tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post2062776821184356854..comments2024-03-28T15:23:18.071-07:00Comments on Pure Mormonism: Why I'm Abandoning PolygamyAlan Rock Watermanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comBlogger422125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-2225446611448659232021-05-12T11:05:06.926-07:002021-05-12T11:05:06.926-07:00Brigham Young was a scoundrel that collected bount...Brigham Young was a scoundrel that collected bounty money placed on both Joseph and Hyrum’s head by some very corrupt senators. Think John Quincy Adams as well. A nasty man who stole the presidential election from Andrew Jackson in 1824.Sisteroldmacdonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08817628493041561812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-21085847139293791352021-05-12T11:05:03.636-07:002021-05-12T11:05:03.636-07:00Brigham Young was a scoundrel that collected bount...Brigham Young was a scoundrel that collected bounty money placed on both Joseph and Hyrum’s head by some very corrupt senators. Think John Quincy Adams as well. A nasty man who stole the presidential election from Andrew Jackson in 1824.Sisteroldmacdonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08817628493041561812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-2906793494648142522021-05-12T11:04:59.608-07:002021-05-12T11:04:59.608-07:00Brigham Young was a scoundrel that collected bount...Brigham Young was a scoundrel that collected bounty money placed on both Joseph and Hyrum’s head by some very corrupt senators. Think John Quincy Adams as well. A nasty man who stole the presidential election from Andrew Jackson in 1824.Sisteroldmacdonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08817628493041561812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-22538298737798412462021-05-12T11:04:05.153-07:002021-05-12T11:04:05.153-07:00Brigham Young was a scoundrel that collected bount...Brigham Young was a scoundrel that collected bounty money placed on both Joseph and Hyrum’s head by some very corrupt senators. Think John Quincy Adams as well. A nasty man who stole the presidential election from Andrew Jackson in 1824.Sisteroldmacdonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08817628493041561812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-28361058970761318842019-02-05T19:24:19.448-08:002019-02-05T19:24:19.448-08:00Don’t you think what you call biblical polygamy co...Don’t you think what you call biblical polygamy could have also have just been a part of the culture, much as it is today in many parts of the world? I don’t think God told Solomon to takeover 1000 wives and 600 concubines and He didn’t tell David to take over 400 wives and many concubines. Women were men’s property in these times andGod didn’t say that was right either. One other thing I want to put down in writing, some people ask if we think there is only one Mother in heaven. I ask, why not? Do you think children are made the same way there as here? I don’t think so. Thinking is flawed if one thinks it only takes one male but many females-to make and raise babies in heaven. I, for one, think fathers are very important, as important as mothers, and need to be present for their offspring. And I’m sure there is a much more efficient way of birthing than the earthly way. Remember, Gods ways are not our ways and our ways Gods ways?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02316834199924351062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-24943067769727023802019-02-05T18:12:54.696-08:002019-02-05T18:12:54.696-08:00We do need to question in that we get our own test...We do need to question in that we get our own testimony and don’t rely on someone else. Having said that, I’m agree with you that I believe the author did not get it right in this essay.. I’ve read his works and I’ve studied the other side and then I’ve done it’s of studying and prayer. This coming from a lady that would rather be single than live in polygamy, I think Steve Barnes has made weak arguments for something he wants to be true. See, I didn’t pray for what I wanted to be true, I prayed for the truth. But thanks for making me work for that answer Mr. Barnes.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02316834199924351062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-84230847264467194992017-10-15T12:20:17.055-07:002017-10-15T12:20:17.055-07:00I was glad to see this website. For years my wife ...