tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post7082128765704823863..comments2024-03-13T12:52:19.391-07:00Comments on Pure Mormonism: Are We Paying Too Much Tithing?Alan Rock Watermanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comBlogger367125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-61753736164612564952017-06-17T11:11:32.225-07:002017-06-17T11:11:32.225-07:00YoBit allows you to claim FREE COINS from over 100...<b><a href="http://btcx.syntaxlinks.com/r/YoBit" rel="nofollow">YoBit</a></b> allows you to claim <b>FREE COINS</b> from over <b><i>100</i></b> unique crypto-currencies, you complete a captcha one time and claim as much as coins you want from the available offers.<br /><br />After you make about 20-30 claims, you complete the captcha and continue claiming.<br /><br /><b>You can click CLAIM as many times as 30 times per one captcha.</b><br /><br />The coins will <b>stored</b> in your account, and you can exchange them to Bitcoins or USD.Bloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07287821785570247118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-42198570668925685812014-01-12T00:39:02.126-08:002014-01-12T00:39:02.126-08:00I also feel far more in line with Christ's tea...I also feel far more in line with Christ's teachings when I give directly to the fatherless and poor that I know around me, instead of to a church that I see ignores those same fatherless and poor, and appears to use sacred money meant for the poor to instead build things like large and spacious buildings and malls and to fun colleges and missionary work, etc,. which may be nice things but if the Church puts those things ahead of making sure there are no poor among them, then all their other good deeds and service are in vain, as the scriptures say. For God will not hear the prayers or recognize the doings of those who neglect the needy and the fatherless. <br><br>Now that I am finally following the Savior's commandments to give 'all' my excess money and time to the poor, instead of following the commandments of men to give it to them to use on almost everything but the poor, I can see that we will be under condemnation if we do give our excess money to men in the Church who don't use all of it for the fatherless and the poor. <br><br>God will ask us why we didn't give our tithing directly to the fatherless as he clearly directed by his words, but instead gave our money/tithing to men, false men, who said give it to them, yet who gave only a small portion of it to the fatherless, or ignored them all together, which is what I'm seeing happening all around me in the Church.Anon 23noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-10062203597435099672014-01-10T11:32:54.474-08:002014-01-10T11:32:54.474-08:00Rico, I'm sorry if you got the impression I di...Rico, I'm sorry if you got the impression I disparaged anyone's testimony. What I said was there is nothing in the law of tithing that promises blessings to those who pay tithing.<br><br>That certainly doesn't mean God cannot pour out his blessings on whomever he chooses.<br><br>Although I hear the occasional story of a family who credits tithepaying with recent material blessings, I have seen far more stories of devoted members who paid more than a full tithe for years and years and their situations never improved. In many cases their lives grew more desperate. A typical example is the comment above from "Anonymous" dated December 13, 2013 at 11:58 am.<br><br>I do receive regular letters from readers who tell me that their lives have been blessed immensely more since they focused the bulk of their giving on fast offerings and alms to the poor. Many tell me they see the building up of a Zion society to be of much more importance than building up the earthly Church, and have found greater blessings in sharing their means unconditionally with others.<br>Alan Rock Watermanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-49310063457382511222014-01-10T04:40:18.160-08:002014-01-10T04:40:18.160-08:00I am sorry if I didn't read all the previous c...I am sorry if I didn't read all the previous comments but while I find the historical analysis praise worthy (history-making is my trade), I don't think that I can grasp any transcendental meaning to it. And I mean that I am not sure if you pretend to disqualify the faith that thousands of individuals put in paying a "full tithe." From your words it might seem that their stories of blessings, material and spiritual, might be product of a worldwide conspiracy or to some kind of physiological disorder (mass hysteria). I am curious to know whether you believe, according to the evidence that you have presented, that their accounts are false or misrepresented.Rico S.http://www.blogger.com/profile/15489399837621569688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-35629606035193114112014-01-09T18:02:14.196-08:002014-01-09T18:02:14.196-08:00Steven Lester, I'll just admire you and apprec...Steven Lester, I'll just admire you and appreciate what you wrote, from afar. I hope that makes you feel more comfortable.kindfoodfarmhttp://kindfoodfarm.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-20285246649594163552014-01-09T17:22:12.855-08:002014-01-09T17:22:12.855-08:00That was beautiful.That was beautiful.kindfoodfarmhttp://kindfoodfarm.