tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post6793433667776671376..comments2024-03-28T15:23:18.071-07:00Comments on Pure Mormonism: Christ On TrialAlan Rock Watermanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comBlogger35125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-9768773713023965682015-11-23T14:11:54.084-08:002015-11-23T14:11:54.084-08:00Right you are, Mr Metz; finding and weeding out th...Right you are, Mr Metz; finding and weeding out the spam is a constant chore; I often don't see them coming.<br /><br />My piece on Temple Marriage seems to get the most outrageous spam, since whatever algorithm attracts them seem to be older pieces with the word "marriage" in them. Not a week goes by where someone comes on with a long paragraph on how some african witch doctor cast a spell on her philandering husband that got the husband to love her again and come back.<br /><br />These comments were actually pretty entertaining. So if you catch them before I do, you're welcome to enjoy the read.Alan Rock Watermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-10327911291508938632015-11-16T11:24:47.636-08:002015-11-16T11:24:47.636-08:00vabna islam; even muslims seem to visit this blog....vabna islam; even muslims seem to visit this blog. Is there not a moderator operating here? This is coming from behind a cow.R. Metzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15875261161185193692noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-64381872725842628842014-03-27T17:28:48.056-07:002014-03-27T17:28:48.056-07:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.dsdshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17226597215471377202noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-17421063392584882802013-06-03T15:33:49.275-07:002013-06-03T15:33:49.275-07:00That ending with you dressed as goofy and your fut...That ending with you dressed as goofy and your future wife at your side is worthy of a Disney movie in itself. Beautiful stuff Rock. I'm an old romantic I guess. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-37082239607160465982012-06-15T12:30:39.660-07:002012-06-15T12:30:39.660-07:00It's interesting how we vary in our perspectiv...It's interesting how we vary in our perspectives and spiritual experiences on an issue. I, myself, have felt the power of the Holy Ghost testify on many occasions that Brigham Young was speaking by the Holy Ghost (you can't say "by the spirit", you have to say by the Holy Ghost, because there are many spirits, and our job is to learn to discern the spirits and discern truth). He declared many times that he was speaking in the name of the Lord, and not only have I felt that about him as a person, but about the doctrine he taught. I think people give Brigham Young a bad rap. While he did declare that he was not a prophet, I believe he was speaking in the context that he didn't want people comparing him to THE prophet, Joseph Smith. He felt very inadequate in that area. However, when you look at the definition of what a prophet is, you'll see that he was a prophet, as are any of us who speak by the spirit of revelation. There's one bright star in all of this, and that is that some day we'll all know the truth and won't need to "wonder" anymore.Coltharp Golden Years!https://www.blogger.com/profile/04876548230147039818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-16049590445582052082012-06-14T23:39:53.621-07:002012-06-14T23:39:53.621-07:00I don't feel Brigham was an opportunist. I...I don't feel Brigham was an opportunist. I'm inclined to the view that he and the others who embraced polygamy were very sincere in their beliefs, and perhaps even a bit frustrated that Joseph wasn't coming on board. <br /><br />When you think about the enticements of the Cochranite practice, you can see how appealing living as the Patriarchs did would be to those newly exposed to a restoration of all things. It would seem to fit right in. So I don't doubt the sincerity of those who came to embrace the principle.<br /><br />It still remains, however, that Brigham Young was not a prophet, and he specifically claimed that he was not. He was sustained as president of the Twelve, and not as the successor to Joseph Smith as prophet, seer and revelator. But I don't think he was out to trick anyone. It is only our modern distorted view of him that places him on a pedestal as the mouthpiece of God. He was known as The Lion of the Lord for his take-charge ability to lead, but not as The Mouthpiece of the Lord.Alan Rock Watermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-87506303012160904802012-06-14T21:39:00.360-07:002012-06-14T21:39:00.360-07:00Thanks Rock, that's what I thought. I highly ...Thanks Rock, that's what I thought. I highly doubt that the ceremony came from Joseph at all.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-18051532318977957352012-06-14T11:00:39.097-07:002012-06-14T11:00:39.097-07:00Thanks Rock.
