I have two big announcements to make before this month is over (Well, big for me, anyway.) The first is that my book is finished and now available at Amazon, and the good news is it's incredibly cheap.
Did I say "cheap"? I mean "my book is inexpensive." It lists for Fifteen bucks, but Amazon has it currently discounted. So my loss is your gain. I'd get it now if I were you before the price goes up.
I designed this book partly with your mother-in-law in mind. If you have friends and loved ones who don't 'get' you, who are convinced that you can't be a faithful member of this church without displaying the requisite deference to modern Church leaders, this book may help those close to you come to understand that Jesus Christ does not require anything like that from members of His church.
At only 160 pages, it's a comparatively easy read (compared to my usual logorrheic postings on this blog). It will be available any day now on Kindle, and if you buy the hardcopy now, you can get the kindle version later for only $2.99 What a deal! So what are you waiting for? Operators are standing by! Click Here to find this remarkable treasure:
"What To Expect When You're Excommunicated"
Second Big Announcement
Through a series of miraculous occurrences, Connie and I, who normally abide in far off Sacramento, California, have suddenly found ourselves in Utah. We are the grateful recipients of the hospitality of strangers who looked at me and said, "Say, weren't you that groovy looking guy whose photo was in the New York Times? Please stay with us and partake of our vittles."
So here we are, and I've been invited to participate in the Sunstone Symposium on Saturday August 2nd on the panel discussing "Moderating Mormons in Cyberspace." That panel will convene at 11:00 am Saturday, but I'll be present at the symposium for all three days beginning Thursday, July 31st, so please come up and say hi to me.
I've come to know so many of you online, and I wish there were an opportunity to meet with at least some of you face to face, but alas, because of time constraints and other obligations, pretty much the only chance it looks like I'll have to meet my friends will be at the Symposium that weekend, so if you can't make the entire weekend, I hope you'll at least come for Saturday. After the program concludes that evening, there will be an informal After-Party Saturday night from 7-11 pm. The address is 1444 Yale Ave, which is 1050 South in Salt Lake City. Bring along snacks or drinks to share, and let's get acquainted.
Denver Snuffer will be presenting on Saturday at 2:00, and I'm looking forward to meeting him for the first time there, as well as other luminaries I've admired from afar. So being at the Sunstone Symposium is a dream come true for me, as I've always wanted to attend and never had the opportunity, living as we do so far away. And now I'm going to be an actual participant! Pretty cool. Pre-registration has been extended until Sunday, July 27th, so if you hurry you can save some money by registering in advance. Here's the registration information:
Sunstone Symposium Registration
And here's a copy of the program:
Sunstone Symposium Program
I wish I could tell you I'll have some of my books with me, but alas, it will take too long to get them shipped here. The Symposium will be over before they even arrive. The only way I had of getting a copy of my own was to buy one through Amazon Prime last night so I'd have it here in two days. So I had to pay almost full price for my own book. But at least I'll have one to show.
The book just went on sale yesterday, and this morning I pulled up my account at Createspace, Amazon's printing arm, just to make sure everything was in order, and I saw that I had made my first sale! I can't tell you the feeling of seeing that someone had purchased the first ever copy of my book! I wondered who it was?
After a few minutes, though, I realized it was me. That was the record of the book I had just bought for myself last night. So my enthusiasm was short-lived. On the other hand, I just earned myself a couple bucks royalty, so maybe I should buy a few more.
Okay, Here's A Third Big Announcement
My new friend Bill Shepard, co-author with Michael Marquardt of the book "Lost Apostles: Forgotten Members of Mormonism's Original Quorum of the Twelve" will be holding a book signing with Mike at Ken Saunders Books, 268 S 200 E in Salt Lake City at 6 Pm this Tuesday. 801-521-3819 is the phone number at the store. Believe me when I tell you that you need this book! I quoted from it in my own book,and Andrew Hamilton, in his review for the Association of Mormon Letters, calls it "one of the most important works of historical biography in the Joseph Smith Restorationist movement from the last 10 years." I agree, though I'd make that an even dozen years. So if you can, come and meet both the authors (they're also presenting at Sunstone); and I hear Todd Compton and Michael Quinn may both be there also, so I'm going.
Some Further Announcements
Last month after I had already posted my last blog entry, I was interviewed by Paul Duane at K-Talk Radio in Salt Lake City, and also by Heather Clarkson of Mormon Expositor. If you're one of those people who never seems to get enough of hearing me talk (Hi, Mom!), you can access those interviews below.
