tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post6880725938936414623..comments2024-03-26T21:27:42.278-07:00Comments on Pure Mormonism: Botching ZionAlan Rock Watermanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comBlogger76125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-27330836799231570732020-04-26T13:24:55.167-07:002020-04-26T13:24:55.167-07:00Hi Viewers Get your Blank ATM card that works in a...<br /><br />Hi Viewers Get your Blank ATM card that works in all ATM machines all over the world.. We have specially programmed ATM cards that can be used to hack ATM machines, the ATM cards can be used to withdraw at the ATM or swipe, at stores and POS. We sell this cards to all interested buyers worldwide, the card has a daily withdrawal limit of $1,000 on ATM and up to $20,000 spending limit in stores depending on the kind of card you order for, we are here for you anytime, any day. Email; (blankatm002@gmail.com) I'm grateful to Mike because he changed my story all of a sudden . The card works in all countries except, contact him now (blankatm002@gmail.com) Kavita Pheerangeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17986839478566226348noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-75003703264544999782017-09-18T10:48:17.911-07:002017-09-18T10:48:17.911-07:00Jason, I am of the belief that Zion represents a h...Jason, I am of the belief that Zion represents a higher form of existence - one where all know Christ, and all look out for the welfare of others before that of themselves. In such a society, government is unnecessary. All forms of government, even within the church, is only required because of the fall. In Zion we will be redeemed from the fall. Now - a further opinion about the fall:<br /><br />The bedrock of babylon is the spirit of competition, which is the actual spirit of contention that Christ referred to in 3 Nephi 12. It is the imbedded characteristic that we have of comparing ourselves to others, and judging our own worth based on our comparison with others. This attitude by very definition requires judgment - of ourselves and others. It is so ingrained in each of us that to strip ourselves of this (of jealousies and fears - D&C 67:10) is extremely difficult, but it is this characteristic that keeps us separated from each other, and thus keeps us separated from Christ. In the intercessory prayer, Christ first thanked the Father for their oneness, then for the oneness of the chosen 12. Then He prayed for the oneness of all those who heard their words. This oneness is impossible as long as we continue to embrace babylon - this spirit of contention or comparison. <br /><br />By eating of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil, Eve introduced judgment into the world - and with this judgment came contention, comparison, and separation - the very opposite of oneness that Christ prayed for, the very opposite of Zion. This is the meaning of having a broken heart and a contrite spirit. This is the meaning of becoming as a little child. <br /><br />We only need government until we are redeemed. As soon as there is no longer a spirit of contention and competition - the spirit of babylon - we will no longer need government - we will have Zion; first in our hearts, then gathered in a community.<br /><br />This is a revolutionary concept, and certainly not what we have all been taught in our families, in our communities, and in our churches. Society is based on this characteristic of fallen man. That is why Zion will be based upon a completely different paradigm - one that is not based on the spirit of babylon. This is what is meant by forsaking babylon, or leaving babylon - it is the forsaking of that spirit of comparison, competition, and contention.scootd28https://www.blogger.com/profile/18049734458416531463noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-8003086605775954472017-09-18T09:48:03.801-07:002017-09-18T09:48:03.801-07:00The author said:
"By its very nature, a Zion ...The author said:<br />"By its very nature, a Zion society can be neither governed nor controlled."<br /><br />I disagree that a Zion society is not composed of governance. Anyone who isn't susceptible to good governance deserves a tyrant over them or to be in chaos. Zion is neither the product of tyranny or chaos but of good and healthy governance that has a proper balance between those governing and those being governed.<br /><br />Since when, and what is the source of, this anti-organization trend in disaffected Mormons?Jason Whartonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14766669304356916594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-62104748985799528122016-10-22T23:28:16.605-07:002016-10-22T23:28:16.605-07:00I believe we only have the teachings of Christ in ...I believe we only have the teachings of Christ in the NT as a basis of what the standards and requirements of creating & living in Zion would be like. <br /><br />I believe firmly that the BoM is fiction, though usually very inspiring fiction. <br /><br />I believe had the BoM prophets been real and true, they would have written about and included exactly 'how' they created such a Zion people, when it's an otherwise seemingly impossible thing to accomplish in any age. I believe knowing exactly how a people created Zion and maintained it and what their standards were, is far more vital than knowing the history and wars of their people. <br /><br />I don't think that just because Jesus would walk among people and teach them would be enough to help everyone be righteous, let alone for 200 years. For Zion wasn't created where Christ was born, raised and taught, though I'm sure a few people repented and changed because of knowing him. But even most of Christ's chosen disciples seemed to not be able to live or accept some of his difficult teachings (that would be required for such a thing as Zion), despite that they learned from him personally for 3 years. <br /><br />I also tend to believe the City of Enoch was probably fiction also, for most of the same reasons. <br /><br />For it seems righteous people (who keep all the commandments of Christ) have always been very rare in any society and it seems 'true prophets' have also been practically unheard of throughout history, except for John the Baptist perhaps and maybe a few of the disciples of Christ during his ministry and probably some obscure people who have <br /><br />For the majority of the people in any society since Adam seem to always support and desire things contrary to God's commandments. To find even 1 family that is righteous has always seemed like a miracle, let alone to have a whole city of people really keep all of Christ's commandments. And thus such would be front page news in any book of real scripture, especially the 'how' they did it part. Lillihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06093952277840534639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-86892111500779112242016-10-21T22:24:06.441-07:002016-10-21T22:24:06.441-07:00We actually do know quite a bit about Zion.
