tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post293682804669608897..comments2024-03-13T12:52:19.391-07:00Comments on Pure Mormonism: Who You Callin' Apostate?Alan Rock Watermanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comBlogger250125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-36316786797691261232013-08-05T22:32:55.206-07:002013-08-05T22:32:55.206-07:00Hey Rock,I've just gotta share a few things. F...Hey Rock,<br><br>I've just gotta share a few things. <br><br>First, I LOVE your soul, brother. I just became aware of your blog through friends, and I'm completely blown away, though I've only read around 10 entries so far). On my current ranking of celestial coolness, you're second only to Denver Snuffer, and that's really saying something. (Not that you're anything, mind you. But the truths you teach, and the way you teach them, pure gold!)<br><br>Second, you give me HOPE! Zion may yet be built in this generation! We just gotta get a few more people on board! I'm doing all I can to open the eyes of those I can reach, and you're doing about a million times more than me. Thank you for the incredible tools you're making available.<br><br>And now one scriptural thought from this post:<br><br>Here's one to ponder about Lehi's dream. Nephi very clearly defines certain elements of the dream. For example, the tree he directly identifies as representing the love of God (1 Ne 11:22). This is always in relation to the TREE.<br><br>But then in 1 Ne 15:36 he speaks more specifically about the FRUIT of the tree, or in this case, the fruit of God's love. He states that it is "the greatest of all the gifts of God."<br><br>A quick trip over to D&C 14:7 tells us that "if you keep my commandments and endure to the end you shall have eternal life, which gift is the greatest of all the gifts of God."<br><br>Yeah, it's word-for-word verbatim. So, at least one interpretation, and I believe it correct, is that the fruit is actually meant to represent eternal life (the greatest of all the gifts of God.)<br><br>This starts to make sense. Eternal life is the fruit of God's love (the tree). It fills the soul with joy. It is sweet above all that is sweet and white above all that is white. <br><br>It also makes sense that Laman and Lemuel wouldn't partake, while Lehi, Sariah, Nephi, and Sam did. (Obviously, God loves Laman and Lemuel just as much as he loves the others. But they would not partake of the offered fruit, or the opportunity for eternal life.)<br><br>So it's a thought to consider. I've always liked that interpretation. And it's really the only place where the fruit is actually, specifically identified. <br><br>Of course, I hear all the time that the fruit is the love of God, but of course Nephi only says that about the tree, not about the fruit.<br><br>So there's my thought. Thanks again for what you're doing here. Keep up the good work brother! I'll be praying for your apostate (haw!) soul.<br><br>Adriannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-1091701841909724542013-01-23T09:10:02.075-08:002013-01-23T09:10:02.075-08:00Just found your blog, so this comment is way after...Just found your blog, so this comment is way after the fact. I have noticed the over dependence on the "Brethren" as well. A few years ago I was teaching a youth Sunday School class about personal revelation and the importance of following our personal revelation. The Sunday School president was visiting that day. I started off by asking what if they had a dream like Lehi, telling them to take their families and go. I asked the Sunday School president and his response chilled me. He said "I would go to the Bishop and ask if this was a real revelation." In other words, we are not even qualified to receive our own revelation without input from our leaders. I knew we were in trouble at that point, at the point that we stopped accepting our own revelations and trusting our own relationship to Heavenly Father and the Holy Ghost.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-35778462991761113362012-08-31T13:54:20.217-07:002012-08-31T13:54:20.217-07:00May God bless you with a knowledge of his truth an...May God bless you with a knowledge of his truth and the simple precious truth that "...that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but HAVE (present tense)everlasting life." John 3:16Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-83343441065948063622012-08-31T13:51:28.147-07:002012-08-31T13:51:28.147-07:00And then if there is no need for priesthood there ...And then if there is no need for priesthood there is no need for any of the Mormon ordinances that require priesthood authority. Of course, the favorite to attack