tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post2478573845530899976..comments2024-03-28T15:23:18.071-07:00Comments on Pure Mormonism: Living The Gospel, Or Living In Zombie Land?Alan Rock Watermanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comBlogger71125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-76924600838064928272013-03-23T10:12:28.347-07:002013-03-23T10:12:28.347-07:00Sorry to hear about your troubles. I think the old...Sorry to hear about your troubles. I think the old saying, "no good deed goes unpunished" would apply here.<br><br>I and my wife have run into similar situations. We have lived in eight different wards during the time we've been married. Some wards were better than others, however, pride seems to be a systemic problem. Maybe that's why Pres. Benson gave that talk on pride. Maybe that's why the Lord gave us the 121st Section of the Doctrine and Covenants, which says...<br><br>39. We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion.<br><br>I believe "almost all men" applies to women as well.Gary Huntnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-72957189349601914942013-02-16T00:59:17.133-08:002013-02-16T00:59:17.133-08:00I have to say in my ward I was treated horribly, a...I have to say in my ward I was treated horribly, as was the rest of my family when I was put in as Primary President. What the person said about those living the gospel and emulating Christ are treated awful is true where I live.<br>Upon moving to my husband's hometown to care for his parents I told my family we were going to make the effort to know our new ward. I am shy and socially inept, had a hard life. I would go up to members and introduce me and the family and boy, the looks I got - like I was an alien, or "I don't know you, get away" look or "why are you bothering me" look. At church functions people ignored us but I still went up to people just to say hello and I could see eyes roll. I wasn't trying to be a new BFF. I was practicing my religion.<br>As Primary Pres. I tried to turn things around for the better. The ward was awful. The kids out of control. I used different methods to get the kids interested like love, attention, less rigid, and using church approved materials. I was creative, I had control of rowdy kids in a good way. I got inactive people coming. After 6 months I was released, and the whole family was treated even worse than before. The Bishop's wife started awful rumors about me, the new Primary Presidency criticized everything I did. It gets worse but I won't take up space. So in my experience members don't like being shown up (even though that is not your purpose), at least where I live. I am very unhappy with the church but I go and ignore everyone. I have been beaten down.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-38319156588363608072012-12-12T22:57:17.947-08:002012-12-12T22:57:17.947-08:00Thank you for that, Kandee.Thank you for that, Kandee.Alan Rock Watermanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-47744489260835967632012-12-12T20:12:41.039-08:002012-12-12T20:12:41.039-08:00Eugene England's family has recently posted a ...Eugene England's family has recently posted a wonderful account between Elder McConkie and Brother England. It is worth reading. I never met Eugene England but his writings and talks have made a huge difference in my life. I am so grateful for his generous work. Kandee<br><br>http://www.eugeneengland.org/a-professor-and-apostle-correspond-eugene-england-and-bruce-r-mcconkie-on-the-nature-of-god<br>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-5122965665069451232012-07-13T03:40:05.790-07:002012-07-13T03:40:05.790-07:00Brendon,You can find discussions of this issue in ...Brendon,<br>You can find discussions of this issue in "David O. McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism," and Quinn's "The Mormon Hierarchy: Extension of Power."Alan Rock Watermanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-12521973323571529912012-07-12T19:30:28.197-07:002012-07-12T19:30:28.197-07:00So I am kind of late to this discussion, but I do ...So I am kind of late to this discussion, but I do have a question regarding the source when you talk about 1000+ errors in MoDo (I read a bit on my mission, and didn't feel good about it then, nice to see 14 years later I wasn't off base) Grad school and being loath to spread runours has resulted in me being a (preferrably primary) source hound. <br>Thanks, BrendonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-992159379391474902011-12-27T21:19:24.544-08:002011-12-27T21:19:24.544-08:00The way I understand the Heavenly Father/Jesus Chr...The way I understand the Heavenly Father/Jesus Christ relationship is this (and I may be wrong): <br><br>I repair equipment for a living. One of my best customers is a mid-sized lawn care and landscaping company. It is owned by a man about 62 years old. He's a good, honest, Christian man. However, he no longer runs the day-to-day operations. His son, Jr. (he has the same name) does. He's a great guy. When I first started doing work for them, the owner (Father) came to me with his son in tow and said: "Whatever my son asks you to do has already been approved by me. It's just as if I myself gave you the assignment." Two people, one purpose.<br><br>I know that sounds overly simplistic, but I have always been comfortable with the current doctrine of two separate beings, praying to the Father in the name of the Son.