K-Talk Interview with Paul Duane
The actual interview isn't easy to find on the page. Scroll down to where you see the band that reads "Play in New Window" or "Download."
Mormon Expositor Interview with Heather Clarkson
In this interview Heather delves into my past to get to the real, secret Rock Waterman lurking inside. You'll be astonished! (No you won't.)
And finally, Rob Nielsen has come up with this parody of the famous scene from "A Few Good Men" in response to the current string of purges within the Church:
"You Can't Handle The Truth!"
So, in conclusion, don't forget: 1. Come to the Sunstone Symposium, and 2. Buy my book.
Please buy my book. Connie and I are counting on your purchases to provide us the gas money to get back home to Sacramento. Seriously, it's too hot out here in Zion.
Oh! And when you've finished the book, please leave a smashing review on Amazon. That'll help the book get pulled up and recommended when others do a book search using the search term "Mormon." Click here:
"What To Expect When You're Excommunicated"
Update: I forgot to credit my friend Ron Pedersen who insisted on writing the back cover notes. He calls me "cheeky."
Important Note About Posting Comments:
As announced previously, henceforth all comments posting on this blog only as "Anonymous" will be deleted.
I respect all reader's wishes to post anonymously, and you may continue to do so as long as at the beginning and/or end of your comment you use some type of unique identifiyer so that others can tell you from the hundreds of others posting as "Anonymous." With so many commenting under the name "Anonymous," the conversations have become increasingly difficult to follow. It has also become obvious that some of those posting anonymously are often among the most uncivil; rather than engage in intelligent arguments, some of these people tend to get quarrelsome. A civil argument advances the dialogue; petty and immature attacks on other's views do not.
Please note that if you are concerned about your privacy, the drop-down feature that reads "Name/URL" already keeps you completely anonymous. When you post a moniker using that method, I don't have the ability to track who you are (not that I would want to) and neither does anyone else. So it makes sense to use that feature if you wish to keep your true identity hidden. All you have to do is place whatever username you wish to go by in the "Name" box and ignore the URL part. If you find it necessary to fill in the URL, you can put any link in the URL box you choose, such as Youtube.com, Amazon.com, or even LDS.org
Those with Google, Yahoo, Wordpress, and other accounts can choose to post under those accounts, which helps to lead others to your own blog if you have one.
That having been said, please join the conversation below.
293 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 293 of 293@BK, really quickly here--
your tone has changed, and it's really nice. I'm reading your posts again--
:)
noname,
Thank you. I realize I have strong opinions and so I'm trying to say things softly, not sure I'm very good at it though. It's really hard to smile in print. :)
It would be nice to have 'Pure Mormonism' get-togethers, once a year or regularly in certain areas where we could have good discussions in person.
@ BK
Well first I would want to understand God's definition of charity before I go off looking for such a person. I believe there is a lot more riding on and around this than any one thinks, but really you don't need to go off looking for a person when God is right there available to you.
If you read the JST of the Bible vs. JKV here is what we get:
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not continue in sin; for the Spirit of God remaineth in him; and he cannot continue in sin, because he is born of God, having received that holy Spirit of promise.
(JST New Testament 1 John 3:9)
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
(New Testament | 1 John 3:9)
You misunderstand what I'm saying when we are no longer sinning because we are born of God, that doesn't mean we are perfect, it just means we have stepped up another rung on the ladder of progression, and because we have once again been brought back into His presence and have His spirit abiding in us, we can not sin.
Think of it this way, before we came to this earth we were in the presence of God. We still had our agency, but because Satan, while in the presence of God, rebelled, he became perdition. We were not perfect then, being in God's presence, but were learning and progressing, we weren't perfect then and we are perfect now, only God is perfect and until we can learn enough to become like Christ, then we can be perfect too.
Also you can't recognize a prophet without being a prophet or in other words, having the holy ghost to open up your understandings in order that one can recognize the prophet or in other words bear witness of the truth of it to you.
You are spot on when saying that God does not want us to believe a prophet. If we believe a prophet then we are not looking to Him and we are relying on the arm of flesh.
As far as any church that is an organized institution, get a load of this:
67 Behold, this is my doctrine—whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church.
68 Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me, but is against me; therefore he is not of my church.
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 10:67 - 68)
Yes, I believe that prophets make mistakes, just like everyone, they too are men like you and me, where they differ is they have a direct channel to God so they can
know the mind of God on a subject if they inquire. The neat thing about this whole thing is God is opened that option up to all of us, if we inquire and continue to diligently inquire then each one of us can also become prophets as well. Then we will also desire to follow whatever it is God wants or commands of us.