is Baptism. Actually it’s not “required” for eternal life (though a good many Christian denominations argue otherwise). John 3:5 “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” Simple question what is amniotic fluid? Everyone woman knows without fail if her “water breaks” it’s time to have the baby. Jesus was answering Nicodemus’s question of reentering his mother's womb and that’s why he says in verses 6 “…flesh is flesh; and… spirit is spirit.” Again Jesus says in versus 8 “…so is every one that is born of the Spirit.” Two very different births, one of flesh with a “spiritually dead” spirit and again spiritually. Thence the difference between those that at spiritually dead and spiritually alive, as stated in us being new creatures in 2 Corinthians 5:17, Galatains 6:15, Ezekiel 36:26. My final point on necessity of baptism is Luke 23:43, the thief on the cross was not ever stated to have been baptized, yet Jesus said he would be with him. For a solely Biblically based Christian, baptism is an outward “confession” if you will of dyeing to their old selves and rising again alive in Christ. <br><br>As for the Great Apostasy in 2 Thessalonians 2: 1-12 it talks about how the apostasy is when the Anit-Christ (“Wicked” – lawless one) is reigning on earth and that he (and thus the apostasy) will end with Christ’s coming. So again, no restoration, making Joseph Smith Jr. either seriously deceived or intentionally deceitful (as 2 Corinthians 11:14-15 addresses). <br><br>This video also offers a good, kind comparison on trusting the reliably of Joseph Smith (and the Book of Mormon) vs. The Bible solely. You can watch it instantly through Amazon or it can be bought at a number of different places. <br>http://www.amazon.com/The-Bible-VS-Joseph-Smith/dp/B007S1EKAA/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1346428648&sr=8-2&keywords=The+Bible+vs+Joseph+Smith<br>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-87298771908147990822012-08-31T13:50:50.575-07:002012-08-31T13:50:50.575-07:00I’ve read that post before and I suppose if I say ...I’ve read that post before and I suppose if I say I completely disagree with your assessment, in all fairness, I’ll have to provide an answer to your question of “Why did he have to allow that?” It will take me some time to put that answer together, but I will get back to you with a Biblically sound explanation of why He in fact did NOT HAVE to, He CHOSE to. <br><br>As for drifting “away from the God Joseph Smith tried to describe.” <br><br>I first have to go with the claim that the Bible is in error, that it’s been edited, changed, or what have you. The best website (at the moment) I can personally send you to for a sum up of the evidence for the accuracy of the New Testament is http://carm.org/manuscript-evidence. It’s really damn hard to discredit the New Testament. To claim that it has been changed in anyway shape or form. <br><br>That makes Nephi (and Joseph Smith for that matter) a false prophet and we’re not to follow false prophets. Being that the Book of Mormon is about Nephi and all those that followed after him (and agreed with him being a “true” prophet) we’re not to follow them either. They may point to Christ (or a type of Christ depending on your point of view), but just like Mormon’s believe the rest of Christianity is deceived and won’t make it to live with Heavenly Father again; the Book of Mormon doesn’t lead to salvation. Satan is clever and again like Mormon’s believe will make things appear to be heading in the right direction all the while leading them to hell.<br><br>Another idea to look at is Jesus repeatedly said “It is written” (referring to the Old Testament) when Satan tempted him. Satan never challenged Jesus on whether what was written (and actively believed to be handed down from scribe to scribe) to be in error. Satan never laughed at Jesus mocking him at how he (Satan) had managed to change it. Again, before anyone says it could have been taken out of the New Testament we have the evidence that that is not the case. (http://carm.org/old-testament-corrupted also helps in the reliability of the Old Testament, in addition to Christ there saying what was written at His time was accurate). <br><br>So, what was there to restore, if anything, when the Bible in fact has NOT been corrupted. Priesthood authority is the first that comes to mind. Reread Hebrews 7 the whole chapter is about priesthood. In Hebrews 7:11 it gives the question “…what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec…” Jesus is the High Priest, like that of Melchisedec and did you catch that…he said “what further need was there…” In other words there is NO need for anymore priests