tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post4675716350938923818..comments2024-03-13T12:52:19.391-07:00Comments on Pure Mormonism: Bare Necessities: How To Calculate What You Owe In TithingAlan Rock Watermanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comBlogger125125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-63760828719859449162020-02-28T05:51:07.676-08:002020-02-28T05:51:07.676-08:00Nice blog and good information you share thanks.
...Nice blog and good information you share thanks.<br /><br /><a href="https://www.nika-talana.ru/" rel="nofollow">nika-talana</a>Jannatul fardoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04182362650822006684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-79504254129895864682019-08-06T06:27:35.329-07:002019-08-06T06:27:35.329-07:00A critical point is missing here. Even though a mi...A critical point is missing here. Even though a mission president is reimbursed for the living expenses he incurs, he is given no money beyond the expenses he incurred. So, if he were to try to pay a tithe on the value of his support, he would have to borrow money or take it from his savings. That is not practical. It's like if you were given a job as a nanny, with the deal being that you can live in the home and all of your food and living expenses are covered, but you will receive no additional money. In that scenario, like the mission president, your tithing would have to be zero or near zero, because you have no actual money (income) to pay it. Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09185636886915382781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-59957786983562932902016-12-11T21:50:25.757-08:002016-12-11T21:50:25.757-08:00So if they are a mission president are those livin...So if they are a mission president are those living expenses not the same as living expenses for regular members? So if i understand this correctly a hard working member of the church needs to pay tithes on their income buta mission president pays on increase? That Doesn't make sense. Ricky and Katy Tullishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01207295562302311536noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-26766112790067798582015-04-22T22:49:25.919-07:002015-04-22T22:49:25.919-07:00What our anonymous commenter conveniently neglects...What our anonymous commenter conveniently neglects to include in his quotation from Elder Widtsoe's chapter on tithing is the following:<br /><br />"When tithing has been paid, there should be no question about its use. They who are sustained as leaders of the Church return all offerings to the people for various purposes. The tithing of the people make it possible for the Church to carry out the duties entrusted to it by the Lord in the development of the plan of salvation. By divine revelation the tithes of the people are administered by the Presidency of the Church, assisted by the Council of the Twelve and the Presiding Bishopric. These men exercise prayerful care in the use of tithing. It is disbursed with scrupulous care, for it is sacred. No moneys in all the world are more honestly administered."<br /><br />Anyone attempting to apply that statement to the way things are run today would be laughed out of the room. We know one thing: the monies haven't been "honestly" administered since 1959, when the leaders, without so much as announcing a revelation from the Lord authorizing the change, simply stopped informing the members as to where their tithing money goes. <br /><br />The Law of tithing as defined by the Lord in 1838 was described by Him as "a standing law FOREVER."<br /><br />None of us is authorized to re-interpret that law based on what we THINK words mean in our day. I don't care what office he holds in the Church, no man's opinion is sufficient to usurp the word of God as given through direct revelation. The "standing law forever" remains standing the way the Lord dictated it. Wishful thinking will have no effect on it.Alan Rock Watermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-45440649729937788382015-04-22T22:48:03.175-07:002015-04-22T22:48:03.175-07:00Anonymous at 8:26 writes: "Pay your tithing a...Anonymous at 8:26 writes: "Pay your tithing as Christ through the voice of his servants has asked, and you will be blessed." <br /><br />And yet nowhere in that long quotation he presents from John Widtsoe do we find any place where Christ claims to be speaking through Elder Widtsoe. So where is the voice of authority in that statement?<br /><br />The one place we do find the voice of Christ speaking through His servant is in section 119 of the Doctrine & Covenants. John Widtsoe was a wonderful man who taught many important truths, but his opinions do not trump the voice of God as recorded through His actual prophet.<br /><br />John Widtsoe declares that tithing means one tenth. He is correct. But one tenth of what? Widtsoe says it's "one-tenth of a person’s income, interest, or increase."<br /><br />Although those words IN JOSEPH SMITH'S DAY were understood to be roughly synonymous, since 1913 the U.S. Government has successfully convinced the general public that "income" means the same as "Gross income," or wages. That's not what it originally meant. I would suggest it is not a good idea to assume the Lord meant "income" of any sort when he defined tithing, because HE never used the word "income" in his instructions regarding it. <br /><br />He didn't say it was "increase" either. The particular word Jesus Christ used to describe what our donations were to be "one tenth of" was our "interest." That, as I pointed out in the original post (which Anonymous claims difficulty following the logic of), is defined by Noah Webster in his dictionary of the English language published in 1828. That meaning of the word was still valid when the Lord used it to reveal his will 10 years after Webster's first dictionary was published.