God wanted a specific thing from Joseph and Joseph finally accomplished that thing, however, Joseph wanted more for those ppl who were willing to listen to him. Yes he was easily influenced by the opinions of friends close to him, and made mistakes. Joseph wanted to see his friends have the same relationship with God that he did and God was willing to help Joseph try to fulfill his goal, all the time knowing that that group of ppl would not get far enough along in their progression to accomplish it, but because we have their example of failure, as well as multiple of examples of failure at least we don't have to follow the path they took.
We need to simply rely on our relationship with God.
I've stated this once before and I'll state it again. It's very important to understand that we need not take ourselves or our opinions to seriously. Everyone has an opinion and they all stink.
Only Gods opinion counts.
@BK
After rereading your last couple of posts, I think we are in agreement. Don't you?
@ Rock
Thank you!!!
Calleen,
I agree, only God's opinion counts, meaning only Christ's opinion (words), not prophets.
That's why even those verses by men that you sited are suspect and confusing, for they differ with what Christ said. I believe we need to just stick with how Christ described Charity or his example of righteousness, not what was written by men about charity or being 'born of God', for it may or maynot be true, but we know Christ's words are true.
But, if someone 'cannot' or 'does not' sin, that seems pretty perfect to me, but I have not known of anyone who cannot or does not sin, have you?
And I agree we don't have to go looking for anyone or for prophets to know what God/Christ think.
And I agree that it 'takes' a prophet to 'discern' a true prophet/disciple of Christ, which of course requires Charity to be a prophet.
But most people on this site at least, seem to believe Joseph Smith was a true prophet and even believe in and follow some LDS leaders today (by going to the temple, paying them tithing, supporting their church, etc.),
So I'm just saying it would be wise to 1st figure out what Christ says Charity is & use his Charity test to prove whether any of these leaders were or are true prophets, before believing in them or their scriptures 1st.
I agree that all those who are true disciples/followers of Christ are automatically member of his Spiritual Church. I don't believe he has a physical church on this earth, or probably ever had. It appears he just sent his Apostles around to teach his Gospel, not form a Church.
Thus why Joseph Smith looks so suspect, for he instigated a physical Church, claiming it was Christ's, but with all kinds of added things or opposite things to what Christ taught.
And that D&C 10:67-68 verse was said by a man not God or Christ, so we must consider it just one very fallible man's opinion.
I'm a little confused when you say you believe prophets make mistakes, but wouldn't they need to be 'born of God' to really be a prophet, and thus never sin? Or perhaps by 'mistakes' you mean something far more minor, then actually teaching or doing something false.
If there was such a prophet who had charity (yet where has there ever been such a man?), then yes, I agree he would have a 'direct channel' to God, just like everyone else who has charity & thus is righteous.
But isn't it nice to know we don't have to depend on a prophet to know the mind & will of God for us. We can just read & apply Christ's words.
Calleen, Part 2 -
I'm curious though, why you believe God wanted Joseph to do certain things? And which 'things'
do you mean?
If God really wanted a Church started or Priesthood displayed or new scripture brought forth, then I believe God would have used someone/anyone who had Charity, who couldn't be deceived like Joseph to call unrighteous men to help him or publish new scripture/teachings with so much false doctrine in them that many people who really follow Christ would be turned off by them.
If I had lived back then I don't believe I would have thought Joseph was a true prophet, for he did too many things contrary to Christ, for God to ever expect me to think Joseph was called by God to do anything or trustworthy to listen to. (and that's even assuming he was innocent of polygamy).
If you believe he was a prophet then why do you think that? In which ways do you think Joseph 'proved' he had true Charity, (like Christ said he must prove), for I am not seeing it, thus I don't believe anymore that Joseph really saw God or had gold plates or was a true prophet, now that I finally started applying Christ's tests to him & his church & new scriptures.
I realize I have pretty high standards for prophets and those who try to convince people to give them their sacred money meant for the poor, or to join & follow their group/church or to think they are delivering God's will or revelations or scriptures, as Joseph tried to convince people he did, but without proof he really followed Christ & had Charity.
Perhaps we just have different definitions of what Charity is or how a Christlike person/prophet preaches & practices & lives, so that's why we differ on who is a prophet or not.
The church I believe a true prophet would form, if he wanted to teach people to follow Christ, would be far far different then what Joseph ever did.
According to Christ, it seems the Church of Christ consists of 'Prophets' only. And to achieve eternal life we must attain to prophet level in this life, which means possessing charity.