<br><br>If they were the same person, wouldn't the Lord have told Abraham that someone was going to kill him and command him to let him do it, instead of commanding him to sacrifice his son, Isaac?<br><br>Just a thought, for what it's worth.<br><br>ScottScotthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12685297695510718050noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-40940754658449123902011-12-12T13:54:01.681-08:002011-12-12T13:54:01.681-08:00Good question, Jon. It's been like that ever ...Good question, Jon. It's been like that ever since I was a deacon circa 1964. We would fan out with our trays and stand beside our assigned rows. We would wait as the kid assigned to the stand walked up and administered to the bishop. Only once the bishop had partaken did we turn and pass our trays into the row of pews.Alan Rock Watermanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-41558524699662788812011-12-12T09:48:02.204-08:002011-12-12T09:48:02.204-08:00So when did the tradition start of having the bish...So when did the tradition start of having the bishop partake of the sacrament first before the ward members?Jonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05518762624199557168noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-87738501040090718492011-10-17T06:11:44.136-07:002011-10-17T06:11:44.136-07:00Ryan,By the mid-twentieth century, the Brethren fe...Ryan,<br>By the mid-twentieth century, the Brethren felt it important to convey an image of complete unity, so if a GA happened to promote a false doctrine, no one spoke up with an alternate vision. This resulted in the GAs attaining near demigod status in the eyes of the members.Alan Rock Watermanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-17239641481251928742011-10-16T23:45:08.784-07:002011-10-16T23:45:08.784-07:00It's getting late and I'm sorry for not ta...It's getting late and I'm sorry for not taking the full deserved attention this entry deserves. Some key points of the calling of Elder McConkie to the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. This is a calling that has to be supported by the other members of the Quorum and First Presidency if I'm not mistaken.<br><br>With that being said at the time of Elder McConkie's calling to the Twelve Marion is in the first Presidency and Mark a senior member of the Twelve. If either of them disliked or believed that what Bruce did was wrong they would have said something wouldn't they have?<br><br>Also, among the 1,000+ errors that Mark found can we really say that they were ALL doctrinal errors? What was Mark's profession? He was an editor for The Deseret News. Who did Bruce publish his book with? It was with Bookcraft a struggling publishing company that didn't have a full time editor. It's possible that most, not all, of the errors in Bruce's work were editorial errors and not doctrinal errors.<br><br>Just some food for thought :)Ryannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-32975576823231272312011-06-23T15:03:59.271-07:002011-06-23T15:03:59.271-07:00Steve, we have only one Lord, and that is the God ...Steve, we have only one Lord, and that is the God of Israel, Jesus Christ, our just God and Savior. Jehovah is our Redeemer. He is Jesus Christ, mighty to save. Please review Isaiah if you are in any doubt as to this.<br><br>However, the term "Father" generally can apply to any male member of the Godhead, which includes Heavenly Father and the Holy Spirit.<br><br>I must point out here and emphasize that the term "Father" in scripture most often refers to Christ specifically. It can in a few places be interpreted as a general reference to "The Father," or the male members of the Godhead, but in nearly every case it is more appropriately a reference to the God of Israel: Jesus Christ.<br><br>Again, Jesus Christ is Jehovah. He is the Most High God. He is the God of our salvation. The other members of the Godhead assist him, but they are not the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The Lord our God is one Lord and his name is Jesus Christ.<br><br>P.S. Why don't you ask Jesus if he is the Father? Guess what? He is. He is the Everlasting Father and the Prince of Peace, the Mighty One of Jacob.whitehuskyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10462985530221490302noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-15542883098000013562011-06-09T12:57:08.708-07:002011-06-09T12:57:08.708-07:00whitehusky,As you can note above the Book of Mormo...whitehusky,<br><br>As you can note above the Book of Mormon identified Heavenly Father, Jesus and Heavenly Father/Jesus as the eternal Father.<br><br>D&C Section 110 might make one think that Jesus is Jehovah, but the preceding section has Joseph praying to the "owner" of the Kirtland Temple and addressing Him as Jehovah 4 times.<br><br>The New Testament and Psalms 110 tell us that Christ will sit on the right hand of Jehovah.<br><br>The temple endowment has a Jehovah character and I have heard explained that He is Jesus, the Savior of Adam and the Father of Adam.<br><br>Perhaps the best explanation I've heard is that the Father has placed His name on the Son. Thus it is entirely appropriate to address both of them as Jehovah.<br><br>One of many questions I'd like to ask Father.