<br /><br />In verse 5, the Lord further clarifies that tithes were to come from the Saint's "surplus properties," which means their possessions, including but not limited to the money they had on hand at the end of the year.<br /><br />It's fine if we want to consider tithing to be "income" and "increase" as well as "interest," but ONLY if we consider those words the way they were understood at the time the Lord issued that revelation. And what they meant then was the property the Saints had in their possession AFTER their basic needs had been met.<br /><br />The only question a tithepayer must ask himself is "am I being honest in determining what constitutes my 'basic needs'?<br /><br />By Widtsoe's day (the book containing those quotes was published in 1943) the Lord's clear meaning of "increase" had already been muddied. But that was the fault of those engaged in muddying the meaning; it certainly wasn't the Lord's fault. He gave a clear and easily understood statement defining what was expected.<br /><br />Elder Widtsoe says, "Under such a system [the one the Lord commanded to be followed] most people would show nothing on which to pay tithing."<br /><br />I disagree. SOME people might, particularly widows and the destitute. I'm considered to be living under the poverty level, but even I manage to have money left over after my BASIC needs have been met. <br /><br />Both Orson Pratt and James Talmage, apostles who happened to be on the scene before John Widtsoe, declared that those who had no increase upon which to tithe were understandably exempt. But I think most members of the church do have some increase from which to tithe, and their tithes, at least in former days, were sufficient to cover the proper expenses of the Church. I would suggest that one reason the Church fathers require more in tithing than is necessary, is that they are not limiting their spending to those expenses which the Lord might consider proper.<br /><br />Alan Rock Watermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-84394574229427562252015-04-22T20:26:59.677-07:002015-04-22T20:26:59.677-07:00All,
Please see this resource from the lds.org we...All,<br /><br />Please see this resource from the lds.org website: <br /><br />In particular on that page see this statement from Elder Widtsoe: https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-student-manual/section-110-121/section-119-the-law-of-tithing?lang=eng<br /><br /><br />Elder John A. Widtsoe explained: “Tithing means one-tenth. Those who give less do not really pay tithing; they are lesser contributors to the Latter-day cause of the Lord. Tithing means one-tenth of a person’s income, interest, or increase. The merchant should pay tithing upon the net income of his business, the farmer upon the net income of his farming operations; the wage earner or salaried man upon the wage or salary earned by him. Out of the remaining nine-tenths he pays his current expenses … etc. To deduct living costs … and similar expenses from the income and pay tithing upon the remainder does not conform to the Lord’s commandment. Under such a system most people would show nothing on which to pay tithing. There is really no place for quibbling on this point. Tithing should be given upon the basis of our full earned income. If the nature of a business requires special interpretation, the tithepayer should consult the father of his ward, the bishop.” (Evidences and Reconciliations, 2:86.)<br /><br /><br /><br />The above obviously refutes the logic of this post. And please do not respond by inferring that it is incorrect of the church to reimburse mission presidents for their expenses (many of which go unreimbursed because most mission presidents can pay for themselves and wouldn't be reimbursed if they could do so. This is really meant for those mission presidents from humble circumstances who have no other means to pay for these things. And believe me, a mission president in such circumstances will be much more modest than it appears the posters on this form suppose). Add to that the fact that mission presidents devote their entire 24/7 time to the Lord and the fact that they constitute perhaps 0.005% of the membership of the church at any given time.<br /><br />Remember that John A Widtsoe was a special witness of Christ. You can be assured that he received revelation more clear and precise than either you or I can receive.<br /><br />Trust in the Lord's anointed. Pay your tithing as Christ through the voice of his servants has asked, and you will be blessed.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-36007754068809102772015-04-22T19:47:56.603-07:002015-04-22T19:47:56.603-07:00Amen Marsha; I completely agree. Thank you for ech...Amen Marsha; I completely agree. Thank you for echoing my sentiment as I read both this article and the comments to this article.