But I don't follow any prophets anymore (I can't even find anyone past or present who I think was a true prophet), I only follow & listen to Christ.
I believe if someone is a true prophet they will teach & live the words of Christ, nothing more nothing less. But sadly, I have never heard of anyone past or present doing that yet.
Hi everybody,
I apologize for not being quick enough deleting the angry insults from our misguided friend as I had promised (and I don't think there is any doubt that that vulgarity was aimed at you, Calleen, despite Brother Tuck's backpedaling. I still have the original in my dashboard. He was attacking you, alright, as you well know.)
Right now I am still in Utah involved in spiritual service that has taken all day and into the night these past few days. That has left me only enough time to delete the posts that are poisoning the dialog; unfortunately for now I am not able to engage in the dialogue.
We'll be home in a day or two; meanwhile I'll check in often to make certain the well doesn't remain poisoned for long. I agree that the best response to those who lack a basic sense of decency is to not respond at all.
@ BK
Part One
OK!!! Being born of God means that a person has a portion of God's spirit with him. He may have better access to God, but he is not perfect. He is only further along in his progression to God. Kind of like going from kindergarten to first grade in the school system, we haven't yet graduated high school. At this stage of the game we've just learned how to listen to the teacher when he talks. Hence we have a prophet.
The key to the above paragraph is the teacher is talking to the student, who, now, knows how to listen. Sometimes the teacher tells that student to write things down and share it with the rest of the class. The thing written down did not come from the student, it came from the teacher. (students being you and I, teacher being God). This message is not the opinion of the student, it is the word of God.
When this happens in our world (class room) the other students (human beings) have to go to the teacher to find out if He (God)truly said those things, (or if it's just an opinion from a man), and what He(God) meant by those things. We are not relying upon the student(prophet) who delivered the message, but upon the teacher(God) to gain full understanding of the message.
If you can get God's attention and you hear His voice and are willing to do what He asks of you, then that makes you a prophet, any one can be a prophet if they can hear the voice of God and understand it. Every individual on the face of this planet has that option if they have a strong enough desire. When finally reaching the state of being a prophet, doesn't mean that you are automatically the president of an organization. That doesn't mean you are in charge of telling ppl what to do and how to believe. That is between each individual and God. However, because you've come to understand the love of God, you want to share that love with others, and so you try to help others on their path to obtain it.
If a person wants to know if a thing said, that is claimed to come from God, is actually a thing coming from God. That person needs to go to God, who is the Master, to get the understanding for himself.
It sounds to me as if you question the fact of whether or not God talks to individuals and whether or not He(God) sends messages to mankind. Am I getting this right?
@ BK
Part 2
Honestly, when I approached God, I questioned everything,(like you are doing now). If it came from a person walking and talking on the earth, I didn't believe them or anything they had to say, and wouldn't believe it because everything up to that point didn't work and I was done with the whole thing. I told God that I couldn't trust myself because I did nothing but make bad decisions,(no matter how hard I tried), and I couldn't trust any one else, because I would take their advice and still everything went wrong.
I told God that the only person I was willing to trust was Him and would He please teach me. I was completely at my wits end and was not only willing, but ready to turn my life completely over to Him, and guess what, He opened the windows of heaven to me and we talked. I could hear Him and He was responding to me and every question. I knew that I needed to have everything redefined, only this time from God,(since I knew my definitions were corrupt and completely wrong. as were everyone else's). I was filled with indescribable love and was joyful. I had complete confidence in what I was being taught. I knew where it came from and I knew it was true.
I also know that if God would take the likes of me under His wing, He'll take any one.
The things I know that Joseph Smith taught that are true, I only know are true, because I have been taught by the Holy Ghost that they are true, and I take it point by point. I rely solely upon God, no one else.
The things I know that Thomas S. Monson talk about are not true is because the Spirit of God withdraws when I'm listening to him.
I also believe that those beings that rely upon another man are idol worshipers. It doesn't matter whether it's Joseph Smith or Moses or Enoch or even Christ. When one came to Jesus and called Him good, Jesus mildly rebuked him saying:
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
(New Testament | Matthew 19:17)
Christ knew He was nothing without God. So to go back to our high school scenario. Jesus Christ is the senior in high school that graduated and we are all looking to Him as an example so we can do what He has done because He knows what it takes to graduate and finally become like God Himself.
If that is your goal, then there is your example. If you want to search for truth, it takes work and prayer, but it's out there available to you, as is God to teach you. However, if you want to just mistrust everything and not move forward out of skepticism, then that's a choice also.
