tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post5802220431918816837..comments2024-03-28T15:23:18.071-07:00Comments on Pure Mormonism: Appealing My ExcommunicationAlan Rock Watermanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comBlogger129125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-51507835901727090532021-10-25T00:32:31.902-07:002021-10-25T00:32:31.902-07:00interesting blog...
thanks for sharing...
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I can use all the encouragemen...Thank you, Unknown. I can use all the encouragement you can give.Alan Rock Watermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-29659058341578518212017-06-04T17:05:38.179-07:002017-06-04T17:05:38.179-07:00Rock, I find you to be filled with pride and zero ...Rock, I find you to be filled with pride and zero humility. Meet God well brother. Good luck to you in your future. I believe you are going to need it. .. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09260894763523092252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-33531287667968099662015-12-16T10:45:26.405-08:002015-12-16T10:45:26.405-08:00Thank you thank you, I'm speaking to the Bisho...Thank you thank you, I'm speaking to the Bishop on Sunday. I agree completely. I was trying to figure out a way to protect my son but not upset the Bishop or anyone in the ward. I just realized through your response that I would never do that in any other facet of my life, so I am not going to sacrifice my son's emotional and spiritual health to politeness either. I hope if he wants to he will still be able to attend youth activities. We shall see. Thanks again Rock. You are awesomeAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05446915089824415030noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-46172145408094937832015-12-16T01:13:45.271-08:002015-12-16T01:13:45.271-08:00Well said Gregor! Thank you for your post!Well said Gregor! Thank you for your post!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04545727794544987473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-75508484524995807502015-12-15T19:41:58.752-08:002015-12-15T19:41:58.752-08:00I haven't specifically covered the topic of bi...I haven't specifically covered the topic of bishop's interviews with youth, and how innappropriate they often are, but I did touch on the topic of confessing to the bishop. Little did I know growing up that there is absolutely no scriptural authorization or historical precedence for this practice. It was something we were all taught was the proper step to repentance.<br /><br />Here is that blog post: http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2012/08/lake-wobegon-mormons.html<br /><br />In there you'll find a link to an essay by LDS Anarchist showing there is a very narrow area where a bishop is to be consulted when a member sins. Annual "worthiness" interviews are wholly a recent construct, they do little good, but a lot of harm.<br /><br />Sins are to be confessed to the Lord, and to the person who was sinned against. Bringing the bishop into the equation is a very big mistake. The best thing you can do for your son is tell him to NEVER talk to a church leader about anything. If he feels the need to talk something out, he should go to anyone BUT a Church authority. Leaders feel their duty to enact punishment, and that is not the Lord's way.Alan Rock Watermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-72128781079770951982015-12-15T14:14:34.955-08:002015-12-15T14:14:34.955-08:00Thank you so much for your kind and quick response...Thank you so much for your kind and quick response. I agree completely that thinking members who read the Book of Mormon and Bible are considered outlaws. My husband and I take turns guarding the parking lot on Sundays to avoid Relief Society, Sunday School and Priesthood while our kids go to primary. When I do go to class I usually have to bail about 20 minutes in or I will say something I know they don't want to hear. Staying quiet has gotten harder and harder to do over the past couple of years so we decided the next time we have something to say, we will say it. I'm sure it won't go over very well. I know that a response to your appeal will not happen, but magical thinking is hard to break. Oh - to know the Book of Mormon is true, but hate the church is really the worst possible scenario. We can't deny our testimonies and leave, but it is misery, and possibly sinful, to stay.<br /><br />I'm okay with people choosing to live in their ignorance and don't want to tell people they are wrong. But they so often want to judge others that I have a very hard time listening to it. I leave church almost every Sunday feeling dirty for holding my tongue when they are bashing whomever is on the list that day. I would never do that in my daily life, but I am afraid to speak up in church - irony that I can be Christ-like outside of church but being Christ-like inside of church is frowned upon - lol.