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-22027294079980333802015-02-01T22:32:31.613-08:002015-02-01T22:32:31.613-08:00So, everything boils down to one thing, if you don...So, everything boils down to one thing, if you don't believe the church anymore that it is being guided by revelation, then there's really no point in paying tithing anymore, if you think Christ did not organize a church but just asked people to simply live His teachings then it is fine, I would buy that. And you know, even if I pay my tithing, I still do not forget my obligation to help those in need in the best way I can because that's what I've been taught by the scriptures to do. It has never occurred to me that just because I am paying my tithes that I no longer need to care about others or help them financially when I am able. I don't care to give much of what I have, after all Christ has asked us to lose everything for Him.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11694912364644589739noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-71886571370771763252015-02-01T09:49:55.105-08:002015-02-01T09:49:55.105-08:00Marsha,
The problem is, Christ never told us to ...Marsha, <br /><br />The problem is, Christ never told us to give our tithes or any money to the LDS Church or any Church. He very clearly commanded us to give all our excess money to the poor, and only the poor, sick, needy and afflicted. <br /><br />It is only church leaders who preach contrary to Christ, yet who claim to be prophets, who we have fallen for and thus are deceived to them our tithes and offerings instead of to the poor as Christ commanded. <br /><br />We will be held accountable for allowing ourselves to be deceived by false prophets who we give our money to instead of to the poor directly.<br /><br />Christ never said the LDS Church is his Church (very unrighteous men claimed that, please look into these early leaders), nor do I believe Christ would have anything to do with the LDS Church for it preaches and practices so completely contrary to him and destroys families & creates far more poor people then it saves. <br /><br />To think that the Spirit directs us to give money & support to the Church is a huge red flag that we are in fact being influenced & deceived by a 'false' Spirit, as everyone is today, even the righteous at times. <br /><br />For even the supposed best prophets throughout history have been deceived by false Spirits to do contrary to Christ and even evil things, all the while thinking that God had told them to do it. <br /><br />So to base anything we believe or do on what we think 'the Spirit' tells us, is one of the fastest ways to be deceived, for everyone falls for false Spirits yet we don't usually know it and can't always tell true Spirits from from false ones or true revelation from false revelation, unless we compare what is relayed to what Christ taught. <br /><br />Thus Christ commanded us to test all 'Spirits, Prophets & Precepts to see if they are of God/Christ or not, and thus if they are contrary to Christ then he said we will easily and instantly know they are false. <br /><br />So if we are deceived it is only because we want to be and want to go the easy route and let someone else take care of the poor for us, if they ever do. <br /><br />Christ commanded us to base our actions & beliefs on 'proof' not prophets, on 'fruit' not feelings, on 'his teachings' not the Spirit's impressions. <br /><br />And thus if we fall for false prophets & false churches and give them our money, then we have refused to follow Christ and his warnings about just such false prophets. <br /><br />And Christ warned us we will lose Eternal Life if we fall for and give our money and support to false prophets (who of course always tell us to give 'them' our money), for then we are causing the poor to suffer more, because we would rather follow prophets or some Spirit, then Christ. <br /><br />Christ's words trump everyone, prophets, spirits, and even angels who might appear to us. <br /><br />I agree it would be alot easier if we could just let leaders do our humanitarian work for us and lead us to heaven, but Christ knew that no man or leader or even prophet can be trusted and thus commanded us to take care of the poor ourselves and discern for ourselves what is right or wrong. <br /><br />No matter how good we may feel giving the Church our money and hoping they use it right, I know our joy, blessings and righteousness will greatly increase if we follow Christ's commandments instead of church leaders, and directly take care of the poor and fatherless around us ourselves, instead of giving our money to very fallible and usually unrighteous leaders who have proven they pocket some themselves and use most of it on things other then the poor.BKnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-77624544401260124502015-02-01T00:59:44.028-08:002015-02-01T00:59:44.028-08:00I will pay my tithes because I am commanded by the...I will pay my tithes because I am commanded by the Lord to do so and the spirit tells me I should. Now, I don't exactly know everything as to how the church is spending the tithing funds but I'll just leave it to the Lord, it is His business,if people in the church are not spending the funds the way the Lord would have them spend it is again none of my business, if we believe He has all power and control over His church, He will know what to do and I'll leave everything to Him for who can stand Him? Now my business is to do what He asks me to do and He asks me to pay my tithes, after all I don't feel it a sacrifice to pay my tithes and I find joy in knowing that while I don't live like the mission presidents live as I am from a poor family and country (the Philippines), my heart is content in knowing that I get to obey Him, in my sphere it is all that matters, I am no longer accountable for the actions of others it is their accountability if they do wrongly.I will continue to try to live faithfully and will not leave the church because the church has helped me anchor my soul in the gospel of Jesus Christ. For me, it is easy to get caught up in the world but I am grateful for the church cause it helps me to be reminded of things that really matter and what the Lord wants for me. I am happy and I know and feel that the church is still being led by Him.