3 Nep...We actually do know quite a bit about Zion.<br /><br /><i>3 Nephi 26<br />17 And it came to pass that the disciples whom Jesus had chosen began from that time forth to baptize and to teach as many as did come unto them; and as many as were baptized in the name of Jesus were filled with the Holy Ghost.<br /><br />18 And many of them saw and heard unspeakable things, which are not lawful to be written.<br /><br />19 And they taught, and did minister one to another; and they had all things common among them, every man dealing justly, one with another.<br /><br />20 And it came to pass that they did do all things even as Jesus had commanded them.<br /><br />21 And they who were baptized in the name of Jesus were called the church of Christ.</i>Jared Liveseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10309044282039536254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-60005551233011662082016-10-16T16:43:08.169-07:002016-10-16T16:43:08.169-07:00fyi I am bummed about the new blog roll... can we ...fyi I am bummed about the new blog roll... can we get the old one back please?Jakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00859096589911437029noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-86418912777407755292016-10-16T13:03:48.532-07:002016-10-16T13:03:48.532-07:00Yeah, I delete them as fast as I find them, but if...Yeah, I delete them as fast as I find them, but if you guys see something I've missed, let me know. It's a wonder I get so much spam, considering how difficult it is to leave a comment.Alan Rock Watermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-18532182030063973552016-10-16T11:57:04.925-07:002016-10-16T11:57:04.925-07:00No I've seen em on here too.No I've seen em on here too.Steak Presedenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11145688976336741401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-11386620447380291502016-10-16T03:45:14.625-07:002016-10-16T03:45:14.625-07:00Is it just on my computer, or has the Pure Mormoni...Is it just on my computer, or has the Pure Mormonism blog been infiltrated by the financial scammers?JankyJoehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15979706823560222674noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-74402840295381180672016-10-07T01:42:40.232-07:002016-10-07T01:42:40.232-07:00Dealing justly one with another. Okay, the aircond...Dealing justly one with another. Okay, the airconditioner in my car broke down and I took it to a garage, which charged me 900 bucks to fix it. The car is 17 years old. Was that just? The kitchen sink plugged up and the plumber charged me 130 bucks to unplug it. Just? My lawyer charges me 20 minutes at 400 bucks per hour to read an email that a 5-year-old could read in 30 seconds. More just, I expect. Ever been to a doctor when you have no health insurance? Boy, you're going to see Just in action, now. Obviously I am so far from Zion that the light from Zion will take about 1 billion years to reach me. I gave a homeless vet 5 bucks because he said he was having a hard time, and I believed him. So, for the confused, I'm agreeing with the author.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-49061374844076879582016-10-06T07:53:48.797-07:002016-10-06T07:53:48.797-07:00Absolutely, Meili! People want to put God in a bo...Absolutely, Meili! People want to put God in a box. We want to put each other in a box. We want to put Zion in a box. Then, when any of these don't fit into our self-defined box, we try to force them into it. Zion will be - but it will be Zion, not your definition or my definition or anyone's definition but God's definition. If we want to play, we need to play by His rules, not by ours, and we need to be humble enough to learn those rules as He would teach them to us - otherwise, we're only going to be in the way.scootd28https://www.blogger.com/profile/18049734458416531463noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-44899487669785116112016-10-06T04:01:52.612-07:002016-10-06T04:01:52.612-07:00It seems like most people who are seeking Zion at ...It seems like most people who are seeking Zion at some point define what they believe are the characteristics of Zion. The problem is, if you haven't actually lived in Zion, you are not equipped to define what Zion looks like and you'd be best to leave it to the few records we have on the subject rather than building your own understanding of what it is. If you try to define Zion in ignorance, you run the risk of creating and inheriting your own personal Zion. That never seems to end well, so I hear.<br /><br />Perhaps it would be best to focus on the people in the scriptures who inherited Zion. What did they do? What did they believe? How did they prepare themselves? In the Book of Mormon, they had the distinction of being "more righteous" than the people who were destroyed but they still earned some serious lamentation from heaven.<br /><br />It's interesting that we have many records of people who hadn't yet obtained Zion and very little of those who did. Is this because we would totally misunderstand what was going on if we had those records? Would we perhaps be so offended by the culture of Zion that we would refuse to seek it?<br /><br />In the absence of any real descriptive definition of Zion by those who attained it, perhaps it's best to admit we don't really know and apply ourselves to the principles laid out in the scriptures: faith, repentance, baptism, becoming like a little child. That is enough to offend the natural man already, no higher ideals needed.