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-15291076450856076392013-12-29T12:29:27.070-08:002013-12-29T12:29:27.070-08:00My turn to indoctrinate the 8 yr olds in Primary t...My turn to indoctrinate the 8 yr olds in Primary today in the Law of Tithing, interesting to review this blog entry, still not sure how I'll proceed (I want to at least leave a door open to the original doctrine, w/out getting into too much trouble). Anyway, thanks Rock for your time that you put into this.PNW_DPernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-68889590390565369142013-12-16T07:08:27.989-08:002013-12-16T07:08:27.989-08:00many thanks rock!many thanks rock!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-89160849900510863442013-12-14T18:43:08.600-08:002013-12-14T18:43:08.600-08:00(Continued)2. The 1970 statement on tithing was a ...(Continued)<br><br>2. The 1970 statement on tithing was a response to many questions that arose from members who were not clear about what they should pay tithing on. Should it be their gross paycheck, or their take home pay? Were they allowed to deduct child support, alimony, etc? What about their mortage? Grocery costs? There were a lot of questions, because some bishops were telling their members they had to pay on their gross, or that they should pay tithing the first thing when they receive their paychecks, and some bishops were advising something else. So the members wanted the straight scoop. Exactly what were they supposed to pay on, and when were they supposed to pay? It didn't help that section 119 used the word "interest" at a time when the only thing most members thought that could possibly mean was interest on their savings accounts.<br><br>So a number of local leaders asked for clarification, and the Brethren responded by saying "the simplest statement we know of is the statement of the Lord himself, namely, that the members of the Church should pay 'one-tenth of all their interest annually,' which is understood to mean income."<br><br>Now, some feel that the First Presidency didn't clarify anything at all when they used the word "income" to define what was meant by "interest," since by 1970 most Americans had come to believe that "income" meant the same as "gross income," or "everything that comes in." <br><br>But the Brethren were technically correct. Both "interest" and "Income" mean, in this usage, surplus money left over after expenses within a a specified period of time. And that period of time was to be annually. Once a year, not once every payday.<br><br>A cynic might say that the Brethren hoped most people would interpret "income" in the way it is commonly assumed today, so that the members would contribute more than they were actually required to pay. I wouldn't know. All I can say is that when the leaders of the LDS Church issue a statement, you can be sure it has been very carefully crafted and gone over again and again. So yes, some members who are not aware of the proper meaning of "income" might continue to be fooled into paying tithing on their gross wages. I think this statement was carefully worded so that those who had eyes to see would see. They did quote the Lord as using the word "interest' after all. And they were also correct in saying that "interest" is understood to mean "income." It IS understood to mean income. It was understood that way in the 19th century, and it is today among those who understand the legal meaning of the word. Those who wish to assume something else are welcome to overpay. <br><br>3. I don't know what you mean when you say they changed tithing many times after 1970. Individual General Authorities have given talks in conference where they expressed positions that differed from God's word and from the 1970 First Presidency statement, but that doesn't change tithing any more than when some member of your ward gives a Sacrament meeting talk expressing his opinion on it. The law of tithing has never changed. Only some people's false understanding of it has.<br><br>4. Yes, it's clear from the wording of the First Presidency Statement of 1970 that no revelation was received or conveyed when issuing that statement. No revelation was claimed. They were merely reiterating the original law, making it clear that nothing changed in the law of tithing since the original revelation, and declaring that no one was justified in making any other statement about tithing than that originally issued by the Lord. <br><br>Alan Rock Watermanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-72031934056135133342013-12-14T18:40:01.949-08:002013-12-14T18:40:01.949-08:00Anonymous, I'll try to respond to your questio...Anonymous, I'll try to respond to your questions in the order you asked them:<br><br>1. You ask "why didn't they write surplus instead of interest?"<br><br>Well, in the first place, the word "interest" was commonly used and understood in early America in a way that we don't use it today. These days we think of "interest" primarily as the extra money we pay on a credit card, or the extra money we earn from a savings account. That is a valid way to think about "interest" -as something we receive or are paid -or that we owe- that is "extra." Above and beyond what we normally need to live on.