. I am also a single mother so..Weston...thanks for the judgmental slurr.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06506669146651339558noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-12947927149495849312016-03-11T14:42:11.660-08:002016-03-11T14:42:11.660-08:00I'm sorry you feel the way you do about tithin...I'm sorry you feel the way you do about tithing. Modern revelation clearly states that tithing needs to take priority over anything else financially and that it is 10%. That has been clearly defined. I hope your fears about accepting and living the law of tithing, evidenced by your article, can be calmed by the Holy Ghost so that you don't see the need to pick and choose how closely and exactly you follow the commandments of our loving Savior. May you have a wonderful day and may the Lord help you come to a more clear understanding of His laws.W Paul Pulsipherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12606705618368423509noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-55027205269785872712016-03-11T02:46:46.292-08:002016-03-11T02:46:46.292-08:00I too liked your post and comments, they were well...I too liked your post and comments, they were well thought out and well cited...I agree with your rendition of what a "tithe" is and what it is proportionally to ones circumstances in life.<br /><br />Having stated this, I am at wonder, where the actual "INCOME" .....unless I missed in this post?.....from surplus actually came into being [ It is alive{Dr.Frankenstein} ]<br /><br />...Dont get me wrong I disagree with you on some things, but agree IF THE CHURCH had its books open previously, why not now? I am not one to compel or fight to see it,because it is they that eventually have to face Christ, and if they did evil, then thank God I am not in their place.... but if "they" church leadership were accountable to the people back then at conferences, then this should still be the bench mark, for all, even today.mormons sonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14717928160313285185noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-372856716511455772016-03-06T10:39:26.543-08:002016-03-06T10:39:26.543-08:00Rock
Are you aware of the new discoveries concern...Rock<br /><br />Are you aware of the new discoveries concerning tithing?<br /><br />http://juvenileinstructor.org/understanding-interest-in-joseph-smiths-original-tithing-revelation/comment-page-2/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-86066087211530541602016-01-04T09:03:42.769-08:002016-01-04T09:03:42.769-08:00Dizzy Angel says he "couldn't even finish...Dizzy Angel says he "couldn't even finish reading this crap," yet he is acutely aware of everything left out of the piece he didn't finish reading.<br /><br />Clever trick. Alan Rock Watermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-14344195216310112462016-01-03T10:22:55.533-08:002016-01-03T10:22:55.533-08:00I had to laugh, I couldn't even finish reading...I had to laugh, I couldn't even finish reading this crap. I'm a member of the church and the writer here completely just skips right over the humanitarian aid section of tithing. I am also a receiver of food benefits from the church.<br /><br />yeah that's right, part of tithing goes to humanitarian aid, which can benefit you if you're short on bills and you can get food every two weeks, at least in my area, if you need it.<br /><br />our priesthood is also unpaid. So it definitely doesn't go to them.the misinformation hereand deliberate omission for sake of vilification is astounding.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14700089630040979300noreply@blogger.com