<br />I was glad to see this website. For years my wife and I have questioned "polygamy" as to whether it was ever a part of the reorganized church. It doesn't appear to be part of the church that Christ organized when he was on the earth. He stated (paraphrased) we should cleave unto our spouses and none else. He also said that to look upon another woman other than our wives is committing adultery in our hearts. I don't see how anyone could find a second wife without violating both of these commandments by Jesus Christ himself. In the D & C it says that if a man lust after another woman, he shall not have the spirit of the Holy Ghost. In my mind, any church leader, who has lusted after or sought after another woman to make her his polygamous wife, could not have possibly had the spirit of the Holy Ghost and could not therefore be a prophet, seer, or revelator. I have also verified that Joseph Smith has never signed any document whether in the church or in any other archive, that polygamy or his participation in it, is part of the restored church. There are not any records anywhere showing that he married anyone but Emma except those records that were made after his death. <br /><br />I have served in several church leadership positions, and I admit that I may have thought of church leaders including myself as being more special than others. I have never thought about that as being inicuous or part of iniquity. However, what you have said does make sense. I have thought about how many times the Book of Mormon tells us about leaders who labored for their own support. I don't feel in my heart that it is ever right for anyone to live off the labors of others, which is what our church leaders are doing. I have verified that many of our leaders who were only earning a meager living before being called to church leadership, now have net worths of several million dollars. Either they have concentrated on pursuits other than magnifying and promoting the gospel or they have been given large endowments by way of their position. In my heart that does not seem right that any tithing money should be used in this manner whether it comes indirectly from church investments that were purchased from tithing or directly from tithing itself. <br /><br />In regards to tithing keeping us from the church or the temple. The very fact that tithing does not keep investigators from entering a church house that they have not contributed tithing to, neither should it keep honest seekers of the Lord out of the temple. The very idea that we the poor and the needy can be kept out of the temple because of we have not paid tithes to the church makes our church seem like a Ramiumptom type of organization that is mentioned in the Book of Mormon. Should we have to prove that we have paid the money in order to enter the temple, which is pay to participate activity. Should our bishops and stake presidents become like money changers to determine who whould enter the temple, particularly as tithing is supposed to be between us and the Lord. Incidentally, James E Talmadge in his tithing phamplet along with section 119 of the D & C, states that tithing is to be paid on our surplus income and not our gross. I have wondered about how I can do that. For you to mention that the money could be designathed as "Fast Offerings" so that it does fulfill the commandment in Mathew 25, was a good answer. However, I wonder if since the fast offering money now goes directly to SLC, whether or not that is even safe. I do however, like the Liahona organization for youth. In anycase, as a missionary, I found that many investigators were gungho about the church until they heard about tithing. It truly does keep people out of the church, which is not what I believe God and Jesus Christ would condone.<br />Thanks for your website and comments – you are much like Abinadi<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12906641185013325489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-17887099861232861602017-10-15T11:59:50.694-07:002017-10-15T11:59:50.694-07:00I was glad to see this website. For years my wife...I was glad to see this website. For years my wife and I have questioned "polygamy" as to whether it was ever a part of the reorganized church. It doesn't appear to be part of the church that Christ organized when he was on the earth. He stated (paraphrased) we should cleave unto our spouses and none else. He also said that to look upon another woman other than our wives is committing adultery in our hearts. I don't see how anyone could find a second wife without violating both of these commands by Jesus Christ himself. In the D & C it says that if a man lust after another woman, he shall not have the spirit of the Holy Ghost. In my mind, any church leader, who has lusted after or sought after another woman to make her his wife, could not have possibly had the spirit of the Holy Ghost and could not therefore be a prophet, seer, or revelator. <br /><br />I have served in several church leadership positions, and I admit that I may have thought of church leaders including myself as being more special than others. I have never thought about that as being inicuous or part of iniquity. However, what you have said does make sense. I have thought about how