tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post5105215887477239128..comments2024-03-13T12:52:19.391-07:00Comments on Pure Mormonism: Best Evidence For The Book of MormonAlan Rock Watermanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comBlogger271125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-59070588447908100172014-01-26T07:48:29.233-08:002014-01-26T07:48:29.233-08:00Arch, you're painting Ron Meldrum as a lone vo...Arch, you're painting Ron Meldrum as a lone voice agaiinst the establishment, when in reality there are -and have been from the earliest days of the church- others in various scientific fields who agree with the Heartland model.<br><br>Although I respect Sorenson's work, there are many others with credentials who disagree with him and side with the Heartland model. Althought Ron Meldrum has popularized the Heartland view and been instrumental in bringing thie alternative view to the attention of many rank and file members, he is hardly the originator of the position. <br><br>Since there are intelligent advocates on either side of this debate, I prefer to watch the debate unfold rather than to take sides this early in. But in my opinion, the Heartland model has much more going for it than the Meso-American view so far, not the least of which is that Joseph Smith said these things took place here. If one is to accept the historicity of the Book of Mormon (as I do), one can't ignore the teachings of the prophet in that area.<br><br>The non-Mormon participants in the video on early American civilizations were opposed to their research being used to validate a particular religious viewpoint. That is what they objected to. They did not recant any of their findings. They simply objected to anyone using their findings to validate a religion. <br><br>That is perfectly fine with me. They can object all they want. After all, they were presenting their findings from a scientific standpoint and had not intended for those views to bolster anyone's religious faith. <br><br>But others are free to pick up on someone else's scientific findings as evidence to bolster their own views about a topic, religious or otherwise. Whether or not those views are substantiated by the evidence is a matter for each individual to decide after all the evidence has been presented.<br><br>Like I say, I don't think we have everything laid out before us yet, but I do feel that what we know so far regarding ancient civilizations in the Northern Hemisphere is fascinating and certainly worth a look.<br>Alan Rock Watermanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-86546654422259615532014-01-25T10:03:24.383-08:002014-01-25T10:03:24.383-08:00For the record, I'm anonymous here.For the record, I'm anonymous here.Arch Stantonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15037698718046468011noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-42427007474702156432014-01-23T06:55:09.085-08:002014-01-23T06:55:09.085-08:00Respectfully to Waterman, you don't get it. M...Respectfully to Waterman, you don't get it. Meldrum is not a scientist, an archaeologist, or an anthropologist - he's a pseudoscientist at best. The guy has a bachelor's degree in Business Administration from Utah State. Don't get me wrong, I'm not one to appeal to authority, people don't need to go to school to learn things. But education has tremendous value, especially in the sciences, teaching the scientific method and holding people to proper standards, establishing best practices and helping people to understand their limitations. <br><br>Meldrum's work has been universally panned. The guy is a quack. He misunderstands and misrepresents research that he cites in his books and videos. In his Lost Civilizations video for example he presents several researchers. Well, basically every single one of them got together afterwards to make a rebuttal video against Meldrum because he misrepresented their work and by presenting it out of context, giving it a very different meaning than it actually had.<br><br>TBM LDS scholars who have Masters and PhDs and are professional scientists, archaeologists, anthropologists, historians, etc., do not agree with Meldrum, and he responds do them with personal attacks and appeals to personal revelation. He doesn't respond with a legitimate academic or scholarly argument based on the evidence, instead he gets emotional and claims he's right simply because God told him so. He further attacks BYU and other universities for their science curriculum and is known for engaging in paranoia and conspiracy theories. Meldrum also falsely claims that Joseph Smith received revelation on the location of BOM geography. And if all this isn't bad enough, the guy is also known for using forged documents.<br><br>His heartland model does not fit the geography described in the text of the BOM. We could go down a list of problems. He for example claims evidence showing vast cities with millions, but that's not actually what the evidence shows. The time period is also wrong, BOM describes such cities as ancient as 1500BC. Not a single such city has been documented in north america for that period. Where is the agricultural evidence? Doesn't exist.<br><br>Here's a list by Sorenson: <br><br>http://www.ancientamerica.org/library/media/HTML/enap8lyt/A%20Whole%20Bunch%20of%20Reasons%20Why%20Book%20of%20Mormon%20Geography.htm?n=0<br><br>His heartland model completely misrepresents DNA science, misrepresenting sources and relying on very old sources which have since been replaced. Rock, I appreciate that you acknowledge not knowing anything about DNA. I do. It's not my primary field, but I'm close enough to fully understand it. There is no DNA evidence for ancient Americans in the north, central, or south america, having ties to the middle east. None whatsoever. That said though, the DNA evidence also doesn't prove that there isn't a link between the America's and the Middle East. It is not evidence against the BOM in any way, but it darn sure isn't evidence for it either.