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11694912364644589739noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-89698604069252532682015-01-27T13:49:32.478-08:002015-01-27T13:49:32.478-08:00Interesting point of view BK. I'm not going to...Interesting point of view BK. I'm not going to get into a debate right now, but I did want to point out the one thing I do agree with you on and that is that I do believe Christ asks us to give 100%, not only of our money but of our time and talents. There is a great deal in LDS doctrine to support that, particularly in the temple. Does this mean that we live in poverty ourselves though? Not necessarily, but I certainly wouldn't judge someone who does. I think that the principle here is actually that we should simply spend our lives serving God. It's not just a money thing. I would argue however, that in many cases we must have resources in order to bless the lives of others. If you yourself are destitute, then it is difficult to server others. For this reason I will never look at a "rich man" and judge him based on his wealth alone as he may very well be using all that he possess to bless the lives of others as Christ would have him do. <br /><br />I believe that when Christ asked the rich man to sell all that he had that this was the necessary sacrifice for this man to show that he would truly serve God. Thus any rich man should ask himself if he would at any moment sell or even give away what he has if the spirit prompted him to do so and if he is humble enough to even listen to that spirit. Now, I believe that very few rich men would actually do this, thus why Christ said "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God".<br /><br />My Father was on the extreme of literally giving away anything and everything he had to anyone who said they were in need. He did this at the expense of his own family, destroying his 4 marriages. Now, I have no doubt that my father will be blessed for his selflessness and it is something I wish to emulate, but at the same time it left him in less of a position to be of aid to others (as he became a beggar himself in his later years) and in fact hurt those closest to him more than it really helped the lives of those he blessed.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12935912449589786885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-53835868819842246192015-01-26T11:00:49.637-08:002015-01-26T11:00:49.637-08:00Albert,
Christ said tons about what we should do...Albert, <br /><br />Christ said tons about what we should do with our excess money, if we have ears to hear. <br /><br />And I don't believe Joseph Smith was a true prophet, just the opposite, and thus I do not believe D&C 119 was from 'The Lord' or even in harmony with what Christ taught. <br /><br />For I believe that giving money to and relieving the suffering of the poor, the fatherless, the afflicted 'IS' the 'Gospel of Jesus Christ', and is the only way to attain Eternal Life. <br /><br />If we don't give all we can to the poor & fatherless around us, it will not matter what else we do or how much we pray, read the scriptures, go to church or any other good deed. <br /><br />I believe righteous people instinctively know this and would use every extra penny they have to do this, thus there wouldn't be anything left over to give to some man who comes along claiming God said to give him 10% of our money to build a big & spacious church or temple or to pay him to lead us. <br /><br />Those who follow Christ know they can easily & should lead themselves & take care of the poor themselves, they don't need to 'pay' a prophet to lead them or take care of the poor for them. <br /><br />If you would follow Christ & really visit & talk to the afflicted, the poor, the single mothers, the sick, the imprisoned, you would understand their plight & sufferings, and realize that not only did Christ's directive to the 'rich man' include everyone who ever lived, but you would feel to give 100% of your excess to the poor yourself, without even being told to. <br /><br />I realize how tempting it is to want to believe that Christ's directive to the rich man was only for him, (for it's a very hard commandment to follow) but that would not be fair or make sense, for that would mean that the rich man would have to sacrifice alot more than others would, which would also be contrary to the Golden Rule. <br /><br />And again, in practice we find that if we had true empathy & love & were Christlike we would of course give 100% of our excess. So we quickly learn that it 'is' a vital requirement for Eternal Life for everyone. <br /><br />If you & your family were really poor & suffering & you couldn't work, it would be easier for you to maybe realize (if you had love) why Christ said what he said, because you would rather have financial help then have a church building or temple to go to (which are man's idea and completely unnecessary to gaining Eternal Life), or to give money to support church leaders or build malls.