many times the Book of Mormon tells us about leaders who labored for their own support. I don't feel in my heart that it is ever right for anyone to live off the labors of others, which is what our church leaders are doing. I have verified that many of our leaders who were only earning a meager living before being called to church leadership, now have net worths of several million dollars. Either they have concentrated on per suits other than magnifying and promoting the gospel or they have been given large endowments by way of their position. In my heart that does not seem right that any tithing money should be used in this manner whether it comes indirectly from church investments that were purchased from tithing or directly from tithing itself. <br /><br />In regards to tithing keeping us from the church or the temple. The very fact that tithing does not keep investigators from entering a church house that they have not contributed tithing to, neither should it keep honest seekers of the Lord out of the temple. The very idea that we the poor and the needy can be kept out of the temple because of we have not paid tithes to the church makes our church seem like a Ramiumptom type of organization that is mentioned in the Book of Mormon. Incidentally, James E Talmadge in his tithing phamplet along with section 119 of the D & C, states that tithing is to be paid on our surplus income and our gross. I have wondered about how I can do that. For you to mention that the money could be designathed as "Fast Offerings" so that it does fulfill the commandment in Mathew 25, was a good answer. However, I wonder if since the fast offering money now goes directly to SLC, whether or not that is even safe. I do however, like the Liahona organization for youth. <br /><br />Thank you for being a modern day Abinadi.<br /><br /> <br /><br /><br />Send your thoughts to: run4kids@gmail.com<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12906641185013325489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-73792447429423515472017-07-29T12:38:41.860-07:002017-07-29T12:38:41.860-07:00It's been very interesting to me as I've c...It's been very interesting to me as I've come to understand and believe that Joseph was, in fact, monogamous, just how difficult it is for people to accept. Well, actually it isn't -- if that falls apart, so do so many other things.<br /><br />I've had many conversations with people in recent years in which they've born solemn testimony that polygamy is a true doctrine, that Brigham appeared as Joseph, that God called Brigham Young as a prophet, that Brother Thomas is God's "true prophet" on the earth today despite an ounce of evidence to support the claim. Truly strange days. <br /><br />I try to be patient and ask questions as to how they arrived at the conclusion, encouraging critical thought instead of blind allegiance. But almost invariably it circles back to "follow the prophet" and "perfect obedience" because that's what they've been taught. <br /><br />It's a difficult process. <br /><br />I keep trying, however, because the capital-T Truth is a powerful narcotic. Once you get a taste of pure information/revelation and begin to commune with the Holy Spirit, there's nothing that can compare to it. I have a little bit of an understanding of what so many BOM prophets felt after their conversions. All they wanted was to share with everyone what they had experienced--to know Jesus, experience His love and mercy. <br /><br />To be freed from the chains of false doctrine and false tradition is truly liberating. matt lohrkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05159067604487338024noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-52209370993878873992017-06-17T17:59:09.515-07:002017-06-17T17:59:09.515-07:00I think the Lord is waiting on us, on the world or...I think the Lord is waiting on us, on the world or anyone to keep his commandments. Why would God give more enlightenment if people or so called prophets don't even keep the commandments he already gave us? <br /><br />I don't believe the Lord ever wanted Joseph to start a physical church in the 1st place, let alone put it 1st in his life before his wife and children's needs and welfare and cause them so much suffering. Family comes 1st, especially a spouse. Thus Joseph could have rightly avoided most of what happened to him. <br /><br />If Joseph was so concerned with other's spiritual welfare he should have just taught the commandments of Christ, as Christ intended so called prophets to do, instead of his own contrary commandments and scriptures. <br /><br />For until we can find angels to lead physical churches, all churches will always preach and practice part truth and part error, which will just lead people astray, no matter how sincere the leaders are or how sure they think they are right or inspired or chosen. <br />Lillihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06093952277840534639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-16316070454405690462017-06-15T17:52:15.807-07:002017-06-15T17:52:15.807-07:00DeeLynn,