<br><br>If you want a truly scholarly work that shows real evidence resembling BOM civilization and geography, read Mormon's Codex by Sorenson. Just the bibliography for this book is around 120 pages long. It's a massive textbook. There are several lifetimes worth of research put into this book. And I don't know of a single scholar cited by Sorenson coming out of the woodwork claiming he misrepresents their research.<br><br>http://deseretbook.com/Mormons-Codex-John-L-Sorenson/i/5102381<br><br>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-17743032294423395102014-01-12T20:08:37.166-08:002014-01-12T20:08:37.166-08:00I ask you-were not many of the Mound Builders in a...I ask you-were not many of the Mound Builders in ancient America found to be GIANTS? Were not the GIANTS in the bible known as the Nephilim? (Nephi)lim? Were not the Nephilim the offspring of the Sons of God (fallen angels)who lusted after mortal women and bore offspring through them? The Book of Mormon is one of two things-a damaging hoax, or an outright demonic deception. You Mormons need to pull your head out of Book of Mormon for a bit and read your bibles. Then go back and read your Book of Mormon with bible goggles. Not the other way around.James McKnighthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13282503194371297863noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-88370658702914857112014-01-06T07:13:16.678-08:002014-01-06T07:13:16.678-08:00No Fox is the only channel with some truth. All th...No Fox is the only channel with some truth. All those liberal rags are liars and sheep Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-74040045649021786032014-01-01T12:21:58.832-08:002014-01-01T12:21:58.832-08:00I am reading...and I am so sad seeing how you guys...I am reading...and I am so sad seeing how you guys treat each other.CARMENhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05922183351957136153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-53776264836588252902014-01-01T12:11:07.480-08:002014-01-01T12:11:07.480-08:00Love it. Thanx.Love it. Thanx.CARMENhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05922183351957136153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-86642356508508880272013-11-16T20:04:08.522-08:002013-11-16T20:04:08.522-08:00"You may know, but many of those who took par..."You may know, but many of those who took part in polygamy had visitations from angels, witnesses of the Spirit, and answers to their prayers about polygamy."<br><br>Haha, so maybe murderers should say they prayed about it and god said it was ok. Oh wait, many have.<br><br>Praying about something and getting an 'answers' doesnt mean jack shit.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-27706187690693262412013-09-08T10:24:16.707-07:002013-09-08T10:24:16.707-07:00Well said Willet.Well said Willet.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-71641731485390083022013-09-08T07:36:19.627-07:002013-09-08T07:36:19.627-07:00I admit I have not researched this subject nearly ...I admit I have not researched this subject nearly as much as I would like to. But I just thought I should point out that there is a difference between the DOCTRINE of the church, and the church as an organization. From a doctrinal point of view, it does not matter where the events of the Book of Mormon took place. What is important is its message of Christ and the truths it contains. I see no reason why anyone should become offended and/or defensive because someone suggests that it may have taken place somewhere other than where we thought. Changing its location does not change its doctrine. <br>Now concerning why the church leadership hasn't taken a more active role in determining the Book of Mormon location and why they keep going back to the "we just don't know" response. It's for the same reason as above, it's not doctrinal; and ultimately, doesn't matter. If the prophet were to "just ask God" where it all took place, I doubt he would get an answer. Looking at the records we have (that are reliable) of God interacting with people on Earth, it's very rare that he's told us anything more than what we need to know. Although it would be interesting and nice to know for certain where the Lehites landed and where exactly was the land Desolation, we don't really need the information to receive exaltation. I'm not saying we shouldn't keep trying to figure it all out, I do consider it an extremely worthwhile pursuit. I just wish people wouldn't equate that pursuit with a pursuit for further doctrine. Figuring out where everything happened would be great, but I'm not basing my testimony on it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-80532304168099287132013-09-01T09:10:52.752-07:002013-09-01T09:10:52.752-07:00If these "evidence" are the only things ...If these "evidence" are the only things that keeps for not going atheist, I think that you don't know Jesus. Your testimony is based on a church being true instead of focusing on the savior of human kind. Well if that is the case as you admitted, I think you are already an atheist. If these are the "evidence" for the book of mormon, believe me you are in big trouble. All I can read here is a bunch of speculations and nothing else. The Dna video is talking about people that emigrated 40.000 years ago. Nothing to do with the story of the book of mormon. As far as north America being the location of the book, you are just pushing the problem somewhere else and not facing reality. <br>The problem is, not only is there no mention of mounds in the Book of Mormon, there is no history among the Jews in Jerusalem or anywhere round about that they ever built or knew of such mounds. The main purpose stated by archaeologists is that these mounds were for religious and ceremonial burial, as well as elite residential purposes. It is claimed these mounds, included the Pre-Columbian cultures dating from roughly 3400 B.C. to the 16th century A.D. and living in regions of the Great Lakes, the Ohio River valley, and the Mississippi River valley and its tributaries. Nomadic indigenous peoples started building earthwork mounds in North America nearly 1000 years before the pyramids were constructed in Egypt.