<br /><br />My husband is Samoan and all of his "adhere to the leadership" viewpoints were taught there. They are very dedicated and don't rock the boat. But, because the LDS church in Samoa does not teach a lot of the things the American version does he didn't run into problems like he has since moving here. For example, there are no long detailed "chewed gum" chastity lessons in church except "obey the law of chastity" and then govern yourself. No Bishop would ever take it upon himself to ask details about anything or call in the youth for interrogations. He didn't even know about polygamy until moving here and most of my in laws who live there still don't know. Tithing is also taught as payment on increase not net or gross income.<br /><br />The Polynesian culture is exceedingly compassionate and it shows in the LDS church there. My frequent visits to Samoa show me what the church should look like. Because we know the church here is not how it is everywhere, we stay. Without that knowledge, I'm sure I would have left already. Being taught to live with no compassion and be so ridiculously judgmental is a much greater sin, and one day the church leadership in Utah and in the wards throughout the United States will be held accountable.<br /><br />One last comment, my son got the Priesthood last Sunday and I am having a very hard time knowing he will progress through the young men's program being indoctrinated that masturbation is wrong and possibly becoming so sexually stifled that it will affect his future relationships and marriage. I have a meeting with the Bishop on Sunday to let him know that he will NOT be allowed to ask my minor son anything about masturbation, etc. He may say "do you obey the law of chastity" starting at age 16 but that is all. There are a few blogs out there that have covered this topic, but I'd love to read something of yours on the topic of Bishop interrogation of youth.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05446915089824415030noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-22891385323068447672015-12-15T11:29:19.941-08:002015-12-15T11:29:19.941-08:00JasonLynn Christine,
Thanks so much for those kind...JasonLynn Christine,<br />Thanks so much for those kind words. I'm always happy to hear about a couple getting closer through following God's word than they were when they followed the traditions of men.<br /><br />I have not yet heard anything about the appeal, and frankly I don't expect to. Sometime in the next few months I intend to write a followup piece going into greater detail about the many transgressions of Church law that occurred in that hearing. But I don't want to appear self-serving, so I'm still waiting for an answer to my appeal.<br /><br />I also have heard absolutely nothing from my stake president, who invited me to meet with him regularly so I could come back to the fold. He told me he would be contacting me for a meeting time, and indicated he would like to meet with me regularly but that never happened. I thought I might initiate these meetings myself, but I was hoping first to get a final answer on the appeal, as that is the proper procedure, in my mind.<br /><br /> If the similar actions of other "heretics" is any indication, they really don't want us back into activity. If I were an inactive member with a daily addiction to coffee, they would send ward members around to fellowship the hell out of me. But guys like us tend to make inflammatory statements like the apostle Peter did when he said "we ought to obey God rather than men." That sort of thing gets Mormons thinking, and there's nothing more dangerous to the modern LDS Church than a believing Mormon who thinks things through.Alan Rock Watermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-80248705124751749742015-12-15T11:13:12.092-08:002015-12-15T11:13:12.092-08:00Ericnsabrina,
I publish everything that is submitt...Ericnsabrina,<br />I publish everything that is submitted to the comments section on this blog except for obvious commercial spam that sometimes gets through. The only exception was one particular reader who would not curb his vulgar language, so after repeated warnings, he was expelled.<br /><br /> If you wrote something previously and didn't see it, I wish you would repost it. Sometimes people think they have submitted something when the program didn't get it for one reason or another. As you can see from reading other comments on this blog, I allow for vigorous disagreement, and don't censor anyone's contrary views.<br /><br />Since you assert this blog is "wrong in so many ways," I would appreciate if you would be specific. If you will point out any instances where I have posted anything doctrinally incorrect or historically in error, I will happily go back in and make the corrections. So I hope you'll do me the favor of pointing those things out for me.