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09892415021115022195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-61169766640831927862016-10-02T13:53:41.414-07:002016-10-02T13:53:41.414-07:00AMEN!AMEN!Amyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17111735524580925228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-1876889838706745832016-10-01T09:51:45.031-07:002016-10-01T09:51:45.031-07:00The reason I cite that book, Randy, is because I w...The reason I cite that book, Randy, is because I want to put a plug in for the book. It's a remarkable and very informative piece of work, with loads of helpful research. But your point is well taken. I should have cited the original source, and added "as quoted in."<br /><br />I would do so now, but I have recently moved and don't know where most of my books are, including that one, which does have the citation in the footnotes. (I was able to quote it as-is only because I lifted it from one of my previous blog posts. So I'm quoting myself quoting someone else quoting Joseph Smith. And not for the first time, either.)<br /><br />Glad to see you willing to use your own name when you comment, Randy (although I respect those who for various reasons are not ready to "out" themselves publicly as readers of this blog). As for why the system will not let you use your real name, that's all a mystery to me. I'm still wondering how it is that with all those spam protections, testimonials for witch doctors keep slipping through. It seems I'm deleting one of those every other day.Alan Rock Watermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-56183415857550930582016-10-01T09:36:04.826-07:002016-10-01T09:36:04.826-07:00I don't know why this won't allow to alte...I don't know why this won't allow to alter my identifier. I am Randy Claywell, i say this because, right or wrong and I'm open to be proven wrong, I own my opinions.FRC1952https://www.blogger.com/profile/06905984786886724417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-39860767047222622172016-10-01T09:30:48.062-07:002016-10-01T09:30:48.062-07:00Rock, yours is the second time that Ive read the q...Rock, yours is the second time that Ive read the quote from that book about the High Council. My question is why quote a book that is quoting Joseph Smith instead of quoting Joseph Smith with citations? Shouldn't the actual source be quoted and not a reference to that source?FRC1952https://www.blogger.com/profile/06905984786886724417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-57053940918715082182016-10-01T09:26:25.365-07:002016-10-01T09:26:25.365-07:00Rock, yours is the second time that Ive read the q...Rock, yours is the second time that Ive read the quote from that book about the High Council. My question is why quote a book that is quoting Joseph Smith instead of quoting Joseph Smith with citations? Shouldn't the actual source be quoted and not a reference to that source?FRC1952https://www.blogger.com/profile/06905984786886724417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-50984032825357665482016-10-01T01:53:01.251-07:002016-10-01T01:53:01.251-07:00Yikes! I don't know what happened, but all my ...Yikes! I don't know what happened, but all my lists of posts have disappeared from the right hand side of this blog, including the extensive Blog Roll. It's going to take a LONG time to try and rebuild it!<br /><br />Well, at least the Top Ten are still generated automatically. I sure don't know what happened to everything else.Alan Rock Watermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-34416445202607735432016-09-27T21:48:36.095-07:002016-09-27T21:48:36.095-07:00The problem with throwing all our goods & prop...The problem with throwing all our goods & property into the pot, is that no mortal has ever proved righteous, wise or trustworthy enough of the power to re-distribute the goods righteously. <br /><br />Thus why Christ said don't follow anyone but him, for only he is perfect. <br /><br />For where is or where has there ever been a real person who keeps all the commandments of Christ, so that, as Christ taught, they prove they are a true follower of Him, and even a candidate for Zion?<br /><br />And our 1st responsibility in life is to make sure our own family and extended family is taken care of 1st and foremost, thus we must stay in control of our substance to make sure that happens. Why would we think someone who doesn't love and know our family like we do could do it better than us? <br /><br />Christ commanded us to personally visit & give all our surplus directly to the poor ourselves, he didn't say give our money to someone else so they can visit & take care of the poor for us. <br /><br />For we learn & grow the most when we do such ourselves and get to know the needy and their plight and make sure they are really taken care of, as we take their burdens upon us. <br /> Lillihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06093952277840534639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-45597805337316003502016-09-27T21:10:54.792-07:002016-09-27T21:10:54.792-07:00I remember someone going by the name "smudgep...I remember someone going by the name "smudgepot" (wonder how many people nowadays know what that means, I do only because my grandfather and uncle had fruit trees that sometimes would blossom before the end of the frost