You know, the more I think of Brigh...Thanks Rock. <br /><br />You know, the more I think of Brigham, the more I feel the LDS Church is of Utah-nite origin ie not truly of Joseph Smith, and that Brig was nothing less than an opportunist, and in fact perhaps a lot more. I feel he is the one who may hold the 'keys' to all the real truth in this, our almost-two-century decay as a church of truth. A decay that has been continuing since Brigham rounded up the poor early Saints to the Rockies. I said to my wife years ago when we first got married, that no matter what I did, I NEVER got a witness to Brigham being a prophet. Now that I am learning so much to the affirmative, I also said this lately to a couple of friends in the church and was very surprised that they don't seem to be my friends anymore ;) In fact, one of my closest friends since I returned from my mission in '99, has kept serious distance from me since I sent links over to your 'Abandoning polygamy' and Zomarah's 'Thomas S. Monson is a prophet...' (fantastic) articles. You guys are costing me my friends! ;)<br /><br />Anyway, in terms of the endowment- I feel strongly that our present endowment just isn't right. When I went through for the first time in New Zealand's MTC, I shuddered from head to toe and wanted to run out, BAD- in fact, I was weeping in fear and a kind of shame. And I am definitely not known for my fear in situations like these, quite the contrary. But this was downright heavy, and very disturbing. Anyway, that night I had one of the worst, weirdest nightmares (won't talk about it here as I don't want to freak anyone out) which culminated in hearing a loud voice in the middle of the night promising by name to 'get me', which woke me up. Very strangely, I looked down at one of my companions and he was crying, shaking in fear. I asked him if he was awake and he sobbed that he was awoken, 'hearing an evil voice'. This is something I have never been able to forget. Much more followed, but I digress.<br /><br />I truly struggled with the Temple that first time but went back in a week determined to not let it beat me. It was no different, but I persisted. Since then I have been many times and even accepted that perhaps it's a case of me, the wicked, finding truth too hard to bear. So I just gritted my teeth and learned to love it. However, the feelings never left. The last couple of years I have experienced a new awakening, and in turn, in the Temple something completely new- I simply can not stay awake at the temple, no matter what. I sleep almost the whole couple of hours- I mean, gosh, the depth of sleep is unbelievable. My poor Wife is completely embarrassed, and tells me the men are elbowing trying to wake me up, to no avail. So much so that I have stopped going coz it is just a waste of time and just unexplainable- after all as a professional musician/composer, I can often go days without sleep. Hmm, maybe it is the Spirit...and He's trying to teach me another line, another precept...Fusionnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-40762884162936921502012-06-13T13:13:18.777-07:002012-06-13T13:13:18.777-07:00Other than the formal sendoff for missionaries of ...Other than the formal sendoff for missionaries of the day, I don't think so. Brigham Young said Joseph taught it to him, and we seem to have taken his word for it. Seems odd to me, as Brigham was ever away on missions. When exactly did this take place, and did Brigham Young have such a good memory that he could retain every wordAlan Rock Watermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-26122011815793949362012-06-13T13:09:05.282-07:002012-06-13T13:09:05.282-07:00I share your questions about the temple endowment,...I share your questions about the temple endowment, Robert. Scott Anderson has put out a book, "The Development of LDS Temple Worship" that I would very much like to get, but at $32.97, that price is a bit steep for me right now. I wonder if that book would contain some answers.<br /><br />I do own David Buerger's "Mysteries of Godliness" which reveals that the practice of wearing the garment night and day was not always done. On page 146 he shows that the temple garment was originally worn only on special occasions. I assume that meant during priesthood ordinances. It was George A. Smith who suggested it be worn all the times as a protection, but he was no one in authority, just a guy with an idea (This was not George Albert Smith, later president, but a different George A. Smith). <br /><br /> My own opinion is that Smith's suggestion has given the garment superstitious powers of "protection" in the minds of members that it was never meant to obtain, resulting in the ridicule we now endure over our "magic underwear."<br /><br />We only have Brigham's word that he got the endowment word for word directly from Brother Joseph, but I'm a bit skeptical, since after Joseph's death Brigham even changed the architecture of the Nauvoo temple from the design Joseph originally authorized. Add to that the completely new weddings held in secret, and I begin to wonder how much if any of that would have been sanctioned by Joseph Smith. Certainly the Kirtland temple was not put to such uses.