<br /><br /><br /> Alan Rock Watermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-34580189295945878632015-12-15T10:06:42.642-08:002015-12-15T10:06:42.642-08:00I wrote on this blog and if you don't agree wi...I wrote on this blog and if you don't agree with Bro. Rock it won't be published. It's a one sided blog. Wrong in so many ways. Good luck to you. <br />Sabrina GaskinsAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04545727794544987473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-56077559209186465892015-12-15T09:08:38.894-08:002015-12-15T09:08:38.894-08:00I know that I am way behind, I have actually never...I know that I am way behind, I have actually never commented on a blog before. But your articles have caused me to stay in the church when I was very close to leaving. You have brought peace to my family and joy to my husband as he has learned more about the gospel and how to live in it joyously and not worry so much. I am a convert from the age of 17 so always felt confused by much of the guidelines and frustrated by the "shut up and do what your told" atmosphere. My husband was raised in the church and believed completely that questioning anything was a sin. He was more dedicated to the church than me (I felt) mentally and very childlike in his unthinking devotion. He had great stress in trying to assimilate at the expense of all else. For example, Polygamy always bothered me but like every other TBM he told me if that if it was asked of him he would say yes. This broke my heart and I realized he had completely turned off all promptings from the spirit, which is not surprising considering what the church teaches. Then I convinced him to read your blog and his is more Christlike, thoughtful, kind, relaxed and our relationship has improved tremendously. Our belief in the gospel and belief in ourselves to guide our own lives and the lives of our children have been restored through your work. Thank you. I have many friends in the church whose marriages suffer because we are taught to be devoted to the church first and our family second. Which is so ironic considering the party line. At any rate, I was heartbroken when you were excommunicated. Can you give us un update on any response you may have received from the Presidency? Uchtdorf is an amazing man and an example of how the church should/could be. I pray they will see the error of this decision.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05446915089824415030noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-14856048297737718672015-09-09T19:51:25.619-07:002015-09-09T19:51:25.619-07:00Rock,
You nailed it when you chose Pres. Uchtdorf....Rock,<br />You nailed it when you chose Pres. Uchtdorf. I know he will shed tears when he reads your defense...IF HE EVER GETS TO READ IT! You know they skim all mail directed to the Brethren, and yours, particularly, is not likely to make it to him. I honestly pray that THE lame creep show that was your excommunication will be reversed, but if that does not happen, know that Pres. Uchtdorf hás not read your appeal. I AM praying for you my brother.Marcelo Theodoro Moreirahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16825688195701964884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-79141324409062116642015-08-28T23:15:13.563-07:002015-08-28T23:15:13.563-07:00Rock,
I don't know about you, but even I lack...Rock,<br /><br />I don't know about you, but even I lack power to heal or work miracles, and I never had it. I don't know what date I should trace this back to - maybe before I was born. So I'm not sure that's a fair thing to say.<br /><br />It is interesting, is it not, how heaven's favor doesn't necessarily follow the imposition of hands by D&C 121. Thus it is that the Church may continue in all her pomp and glory, boasting of her venerable lines of priesthood, and yet can be utterly bereft of both authority and power.<br /><br />After all, if 'worthiness' were irrelevant pertaining to 'authorized' ordinances or ordinations, the Catholics would be the true church today, having a valid line of priesthood stretching back to Peter (or so they claim).<br /><br />There is no way from the outside to know who is a member of the body of Christ. They only are his who hear and obey his voice - and that is as the wind that bloweth. Joseph said all men are liars who say they are of the true Church without the revelations of Jesus and the priesthood of Melchizedek. I take it the revelations of Jesus must be had on an individual, not institutional, level, and so also with the priesthood of Melchizedek, the authority and power of which is to have the heavens opened unto one, etc, as listed in D&C 107:18-19. I wonder if having the heavens open unto one, and to enjoy the communion and presence of God the Father, and Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, is what is meant by "the revelations of Jesus."<br /><br />If so, then let us go onward and inward to the pure Mormonism. After all, after one has entered the gate of repentance and baptism by water, and has received the baptism by fire, this is the call.<br /><br /><i>John 14:21-24<br /> 21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.<br /><br /> 22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?<br /><br /> 23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.