<br>The Nephites did not arrive in the western hemisphere until about 587 B.C. and died out in 385 A.D. Not even the Jaredites had arrived here until around 2000 B.C.<br>Some effigy mounds were constructed in the shapes or outlines of culturally significant animals. The most famous effigy mound, Serpent Mound in southern Ohio. Such effigy mounds were primarily built 350 to 1300 A.D., again, after the Nephite period and long after the Jaredite period.<br>Mounds have been found all over Europe, and many places around the world, including China. There have been pyramids found in Egypt, there is Stonehenge in England, the Medicine Wheel in Wyoming, and the mysterious Nazca Lines in Peru. None of this has anything to do with the Nephites, ancient Jews or Hebrew cultures.<br>My advise to you is, study the Bible which as more than 250.000 archeological proves, and get a testimony of Jesus of the Bible.smormonhttp://smormon.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-6370386534282690112013-08-23T15:48:35.143-07:002013-08-23T15:48:35.143-07:00Ok, but the Bible says in Galatians 1:6-10 warns u...Ok, but the Bible says in Galatians 1:6-10 warns us of other gospels aside from the old and new testament, and not only that Joseph Smith said, " 3 John 14:23—The appearing of the Father and the Son, in that verse, is a personal bappearance; and the idea that the Father and the Son dwell in a man’s heart is an old sectarian notion, and is false." Now the very fact that Joseph Smith is teaching against Scripture here puts him in violation of Galatians. Not only that, but this verse(John 14:23) and the context around it speaks of the Holy Spirit indwelling within believers once they are saved. If he doesn't believe the Father and Son can dwell within you then nor does he believe the Holy Spirit can dwell within you seeing as how they are One entity. Unless Joseph Smith believes they are three separate Gods, and if that is the case then again he is in violation of Galatians 1:6-10.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-2063940521375465952013-08-08T21:02:38.174-07:002013-08-08T21:02:38.174-07:00thank you for looking deeper into these claims.thank you for looking deeper into these claims.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-33362313146970108322013-07-07T12:33:02.381-07:002013-07-07T12:33:02.381-07:00Extremely convincing overview of Malay theory for ...Extremely convincing overview of Malay theory for Book of Mormon lands: http://www.scribd.com/doc/55862482/A-More-Promising-Land-of-PromiseAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-49234077578516919252013-07-06T10:56:46.746-07:002013-07-06T10:56:46.746-07:00I've been fascinated by the complex and intric...I've been fascinated by the complex and intricate geographical references in the Book of Mormon and their internal consistency. To me, the consistency of the geographical picture given the complexity and volume of the narrative and geographical references is one price of evidence in itself that the account is based on a real geography, somewhere. (It would be so easy to have geographical and chronological continuity errors trying to make up such a complex story involving multiple generations and all of their various travels without making a plausible (even if fictional) map to go along with it first.)<br><br>I did my own limited analysis of the geography references. There are literally several hundreds of such references. I reasoned out what might be some plausible areas (i.e, what place likely could be reached by plausible ocean travel from the Middle East; it seems that it must be a peninsula with southern end or an isthmus with some southern landform barrier, because the Nephites never really go southward from their original landing spot, and they refer to a lot of bodies of water and narrow strips of land; etc. etc. etc.). <br><br>I spent a considerable amount of time analyzing the Central American areas and related analyses by several authors, because of what I now recognize as an American continents bias in my search. I was not really satisfied with those areas given the facts I compiled from the BOM and the analyses by others. <br><br>I eventually went back to the world map and opened my mind to any possibility, American continent or otherwise. I ended up with the Malay peninsula as a possible candidate. A lot of what I could assess on a first pass seemed to fit the required geography and the ocean travel was far more reasonable. I searched around for anyone who might have already researched this possibility. I found the following excellent detailed analysis by Ralph Olsen:<br><br>http://www.scribd.com/doc/20922656/The-Malay-Peninsula-as-the-Setting-for-the-Book-of-Mormon-by-Ralph-A-Olsen<br><br>It's fascinating and outlines a very plausible Malay scenario. I encourage everyone to look into this possibility if you have not already.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-49136453789377861412013-06-26T11:19:26.749-07:002013-06-26T11:19:26.749-07:00This discussion is mind numbing, there is no arche...This discussion is mind numbing, there is no archeology to support the animals or crops discussed in the BOM. THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OF A GREAT BATTLE IN NY where hundreds of thousands died and lay unburried. As a native American I am sickened that Smith used my people to to pull off his scam. I have seen some of your temple rituals and amconvinced they were taken by Smith from his time as a Mason. I pray for your souls out of Christs love for us all, you who are LDS ARE ALL DECEIVED !Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-18388221983070332962013-06-18T21:01:06.881-07:002013-06-18T21:01:06.881-07:00The evidence around Cumorah seems to be the heavy ...The evidence around Cumorah seems to be the heavy lime deposits which are indicative of bones turned to dust. Bones that are buried tend to remain somewhat intact. Bones left out in the open and exposed to the elements disintegrate completely.<br><br>Arrowheads and spear heads were plentiful in America. So plentiful that farmers had to cart them off in wheelbarrows before they could begin to plow.Alan Rock Watermanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-82196555636698580222013-06-18T18:45:11.405-07:002013-06-18T18:45:11.405-07:00Another food for thought, the links you provide ar...Another food for thought, the links you provide are written from the very people who wayne may and meldrum mention as being biased and who automatically dismiss EVIDENCE in order to support their preconceived beliefs / dogmas about native americans before columbus. If you're going to make a claim, make sure you use sources that are properly researched.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-22247450830914838132013-06-18T18:37:44.985-07:002013-06-18T18:37:44.985-07:00What evidence are you looking for? And what sourc...What evidence are you looking for? And what sources are you using to derive a conclusion that there is no evidence? Steel rusts, bones crumble if nothing is buried etc. etc.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-54444716947219224202013-06-17T00:54:19.724-07:002013-06-17T00:54:19.724-07:00I've seen Meldrum's film. The scientist w...I've seen Meldrum's film. The scientist was talking about haplogroup X which is found in middle eastern populations. The problem is that most scientists think haplogroup X came over at the same time as the 4 main other haplogroups found in native American populations. Meldrum says that the scientists' dating method is off and using his alternate dating method he discovered the American DNA separated from the middle eastern group about 600 BC. No explanation was given for how his alternate dating method works and why it is superior to the method accepted by all other scientists in the field.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-27552180571216091822013-05-23T19:55:14.105-07:002013-05-23T19:55:14.105-07:00Only the physical evidence can be claimed to be de...Only the physical evidence can be claimed to be debunked. It is the witness of the Holy Ghost that any and all of man's teaching cannot debunk. That is why members who have received a witness from the Holy Ghost may show little regard to other evidence as unnecessary. Having said that, I love Rod's work and the Heartland Model is showing truckloads of physical evidence for the BOM. Rod is a saint, so is Wayne May and Bruce Porter.J Beehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18280087522516506616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-41621271792984131202013-04-12T23:26:01.629-07:002013-04-12T23:26:01.629-07:00Haha. Controversy does know how to find you Anthon...Haha. Controversy does know how to find you Anthony. :) I suppose I shouldn't be surprised to find you agreeing with the more controversial and yet more reasonable side. LOL! I haven't been in the church for as long as some of you so I wasn't even aware of the level of commitment many have put into the meso-America claim. I thought it was much more speculative then that. Sometimes I think its easier to find up from down when you haven't been immersed in a culture for too long. It's unfortunate when people become so entrenched in their dogmas that they are not willing to look at new evidence. Especially when Joseph Smith was pretty clear about things. As the dispensation head and as a man who truly spoke with God face to face I would put more stock into his claims and take them at face value. Mental gymnastics are pretty exhausting. This is a topic I have only more recently become more interested in. As I have looked into the Meso American theory's they haven't seemed right. As much as part of me wants them to be. Just looking at and observing archaeological discoveries from the Nephites and Lamanites would truly be thrilling. Thanks Rock for putting this together. It's been an interesting read. But then, your articles usually are. <br><br><br>Ashleyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07490353020191832887noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-67123758986225264812013-04-04T12:13:44.667-07:002013-04-04T12:13:44.667-07:00This comment has been removed by a blog administra...This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-67679174084884137632013-04-04T11:51:23.375-07:002013-04-04T11:51:23.375-07:00there was no gold plates,,they were always covered...there was no gold plates,,they were always covered up with a towel or rags so no one really ever seen themjust more of joe smiths dam lies false church fales profitAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-3308405397404416462013-01-25T17:15:05.872-08:002013-01-25T17:15:05.872-08:00The joint paper from the academics involved in the...The joint paper from the academics involved in the "Lost Civilisations" videos, mentioned several times above, has been published and is in three parts here:<br><br>http://www.csicop.org/si/show/civilizations_lost_and_found_fabricating_history_-_part_one_an_alternate_re<br><br>http://www.csicop.org/si/show/civilizations_lost_and_found_fabricating_history_-_part_two_false_messages<br><br>http://www.csicop.org/si/show/civilizations_lost_and_found_fabricating_history_-_part_three_real_messages<br><br>The papers do not address Mormonism at all, but they are very interesting, and would be essential reading for anybody interested in the real history of the area.spannernoreply@blogger.com