<br><br>Although the words "surplus" and "interest" are virtually synonymous and often interchangeable, there are subtle shades of meaning to each word. You'll notice that in translating God's intent, Joseph Smith used each of those words in section 119 in different places And indeed, he seems to have used them precisely right to convey what the Lord intended. <br><br> In verse one, the Lord says he requires all the surplus property. That was the extra property, goods, produce, crops, and money that was existing among the Saints at that time. He states that was the beginning of the tithing of His people. So that part's over; it was a one time deal. The giving of all our surplus is no longer required. We don't join the church today and turn over all our extra property. That was a kickstarter to get things going.<br><br>Then the Lord says "after that" the Saints were to pay 10 percent of all their "interest" annually. Why not simply say "surplus" again? Because "interest" denotes money or property accrued over a specified period of time. That's why the Lord specified it was to be paid yearly. At the end of the year Americans -at least in the old days -annually took stock of what they earned, what they lost, what they required to live on, and what gain they had left over.<br><br>The money left over beyond our needs and minus our losses and expenses is our "interest." We pay 10 percent of that for the operating expenses of the church. It's supposed to be just a little bit from every member, and when the Church is operating within its means, all those little bits added up should be just enough to cover the administrative expenses of the Church. <br><br>(Continued Below)Alan Rock Watermanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-30855210749435724072013-12-13T15:06:47.669-08:002013-12-13T15:06:47.669-08:00Very well done. I am curious what you think about:...Very well done. I am curious what you think about:<br><br>1 - Why didn't they write surplus in the D&C instead of interest. I suppose they could have concerned with overuse of the word, conscience of their grade school English class. But i don't know.<br>2 -When they tried to clarify it in 1970, does the phrase - which is understood to mean income - actually mean they only want the interest only from your income, and not other sources. I think they were trying to clarify it, but instead - interest of income isn't familiar.<br>3 - If they did change tithing, and it looks like they have done so many times based on one of your sources, after the reset in 1970, does it matter? That standing law forever seems to get in the way. But i think that 1970 statement is definitive now.<br>4 - Does it seem from the statement, that there isn't revelation involved? The phrase: We feel that every member of the Church should be entitled to make his own decision as to what he thinks he owes the Lord, and to make payment accordingly. Those instruction are totally void of receive direction / inspiration.<br><br>I have a copy of the statement by the way. My Bishop has me make a batch of them every year as people as what tithing is.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-74181050252214133822013-12-13T12:12:38.972-08:002013-12-13T12:12:38.972-08:00I'm very happy to hear stories like this, beca...I'm very happy to hear stories like this, because the Lord does not want us to give our all to the Church to the detriment of the well-being of our families. I'm only saddened that you suffered so long giving your money to the Corporate Church under the false belief that you were giving to the Lord. Imagine the good you could have done with all that squandered money had you funneled it into alms for the needy instead of supporting priestcraft!. And imagine the actual blessings you would have received by now had your donations actually been used for the Lord's true purposes by providing for the needs of others!<br><br>Thank you for adding your testimony here, and as you are able to put what little you can toward serving others, I'm sure you will begin to finally see those promised blessings, and your family will finally begin to prosper. Most of us have been doing it all wrong for years, ignoring the needy (and our own family's needs) in favor of supporting an institution that refuses to be accountable to the members for the money it has already received. But that's what repentance is for. We can all start doing the right thing from here on out.<br><br>Good luck, and may God be with you!Alan Rock Watermanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-19181843237037139492013-12-13T11:58:23.826-08:002013-12-13T11:58:23.826-08:00This post is a blessing. I have literally just bee...This post is a blessing. I have literally just been sitting here at my desk crying over my checkbook (it's christmas and I don't have enough money to even finish shopping for my kids) - if I pay my tithing right now (I've never missed - ever and have always paid gross on my paychecks) - I wont have enough to even buy groceries. My dilemma for the last hour has been "do I pay tithing and trust that God will provide for needs" or "do I pay the other bills sitting here" - I have been trusting in God for the last five years that our business has suffered and we are NOWHERE! In fact, we just filed BK and I am sure the Trustee is thinking "what the hell are you spending $590 a month on 'tithing'?" Tithing has let me down. This church has let me down. At