after the order of Melchisedec. Add to that he continues his question with “…and not be called after the order of Aaron?” What was the priesthood of Aaron? Making animal sacrifices, first for themselves and then for the people. Verses 27 of the same chapter “Who needeth not daily, as those high priests… …for this he (meaning Jesus) did once, when he offered up himself.” The necessity of the priests and priesthood ended when Jesus gave himself up to be sacrificed. <br>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-16439282174712391722012-08-30T21:30:24.047-07:002012-08-30T21:30:24.047-07:00I do agree with you that God is far more wonderful...I do agree with you that God is far more wonderfully amazing and awe-inspiring than one would believe if relying on modern Church teachings, but that is only because we have drifted away from the God Joseph Smith tried to describe. I made a feeble attempt to describe the really amazing, great expansive cosmogeny of God and the universe in my piece entitled "The Metaphysics of Mormonism."<br><br>At any rate, I am well aware that the LDS Church is not for everyone, and I do not begrudge anyone for taking their own path to understanding God. I wish you well as you continue your search for truth.<br><br>Here is that post:<br><br>http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2011/03/metaphysics-of-mormonism.htmlAlan Rock Watermanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-91139300114369053892012-08-30T18:29:00.732-07:002012-08-30T18:29:00.732-07:00Ummm...this maybe the first you've heard it, b...Ummm...this maybe the first you've heard it, but your blog helped my spouse and I leave the Church. You did help us not give up on God altogether, but your blog was definitely an instrument in helping us see past all the lie and leave the Church forever. The God of Mormonism isn't actually the God of the Bible. The True and Living God far is bigger than the little box Mormonism puts Him in. He's far more wonderfully amazing, and awe inspiring than the Mormon one is. Bible bashing will get a nowhere in a group such as this, but I thought since you've "yet to hear from one of these people who has been driven out of the church by something I've written." I'd let you know you were an instrument in God's hands, just not the way you intended.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-7068246530892420352012-08-17T10:23:30.023-07:002012-08-17T10:23:30.023-07:00Hey Ayon,No way to know for sure what your EQ inst...Hey Ayon,<br>No way to know for sure what your EQ instructor intended. I suspect he's making an assumption that personal revelation (that is inspired by the Holy Ghost) would align just fine with Church policy or general authorities who set policy when they too are inspired by the same source, the Holy Ghost.<br><br>My personal experience for obtaining personal revelation for myself and my family, areas for which I have stewardship and accountability, is actually pretty good, especially when my sweet wife is engaged in the effort. :-) My experience for obtaining inspiration for the families I Home Teach, and the areas of my church stewardship has also been pretty good. <br><br>My greatest regrets and road blocks have come when I have ignored, and sad to say even rebelled against inspiration I have sought. I'm just so irked when the powers of heaven don't align with what I want!<br><br>I'm meek enough to believe that Jesus Christ is actually at the head of the church. Like Nephi, "I know that [Father] loveth his children; nevertheless I do not know the meaning of all things." I do know, without doubt, that it is my responsibility to be clean and virtuous, and to offer a willing heart; willing to receive instruction and to respond to the inspiration. <br><br>Given that I still wrestle with my “natural man” (dang it) I’m happy to let the General Authorities set Church policy. Serving in leadership positions in the church and with various employers, I know there are lots of dynamics, influences, and players that those outside the circle of effort don't fully understand or appreciate. <br>My $.02 :-)<br>Love ya,<br>Shawn<br>Shawnhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06467262936668883120noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-78847374979001765392012-08-02T22:34:16.232-07:002012-08-02T22:34:16.232-07:00Sorry for the slow response. I don't know what...Sorry for the slow response. I don't know what I believe anymore. "Restored Gospel" is a loaded phrase. I believe there was a restorationist movement in the history of American Christianity...does that count?Head of Shiznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-76342144869853059982012-07-31T10:59:29.882-07:002012-07-31T10:59:29.882-07:00Thanks to that link to Hallstrom's talk. I had...Thanks to that link to Hallstrom's talk. I hadn't seen it nor heard of him. He'll be one to watch.