<br /><br /> 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me.</i><br /><br />The sayings of Jesus are, of course, those delivered in the Sermon on the Mount.Jared Liveseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10309044282039536254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-33449494972866506982015-08-28T14:53:52.686-07:002015-08-28T14:53:52.686-07:00http://mormonscomplaining.blogspot.com/http://mormonscomplaining.blogspot.com/Mormons Complainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10884341711149876254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-11510537269471239832015-08-28T13:22:58.745-07:002015-08-28T13:22:58.745-07:00An organization that uses coercive methods to cont...An organization that uses coercive methods to control behaavior is not Christ centered. <br /><br />Clearly an organization can not tolerate abuse of any kind among members. Membership has to be protected from known predators. But short of that, withdrawing love and communion and fellowship and friendship is perhaps the most painful punishment humans can inflict upon each other. That's nothing more than conditional love (which is another name for conditional hatred) and that's not what Christ taught. Its also arbitrary considering all are sinners and all sin separates us from God. If you believe in big and little sins, enjoy self justification. We don't know and can never know what causes some to make the decisions they make. Even in the case of "Mr Adultery", can one presume to understand the myriad life events and pain that led to that choice? I think not. I believe if we were forced to walk in another's shoes, we might find ourselves making the exact same choices (sins), they did. That's why we are not to judge each other. Only Christ can know our motives and hearts.<br /><br />Force is not consistent with Christ's gospel. Using punishment, shaming, withhoding fellowship and love, in order to modify behavior is the exact opposite of love and leads members to freely judge, find fault, compare sins and to hide sin for fear of retribution. Force is never love. Fear is not love. Ends never justify the means. The Church lost its way the moment Emma was threatened with destruction, as well as all of the other early excommunications. <br /><br />I understand how it got to this point because I think the Brethren really don't know what to do at this juncture. They are afraid of mass exodus. For an organization to claim they follow Christ and then act completely at odds with Christ's teachings, doesn't pass muster to me. Doctrine is not the main issue for the Church. People have been shown to believe in many things despite overwhelming evidence against the belief. It's more about how the Church treats it's members and the example they set. I may be an idealist but so is Christ. The Church is pragmatic and justifies behavior on conflicting doctrinal points. Using punishment, fear and reward to keep people marching lock step in a straight line is not agency. That is the other guy's plan. As if God wants a bunch of clones, or "yes" men and women populating his world for eternity. Have fun with that. It isn't the Father in Heaven I believe in. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16423919174137826379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-53959646126747024702015-08-28T12:49:30.436-07:002015-08-28T12:49:30.436-07:00So it is, Log. Not only is any authority null and ...So it is, Log. Not only is any authority null and void, but any power those men once had will now be inoperable. I wonder if any of them wonder why it is that when they give their sick children a healing blessing, nothing happens.<br /><br />Will they connect the dots and trace the loss of priesthood power to their own transgression committed on the night of June 3rd, 2015?<br /><br />I doubt they will.Alan Rock Watermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-66698083893577999712015-08-28T11:15:23.218-07:002015-08-28T11:15:23.218-07:00Per doctrine and covenants section 121, it's a...Per doctrine and covenants section 121, it's automatic.Jared Liveseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10309044282039536254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-9937597273209073962015-08-28T07:34:34.921-07:002015-08-28T07:34:34.921-07:00(Continued)