<br><br><br>SteveStevehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13745901786962474174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-18626297241253840522011-06-09T11:33:59.146-07:002011-06-09T11:33:59.146-07:00Steve and Dave, the Lord himself is the Eternal Fa...Steve and Dave, the Lord himself is the Eternal Father. The Lamb of God is our Everlasting God. That's what the scriptures say. Jesus Christ is Lord, and Israel has but one Lord.<br><br>But if you go away from the scriptures and shut out the testimony of the Holy Spirit, you will be led down the paths of blasphemy that relegate Jesus Christ to some kind of creation, rather than Almighty Creator.<br><br>I'm just disgusted with Mormons who don't understand that Jesus Christ is Jehovah. Oh, they'll parrot out things about his being Jehovah, but then they have NO idea that this makes him the Father of Israel and the Most High God. They insist we do not worship Christ alone, but that we're worshiping all members of the Godhead.<br><br>No, we worship Christ the Lord. Sure, we respect and honor members of the Godhead. But Christ alone is the God of our Salvation. He's the Great I AM. He's the God we pray to and worship.<br><br>If not, we might as well just go out and join the JWs who deny Christ is God.whitehuskyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10462985530221490302noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-32617958361897334182011-05-17T21:24:28.026-07:002011-05-17T21:24:28.026-07:00Steve,In 1837 the words "the Son of" wer...Steve,<br><br>In 1837 the words "the Son of" were inserted into every reference of "the Eternal Father" during Nephi's vision. The original BoM also prophesied that plain and precious truths would be removed from both the Bible and BoM. The identity of God is the plan and precious truth that was removed.Dave P.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-62555401614849380662011-05-17T15:58:01.958-07:002011-05-17T15:58:01.958-07:00Husky,What you wrote prompted me to search for &qu...Husky,<br><br>What you wrote prompted me to search for "eternal father" on lds.org. The 1st hits in the Book of Mormon follow. They would make a good meditation session. Or more than 1.<br><br>Sometimes we think we understand things only to discover that we need some more learning.<br><br><br>Steve<br><br>---<br><br><br>Alma 11<br> 38 Now Zeezrom saith again unto him: Is the Son of God the very <b>Eternal Father</b>?<br> 39 And Amulek said unto him: Yea, he is the very <b>Eternal Father</b> of heaven and of earth, and all things which in them are; he is the beginning and the end, the first and the last;<br><br>===<br><br>Mosiah 16<br> 15 Teach them that redemption cometh through Christ the Lord, who is the very <b>Eternal Father</b>. Amen.<br><br>===<br><br>Mosiah 15<br> 2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son—<br> 3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—<br> 4 And <b>they</b> are one God, yea, the very <b>Eternal Father</b> of heaven and of earth.<br><br>===<br><br>1 Nephi 11<br> 21 And the angel said unto me: Behold the Lamb of God, yea, even the Son of the <b>Eternal Father</b>! Knowest thou the meaning of the tree which thy father saw?<br><br>===<br><br>Moroni 4<br> 3 O God, the <b>Eternal Father</b>, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this bread to the souls of all those who partake of it; that they may eat in remembrance of the body of thy Son, and witness unto thee, O God, the <b>Eternal Father</b>, that they are willing to take upon them the name of thy Son, and always remember him, and keep his commandments which he hath given them, that they may always have his Spirit to be with them. Amen.<br><br>===<br><br>Moroni 5<br><br> 2 O God, the <b>Eternal Father</b>, we ask thee, in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this wine to the souls of all those who drink of it, that they may do it in remembrance of the blood of thy Son, which was shed for them; that they may witness unto thee, O God, the <b>Eternal Father</b>, that they do always remember him, that they may have his Spirit to be with them. Amen.Stevehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13745901786962474174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-7933282757375722542011-05-17T15:34:47.992-07:002011-05-17T15:34:47.992-07:00I'm not very popular on blogs usually because ...I'm not very popular on blogs usually because I say that Jesus Christ is the Almighty God. You'd be surprised at how many Mormons throw fits in objection to this. They want Heavenly Father to be the Almighty God. They want Heavenly Father to be the only Father. They want Heavenly Father to be the Lord.<br><br>Basically, they just want to be too lazy to know the Lord God Jesus Christ for themselves, that he is our Eternal Father and God. [Mosiah 16:15]<br><br>You could even say that they are worshiping a false God, since Heavenly Father is not our Redeemer, nor does he place himself in Christ's stead as our God. It's false tradition that does that.