Agency, isn't it wonderful?
@ BK
If you want to dump your definition of charity and go to God to understand what it truly means, then you've got something there. God's definition will free you from your plight.
I agree with your description of how we can receive revelation and learning straight from God. I know he can and does teach us in that manner and that it's vital for us that we can hear God's inspiration.
The problem I guess I have with what your describing is it just seems somewhat vague to me as to 'how one becomes' a prophet and 'how one discerns' a true prophet from a false one.
I believe Christ's teaching of being Charitable and Christlike, is much more straight forward and easy to understand in order to become a prophet, it's like step 1, 2 & 3. Very simple to understand, verses, having to pray for, receive & live some unknown teachings from God himself in order to then become a prophet.
I believe that God/Christ already gave us all the instructions we need in order to become prophets, found in Christ's teachings, if we just follow them. That doesn't mean we don't need or can't benefit from personal revelation and praying but even a child can understand Christ's teachings and how to become righteous.
And I instead believe in Christ's test of Charity as the way to discern prophets, instead of just praying about the person, for it's much easier to see and discern if a person has Charity or not, for it's nearly impossible to miss, if one understands Charity. It's as easy as telling the night from the day, you don't even have to pray about it, for unrighteous people can't fake Charity.
I'm sorry to ask so many questions Calleen and I really do appreciate the discussion, but how does the student/prophet in your mind know for sure their revelation is coming from God or not?
For it seems most all prophets ancient or modern continually fell for false revelation and went astray and did evil thinking it was God talking to them.
So who is clever or righteous enough not to be deceived by false revelation? I think that is why Christ gave us clear instructions, that no one is to add to or take away from, even the Spirit wouldn't.
And if bystanders are curious if someone is a prophet or not or if they speak truth or not, and they go to God and ask him, how do they know it's God answering them and not Satan?
For this is the problem we have the world over, everyone in all different religions all think God is talking to them while everyone else is being deceived. Even most all LDS leaders & members contradict each other and claim to have been taught opposite things by God, which we know can't happen.
So it doesn't seem to be a foolproof method, for everyone is easily deceived to think their inspiration is coming from God when it's very often not. As even Joseph Smith warned us about, cause he often fell for false revelation too.
So I agree with you on how we gain revelation, but I guess I have a different opinion on how & why we must test our revelation and how we more importantly use Christ's words as our more concrete guide.
@ Rock
FT was just angry because I came to your defense, and called a spade, "a spade" and he didn't like it. His anger belongs to you. I just got in the way.
I'll bet you'll be glad to get home.
And I agree we should not follow any man or prophet, but Christ was not a man or prophet, he was a God. He spoke the words of God. Thus God sent him down here to speak his words. That is why they are so sure a foundation for us to prove all things and persons.
Ah, James, you can be a hateful one, no? Why drive the spirit from yourself, brother, with such vitriol? Sure your comments are hurtful and vulgar but the biggest hurt is to your own soul. God mend your poisoned heart and grant you peace somehow.
I read it, Calleen, and I can't see anything to disagree *with*.
I know that sounds lame, but--
There might be stages, though. I don't have the verse or the energy to get it, but there is that one verse about the sons of Mosiah where they had no more disposition to hurt anyone (paraphrase)
I experienced that at one point, but I still sin regularly--
I admit it.
It was, for me, kind of gradual, though I had had a profound experience with Deity before that.
James,
James,
False messiahs are a real concern in our day. Ever read the story of Jim Jones and the Jonestown mass murder/suicide in Guyana? Ever study the work of Christopher Nemelka, self-confessed reincarnation of Hyrum Smith and revealer of the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon? Ever read about Sun Myung Moon, founder of the Unification Church or the 'Moonies'? And there are dozens more. Besides their delusions of grandeur and narcissistic personalities, these folks all claimed to speak on behalf of God, to have revelations of divine insight.
My experience of Rock is not any of these things. If you believe Jesus Christ himself saying, 'by their fruits shall ye know them' it's fairly easy to see a pattern of the fruits of false messiahs including seeking wealth, self-aggrandizement and the gathering of followers. By that same yardstick of measuring one's fruits I'm not seeing much about you, brother, that inspires me to give heed to your admonishment. Even if you were speaking the truth who would be inclined to listen to one filled with the spirit of contention and hatred and mocking? Would you like to be a messiah, James? It is God's will that we all learn to become like Jesus Christ but the path is very different from the one you're on.