season and needed protection from late-spring frosts) who would make comments on a now defunct libertarian website, and sometimes claimed variously to be homeless and to live in a trailer park. <br /><br />He would describe his trailer park ("white trailer trash") neighborhood in terms of all these poor people with all their addictions and problems, but because of their problems they tended to be humble and very neighborly to each other in watching out for each other, and it sounded to me a lot like a true zion-like neighborhood. Maybe it's humble people who don't think they're better than anyone else that can achieve zion, even if they're humble because of their weaknesses of addictions, failed relationships, etc. PNW_DPerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16203324465643216620noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-17145107967277213142016-09-27T18:02:16.690-07:002016-09-27T18:02:16.690-07:00Or maybe it is indeed as simple as Rock suggests:
...Or maybe it is indeed as simple as Rock suggests:<br /><br /><i>Zion consists of neighbors looking out for one another's needs.</i><br /><br />No need to reinvent the wheel.SBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10699554522289335818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-47801786865727783742016-09-27T13:45:27.196-07:002016-09-27T13:45:27.196-07:00I agree Scott. It's all rather moot at this po...I agree Scott. It's all rather moot at this point, with no real-time model to look at. The NT model, BoM model and D&C model all ended up failing. <br /><br />All we have to go on now is to love and help one another the best we can and hopefully learn and grow from that. <br /><br />log may very well be completely right and me wrong. I just haven't been persuaded yet. Sometimes persuasion can take a while. My thoughts on the LDS church took decades to change.<br /><br />As always, his thoughts and others have been planted in my mind to perhaps sprout one day, or not.SBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10699554522289335818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-11572751568267526922016-09-27T13:21:30.430-07:002016-09-27T13:21:30.430-07:00I will think on this for a time.
Initial thought...I will think on this for a time. <br /><br />Initial thoughts:<br />-There are different kinds of love.<br /><br />-My love for my wife is different than my love of others. I will do things with my wife I will not do with anyone else.<br /><br />-Is reciprocity a form of love? "This method, which may be termed “solidarity,”<br />means that an increase in my well-being is achieved in a way which not only does not deprive others of well-being but which yields them, as a by-product of my gain, an increase in their own wellbeing." (Ropke)<br /><br />-Can anything be withheld? idk. Another round of beer to a drunk man? A sharp knife to a toddler? Are you suggesting that love only and always says yes?<br /><br />-And are you suggesting that because something has a price, love is being withheld?<br /><br /><br />SBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10699554522289335818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-90199939894966030472016-09-27T12:25:08.727-07:002016-09-27T12:25:08.727-07:00We must also surrender the tendency to try to fit ...We must also surrender the tendency to try to fit Zion into our own box. The Lord will create Zion, and we have neither the right nor the ability to try to force it to conform to our personal understanding of how it will be. The best we can do is prepare ourselves - our hearts - so that the Lord can use us to bring about HIS Zion - and I suspect it will be very different from what each of us have envisioned.scootd28https://www.blogger.com/profile/18049734458416531463noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-44781858453367321242016-09-27T12:22:30.086-07:002016-09-27T12:22:30.086-07:00Log, SB, the desire to control others is, in my mi...Log, SB, the desire to control others is, in my mind, the essence of babylon, and leaving babylon will largely consist of giving up the desire to control others. Few - very few - have any idea how difficult that is or the degree to which that desire is ingrained in us. The methods we use to protect ourselves against the impact of others' decision are myriad and can be very, very subtle. <br /><br />I currently "own" the RV I live in, the clothes I wear, my guitar, and a collection of records, movies, etc. Others in our community "own" stuff, too. If someone were without clothing and I had some, I would give. I buy socks and thermals and stuff for the group, trusting that at some point it will be needed. Still, we share openly and freely - especially when shopping for groceries and essentials. Nothing has yet been withheld, but neither has there been scarcity.<br /><br />Log's question may not be rhetorical, but the answer will only be discovered in practical application. Speculation is strictly that, and all - ALL - will be stunned by the difficulty of living in a consecrated community. It's not only about property. It's about vision and beliefs, because every individual is affected by the beliefs and desires of others in the community. They may overlap significantly, but the differences can be difficult to overcome. The practical application will be much more difficult than you realize, this I promise.scootd28https://www.blogger.com/profile/18049734458416531463noreply@blogger.com