The whole reason for Joseph coming back ...DeeLynn,<br /><br />The whole reason for Joseph coming back and turning himself in was because the state threatened to destroy Nauvoo and everyone in it unless he did so. Joseph could have taken the escape route the Lord dropped in his lap, but how could he leave them to die? The fact is we don't know what he was thinking, and we don't know what the Lord's intentions were for him. We don't know if the Lord's instruction for him to run to the Rocky Mountains was actually meant for him to leave, or if it was just to put him in a place to make a decision. The Lord may have spoken more to him that we just don't know about. I realize you can't prove a negative, but it just doesn't make sense.<br /><br />After all Joseph had done and suffered, after all the chastisement and growing he endured, and all the hard choices he'd made, wouldn't it be EASY for him to obey the Lord's instruction to run away and save his own life? The idea that he disobeyed the Lord in order to sacrifice his life - widowing his wife, orphaning his children, and leaving the church leaderless - makes no sense. <br /><br />Still, I wish he had/could have run away, and distanced himself from BY, as you outlined. I think he'd already tried to distance himself from the polygamists, but apparently enough people didn't want to hear it. We know from history that rejected prophets don't stick around, but we also know that the Lord God will do nothing, unless he reveals his secrets to his servants, the prophets. Regardless of what happened in the last weeks of Joseph's life, how much longer do we have to wait before the Lord calls someone to set us straight? The last great apostasy lasted 1800 years.Shaunhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14191966269391321676noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-59559299785336162122017-06-11T13:03:17.522-07:002017-06-11T13:03:17.522-07:00I don't see how Joseph's death saved or he...I don't see how Joseph's death saved or helped 'his people' or 'the church', for it just made easy for BY & Co. to advance their new doctrines and take over the church and people. <br /><br />Whereas, if JS had lived, even out west, he could have at least publicly denounced BY and sent warning to the church (once again) about not following those who promoted polygamy, etc. Those who truly believed in Joseph and were against polygamy could have eventually followed Joseph out west later on, and/or would have at least known to not fall for BY & his polygamy. Without a public declaration against BY by JS many people easily fell for BY and his doctrines.<br /><br />For after JS died, his faithful followers left the Church anyway and most moved away to continue following Joseph's teachings on their own without him. <br /><br />I believe God wanted Joseph to go west and to then call for his family to join him later and anyone else who wanted to. <br /><br />And the Great Apostasy has been happening since the days of Adam, few even in Christ's day even lived Christ's teachings, and few if any even in Joseph's day lived them, including JS. What person or so called prophet has ever lived the real teachings of Christ? Except maybe John the Baptist. <br /><br />I just wonder why Joseph believed Abraham was a prophet if JS understood that polygamy was wrong in every instance. (Any thoughts on that Rock?) God is either fickle in his doctrines (and thus Christ taught falsehoods) or truth never changes. <br /><br />I believe truth is eternal. Right & wrong never change, and are the eternal principles of heaven. Adam had to keep the same commandments as we do today, the one's Christ taught, which were against all polygamy. God has never given a pass for polygamy, serial or concurrent, especially not for prophets, who Christ taught have to keep his commandments (of eternal monogamy) to even prove they are true prophets. Lillihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06093952277840534639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-56120526099434818852017-06-06T18:37:00.522-07:002017-06-06T18:37:00.522-07:00I did find the place in History of the Church wher...I did find the place in History of the Church where Joseph is told to go to the Rockies to save his life, and I read about how everyone - including Emma - begged him to come back and turn himself in. It sounded like he was leaving on his own though - there was no mention of him asking the Saints to follow him. Not only is there no mention of him inviting them, who in their right mind would have thought, "Hey, even though Brother Joseph is trying to be as inconspicuous as possible as he flees from the authorities, and even though he hasn't told us we should go with him, and even though the temple isn't finished, and even though we've been displaced by mobs like, a thousand times already, let's evacuate the entire city to go follow him!"