I do consider myself a friend of Rock's. I'm drawn to his sense of humor, his clarity of mind and his complete devotion to Jesus Christ and the Book of Mormon. When I ran across his website, 'Pure Mormonism' I suddenly experienced the doubts and questions of my last ten years explored from the refreshing viewpoint of the original orthodoxy revealed through Joseph Smith. I was intrigued that it's not just him, but other good men and women, many of whom claim to have experienced the baptism of fire or a visit by Jesus Christ himself--calling for a renewed loyalty and devotion to the savior and the Book of Mormon.
I resonate to Rock's championing of Jesus Christ defining his church in D&C 10:67 as 'those who repent and come unto me'. Those who do are in a position to drink of the 'living waters' that will sustain us through to eternal life. Remarkably, Jesus pointedly defines anything more or less than this as 1) not of him, 2) is against him and 3) and is not of his church. If it weren't in the D&C in the words of Jesus Christ himself, this would be one of the great heresies of our time. Would you have your fellow believers not follow Jesus Christ in this, James?
I taught D&C 10:64-68 as part of my Gospel Doctrine lesson yesterday about King Hezekiah. When the Assyrians threatened Jerusalem, Hezekiah ordered a tunnel cut through 1770 feet of limestone under the city from Gihon spring outside the city walls to the pool of Siloam inside the walls. Just as the water coming through Hezekiah's tunnel helped keep the Israelites alive physically so the living waters provided by Jesus Christ will keep us alive spiritually--if we repent and come unto Christ. Do it, brother. Let us all repent and come unto Christ. Rock can't bring the living waters to a single human being; neither can President Monson, your sainted grandmother or Joseph Smith. Jesus Christ alone brings salvation.
Your divisiveness, hate and vulgarity here is breathtaking, James. You've burned any bridges of credibility or believability you might have had with this group. Witnessing to us is a fool's errand. Again, God mend your poisoned heart and grant you peace somehow.
Hey, FT, or whoever you are, do you really think that blaming your bad behavior on someone else absolves you from it? You don't shock me. I just feel bad for you. You are striking out like a teenager. Grow up.
@anonymous--
WHAT FOUL LANGUAGE!!!
If I were your mother I would wash your mouth out with soap.
There is nothing of the follower of Christ about you--
Shame on you!
I am beginning to think your are stalking Rock.
@Everyone else,
can someone offer to help Rock delete this filth?
I don't know how to do any of this--
@Calleen,
What I am always hesitant about is the relation of the story of Adam and Eve.
The Book of Mormon, with which I tend to go, doesn't say very much--
and the bible story has a lot of holes.
I think this is the main thing that bothers me about even discussing them, wonderful as they might (probably were) have been.
It seems to me that except when we receive personal revelations all of our beliefs come from what someone else said or wrote. We defend what the person said or did because we are in agreement with what was said or done. I am more and more turning to God for the answers and hope to live worthy of His attention to my needs. We are all her to learn and will make mistakes to why would we take what another person says as the "Gospel" without going to the source to find out if we are on the right path?
@Anonymous
OK, I'll take the bait. You are under the delusion that we give a crap. If you were here in front of me, I have no doubt that I could squeeze your pimple head off of your little pencil neck, but with the cover of anonymity, you can hide behind your keyboard and puff your little chest out. Well, have at it weasel, but know that you're only doing damage to yourself, and revealing to the world what kind of a man you are. You are not a Holy Warrior, you are just a bitter little man. Find another board to harass. This must give you some kind of perverse pleasure. Ask yourself where that is coming from. Seriously, pull your head out, or go see a shrink. My time to be charitable has ended, you scumbag.
Karen,
I like your vision of going to the source for confirmation if not actual revelation on everything. This is a long-standing Mormon belief not particularly emphasized in recent years. How did you come to believe this within yourself? How do you nurture such a useful belief?
The writings of Brigham Young's counselor, Heber C. Kimball suggest that your belief will become an increasingly vital to our well being:
“Let me say to you, that many of you will see the time when you will have all the trouble, trial and persecution that you can stand, and plenty of opportunities to show that you are true to God and his work. This Church has before it many close places through which it will have to pass before the work of God is crowned with victory. …
“The time will come when no man nor woman will be able to endure on borrowed light. Each will have to be guided by the light within himself. If you do not have it, how can you stand?” (Orson F. Whitney, Life of Heber C. Kimball, 3d. ed., Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1945, pp. 449–50.)
@FT
"I guess I am becoming what you people have labeled me to be."