great personal sacrifice (almost losing my home and now in BK) - have I paid tithing! At one point, when we had to let go of our bookkeeper (we eventually had to let all of our 28 employees go and our office - we are hanging by a thread now) - I started taking over the books and saw that there was an account in QB listed as "loan to shareholders" - that would be my husband and myself. Apparently, any monies we took out of the business were being booked as "loan to shareholder" - this made me realize that we had not paid taxes on these, nor had we paid tithing!! (this was obviously not going to get paid back by us ever since it was approximately $300,000 (over a 10year period of time) - I literally wrote a check to the church for $30,000 to cover this money so that I could feel like I was being honest in my efforts to tithe and not "rob" God. This $30,000 came at a time when our business was failing and we were letting employees go. Where was this post in 2008? I could sure use that $30,000 right now. This post was a needed blessing in that - I just voided my tithing check for $590 and changed it to $116 - 10% of my surplus. Thank you. a huge burden has been lifted. huge.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-15954645647901387322013-11-25T00:12:25.256-08:002013-11-25T00:12:25.256-08:00Thank you for your post !!..I totally agree with m...Thank you for your post !!..I totally agree with most of what you said. The current definition of tithing has been misinterpreted causing many members to fall away or not join the church. They cannot progress in the priesthood or receive temple blessings. Being unable to pay they feel like second class citizens and guilty. Like the Joseph Smith translation of Genesis 14 about Abraham paying tithing to Melchezidek of all he possesed that the Lord gave him more than his NEEDS. As a person gets more of a testimony of tithing they will strive to live more prudently and reduce the costs of their needs. The beauty of the law will surface meaning, I want to give the Lords more money so I don't need to drive a BMW I can drive a Ford Taurus, I don't have to live in a five bedroom house we can get by in a 3 bedroom house , I don't have to buy fancy clothes or eat steak and lobster when I can eat spaghetti . Get my drift.? Some people have unusual expenses like paying alimony to an ex wife or supporting aged parents on disability. Some have more mouths to feed .more medical expenses. .Can you imagine what will happen when Obamacare kicks in?. Some live in expensive cities where housing cost are high or extreme weather conditions where heating and air conditioning costs are high A strict across the board 10 percent no matter what your expenses are is not what the Lord intended. It's common sense! I'm just sorry there appears to be noone in authority who is willing to correct the problem. It would be embarrassing for the church after all these years of misinterpretation of the law.. May we all pray for the Lord's intervention to correct this massive error .. May I say I believe the church to be true but I also believe that those in authority can make mistakes. SW AnonymousAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-16821439438341858692013-11-18T09:41:57.018-08:002013-11-18T09:41:57.018-08:00Rock,This has been a very thought provoking articl...Rock,<br><br>This has been a very thought provoking article. While the video Window of Heaven might mislead others to think that the prophet promised rain to those that paid and honest tithe.<br><br>You wrote:<br><br>And though he did speak about tithing, Snow exhibited no dramatic revelation received in the middle of his talk, and he did not promise rain if the people would pay their tithing. In fact, contrary to the main message of the movie, there was no connection made whatsoever between the drought and tithing. Good thing, too, because it would have been embarrassing. There was a little bit of rain here and there over the next three years, but the drought cycle didn't end in St. George until 1902. <br><br>I'm not sure how he received the revelation and really don't care. Someone took creative license.<br><br>However, it should be noted that the payment of their tithing did result in temporal blessings and that SHOULD be focused upon as faith promoting if not building in the principle of tithing.<br><br>This comes from the LDS website under the Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Lorenzo Snow chapter 12 on tithing.<br><br>President Snow had repeatedly assured the Saints that they would be blessed individually, both temporally and spiritually, as they obeyed the law of tithing.(See, for example, Deseret Evening News, June 24, 1899, 3. Contemporary transcripts of President Snow’s discourses and contemporary newspaper articles about his travels show that while he promised the Saints that they would be blessed temporally as well as spiritually as they obeyed the law of tithing, he did not specifically promise an end to the drought in southern Utah.) That promise was partially fulfilled in August 1899, when the people of St. George enjoyed temporary relief from their drought; their faith was rewarded with 2.93 inches of rain, more than they had received in the previous 13 months combined.