? I'm not sure it is "doubtless" that Joseph expected the Saints to join him there - maybe eventually, but there wasn't time for "eventually" in this case.<br /><br />I'm not entirely closed to the possibility that Joseph made the wrong decision to go to Carthage, but it's hard to swallow. How then, did he "have a conscience void of offense towards God and towards all men"? Is it not possible that the Lord wanted Joseph to make this decision? Joseph was not forced into Carthage. He wasn't hijacked or kidnapped. The Lord gave him a way out, and Joseph chose to save his people rather than save himself? I think such a choice would have given him great peace - as awful as his death was, it was also a beautiful gift from God to go out the way he did.<br /><br />Regardless...<br /><br />Is that it then? Is it "The Great Apostasy" all over again? Don't misunderstand - I'm not defending Brigham Young et al - but I thought that this was the dispensation of the fullness of times. I thought that the priesthood authority would never again be taken from the earth (John the Baptist's words). What are we waiting for now? Another First Vision? Shaunhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14191966269391321676noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-67682225873678540452017-06-06T10:08:17.115-07:002017-06-06T10:08:17.115-07:00Why did God abandon the church to corruption, Shau...Why did God abandon the church to corruption, Shaun? Because he would not force the saints into obedience. <br /><br />Joseph Smith frequently expressed frustration at not being able to get the saints to accept the simple things of God. Instead, they wanted to choose their own way. This is why the Lord himself abandoned the Church from medieval times onward, although he still operated in the lives and hearts of individuals, as he still does today even though the institution is corrupted.<br /><br />Doubtless Joseph expected the saints to join him in the Rockies; he was not planning to abandon them. It was his own disobedience that cost him his life. Had he obeyed god and fled for safety, the church might have had hope of turning around. But a lot of the blame can be placed on his friends who were concerned that his leaving would be seen as cowardice.<br /><br />Lesson: you can't please everybody, so you may as well just try to please God.Alan Rock Watermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-63796208705997790902017-06-02T09:01:15.798-07:002017-06-02T09:01:15.798-07:00Rock,
It's been a long time since anyone comm...Rock,<br /><br />It's been a long time since anyone commented here, but I just want to say thanks for the blog post, and thanks to everyone for the enormous discussion. I'd read this post before, but not the comments.<br /><br />This is the first I've heard of JS being told (commanded? are we sure it was a command and not just a "here's what you do if you want to live"?) to flee Nauvoo and "head for the Rockies." I'd be very interested in a post about that, especially if it treated the question of why-oh-why did Joseph leave the church to become what it became: leaderless and full of corruption (apparently). <br /><br />Because as hard as it's been to accept, I can accept that Brigham et al messed everything up. But if JS knew about all the corruption, why did he abandon us to it? Shaunhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14191966269391321676noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-87351256811669331302017-04-20T00:25:29.852-07:002017-04-20T00:25:29.852-07:00Actually, Christ taught that the only sure way to ...Actually, Christ taught that the only sure way to identify a 'true' prophet or disciple was by if they kept all of his commandments (as found in the NT), not by whether they are transfigured, or can do miracles, or claim visions, or produce so called scriptures, or not even if you get warm fuzzies after praying about them or their writings or if you agree with them and like the sound of their doctrines. <br /><br />And since Christ (as did Joseph Smith all his life) taught that polygamy is always and forever against God's laws, and thus it's impossible that anyone who believes in or lives polygamy could be a true prophet. <br /><br />Christ said the greatest prophet was John the Baptist, who also preached against polygamy. So though Joseph didn't pass the 'true prophet' test (for he didn't keep all of Christ's commandments), at least he continually preached against and probably didn't live polygamy, as Brigham would want us to believe. Even false prophets teach a lot of truths, mixed in with their falsehoods. <br /><br />But a person's