<br /><br />I think poor Joseph gets blamed for a lot of stuff he never had anything to do with. It wasn't even his idea to have a masonic lodge in Nauvoo; that was pushed by John C. Bennett, who turned out to be a guy willing to stab his friends for his own ambitions. No question that Brigham took to masonic ju-ju like a duck to water.<br /><br />My understanding of the endowment under Joseph Smith was a simple blessing of sorts extended to those about to embark on missions, and nothing like our ritual today. How about it, reader? Does anyone have any thoughts?Alan Rock Watermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-75168770104544445572012-06-13T12:58:05.297-07:002012-06-13T12:58:05.297-07:00Is there really any proof that Joseph taught an en...Is there really any proof that Joseph taught an endowment ceremony at all?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-19519786873939652462012-06-13T09:38:26.745-07:002012-06-13T09:38:26.745-07:00Hi Rock,
Loved the article, and like Ben above, I...Hi Rock,<br /><br />Loved the article, and like Ben above, I am eagerly anticipating your next effort. In fact, I pretty much check every day in hopes that you have written something new. <br /><br />After reading 'Why Mormon history is not what they say', I am positive that a similar article is required on whether or not the Temple ceremony we have now in the Church (TM) is sincerely the one Joseph taught and administered to the early saints- ie, the ORIGINAL and real Endowment. Since my first visit to the Temple as a missionary (I had just joined the Church a year earlier, but at age 25 was persuaded to go on a mission), I have a suspicion that Brigham Young did not teach the true endowment, but a masonic one instead to appease his fellow masons and his own ego. Is there any evidence that Joseph taught these things we have today, which may be influenced by masonic concepts? Or is it, as I feel, a product of Brigham's uninspired mind? Is the LDS endowment another avenue to establish Brighamite-weird concepts like polygamy and the Adam-God theory, amongst others?<br /><br />Would love to hear from anyone about this, if anyone has info on the ORIGINAL Endowment, of Joseph Smith. And, were garments something Joseph instated or Brigham?<br /><br />Much love<br />RobertFusionnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-50932969138978488342012-05-15T18:09:48.863-07:002012-05-15T18:09:48.863-07:00Soon, Ben. And thanks for your interest. We have h...Soon, Ben. And thanks for your interest. We have had some health problems around here that have kept us both off-kilter for the past little while, but look for a new post within the week.Alan Rock Watermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-41209085904116034682012-05-15T15:53:10.419-07:002012-05-15T15:53:10.419-07:00Alan,
When are going to post a new blog? I have...Alan, <br /><br />When are going to post a new blog? I have been waiting very impatiently to read your next excellent perspective.<br /><br />-Ben HortonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-17973567437298862002012-04-24T22:52:30.772-07:002012-04-24T22:52:30.772-07:00‘Well, how ‘bout that’ stories are interesting ind...‘Well, how ‘bout that’ stories are interesting indeed. Paul Toscano and I served on our missions in Italy at the same time. That's my story story. But I liked yours better about how you later met that same girl who ended up becoming your wife. I suppose truth is sometimes stranger than ficiton. Like the Mormon church’s ‘story’, which to a lot of people becomes so stilted it eventually turns them around to tell their story as: “Well, that ‘bout does it.”Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-43328607992061613562012-04-17T22:11:15.072-07:002012-04-17T22:11:15.072-07:00That's an impressive blog you have there, Jose...That's an impressive blog you have there, Joseph. Consider me a new follower.Alan Rock Watermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-713626279706617682012-04-17T15:31:58.983-07:002012-04-17T15:31:58.983-07:00This was awesome Alan I hope you don't mind me...This was awesome Alan I hope you don't mind me quoting you a lil bit on my blog. I remember sitting in a priesthood meeting on my mission and hearing another missionary recount a story of how before he left on his mission he was in deep financial trouble and how he prayed to the lord and informed the lord that he had payed his tithing, and then proceeded to ask for monetary blessings. His testimony was that he received his blessings, so that meant that god always held up his end of the bargin. Now 8 months later im strongly compelled to ask what bargin? where in the scriptures does the lord say if you give the church ten percent of your earnings, you will be blessed with more money?