(See Western Regional Climate Center, http://www.wrcc.dri.edu/cgi-bin/cliMONtpre.pl?utstge) <br><br>While agree with most of what you wrote, I don't want the lesson and blessings to get lost from paying tithing... Whatever those who read deem it to be.<br><br>Again, thanks for challenging a currently held belief.Ryan Nickelhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13388511851012919356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-67174148685739857702013-11-17T19:37:16.469-08:002013-11-17T19:37:16.469-08:00Rock,This was eye opening to me. However a few thi...Rock,<br><br>This was eye opening to me. However a few things didn't sit well with me and I wanted to look them up and have references for them. <br><br>To quote you:<br><br>"And though he did speak about tithing, Snow exhibited no dramatic revelation received in the middle of his talk, and he did not promise rain if the people would pay their tithing. In fact, contrary to the main message of the movie, there was no connection made whatsoever between the drought and tithing. Good thing, too, because it would have been embarrassing. There was a little bit of rain here and there over the next three years, but the drought cycle didn't end in St. George until 1902."<br><br>I'm not sure how he received the revelation, nor care. I do know that he referred to it on several occasions as a revelation. <br><br>However, what I wanted to find out was just when did rain fall and how much. I get your point that the film makes a clear distinction between paying your tithing and precipitation where President Snow never made any such promise. <br><br>In fact this is what he said and the resulting rain fall in response:<br><br>"President Snow had repeatedly assured the Saints that they would be blessed individually, both temporally and spiritually, as they obeyed the law of tithing. (See, for example, Deseret Evening News, June 24, 1899, 3. Contemporary transcripts of President Snow’s discourses and contemporary newspaper articles about his travels show that while he promised the Saints that they would be blessed temporally as well as spiritually as they obeyed the law of tithing, he did not specifically promise an end to the drought in southern Utah.) That promise was partially fulfilled in August 1899, when the people of St. George enjoyed temporary relief from their drought; their faith was rewarded with 2.93 inches of rain, more than they had received in the previous 13 months combined. (See Western Regional Climate Center, http://www.wrcc.dri.edu/cgi-bin/cliMONtpre.pl?utstge)"<br><br>I do find it miraculous and faith promoting that the saints in southern Utah were blessed temporally for their faithfulness. I believe the same can be said for those that pay an honest tithe, whatever that may be.Ryan Nickelhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13388511851012919356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-73860015873336358172013-10-24T09:45:26.855-07:002013-10-24T09:45:26.855-07:00Thanks. That sounds like something I can do. The i...Thanks. That sounds like something I can do. The idea of being released because of it makes the idea even more attractive! <br><br>I imagine his response will be something like, "it gives people the chance to sit down and talk with their bishop once a year." I've heard him say something like this before. I suppose he is correct if he defines "gives people the chance" as "all but forces people". I mean, people constantly have "the chance" to sit down with him throughout the year. One phone call gets them an appointment for as long as they desire.<br><br>Anyway, I'll let you know how it goes.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-40419302356894250532013-10-23T20:54:49.864-07:002013-10-23T20:54:49.864-07:00Sounds like you're in a tough spot allright. I...Sounds like you're in a tough spot allright. It wasn't long ago that tithing settlement was a time set aside by the bishop so that those who WANTED to have a few minutes to settle things could. It was never intended to be mandatory at all.<br><br>I guess the only thing you can do is point this out to the bishop and ask him why we feel it necessary to hound people to come in who don't have any proclivity to do so? And this is important: Ask him for the scriptural justification for tithing settlement. If all he can show you is something out of the CHI, tell him you would rather follow your promptings in this matter and stop bothering people about it. After all, why would anyone need to be pushed into a tithing settlement situation? Either they have paid a full tithe or they haven't. It isn't the bishop's place to play daddy.<br><br>The worst he can do is get upset with you and release you. And I have yet to meet a ward clerk who wasn't desperate to get out of that calling.Alan Rock Watermanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-35450305744051970102013-10-23T16:43:34.882-07:002013-10-23T16:43:34.882-07:00Rock,You've been having a good discussion on F...Rock,<br><br>You've been having a good discussion on FB with my wife regarding tithes. Thank you for your input! Here's the funny thing. I'm the ward clerk! My views on this have completely changed since last year when I was the one bullying people to make their tithing settlement appointments. I didn't really like bothering people to make appointments in the first place - but now I'm totally against tithing settlement in general. Since we're coming up on that time of year again, I was wondering if you have any thoughts on how I could go about my quazi-rebellion in a tactful way. My bishop literally has me call people until they submit to the meeting. If they refuse, he calls them and does settlement over the phone. It is excruciating even if you're gung ho in favor of the meetings. <br><br>Any ideas would be much appreciated.