No, just showing the world how easily stirred up you are. Just a spiritually weak individual that hasn't felt the pure love of our Savior yet.
Someone that is too immature to understand that the only person he is actually hurting is himself.
It could take another 20 years (or longer) if you continue to refuse accepting responsibility for your own choices.
Life is just a series of choices, and we have to gradually overcome our habit of making bad ones.
One day, you may awaken to your terrible condition but until then we can only hope, and have pity on you in your current state.
If you do, it may be a most unpleasant experience I can assure you. However, it is a necessary one to gain a true understanding of the saviors love and grow.
Just remember that however long it takes to be brought down into the dust, The Lord is always aware of you, enduring your poor choices with patience and pure love. His hand extended all the day long. He is as anxious to forgive you of your mistakes as a child awaiting a Christmas morning. All you have to do is turn away from your anger and to him.
Until then, we can not be hurt by the staggering immaturity you have chosen to display here (unless of course we choose to allow it). That you can not understand to what extent you have exposed your lack of spiritual growth is truly sad.
Until then we can only choose to be amused by your foolish behavior, rather then continue to feel sadness and remorse at your decisions.
"You have been quick to judge me from the beginning."
It's not difficult to discern your spirit. lol
And there is no "rebellion", just a turning away from that which is not true. More like a gentile awakening from a long nap. Won't you wipe the sleep from your eyes and join us?.. I know, you're still tired, just close your eyes and go back to sleep. But,You will awaken some day. ;)
Aww, he's almost cute isn't he, lol
@ anonymous,
I for one, apologize for the unrighteously judgements that have been flung your direction. God isn't battling for anyone here. Each of us is on our own. I hope you will forgive, in some way, me and any others whose hearts have been temporarily swayed by emotions. God bless us everyone!
God bless us everyone, indeed! lol
Hi Everyone.
Gary Hunt is correct that cyberstalking is illegal. James has been reported, and the internet address from which he has been posting is being tracked by the Blogspot system and turned over to authorities. Thank you all for your patience, and I'm sorry you had to put up with this.
In the meantime, the best thing would be for everyone to ignore him and go about your conversations, as some of you already are. It will aid in his prosecution if he is seen as continuing to bait and goad others without provocation. The fact that he has been banned twice, and continues to return using vulgar insults is all the probable cause that's needed.
His comments will continue to be deleted from the front page, but Blogspot and I have every one of them archived in the back ever since he began posting using my first and last initials, and then went to calling himself "Little Rock." This will all be over soon.
Rock
@Rock
I sent some potentially helpful information to your e-mail account.
Rock,
In hindsight was it not the best course for some of us to reach out to him as a brother in the gospel? It's clear he likes to stir the pot and goad folks into confrontation. Our olive branches seem to have been met consistently by his BIC lighter. Glad there are law governing the matter.
Rock,
Would you help me out? I was reading your book and you mentioned that the story of George Pace and McConkie was under the blog post title "Living in Zombie Land". I remember reading the post about George Pace once before but I have scrolled through the Zombie Land post several times and don't see anything about George Pace. Am I blind or is it elsewhere? Thank you for your help!
Homeschool Mom
Homeschool Mom, I guess I just THOUGHT I had told that story there. I know I've written about it or discussed it somewhere; must have been some forum or facebook group or something.
Here's one version of the story I found for you online:
http://transfiguredword.blogspot.com/2011/02/george-w-pace-and-bruce-r-mcconkie.html
MajJohn,
Thanks for your kind assistance.
Sander,
Indeed it was the best course for some of us to reach out to him as a brother in the gospel, and many of us did just that here. Over and over and over.
The word "humble" means "teachable", but all our kind and loving efforts to assist James in understanding our positions was only met with more bitterness, scoffing and derision. (For examples, search past comment sections for comments under the pseudonyms AW, Little Rock, Friar Tuck, JT, and most recently "James.")
By now you may have concluded that the truth about our friend is that he has a very troubled mind; therefore, reason, logic, and common sense cannot penetrate it. Many reached out to him in compassion, including me, as I allowed him to vent on these pages month after month with very little censure. After I told him he is no longer welcome on this forum, his angry fixation on me could be found on other forums, such as the comment section after the article about Sunstone on The Daily Beast. He simply cannot stop himself from "warning" the world against what he sees as my desire to be the Messiah.
As you can see, his unhealthy fixation on me has brought him to a very dark place (those who did not see his recent posts before I deleted them would be absolutely shocked at the demonic turn his comments have taken).