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-42265467282037528602012-04-13T20:16:36.992-07:002012-04-13T20:16:36.992-07:00I just viewed all 6 parts of the above video. I e...I just viewed all 6 parts of the above video. I enjoyed getting to know Paul a little bit. Although I don't agree with his theology exactly (but again, who really knows Jesus Christ until He reveals himself to us), I thought he made several thought-provoking points which I appreciate and have taken in. WinnieAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-71240419177318671352012-04-13T13:56:57.463-07:002012-04-13T13:56:57.463-07:00Thanks, Rock. I'm one of those Mormons (not a...Thanks, Rock. I'm one of those Mormons (not active because I believe the current church leadership have abondoned ship) who believes in the restoration, Joseph Smith and all that was revealed from the heavens at that time. We part ways where you and John Dehlin believe that Brigham young was a wicked man who promulgated the practice of plural marriage on his own and not because Joseph Smith received the law and lived it under direct command from God. There are other very important doctrinal differences we have, such as restrictions on Priesthood, etc., as well That being said, I believe that in due time we'll all know the truth, whatever it is (because nobody knows all the truth). I'll look into the video you recommended. WinnieAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-35166121171130414072012-04-12T19:03:16.425-07:002012-04-12T19:03:16.425-07:00Winnie,
I linked to the excellent six part interv...Winnie, <br />I linked to the excellent six part interview that John Dehlin conducted with Paul Toscano in the body of the piece, but if you missed it, here it is:<br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKAOj7uqqo4&feature=related<br /><br />This should give you some excellent insight into the author. I can't think of a better place to start, other than his writings.Alan Rock Watermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-85413844719060789572012-04-12T14:05:32.625-07:002012-04-12T14:05:32.625-07:00I'm going to have to look into the book by Tos...I'm going to have to look into the book by Toscano. First, however, I need to have some background on Toscano, because unless I know something about the author and feel comfortable with him as a person, I'm not really interested in reading what he has to say. In other words, the reputation has to precede the trust. I AM positive about this, however. And that is that none of us really knows who Jesus is fully. I have found that the more I try to "be like Him" I feel that I know Him a little better. Maybe that's how we come to know him in the end, anyways. Just as Jesus only did what he saw His Father do, and He is one with the Father, the only way we can really know Him is to do His works. To do what we know He did. Problem is, we need to know what he really did! Much was revealed in the early Mormon church about the nature of God and the truth about Jesus which is kept from the general church membership today. I don't know how anyone in the current LDS church can really know Jesus if you are kept from knowing "what he did"!!! So I am left to study the words of the early prophets, seers and revelators - their journals and discourses - to learn what Jesus did do that was exactly as His Father did. I hope this makes some kind of sense to someone! WinnieAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-54549395907223764962012-04-05T21:34:04.465-07:002012-04-05T21:34:04.465-07:00Thank you for mentioning "Christ on Trial.&qu...Thank you for mentioning "Christ on Trial."<br />I enjoyed it very much.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10650697042429718915noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-27200552296196874232012-04-01T21:46:03.933-07:002012-04-01T21:46:03.933-07:00I loved Toscano's book, "Christ on Trial....I loved Toscano's book, "Christ on Trial." After reading it, I second Rock's recommendation. It's not for everyone, of course; I can think of a few members I know who would take offense at some of the ideas inside. If you're reading this blog, though, you can probably handle it. ;)Jeremiah Stoddardhttp://www.jeremiahstoddard.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-72179978189786415722012-03-31T14:13:50.207-07:002012-03-31T14:13:50.207-07:00Seeing Jesus as unapproachable and distant really ...Seeing Jesus as unapproachable and distant really does get in the way. Thanks for pointing out one of my stumbling blocks. Oh, if I could just go back and be a child again.John and Jenniferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04899746045646203432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-11191924042419019162012-03-31T06:06:18.151-07:002012-03-31T06:06:18.151-07:00Steven, I forgot to mention that no, I don't r...Steven, I forgot to mention that no, I don't remember Andy Palumbo. Heck, I don't remember most of the people in my own department.Alan Rock Watermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.com