<br><br>Btw, I've loved reading all your articles ever since we met on The Daily Paul. I'm hooked on this stuff. Thanks for all the time you put into this blog.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-19287199090796923412013-10-22T19:53:05.390-07:002013-10-22T19:53:05.390-07:00Allan, I presume your question is directed at Stev...Allan, I presume your question is directed at Steven Lester, because I don't think I used the term "Tanner Conspiracy." What I know about Tanner I gleaned from several sources, and I'm not certain I remember all of them. Foremost would probably have been Michael Quinn's The Mormon Hierarchy, and I suppose I read some stuff about him in Greg Prince's biography of David O. McKay.<br><br>The Henry Moyle biography comes to mind. I tried reading Tanner's biography (I think the author was Homer Durham). That book was absolutely useless as a source for anything unfavorable about the man. It was a puff piece, and it smelled of something Tanner had hired to have written for him.<br><br>Really a boring book. Tanner took this trip to visit a mission in that country, then he went to visit a mission in another country. Nothing that I could see about his financial dealings whatsoever.<br><br>There was a hint that his conference talk was written by a staff member, as he stopped in to read it over. It makes sense that anything theological would have had to be supplied to him.<br><br>I would work harder at locating my sources, but I'm under the gun to get some work done. Hope that helped a little.Alan Rock Watermanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-30293847213886351172013-10-14T20:26:57.081-07:002013-10-14T20:26:57.081-07:00do you have any sources for Tanner conspiracy? &qu...do you have any sources for Tanner conspiracy? <br>"no man has done more to stray the church"Allannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-40188175221556456542013-10-06T12:29:27.744-07:002013-10-06T12:29:27.744-07:00Did the Savior ever use the word 'interest'...Did the Savior ever use the word 'interest' or 'profit' or 'surplus' or did he call for a 10% of anything as tithing? Just curious, for I'm not sure. <br><br>All I know is that no matter what Joseph may have preached, we are to compare it to what Christ taught, to see if it is right or not, for Joseph was wrong about alot of things. Didn't Christ teach us to give 'all' our excess (that we don't need to take care of our family with) to the single mothers around us (fatherless)? <br><br>The scriptures say that the whole pure essence & reason for religion is to relieve the suffering of single mothers who have lost or been abandoned or abused by their bread winner and thus who are made to have to earn money & neglect their more important duty as mothers & grandmothers.. <br><br>The main reason we go to Church is to learn how to take care of these single mothers, otherwise our prayers and all else we do is in vain and will not save us.<br><br>To use tithing to build a church or temple or for church debts or businesses is useless, for going to that church building or temple will do us no good as long as we aren't using 'all' the tithing to take care of the single mothers & other poor among us. <br><br>As long as there are still poor among us there should be no churches or temples built, certainly never a penny should be given to church leaders for support, for the Book of Mormon is very clear that prophets & leaders are to support themselves while serving in the Church. <br><br>It would be the height of evil to use 'tithing money' to support a prophet or leader, when it should or could have gone to the suffering single mothers who have to leave their homes & children & go to work.<br><br>It appears that even Joseph still didn't understand Christ's teachings fully in regards to the fatherless & poor & tithing. God would/could never reveal contrary revelation to Joseph to build a temple before taking care of all the poor among them. Once there are no more poor or needy among us, THEN we can use tithing to build temples, for Sunday family church meetings, etc., as they were mean't to be used. <br><br>But bottom line, God never intended us to just give 10% of anything, for Christ asked for 100% of our surplus, so that there are no more poor among us. but we go away sorrowfully because that's too hard to give, it's hard for me too, while we all watch the many single mothers around us who have to neglect their families & work to pay their bills. <br><br>GIving money to the Church will not be an excuse either, for we all know the Church doesn't use it all on the single mothers & the poor, we all can see how they are still ignored & have to go to work despite how rich the Church is. Thus we will be accountable who we give our money to and how it is then used.