<br><br>And speaking of links, John Colthorp has published an online periodical, the first issue of which speaks to the subject of apostasy and has a couple of dynamite quotes by Verlan Andersen I wish I had known about sooner. It's called Babylon's Rebel and you can see it here:<br><br>http://www.ldsapostasy.com/Babylon%27s%20Rebel,%20vol.%201,%20no.%201%20%2821%20July%202012%29.pdfAlan Rock Watermanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-30218796747672611372012-07-30T10:53:36.596-07:002012-07-30T10:53:36.596-07:00Just wanted to add one more scripture I have found...Just wanted to add one more scripture I have found that moves the pendulum further away from polygamy:<br><br>1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, THE HUSBAND OF ONE WIFE, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality...<br><br>In my mind, this seems to state that one given to polygamy is barred from holding this important office of the Priesthood. If polygamy is such a holy covenant, as most LDS accept D&C 132 to state in no uncertain terms (ironically, modern LDS accept it in the past as well as accept that it will be reinstated in the future, but most hypocritically poke fun at and persecute those who unabashedly consider it part of their fundamental belief faithfully til the present time. Still scratching my head on that one...) I wonder why then having more than one wife would discount an otherwise righteous man from ruling the house of the Lord? <br><br>The early Christian 'fathers' also had something to say on this issue:<br><br> Justin Martyr (160AD): <br> <br>"Your imprudent and blind masters even until this time permit each man to have four or five wives. And if anyone sees a beautiful woman and desires to have her, they quote the doings of Jacob." [ANF, vol. 1, p. 266] <br> <br> <br>Irenaeus (180AD): <br> <br>"Others, again, following upon Basilides and Carpocrates, have introduced promiscuous intercourse and a plurality of wives..." [ANF, vol. 1, p.353] <br> <br> <br>Tertullian (207AD): <br> <br>"Chapter 2- Marriage Lawful, But Not Polygamy: We do not indeed forbid the union of man and woman, blest by God as the seminary of the human race, and devised for the replenishment of the earth and the furnishing of the world, and therefore permitted, yet Singly. For Adam was the one husband of Eve, and Eve his one wife, one woman, one rib. (ANF: Tertullian, To His Wife) <br><br>My 2.5 cents :)Fusionnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-66017141037653186982012-07-29T20:39:48.129-07:002012-07-29T20:39:48.129-07:00Hello Rock!I've been reading your blog for awh...Hello Rock!<br><br>I've been reading your blog for awhile now. I just have to say thanks for what you write. I may not agree with all of it, but there is much I identify with and it's a breath of fresh air!<br><br>Some of my favorites:<br>"What is the Law of the Land?" I can't stand how some people seem to think that "law of the land" means every silly law under the sun. So this piece was a wonderful one to read.<br><br>"Living the Gospel or Living in Zombie Land?" I always enjoy anything that emphasizes keeping the Spirit near us. <br><br>"The Best Conference Talk You Never Read." That was a great talk! I actually heard a talk in april 2012 that also said the gospel and the church are not the same. <br><br>http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2012/04/converted-to-his-gospel-through-his-church?lang=eng <br><br>While it doesn't pack the same punch, I was surprised to hear a general authority (Hallstrom)here and now say it. And to hear Elder Hallstrom say that church attendence is not the ultimate goal? WOW! All you ever hear anymore is "attend your meetings!"<br><br>Anyway, those are just a few of my favorites. Keep up the good work, I look forward to your next post!<br><br>-Grateful ReaderAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-59934995468667791702012-07-29T19:09:21.629-07:002012-07-29T19:09:21.629-07:00One of the teachings that jumped out at me when fi...One of the teachings that jumped out at me when first taking the missionary lessons was that of our agency (does it ever say "free agency"). Being blessed with being able to make our own decisions. Again, it seems that so many inconsistencies started to become apparent after the 5 year mark, I noticed that for a church that preached we had a agency, it looked like their were a lot of people trying to rob me of it. By the way, I've been a member of the church now for 31 years so it's not that I just jumped off the turnip truck.