beliefs and actions reveals their true character. Lillihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06093952277840534639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-26342220324351695112017-02-14T07:44:55.282-08:002017-02-14T07:44:55.282-08:00This post makes a big mistake: confusing what Jose...This post makes a big mistake: confusing what Joseph Smith called the 'Celestial order of marriage' and what the world called 'polygamy'. Higbee, Bennett, and others attempted to pervert this law of celestial marriage and Joseph <em>did indeed</em> condemn their 'polygamy'. However, facts (as well as revelation) are clear that the Prophet Joseph practiced the 'Celestial order of marriage'. <a href="http://www.ldsanswers.org/was-prophet-joseph-smith-commanded-practice-plural-marriage/" rel="nofollow">http://www.ldsanswers.org/was-prophet-joseph-smith-commanded-practice-plural-marriage/</a><br /><br />In the end it all comes down (again) to a testimony of the prophets that followed Joseph. The Lord clearly put his stamp of approval on Brigham Young in the <a href="http://www.ldsanswers.org/evidence-transfiguration-brigham-young/" rel="nofollow">transfiguration event</a>. The saints that lived in Joseph's day were not blind - and most gained a testimony of Brigham Young as Joseph's successor and came west in the exodus.<br /><br />Rock, I appreciate that you have a testimony of Joseph Smith. I do too - I know he was a prophet and the head of this dispensation. The part you're missing is that the Lord doesn't simply restore His church, gospel, and priesthood only to lose it again. The Lord is "the same yesterday, today, and forever" and will speak through His prophets (Amos 3:7). The Prophet Joseph prophesied that the church "would never again be taken from the earth" and that the Saints would go to the Rocky Mountains. If ANYONE had the authority to follow Joseph (and remember God speaks through prophets) it was Brigham Young. And I believe Brother Brigham when he says he isn't a prophet the same way Joseph Smith was. "Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it." I don't think Brigham could ever be the same as Joseph - for Joseph had a greater work as the Prophet of the Restoration. That doesn't mean that Brigham wasn't a prophet at all, though. Joseph Smith, as a modern Moses (and Hyrum as a modern Aaron) also have a modern Joshua - Brigham Young - who led the children of Israel the rest of the way to the Salt Lake and established the stakes of Zion.Faith, Family, Freedomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14065933776385488863noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-46219886405534103912016-12-26T03:38:23.649-08:002016-12-26T03:38:23.649-08:00Did JS practise it? I can hardly believe so. If so...Did JS practise it? I can hardly believe so. If so, where is his posterity? He did teach it in secret I suppose but for what reason I don't know. There is too much confusion about the subject; nobody can tell me what it was really about, people come up with their own personal ideas about it from all corners. The practice was deep rooted in the early church but not just because of Brigham Young. He had some strange opinions, but concerning polygamy, the leading authorities were all involved in it. And it was not just for fun: some of the early apostles had more than 60 children, and even after the 1890 Manifesto it was continued in secret for a long time, and not just by these socalled Fundamentalists. So where did this deep conviction come from? <br />Anyway I have abandoned this subject as an object to investigate a long ago. I have more important things to do.R. Metzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15875261161185193692noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-40725891369558266922016-02-22T08:34:49.259-08:002016-02-22T08:34:49.259-08:00Alan, I am sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo gratefu...Alan, I am sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo grateful from the bottom of my heart that you wrote this. There are 2 things that have always (well, since I was around 5 years old and learned about them) bothered me about our church (I don't say gospel, because I don't believe they are or were ever gospel principles). One was polygamy and the other was the blacks and the priesthood. The second has already been rooted out and admitted to being the racism of Brigham Young and some of his successors. The polygamy thing was still a huge thorn in my side. I have prayed about it and have NEVER felt that either of these things came from God. If God is the same yesterday, today and forever and is not a respecter of persons... if He created Adam and Eve, and loves his daughters as much as his sons, it has never made sense to me. I have literally 'hung on' for all of this time because the gospel principles are beautiful and the