<br /><br />And though the Apostles might have carried a purse (which didn't Christ tell them not to?) but who said the Apostles were perfect? There is much that they did & taught that was not right, true or in harmony with Christ's teachings. <br /><br />We are not to follow the teachings & actions of 'the Apostles' or any man or prophet, but only the teachings & actions of Christ, who taught & served for free & who did not ask people for money but directed them to give it to the poor themselves. <br /><br />And again, what middleman or leader in any church, especially the LDS Church, has ever proved trustworthy to take money from people & use it as Christ taught, for the poor? It appears they either pocket some themselves or give just enough to the poor to look good but use most of it to grow their church & businesses, while ignoring most of the suffering around them. <br /><br />Joseph Smith himself appeared to do this also, so why would I trust him with my money or trust anyone who believes in his D&C 119?<br /> <br />Righteous men would use all money they had (after caring for their own family) to relieve suffering around them, & would never think about building a church, temple, missionary program, college, or mall, let alone give 1 penny to support able bodied leaders who could & should work themselves instead of expecting members & even the poor to support them. BKnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-46193962024904134132015-01-26T08:21:00.524-08:002015-01-26T08:21:00.524-08:00Bro. BK -
What, specifically, is "wrong"...Bro. BK -<br />What, specifically, is "wrong" or contrary to Christ's teachings, about what Malachi said, or 'saith the Lord' said ? You seem to conflate or confuse issues. You seem to be saying that 'because Christ never said anything, in this case about tithing, that we are free to do as we like, because nothing of what exists is according to His teachings'. (Of course, we're free to think and do as we like, free agency and all, but...)<br /><br />There are lots of things He didn't say anything about, or has been distorted or deleted, but that doesn't mean that something is against His teachings. That error of logic is why the Amish decline anything more advanced than a horse and buggy and still burn kerosene to read by. I assume you drive a car, use electricity, wear zippered pants, buttoned shirt, and laced or velro shoes instead of a robe and sandals - and have shorter hair than Rock or me...<br /><br />Not mocking you or the Amish, just an example. Then, on the other hand, there are a lot of His teachings which are impossible to apply - try living by the Parables ! Anyway...<br /><br />The early apostles clearly carried a "purse" or treasury, a little money bag, around with them. Scripture does not record how money got there - I doubt that it all came from coins in the mouth of fish - I conclude that people donated to the cause, but no, we don't know the formula. That does not make it "against Christ's teachings" either. <br /><br />The only person I can think of that the Lord told to give ALL to the poor and needy was the righteous rich man who wanted to know what he yet lacked to get into Heaven. That was case-specific, not general advice for all disciples. It takes more than "giving to the poor". You apparently feel burned and are still working your way through the issues - don't throw the baby that you are cleaning up out with the dirty bath water...<br /><br />Here's the logic kicker: IF Joseph was receiving a revelation that became Section 119, and IF that revelation came from the Lord, THEN (recommended reading) section 119 is... Christ's teaching - clearly a directive to give Tithing to a "middle man", the Bishop. And how we calculate it is up to our free agency. As to giving to the poor, as you point out, that is up to us - and we're free to choose how and how much, Fast Offering fund, food bank, other charity... I hope this is helpful.Albertnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-12661210592046098842015-01-25T13:41:30.598-08:002015-01-25T13:41:30.598-08:00Albert,
I appreciate your response but as for me...Albert, <br /><br />I appreciate your response but as for me, I believe Christ's teachings trump Malachi's teachings and clearly prove them to be false, or anyone one else's, ancient or modern, who teachings are contrary to Christ. <br /> <br />Galations 1:8 "Though we (Prophets, Apostles), or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."<br /><br />But I totally understand why most everyone, especially churches or so called 'Prophets', ancient or modern, buy into the idea of 'Tithing', for I agree that 10% is alot easier to convince people to pay then 100%. <br /><br />But we see that most of Christ's teachings are greatly watered down, changed or ignored by most, if not all, Christian Churches, for who can or is willing to really keep or even believe in Christ's commandments?