<br><br>QUESTION: Since it has been so long, when do the "rank and file" or the "countless rabble" know when a mind expanding revelation has been uttered? I was always under the impression that we had the privilege of knowing by the power of the Spirit. So if every word uttered is treated as prophetic manna I guess there is no need to sift through it?<br><br>SUGGESTION: Maybe it should be just an option that prior to the confirmation, ask the person if they want there agency and be given the gift of the Holy Ghost or forfeit that blessing and just be told what to do and think.Bryan Peiferhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09058595383969894704noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-54173093598278878812012-07-29T14:47:25.320-07:002012-07-29T14:47:25.320-07:00Thanks Anonymous. Did you ever read that article ...Thanks Anonymous. Did you ever read that article by Mark Brown taken from Common Consent called Why Don’t They Like Us? that Rock posted here in Aug 2010? I just read it a couple of days ago. Sorry for lagging behind, but Mark talked about the conditional friendship that people offer when they want to recruit you. My conversation with someone at church today was about how when people get pumped up by the write out a family mission statement and to find out who can be taught. I sadly worked years for huge corporations like Key Bank and Bank One, which is now Chase. I know when something smacks of corporate speak and methods when I hear and see it. When I was a Ward Mission Leader we had a missionary Sunday and after our meetings they gathered everyone involved and excitedly asked the question, "What did ya think, huh?" They first asked me and I all I could say was, "it reminded me of a Amway pep-rally. Is there something wrong with this picture? This does not feel like love for my fellow man. The pure love of Christ is everything about the other person. "And when you do it, you just get a good feeling in you." Yeah, people hit up with heroin because it just makes them feel good inside. We need to come around to why the Savior did what he did. Mercy, compassion and pure love don't care about that warm fuzzy feeling we get inside when we do something selfless. I believe the transformation that comes within us when we are about clothing, feeding and comforting those who are without is the cleansing power of the Holy Ghost and by that transformation, we feel the love of God (the tree and fruit). Fortunate for us, the transformation doesn't come in an instance, but comes incrementally as our understanding of the things of God grow. The checklist of righteousness resembles nothing I've read in the scriptures. Checklists and charts are for boardrooms. The Savior wants our hearts and minds to mirror his, because everything he does and has done is without guile, self gratification and pride.<br><br>Again, thanks Anonymous.Bryan Peiferhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09058595383969894704noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-70734578326858287812012-07-29T10:11:50.011-07:002012-07-29T10:11:50.011-07:00Great comment Bryan. We can be ever learning but ...Great comment Bryan. We can be ever learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth or gain this 'love of God' in our hearts.<br><br>I only respond to love too, never a sales pitch. We must judge everything and everyone by love. Love reveals the truth of all things. <br><br>If we live the Gospel enough to possess the 'love of God' we can discern who else does too. If we don't possess such love we will be easily deceived by those who say they have it but really don't.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-17560637025525817672012-07-28T17:17:47.316-07:002012-07-28T17:17:47.316-07:00According to some members understanding apostasy o...According to some members understanding apostasy on a large scale in the church is a thing of the past. We only read about that stuff in the scriptures. It could never happen today right? Realizing that apostasy could be coming to a theater near you someday can keep you focused on following the teachings of Jesus Christ because there you can never go wrong.