<br><br>It's not just embarrassing, but also blasphemous, to hear a Mormon say that Christ is not our Lord and that another member of the Godhead holds that position.whitehuskyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10462985530221490302noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-18162656172577092672011-05-10T15:44:21.870-07:002011-05-10T15:44:21.870-07:00I've pretty much had it with the Mormons who f...I've pretty much had it with the Mormons who fall back on what they call "Mormon" doctrine while going directly against the scriptures. I'm sorry. Since when did they speak for Mormon, anyway? Mormon knew perfectly well that Jesus is the Lord God of Israel, not some silly spirit child who had to "progress" into Godhood. No wonder other Christians think Mormons are following after some strange gospel. They are.doyle_meganhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14670666670201894017noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-61024482778427255612011-03-11T15:54:54.030-08:002011-03-11T15:54:54.030-08:00I once forked up the money for satellite TV just t...I once forked up the money for satellite TV just to get the BYU station. Imagine my surprise when the devotional speakers were introduced by a long list of supposed accomplishments, exactly as is done in the world. It really put me off that the church would act that way, a way could be called corporate.<br><br>It seems to me that many Mormons want the gospel to be corporate as well.<br><br>Online I have come into conflict with the zombie thinkers who claim to be Mormon but who will not recognize that we worship Jesus Christ. They say that LDS doctrine says we do not even pray to the Lord Jesus Christ. When I urged them to seek the guidance of the Spirit and listen to the Lord on whether he was, indeed, Jesus Christ, and the head of the church, even the Most High God, they quoted McConkie saying things about how having a personal relationship with Christ was not according to the approved pattern. (Yikes!) When I pointed out that in the scriptures we are commanded to pray to the Lord without ceasing, they told me it's really Heavenly Father who is the Lord. (Double yikes!)<br><br>These supposed Mormons claimed I was not a Mormon because I was quoting scripture that proved them wrong:<br><br>"Yea, we have reason to praise him forever, for he is the Most High God, and has loosed our brethren from the chains of hell ... Therefore, let us glory, yea, we will glory in the Lord; yea, we will rejoice, for our joy is full; yea, we will praise our God forever..." (Alma 26:14,16)<br><br>When confronted with such scriptures, these zombie Mormons said that modern-day revelation trumps scripture.<br><br>No it doesn't. Modern-day revelation agrees with scripture. It doesn't go against it at all. Anyone who thinks the Lord will contradict his own word had got some heavy-duty repenting to do. <br><br>And Mormons who say that Jesus Christ is not God Almighty don't even know their own God.whitehuskyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10462985530221490302noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-5049792179715351582011-03-07T15:03:55.215-08:002011-03-07T15:03:55.215-08:00@Alan: I wouldn't say that the modern LDS Chur...@Alan: I wouldn't say that the modern LDS Church has lost those fundamentals. In fact, nowadays, I would say they've made more of a return to them rather than leaping away from such. I'm not Mormon myself, but living in a Mormon culture has exposed me to such and I can say this from an honest outlook.LDS Scriptures for the Modern Manhttp://standardworks.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-37451778569453644542011-03-01T15:53:02.327-08:002011-03-01T15:53:02.327-08:00Guy Noir,Well, of course, Pure Mormonism IS pure C...Guy Noir,<br>Well, of course, Pure Mormonism IS pure Christianity, with the addition of many lost fundamental truths. Sadly, the modern Corporate LDS Church appear to have itself forgotten those lost fundamentals.Alan Rock Watermanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-75262369649788949752011-03-01T14:45:17.215-08:002011-03-01T14:45:17.215-08:00these ALL underscore one Truth:Living LDS is befud...these ALL underscore one Truth:<br><br>Living LDS is befuddled by too many detours & details!<br> ARW speaks of 'Pure Mormonism'...<br><br>How About... "Pure Christianity"?<br><br><br>just sayin'Guy Noir, Private Eyenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-87053666296485599812010-12-06T14:21:44.740-08:002010-12-06T14:21:44.740-08:00Jonas:I listened to the Shack and actually didn...Jonas:<br><br>I listened to the Shack and actually didn't like it near as much as I liked some of the books written by one of the contributers to that book. Though, to be fair, the Shack was very, very good.<br><br>Go here: He Loves Me! and So You Don't Want to Go to Church Anymore were fantastic reads, especially the latter one.<br><br>http://www.jakecolsen.com/Tomhttp://truthmarche.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-24080177398733317222010-11-03T00:06:39.771-07:002010-11-03T00:06:39.771-07:00The New International version of the Bible - Matth...The New International version of the Bible - Matthew 6.<br><br> 24 “No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money."Emily A. W.http://www.blogger.com/profile/17643608048915245152noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-46434407043851493042010-11-02T15:48:33.576-07:002010-11-02T15:48:33.576-07:00I find it very interesting that the church is so S...I find it very interesting that the church is so SO insistent in how their missionaries look and then are willing to spend a whole lot of PR $$$ to put the image (the very ad you chose to put in your blog) that shows a 30-something man wearing thong underwear -- no mind you, I've heard the apologist's arguments as to why that isn't a thong that Mormon is wearing -- but seriously do try to tell me the PR group didn't intentionally leave in those slight peaks after untold review of their "message" to the world ... I'm surprised I'm the first to comment on it here.weedernoreply@blogger.com