spirit has testified to me of them. I won't get into debates online, but want to say that I believe that anyone who blindly holds onto things because 'that is how it is' and that is what they were taught will learn the truth in the next life. I am soooo grateful for the spirit and how He testifies of truths and denies untruths. I have been waiting for this for over 30 years and can not thank you enough!!! If anything, this has strengthened my testimony of what Joseph Smith brought to the world. Thanks you sooooo much!!!!Brenefchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07483249430677742757noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-19515334358878586382016-01-03T19:11:25.637-08:002016-01-03T19:11:25.637-08:00I would like Mr. Waterman to explain the Indian Po...I would like Mr. Waterman to explain the Indian Polygamy revealation 1831.<br /><br />Possible revelation in 1831<br />A photograph of part of W. W. Phelps' transcript of a claimed 1831 polygamy revelation by Joseph Smith. The original is held by the LDS Church's historical department.<br /><br />Some scholars believe that Smith transcribed a revelation recommending polygamy on July 17, 1831. This alleged revelation is described in a letter to Brigham Young written in 1861 by an early Mormon convert, William W. Phelps,[13][14][15][16][17] thirty years after the supposed revelation.[1][18] This was during a period when LDS Church leaders were justifying the practice and origins of plural marriage, particularly to Mormon splinter groups who did not agree with the practice.[18]<br /><br />The key portion of the revelation proclaims:[14]<br />“ [I]t is [Jesus Christ's] will, that in time, ye should take unto you wives of the Lamanites and Nephites [i.e., Native Americans], that their posterity may become white, delightsome, and Just, for even now their females are more virtuous than the gentiles. ”<br /><br />This wording is comparable with the portion of the 1830 edition of the Book of Mormon, which corresponds to today's 2 Nephi 30:5–6, which states that when Native Americans receive the gospel they will become a "white and a delightsome people."[19][20] Unlike the 1831 revelation, the 1830 version of the Book of Mormon does not specify that the Native Americans would become "white and delightsome" through plural marriage. A note from Phelps in the same document explains how the conversion of the Native Americans coincided with Smith's plan for a new system of marriage:[1][21]<br />“ About three years after this was given [i.e., about 1834], I asked brother Joseph, privately, how "we," that were mentioned in the revelation could take wives of the "natives" as we were all married men? He replied instantly "In the same manner that Abraham took Hagar and Keturah; and Jacob took Rachel, Bilhah and Zilpah; by revelation—the saints of the Lord are always directed by revelation. ”<br /><br />A reference was made to this revelation five months after its alleged date in a letter by Mormon apostate Ezra Booth to the Ohio Star on December 8, 1831, in which he refers to the "revelation [that the Mormon Elders] form a matrimonial alliance with the Natives", but the letter makes no reference to polygamy.[17] This letter is significant in that it confirms the authenticity of the revelation,[1] but some[who?] regard it as problematic because had it mentioned polygamy, Booth would have mentioned it in his anti-Mormon agenda.[citation needed] Three authors assert that a second record of the revelation exists, believed to be in the LDS Church's historical department,[1][14][22] though its existence has not been confirmed by the church.[citation needed]<br /><br />The LDS Church never published Phelps's note or letter, nor has it been canonized as part of Mormon scripture, which was done with many of Smith's other revelations. The church also never adopted a policy requiring or recommending that its members marry Native Americans. In 1943, historian Fawn Brodie stated that LDS Church historian Joseph Fielding Smith told her that a revelation foreshadowing polygamy had been written in 1831 but never published, and that although its existence in the church library is acknowledged, "in conformity with the church policy" Brodie would not be permitted to examine it.[23][24]<br /><br />Though the 1831 revelation is cited by Mormon historians,[25] non-Mormon historians,[1] and critics,[22] there are dissenting opinions, and no consensus has been reached.