<br><br>A comment on the tree of life. If a person in gospel doctrine last week would have read 1 Nephi 11:22 and 25 she would have known what the tree of life represented. She said the gospel. I raised my hand and said it's actually the love of God. It was blown off like it didn't make a difference but it does. The rod is the gospel in the dream/vision and for good reason. The studying and living of the gospel of Jesus Christ can help someone to develop the love of God by helping them to be exposed to it. Paul spoke of this gift as the crowning most precious gift we could obtain. I could attend every sacrament meeting, attend the temple every day, pay my tithing and do everything on the Mormon checklist of the appearance of righteousness, but if I do not possess the love of God in me, all I've done is worthless. If we really want to get this work right, our motives need to be steered by the love of God. Plus, I respond more to love than a sales pitch. Questions about that last sentence anyone?<br><br>BryanBryan Peiferhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09058595383969894704noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-2637285179021803472012-07-26T11:50:39.341-07:002012-07-26T11:50:39.341-07:00Very interesting comments here about polygamy. If ...Very interesting comments here about polygamy. If I may add some of my own:<br><br>-there are three distinct times that the Lord has peopled (an area of) the earth for his covenant people, with three patriarchs/prophets that we are told about in the scriptures which are Adam, Noah and Lehi. It's also a distinction that none of them had more than one wife. In addition, we are told that Nephi and Ishmael and others all took one wife.<br><br>- Further, D&C49:16 Wherefore, it is lawful that he should have one wife, and they twain shall be one flesh, and all this that the earth might answer the end of its creation;<br><br>-And D&C 42: 22 Thou shalt love thy wife with all thy heart, and shalt cleave unto her and none else.<br><br>-and of course the original D&C 101, voted on by common consent, then wilfully removed by Brigham Young, ". . . Inasmuch as this church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication and polygamy: we declare that we believe that one man should have one wife: and one woman, but one husband, except in the case of death, when either is at liberty to marry again."<br><br>-in addition, apart from D&C 132 we are specifically told in Jacob 3:5 about the Lamanites that 'they have not forgotten the commandment of the Lord, which was given unto our father—that they should have save it were one wife' after the Nephites were told this as well in Jacob 2:27 'Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any a man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;' <br><br>-Finally, few verses later state 'For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up a seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.' May I ask if there are any scriptures where the Lord actually commanded Abraham, Jacob etc? I personally haven't come across them but as always I am open to everything. <br><br>Nothing scares me or makes me uncomfortable anymore in Mormonism. I agree with Rock that Mormonism at it's purest level is simply breathtaking in what it purports to be. In fact, after reading so much on it all (though barely scratching the surface), both Pro-Mormon and Anti-Mormon (just to be balanced and open), the Spirit I feel with the Book of Mormon is undeniable. I am in awe, more than ever. It simply makes no difference to me what I hear- I welcome truth and embrace its many faces- but, what the Lord and His Spirit have testified to me about His Son, His scriptures and His Annointed Prophet of the Restoration, is something, like even the obsessive Anti-Mormons cannot do, leave aside and move on. It has been so powerful in my life.<br><br>One thing for sure that keeps getting stronger within me is that Joseph Smith keeps getting vindicated with each passing year. I believe what he said, and believe he wasn't perfect. And although neither camp is ever likely to change horses in the middle of the stream on this polygamy issue, I believe he was not guilty of nor taught polygamy. If I am wrong, no problem. I won't have a problem accepting it if and when the Spirit tells me otherwise. Truth, the Lord's truth, is more important to me.<br><br>In the end, all this debate on things Mormonism, and it's controversial issues, and it's great theology (I listened to Paul Toscano's 3 hour or so interview on youtube- completely fascinating, whilst being laughed at some of his antics, saddened at his present state. But when he gives his feelings on 'hope' and on Jesus, I was deeply, deeply touched)- I truly feel in the end that none of it matters to the Lord outside of his two great commandments. It's all about LOVE...Fusionnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-32901337251076755932012-07-26T11:48:57.352-07:002012-07-26T11:48:57.352-07:00Very interesting comments here about polygamy. If ...Very interesting comments here about polygamy. If I may add some of my own:<br><br>-there are three distinct times that the Lord has peopled (an area of) the earth for his covenant people, with three patriarchs/prophets that we are told about in the scriptures which are Adam, Noah and Lehi. It's also a distinction that none of them had more than one wife. In addition, we are told that Nephi and Ishmael and others all took one wife.