At my hearing, the charge laid agains...(Continued)<br /><br />At my hearing, the charge laid against me was that I was teaching people not to go to the temple. The charge was demonstrably false. By which I mean it could be demonstrated to be false by simply referring to my blog, where not only can such a teaching not be found, but it can easily be demonstrated that I taught the opposite.<br /><br />But what if I had? What if in my blog I openly taught that people in the church shouldn't go to the temple? <br /><br />So what? Who the hell am I? Do I have a special calling that would require me not to voice that opinion? Are we honestly to believe that anyone with a testimony of the temple would be swayed by some dumbass with a blog telling them they're making a big mistake? Why would anyone listen to me? <br /><br />If I, as a regular rank and file member of the church happened to go around preaching that people shouldn't go to the temple, not only would I be largely ignored, but I would not have transgressed any laws of the church. There is no scriptural prohibition against expressing one's opinion on such matters. If there is no law to transgress, there has been no transgression of the law.<br /><br />But what if I had been called to teach the temple preparation class in church, and it's discovered that in my private life, on my blog, I have been teaching people not to go to the temple?<br /><br />Well then I would have been overtaken in a fault. Why? Because I had accepted a calling to help prepare people to go to the temple, but at the same time I'm online trying to talk them out of it. I had an OBLIGATION to help get people to the temple, and I had failed in that obligation. That is what it means to be overtaken in a fault. <br /><br />So what should happen to me? Should I be excommunicated from the church? Well no. That's a bit extreme. I have not transgressed any law, so there is no apostasy to point to.<br /><br />The scriptures direct that I be taken aside privately and corrected. If I persist, I get released from the calling. I'm no longer the Temple Prep Teacher. That's my big punishment.<br /><br />If I've actually done some damage by persuading the students in my class in teaching them they shouldn't go to the temple, then the bishop can take them aside individually and point out where their teacher was out of line. He might even find it necessary to go to the pulpit and rebuke me openly per section 42, verse 91. I would be ashamed, as the scripture indicates, but I would deserve it, wouldn't I? I had accepted an obligation to teach one thing, and I had taught the opposite. I SHOULD be be ashamed.<br /><br />Are you beginning to see how this extreme action of excommunication is being wildly abused? If I were overtaken in a fault, I should be dealt with AS THE SCRIPTURES DIRECT, and the scriptures direct that first it must be determined that I had a certain obligation, and when I failed in that obligation, the scriptures direct I be released from that obligation. But above all, it must first be proven that I HAD taught something antithetical to what I was supposed to.<br /><br />In my case, I had transgressed no law, and I was not overtaken in a fault. Because 1. I had no obligation to teach a certain thing, and 2. I did not teach what they claimed I had been teaching.<br /><br />There was a transgression of the law taking place during my disciplinary hearing. The stake president repeatedly lied about me. Because bearing false witness is a sin, he transgressed the law. And because he had an obligation by dint of his sacred calling to act in a just and true manner, his lies are evidence that he has been overtaken in a fault.<br /><br />I wonder how long I'll have to wait before my stake president is dealt with as the scriptures direct?Alan Rock Watermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-7459364941149438862015-08-28T07:33:54.911-07:002015-08-28T07:33:54.911-07:00(Continued)
Granted, a case like that above is not...(Continued)<br />Granted, a case like that above is not likely, for the simple reason that a member who really believes adultery is fine and dandy is not likely to remain in the church of his own accord. He's likely to leave on his own.<br /><br />But there is still one element of section 20, verse 80 that has not been addressed, that of being "overtaken in a fault."<br /><br />In order to be overtaken in a fault, one must have an obligation to do a certain thing, and then failed to do it. Suppose someone accepts a calling to teach Sunday School, and then never shows up to teach. How do the scriptures direct he be dealt with? Excommunication? <br /><br />No, the bishop or the Sunday School president would take him aside and ask him what the deal is. Most likely he would be released from his calling as teacher, and that would be that. He was overtaken in a fault, and released for failure to perform as agreed.<br /><br />If a bishop openly taught that adultery was not a sin, he would be overtaken in a fault, because he has a special calling to teach the commandments. How do the scriptures direct he be dealt with if he fails in his obligation? Again, section 42 requires he be taken aside, presumably by the stake president, who asks him, "what the hell?" and then if necessary that bishop is released. Also rebuked publicly "that he might be ashamed" pursuant to verse 91 if necessary, for using his position of authority to teach that sin is okay.<br /><br />(Continued)Alan Rock Watermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-76397534502318385582015-08-28T06:51:39.415-07:002015-08-28T06:51:39.415-07:00Miguel,