[26][27][28]randyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09433827421600228786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-281153996884446882015-07-11T21:21:35.093-07:002015-07-11T21:21:35.093-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Lillihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06093952277840534639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-34085317982194552312015-04-09T15:56:30.070-07:002015-04-09T15:56:30.070-07:00Rock....what say you after the essay the church pu...Rock....what say you after the essay the church published on lds.org? I wanted to believe JS didn't practice polygamy but have since read the accounts all over the internet written by the wives or those JS attempted to marry. I don't believe polygamy was/is required by God. I also don't believe that the Lord would send an angel with a sword to force anyone to do anything! That would be denying us agency. Vile. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-43560003649765852352015-03-19T09:00:56.032-07:002015-03-19T09:00:56.032-07:00Polygamy was most definitely something taught and ...<br />Polygamy was most definitely something taught and practiced by Joseph Smith. Anyone arguing against this doesn't know their own Mormon history. Today's LDS church is, in fact, living in apostasy against the Mormon church (those living in polygamy). <br /><br />That being said, polygamy is a pretty horrific institution and I don't suggest anyone practice it. <br />Mormonism itself is a sham of a religion. Any religion that tells you that you can someday become a god is doing something very, very wrong. <br />There shalt be no other gods before me, Thus saith The only true God. <br /><br />Anyone in Mormonism I pray that you look into your own history and find the truth. <br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-83174130950967908682015-03-08T17:59:07.027-07:002015-03-08T17:59:07.027-07:00Way to Go Rock and Dave P.
God calls polygamy &quo...Way to Go Rock and Dave P.<br />God calls polygamy "an abomination" even when practiced by "men of OLD". This included Abraham, Israel, King David (who repented) and Solomon, etc. Only the wicked believe in this practice (and the stupid, gullible, or "whoremongers" who justify it due to their ignorance of the scriptures). God forewarned everyone about the evils of polygamy through his Prophet Jacob (Jacob 2:23-40 and Jacob 3). The Nephites were destroyed for practicing polygamy. The "whoremongers" as God calls them, justified polygamy based on their ignorance of these scriptures, which is a complete atrocity to all women and results in condemnation of all who practice it.<br />The part of Jacob that has been totally misconstrued and misinterpreted in order to justify polygamy counsels us to raise up your children (seed) in the knowledge of God.<br />Polygamy has never been of God just as CHRIST taught that marriage is to be between one man and one woman, and concubines there should be none!<br />Any teaching that contradicts Christ's teachings are NOT of God! It's that simple. <br />Brigham Young had Joseph, Hyrum and Samuel Smith murdered (research Samuel's death due to poison to ensure no Smith took over Brigham's King position). Willard Richards was a cousin to Brigham and became the church historian with LOTS of alterations and embellishments made to tarnish Joseph Smith's name, to justify polygamy, etc.<br />D&C 124 proclaims the condemnation of the church today for its "follies and ABOMINATIONS", for which it (and the members) have never repented.<br />Way to go Rock bringing for the TRUTH!<br />Joseph was warned by God for wanting to do "his own will and [had] carnal desires", which caused some grave follies in his life, but not with as many women as purported. And his grave errors occurred when he got drunk (yes, he did drink and smoked cigars, prior to the word of wisdom that was never meant to become a law, but only a counsel, due to Joseph's remorse and repentance (D. Michael Quinn, Origins 144-156)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-58966705319310622182014-11-23T18:54:42.694-08:002014-11-23T18:54:42.694-08:00It is ironic to me that the Church website recentl...It is ironic to me that the Church website recently posted an acknowledgement that Joseph Smith has as many as 35-40 wives. Unless they have some undisclosed evidence that this is factual, I don't see how they can state this as if the matter is settled.<br /><br />I have reviewed over 40 books on plural marriage, from the fundamentalist, anti-Mormon, and current LDS perspectives. I also have read all of the writings you indicated Joseph Smith and Hyrum did not indulge in the practice. The recent writings of Brian Hales do not resolve anything, because he did not address in any coherent and direct way the primary documentary evidence referred to in your essay.<br /><br />Clearly, unless some additional evidence is disclosed, one cannot say that the available evidence to most members of the Church is dispositive on this matter. Rather, concluding that JS and H practiced plural marriage involves heaping assumptions on top of assumptions. Such piles of conclusory arguments cannot substitute for valid inference. It would flunk a basic course in logic.Fredericksonnoreply@blogger.com