<br><br>- Further, D&C49:16 Wherefore, it is lawful that he should have one wife, and they twain shall be one flesh, and all this that the earth might answer the end of its creation;<br><br>-And D&C 42: 22 Thou shalt love thy wife with all thy heart, and shalt cleave unto her and none else.<br><br>-and of course the original D&C 101, voted on by common consent, then wilfully removed by Brigham Young, ". . . Inasmuch as this church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication and polygamy: we declare that we believe that one man should have one wife: and one woman, but one husband, except in the case of death, when either is at liberty to marry again."<br><br>-in addition, apart from D&C 132 we are specifically told in Jacob 3:5 about the Lamanites that 'they have not forgotten the commandment of the Lord, which was given unto our father—that they should have save it were one wife' after the Nephites were told this as well in Jacob 2:27 'Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any a man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;' <br><br>-Finally, few verses later state 'For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up a seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.' May I ask if there are any scriptures where the Lord actually commanded Abraham, Jacob etc? I personally haven't come across them but as always I am open to everything. <br><br>Nothing scares me or makes me uncomfortable anymore in Mormonism. I agree with Rock that Mormonism at it's purest level is simply breathtaking in what it purports to be. In fact, after reading so much on it all (though barely scratching the surface), both Pro-Mormon and Anti-Mormon (just to be balanced and open), the Spirit I feel with the Book of Mormon is undeniable. I am in awe, more than ever. It simply makes no difference to me what I hear- I welcome truth and embrace its many faces- but, what the Lord and His Spirit have testified to me about His Son, His scriptures and His Annointed Prophet of the Restoration, is something, like even the obsessive Anti-Mormons cannot do, leave aside and move on. It has been so powerful in my life.<br><br>One thing for sure that keeps getting stronger within me is that Joseph Smith keeps getting vindicated with each passing year. I believe what he said, and believe he wasn't perfect. And although neither camp is ever likely to change horses in the middle of the stream on this polygamy issue, I believe he was not guilty of nor taught polygamy. If I am wrong, no problem. I won't have a problem accepting it if and when the Spirit tells me otherwise. Truth, the Lord's truth, is more important to me.<br><br>In the end, all this debate on things Mormonism, and it's controversial issues, and it's great theology (I listened to Paul Toscano's 3 hour or so interview on youtube- completely fascinating, whilst being laughed at some of his antics, saddened at his present state. But when he gives his feelings on 'hope' and on Jesus, I was deeply, deeply touched)- I truly feel in the end that none of it matters to the Lord outside of his two great commandments. It's all about LOVE...Fusionnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-68820122334040453932012-07-25T09:55:52.448-07:002012-07-25T09:55:52.448-07:00Ditto to what Rock just said. Just because Joseph ...Ditto to what Rock just said. <br><br>Just because Joseph Smith was a true prophet and translated the Book of Mormon doesn't mean that Brigham Young and those after him were true prophets. <br><br>BY and his successors up to today, preached and preach opposite doctrine to what Joseph Smith and the BoM taught, and thus they all proved/prove themselves to be false prophets preaching false and contrary doctrines.<br><br>The restored church fell into a deep latter day apostasy after Joseph's death, just like the BoM predicted the Holy Church of God would do. This apostasy is very apparent today, everyone, except a few has been corrupted and deceived to support and do evil because of false prophets and false doctrines that abound in the church today.<br><br>The righteous must now wait for Christ and Joseph to return to the earth and re-establish his true church upon the earth, minus the abominable doctrines like polygamy, divorce, female inequality, male only priesthood and leadership, etc.