<br />BKnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-56910765186541317312015-01-25T11:53:16.846-08:002015-01-25T11:53:16.846-08:00BK makes some unsubstantiated assertions and concl...BK makes some unsubstantiated assertions and conclusions - and several folks have talked about giving directly to the needy - that's all well & good, fine & wonderful. You can do that, or donate to Fast Offerings, a food bank, other charity, whatever. But, if you're going to pay Tithing, no matter how you calculate it, D&C 119 is very clear, verse 1 says it goes to the Bishop... To do otherwise probably puts one into Malachi chapter 3 territory, "robbing God", although for different reasons than what Rock said in another article. There was a time when I donated it all to Fast Offerings, but that never felt right to me and I went back to a split formula...Albertnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-19524763264697643792015-01-24T13:44:36.856-08:002015-01-24T13:44:36.856-08:00I believe that if we fund or support churches that...I believe that if we fund or support churches that commit 'financial abuses' we are partly responsible. <br /><br />For Christ never said a word about giving or trusting one penny to any man or leader, religious or political, for what leader has ever proved trustworthy to do with it what Christ wanted? <br /><br />Christ commanded us to give 'all' our excess money directly to the poor ourselves, for that's the only way we can make sure it gets where it should and that's how we come to learn of and feel for the real plight of the poor, so we gain compassion, empathy and insight. <br /><br />There are no lower or higher laws, there are only the Laws of Christ/God. Anything greater or lesser then Christ's laws cometh of evil. <br /><br />Any so called 'prophet' who teaches contrary or different then Christ's exact words only proves he is one of the false prophets that Christ warned us about. <br /><br />Christ never taught about any 'Law of Consecration' or tithing, those were man made ideas to circumvent Christ's commandments so conspiring leaders could take control of resources and people. <br /><br />Those leaders knew what Christ said and they refused to teach it for then they would lose power and control. For money brings alot of power. <br /><br />Christ wanted the poor empowered, not the Leaders. BKnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-62992599794464804292015-01-24T13:26:48.483-08:002015-01-24T13:26:48.483-08:00Rock -
Stunning article ! There were some gem ph...Rock - <br />Stunning article ! There were some gem phrases I picked out, you should subtitle it "Lifestyles of the Lord’s Anointed:<br />How to Calculate Your Tithing Like Mission Presidents Do"<br /><br />Another angle missed by all in figuring your tithing: comparing the difference between being an employee and a business. If your business were to pay tithing, would anyone in their right mind pay 10% of gross receipts ? No way, they'd go broke, fast! They would first, and rightly, deduct ALL legitimate business expenses that go into generating the profit/surplus - just like they would if they fill out the Financial Confession Form 1040 for the Tax Gestapo - and would pay a full 10% tithing on... you guessed it - the Surplus/profit of the business. Isn't that amazing ?<br /><br />If you take the analogy one step further, a la "Rich Dad" Kiyosaki - if you're an employee, you are a business with only one customer (and a ton more legal protections), and your deductable expenses would look a lot like the mission president's expenses list. The Income that creates the Surplus is what's tithed upon. Isn't that amazing ? (I especially like the deduction for the maid, cook, nanny... What was I thinking when I paid tithing on my gross before I paid them ??)<br /><br />So, all quibbling about intentions aside - When you figure up your tithing, as an employee / "one-customer business", download a copy of that mission president manual in case you need it for backup at tithing settlement time, figure up your surplus after your legitimate and reasonable living expenses, check with the Lord, cut Him in on 10% of the Surplus (just as He asked in Section 119), make your Full Tithe Payer declaration - and your "fire insurance" (I loathe that trite term...) is paid ~ Hallelujah !Albertnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-30301077763698721052015-01-24T13:03:04.941-08:002015-01-24T13:03:04.941-08:00David -
Tithing is indeed the "lower law"...David -<br />Tithing is indeed the "lower law". And given the way the Corporate Church has amassed centralized control of all the money - can you imagine how much worse the corruption and misuse of funds would be under the current practices (non-transparency, multi-billion-dollar malls, Florida ranchland, etc.) if we consecrated all ?!<br /><br />Does anyone remember how recently the Central Church grabbed all the local money from Bishops, Quorums, Relief Society, etc. and put itself over every unit in complete financial control, under the guise of preventing an occasional minor theft ? It hasn't been 30 years, and already our former local control of funds has been forgotten. Fast Offerings are about the only vestige of local direction left, albeit with some stringent corporate guidelines...<br /><br />Also lost in your understanding is that "tithing" according to Section 119 has some very strict limitations on it's use (verse 2), it's not an unaccountable slush-fund for the PR / Marketing machine and Real Estate gambling !<br /><br />The real Law of Consecration is a wholly different matter, is and can only be administered locally from the bottom up, starting between you and your Bishop. <br /><br />The only way to get the attention of a bureaucracy is to cut it's funding. If "paying less tithing" (while also giving more charity from your surplus) results in fewer financial abuses, and maybe even some much needed reforms - So be it !Albertnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-32498590225674571592015-01-06T20:20:53.786-08:002015-01-06T20:20:53.786-08:00David,