Addressing your question to me on the 27t...Miguel, <br />Addressing your question to me on the 27th, first, as usual, Log hits it on the head when he reminds us that the leader's definition of apostasy is far removed from what the Lord would call it. Their infallibility is the fixed point against which all others are judged.<br /><br />But in answer to your question, D&C 20:80 HAS TO BE the starting point in deciding whether a person is in apostasy. In fact, that scripture is the alpha and omega, the crux of the matter. Everything hinges on that one short verse. Here's how it reads:<br /><br />"Any member of the church of Christ transgressing, or being overtaken in a fault, shall be dealt with as the scriptures direct."<br /><br />Here are the elements to consider:<br />1. Is the person a member of the church?<br />2. Did he transgress a church law? If so, which law?<br />3. If there is no trangression of a specific law, has he been overtaken in a fault? <br /><br />Let's take your first example, the guy who commits adultery and teaches others that it's okay. Well, he committed adultery, so that's a transgression. There is specific commandments in scripture prohibiting the act. It's a sin to commit adultery, therefore he has transgressed. If he continues unrepentant, the church (meaning the community) has the right to withdraw the hand of fellowship in order to maintain the purity of the community. Can't have people going around breaking a clear commandment, maintaining there is nothing wrong with his doing so, and still claim membership in the church. His presence taints the community. The SCRIPTURES DIRECT the manner in which he is to be dealt. (I won't go into the particular scriptures here.)<br /><br />Let's say he has NOT committed adultery, but is teaching that adultery is okay. Well, he has not transgressed, so he can SAY anything the hell he wants. Is anyone likely to believe him, or be convinced by his "teachings"? Not likely. Everyone knows adultery is wrong. Everyone can readily see the man is a fool. There's not much chance anyone is going to be swayed by his theories.<br /><br />Is he an embarrassment to the congregation? Maybe, in as much as we are embarrassed to have an imbecile among us. But look at the case of Peletiah Brown. Joseph Smith apparently thought Brown's interpretation of the Beast in Revelation was laughable. But grounds for excommunication? Puh-leeze. <br /><br />As long as Mister Adultery Should Not Be A Sin doesn't commit the sin, he has not trangressed any law; he's just blowing hot air. Still, can something be done to shut him up? Well, the SCRIPTURES DIRECT this person be taken aside and corrected privately D&C 42:88). If he persists, well, the bishop has the bully pulpit. He has every right and obligation to get up on the stand and rebuke Mister Adultery's false teachings and to embarrass him publicly.<br /><br />If the guy still won't back down AND OTHER MEMBERS COMPLAIN THAT HE SHOULD NOT REMAIN IN THEIR MIDST then you have a couple of accusers, and an action can move forward to withdraw the hand of fellowship from him. It isn't enough that the bishop doesn't like what the guy is saying. The bishop can embarrass him from the stand. He has a sword to wield. But if action is to be taken to get rid of this embarrassing fool, witnesses must come forward and accuse him.<br /><br />What would be the appropriate action? Disfellowship the guy. That's because members of the congregation (not the leadership) get to decide they want to withdraw the hand of fellowship from him until he comes to his senses. Why? Because it would be untoward to have someone constantly advocating for adultery and still be seen by outsiders as a member of the church (i.e. community)in good standing.<br /><br />(Continued)<br /><br />Alan Rock Watermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-77855478517165959392015-08-28T06:44:13.383-07:002015-08-28T06:44:13.383-07:00Greg and Erichard, checked out your links re: Js d...Greg and Erichard, checked out your links re: Js didn't practice polygamy. Brigham Young "hijacked" the church. I've seen this stuff before and my conclusion is thy JS did enter into polygamy or at least adultery. Cowerdry, Fanny exposure for example, predates BY. William Law wasn't under BY's control at all, was a prophet, seer and revalator according to JS and was excommunicated by JS when he claims JS made indecent proposals of polyandry. <br /><br />So, in the end I think JS was a polygamist. The proposition. The BY lead the church astray is almost certian (blacks, Adam God etc) but that he started polygamy don't have traction with me. Way more evidence than I will type that JS invoked polygamy, practiced it and polyandry. <br /><br />Sad part is probably the scripture, such as evidenced by D&C 132 , has many substantial errors AND the prophets were not speaking for God. <br /><br />A one on one relationship with our Lord is the best way to find the truth... Too many times church leaders (LDS and others) lead us away from the truth. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15987534668667652384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-62113563997703465892015-08-27T12:22:43.608-07:002015-08-27T12:22:43.608-07:00Do I really need to rehearse the history of the te...Do I really need to rehearse the history of the teaching that "the president cannot lead the Church astray"?