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-4544040627470185832012-07-24T16:35:05.010-07:002012-07-24T16:35:05.010-07:00Not sure I'm following your line of thinking, ...Not sure I'm following your line of thinking, Weston. Are you saying that by accepting that Joseph Smith had gold plates, we are obligated to blindly accept everything that came after Joseph Smith? Then why are you not a follower of the Community of Christ or the Strangites? They accept that Joseph Smith had gold plates, so according to your logic, everything they teach is just as legitimate.<br><br>The reality is that when the gospel was restored through Joseph Smith, as a part of that restoration we received warnings that the Church would fall away from the prophet's original teachings. We can accept the validity of the Book of Mormon without presuming that every leader who succeeded Joseph Smith taught nothing but truth. Indeed, we have an obligation to question anything that contradicts the revelations received through our founding prophet.Alan Rock Watermanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-59299654249075483422012-07-24T13:32:19.883-07:002012-07-24T13:32:19.883-07:00These comments are all fine and dandy, however, mo...These comments are all fine and dandy, however, most of you are missing the big picture. Either Joseph Smith really had golden plates, or he didn't. He was either called to be a prophet, or he was a fraud. If he didn't have golden plates and the whole thing is a scam, then go and sin no more. Yes, leave, go away, go far far away, leave the church AND leave it alone. Yes, it's that simple.weston krogstadthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06759228799187904000noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-82867677768683852492012-07-24T11:31:32.723-07:002012-07-24T11:31:32.723-07:00Yes, Jon, section 104 relates to the United Order,...Yes, Jon, section 104 relates to the United Order, but as you know, the law of tithing was instituted because the Saints were not able to consecrate all they had to the church. The principle of accountability remains the same with tithing as it would have with the higher law, as evidenced by the fact that for 128 years the Church meticulously provided an accounting as to how much it had collected in tithing, and how that money was spent. Here is an example of how detailed the financial reporting was, as gleaned from the April 1951 conference report on expenditures from the previous year:<br><br>http://archive.org/stream/conferencereport1951a#page/n11/mode/2up<br><br>As you can see, it goes on for over 8 pages, but it is very meticulous, and verified by the Church auditors. They took this accounting very seriously.Alan Rock Watermanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-31214552907158972402012-07-22T17:58:03.244-07:002012-07-22T17:58:03.244-07:00No need to be afraid. You get to those settings th...No need to be afraid. You get to those settings through<br><br>File->Edit Chains->Add->Insert (all your settings)<br><br>Play with it a little to whatever you like. Sorry, I forgot to add that part, hope you haven't played with it yet. Then you can do <br>File->Apply Chain<br>And edit a bunch of MP3s all at once, it is great.<br><br>I just add the MP3s into my MP3 player with it set up like a thumb drive, so I don't know how you have your set up for your MP3.<br><br>Hope this helps for you too Toni! I'm a veracious podcast listener, sometimes to my families chagrin, so I have to back off sometimes, but it definitely helps to be able to speed them up!Jonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05518762624199557168noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-79870806162380830092012-07-22T17:49:15.326-07:002012-07-22T17:49:15.326-07:00Rock, doesn't that scripture refer to the UO? ...Rock, doesn't that scripture refer to the UO? Separate from the corporate church?Jonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05518762624199557168noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-70176205703997256162012-07-21T00:24:02.765-07:002012-07-21T00:24:02.765-07:00I got the attachment. Thanks, guys.I have Audacity...I got the attachment. Thanks, guys.<br><br>I have Audacity. I used it when I recorded stuff from a cassette tape to my computer (it's better than the default recorder). I didn't know I could use it to listen to audio online (or do you download it to your computer?). I'll have to explore it a little more. Thanks for the tip on speeding it up. That would save some time, which I'm interested in.<br><br>Forgive me if I don't make complete sense. It's late and I'm tired.Tonihttp://ljnsvoice.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.com