<br><br>Best to give it directly to the single mothers you know so they can stay home with their children and grandchildren and not have to work to earn money. Otherwise, our religion, faith & prayer are all in vain and will do us no good.<br><br>Righteousness is measured by how we make sure single mothers don't have to work or suffer.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-54937846192023610362013-10-04T22:15:35.050-07:002013-10-04T22:15:35.050-07:00I have a Facsimile First Edition of Noah Webster&#...I have a Facsimile First Edition of Noah Webster's 1828 American Dictionary of the English Language. I looked up the definition of the word "interest" in the context as explained by Rock and he is correct.Gary Huntnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-26761193279310695062013-10-04T13:22:14.472-07:002013-10-04T13:22:14.472-07:00Here's the full definition. You'll note th...Here's the full definition. You'll note there are two sections for the word, the first being the verb form, i.e. having a passion for something. Scroll down to the second definition, the one that defines the word as a noun and you'll find definitions 2 through 5 pertinent to this discussion, particularly number 5. That one -number 5- would be the meaning most compatible with section 119 of the D&C.<br><br>Since the definition given in number 3 mentions the word "profit," it would help to look up Webster's definition of that word in the same dictionary, and you'll see it is synonymous with income, interest, and surplus. And as "advantage" is used in definition 5 , it's a good idea to look up the actual use of that word, too.<br><br>Just as an aside, even today the word "interest" is thought of primarily as a smaller sum of money rather than the larger amount, as money earned on a principal sum, such as interest you might earn if you had a savings account in a bank. Your interest is not the larger sum of money you placed in the bank, it's a much smaller amount derived from the principal. So it is with tithing. You don't pay on the gross, the Lord asks only payment against the small amount of interest. Anyway, here's what Webster says in full:<br><br>IN'TEREST, verb transitive [Latin inter and esse.]<br><br>1. To concern; to affect; to excite emotion or passion, usually in favor, but sometimes against a person or thing. A narration of suffering interests us in favor of the sufferer. We are interested in the story or in the fate of the sufferer. We are interested to know the result, issue or event of an enterprise. It is followed by in or for. We are interested in the narration, but for the sufferer.<br><br>2. To give a share in. Christ, by his atonement, has interested believers in the blessings of the covenant of grace.<br><br>3. To have a share.<br><br>We are not all interested in the public funds, but we are all interested in the happiness of a free government.<br><br>4. To engage; as, to interest one in our favor.<br><br>To interest one's self, is to take a share or concern in.<br><br>IN'TEREST, noun Concern; advantage; good; as private interest; public interest <br><br>Divisions hinder the common interest and public good.<br><br>1. Influence over others. They had now lost their interest at court.<br><br>He knew his interest sufficient to procure the office.<br><br>2. Share; portion; part; participation in value. He has parted with his interest in the stocks. He has an interest in a manufactory of cotton goods.<br><br>3. Regard to private profit.<br><br>'Tis interest calls off all her sneaking train.<br><br>4. Premium paid for the use of money; the profit per cent derived from money lent, or property used by another person, or from debts remaining unpaid. Commercial states have a legal rate of interest Debts on book bear an interest after the expiration of the credit. Courts allow interest in many cases where it is not stipulated. A higher rate of interest than that which the law allows, is called usury.<br><br>Simple interest is that which arises from the principal sum only.<br><br>Compound interest is that which arises from the principal with the interest added; interest on interest <br><br>5. Any surplus advantage.<br><br>I've long felt having a copy of Webster's 1828 is as essential a tool as Strong's Concordance. Everyone should have one of these on their shelf if they have any desire for understanding scripture.<br>Alan Rock Watermanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-68259052541910225812013-10-04T12:47:46.040-07:002013-10-04T12:47:46.040-07:00Unfortunately not all online Webster's diction...Unfortunately not all online Webster's dictionaries are created equal. Even some of the online versions are abridged, so if you looked up the word "interest" for instance, you might see only the definition that comports with "I have an interest in agriculture" or "I'm interested in going up the mountain. What you want is to get your hands on a photographic replica of Noah Webster's original publication. You can find them on sale for a reasonable price, and I feel it's essential for understanding the meaning of words as they would have been used by Joseph Smith and his contemporaries.<br><br>Give me a minute and I'll see if I can't reproduce all the definitions for the word "interest." My computer is acting real slow, so I'll produce all the definitions for that word below after I reboot.<br><br>Alan Rock Watermanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.com