<br /><br />Which morphed into "the Council of the First Presidency cannot lead the Church astray" when it was discovered - or held - that certain of the presidents in fact taught what are now accepted to be falsehoods?<br /><br />Which has morphed into "the Council of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles cannot lead the Church astray" because the aforementioned Council of the First Presidency echoed some of the previous (and now accepted to be) falsehoods taught by the president(s)?<br /><br />So we went from 1, to 3, to 15 men being required to agree in order to imbue their words with the guarantee of infallibility - the next logical step is to start enfolding the Quorum of the Presidency of the Seventies, maybe even all the Quorums of the Seventies themselves, just to make extra specially sure the Church isn't being led astray, whenever it is discovered that the 15 have agreed upon and republished some claim or other that turns out to be socially or politically unpalatable.<br /><br />Or they could just shut up. But what's the point of being infallible if you can't tell others what to do or think?<br /><br />But what, one wonders, does it mean to lead astray if it doesn't mean to teach falsehoods?<br /><br />And if apostasy, in its classical definition (rather than its newfangled LDS disciplinary definition), means a falling away, what else would suffice as prima facie evidence of apostasy from God - who cannot lie - other than teaching untruths?<br /><br />The implicit LDS definition of apostasy uses the leadership as the standard of judgement - their infallibility is the fixed point against which all others are judged. But that's not necessarily God's definition... unless the leadership is, indeed, infallible in all their judgements.<br /><br />Are they?Jared Liveseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10309044282039536254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-76455761880950668232015-08-27T12:09:56.145-07:002015-08-27T12:09:56.145-07:00Miguel,
The leadership of the Church claims that ...Miguel,<br /><br /><a href="https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2014/10/sustaining-the-prophets?lang=eng#watch=video" rel="nofollow">The leadership of the Church claims that whenever the 15 agree, that is revelation.</a><br /><br />Can God lie? Can revelation from God fail to be truth? Can the united 15, whose agreement tautologically means they are speaking with the voice of God, fail to be right? Isn't claiming to always be right the same as claiming to be infallible?<br /><br />And if this teaching is false? Do they have authority and power from heaven if they are teaching falsehoods? Who, again, is the father of lies?Jared Liveseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10309044282039536254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-56339157245419663432015-08-27T11:58:19.758-07:002015-08-27T11:58:19.758-07:00In any case, I meant what apostasy actually is, no...In any case, I meant what apostasy actually is, not what it has been turned into.<br /><br />Anyway, Rock.<br /><br />You said something about the leaders from the top down never being corrected but I think many people can think of examples where bishops were corrected by stake presidents. As an example that I came across, I heard from a lady in Utah that her bishop refused to give her welfare due to her being inactive but then the stake president overturned that decision. I've also heard of the parents of a sister missionary raising concerns about what her mission president said to her and he getting released. Basically, she related to him a dream about being his wife and then he told her that polygamy is supposed to be coming back, so... Yeah, it was a dodgy thing to say. The thing is, these are members complaining. Even the concerns of inactive ones are dealt with seriously sometimes. But an individual excommunicated for apostasy complaining that the proper procedures weren't taken? Well, I hope they do take your case seriously!Steak Presedenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11145688976336741401noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-67257494209371797012015-08-27T11:46:00.378-07:002015-08-27T11:46:00.378-07:00Log,
the leadership would indeed need to have act...Log,<br /><br />the leadership would indeed need to have actual authority and power from heaven but, as only Jesus was infallible, they would not be required to be infallible. I believe they need to be righteous, however, and follow the Spirit in their judgement. But isn't that what the church teaches? The idea of infallibility is that people presume that the leaders are following the Spirit in all their decisions. Rock reported a lack of such Spirit hanging around the men who accused and tried him.Steak Presedenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11145688976336741401noreply@blogger.com