I felt this post was already overly long w...David, <br />I felt this post was already overly long without going into a topic that I assume most people already understand to be the higher goal.<br /><br />In this post I two major purposes. First, to dispel falsehoods about the Law of Tithing, and Secondly, to encourage greater giving OUTSIDE the tithes that are designed only to fund the operation of the Church.<br /><br />So what I write about alms and offerings being the larger portion of our giving brings us closer to living the law of consecration.Alan Rock Watermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-82546530972422484222015-01-06T10:59:15.802-08:002015-01-06T10:59:15.802-08:00One thing that bothers me about this article is th...One thing that bothers me about this article is that nowhere (I may have missed something though) do you mention that tithing is the lower law. So imho I feel like trying to justify paying less tithing is simply keeping us from living the higher law. Not that you are necessarily telling people to pay less tithing, but I personally feel like if I am giving closer to 100% of my excess, I am actually closer to living the higher law of consecration. Not trying to be critical of the actual data presented as I think you're right, just think that it should be mentioned that tithing should not really be the goal, but instead should be the minimum.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12935912449589786885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-52840783632578098022014-08-10T15:21:40.910-07:002014-08-10T15:21:40.910-07:00Caitlin,
The amount of money you pay in tithes is ...Caitlin,<br />The amount of money you pay in tithes is between you and the Lord. No church authority is permitted to ask you anything other than "Are you a full tithepayer?"<br /><br />If you are satisfied that God is satisfied you are a full tithepayer, then the answer is yes, you are a full tithepayer.<br /><br />You are not under obligation to either confide in a church leader or ask the leader's counsel on this matter. <br /><br />What does the Lord say? That's your answer.Alan Rock Watermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-8277016845091118432014-08-10T15:04:19.014-07:002014-08-10T15:04:19.014-07:00As someone who is beginning her study of The Book ...As someone who is beginning her study of The Book of Mormon and who has set a tentative date for baptism of Sept 25 of this year I have many questions of course. I am 64 years old and on social security. I support both myself and my adopted daughter who has CP. I am single and have been all of my life. I have never been religious before I began this study. My main question at this point is Will I be able to be baptised and a good member of the church if I tithe 10% after I pay my rent, food, med, etc. I am willing to do this without reservation, but I cannot pay 10% of gross, that means we dont eat for two weeks.<br />CaitlinAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-55766043740613181102014-04-04T10:08:50.545-07:002014-04-04T10:08:50.545-07:00Lee, I probably am as crazy as you initially thoug...Lee, I probably am as crazy as you initially thought, so no offense taken.Alan Rock Watermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-40279733978954988852014-04-04T10:05:53.986-07:002014-04-04T10:05:53.986-07:00JD,
I hadn't seen your question before I answ...JD,<br /> I hadn't seen your question before I answered Lee's similar concern above. It's important to understand that Jonathan provided that definition as a distillation of the information he had already presented within the previous entries in his series, which can be found in the links he provides a paragraph or two before he provides that succinct definition. <br /><br />Also, his conclusion that tithing is "ten percent of income more than we have need" serves as a concise definition of what tithing is meant to be as explained in my own piece, "Are We Paying Too Much Tithing?"<br /><br />I can see how Jonathan's phrasing might confuse some people, placed as it is right after mentioning the CHI. But a proper parsing of that rather lengthy sentence reveals that he is saying that the "meaning of the language of the revelation" was "supported" by the CHI as well as restored scripture, not that the statement is quoting directly from the CHI. (The actual words "more than that which he had need" comes to us from an accounting of Abraham's tithes in the JST.)<br /><br />I hope that clarifies things a bit.<br /><br />Alan Rock Watermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-43044321673585513362014-04-04T09:54:29.902-07:002014-04-04T09:54:29.902-07:00Thanks, Alan. I just got into his previous post a...Thanks, Alan. I just got into his previous post and read the JST of Genesis 14, wow. I totally missed that before. I got pretty up in arms on one of your earlier tithing posts, but after listening to most of your interview with John Dehlin, I realize you're not as crazy as I thought initially (said tongue in cheek). I appreciate you bringing these issues up for discussion.coolhandlukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16660912739308505050noreply@blogger.com