We can and should have pity and compassion for a soul so haunted, but there comes a point when we deserve to keep our distance from such unmitigated hatred lest it poison our discourse.
I fear the only thing that will stop these constant outbursts is when our sad friend is forced to realize he has crossed the line of decency and social acceptability. And I'm afraid that realization will only occur when it is forced upon him. If he is wise enough to stay away, I will not prosecute, but if he insists on "owning" the dialog here as if this is his private domain and no one else has the right to respond to his outbursts or gently and lovingly correct him, he may have to face harsher penalties.
I have seen cases where as part of the punishment, judges have ordered the defendant to never have access to a computer again, and if he does, he faces incarceration.
That may turn out to be the best thing that could happen to someone like our friend James. He deserves to learn how to have a civil discourse. He has proven himself incapable of doing so while hiding behind the mask of anonymity.
I too hope and pray that he finds peace. I say God bless him on his way. I hold no ill will; I simply cannot have him continue to spew his bile on this forum.
I hope this will be the last time on here that I make mention of him. He seems to feed on the attention, and I do not wish to give him another moment's worth.
Rock, I know you did write about it on your blog, because I remember reading it. I am pretty sure anyway. I am sure I heard it from your blog first. Its like a lost gem or a needle in a hay stack! I will let you know if I find which post it was in. Thanks for the link! Still enjoying the book, almost done! Obviously, it takes me some time to get through a book. Time is precious around here!
Homeschool Mom
Wow. I can't believe that I read all those comments. I'm just a TBM - turned fundamentalist - turned agnostic. This is such a nicer place after you get rid of the wishful thinking and get honest. I hope everyone can conjure up the balls to face reality... the whole my-imaginary-friend is better than your-imaginary-friend thing has become stale. Enough allready.
You guys really tick me off! I told you weeks ago to just ignore Little Rock! But oh no! All of you with your "well meaning intentions"!! But they're not! This idiot was getting more ink from you than Rock's post. This guy is not the problem with this blog, you people are! Each and every one of you that replied to his posts just chaps my a**!!! That I have to read through pages and pages of pettiness between you all just galls to me no end!!!! If you don't like someones post, if you get just one inkling that they cannot be reasoned with, don't reply, don't argue, don't try to convert, just carry on! Rock, This guy is not your problem, it's all your other idiot posters who just keep it going. For every post he posts, there are 10 replies!! How can you ban this moron when he has such as captive audience???? Morons feeding upon morons!
A friend of mine who had several heart attacks and spouted some pretty crazy stuff asked me once if I would argue with a retarded person (which he was technically classified). It brought powerful understanding to me since I have a mentally retarded uncle, and would never commit to arguing with over any subject
You Mormons! You Mormons on this blog! You have substituted arguing with one kind of folk, for another! And yet the disease remains. So smart, so full of yourselves! Traipsing your opinionated minds all over the place. Still so right!! Well, thank you, thanks very much for subjecting me to you well intentioned drivel! You have accomplished nothing, and your have put yourselves on the same level of an only marginally informed idiot! Congrats!!!
God never threw Satan out of the garden, but just the people who listened to him. You can't throw this guy out, there's a thousand like him. It you guys!
I will not quietly see this blog and it's thoughtful ideas be overcome with petty self- justifying, self righteous, all knowing, posters. You! You posters who responded to this troll are the problem. Why don't you read for awhile before replying to each and every clown who comes along? It would be greatly appreciated!
Blaming people for trying to reason with, or defend their opinions and feelings from some emotional midget is equally out of line. Who are you to scold people for just responding to this clown? Is this how you would talk to your children when they do something that you do not agree with?..
I can have little respect for people that display such little control of their anger, to be overcome by anger is truly most shameful and vile. I think I can see a little of your own behavior reflected in your criticism of others mike.
You have substituted arguing with one kind of folk, for berating everyone. Thanks very much for subjecting me to your well intentioned drivel. You have accomplished nothing, and you have put yourself on the same level of an only marginally informed idiot.
I'm willing to bet that your response brought our friend a hearty laugh. After all, why does he need to even be here insulting and attacking people if he can just watch you do it in his stead. I guess his attempt to manipulate peoples emotions and spread the anger and hatred he felt inside to others was successful after all, and probably better then he could have hoped for. Way to victim blame mike, Good job!
Mike, it's not pretty, but it's NOT equal to what he did. Just be thankful that the posts have been deleted and you don't have to read some of the vile stuff that he wrote. One of the very personal and vulgar insults was to a member of my extended family who happens to be here on the board, and I'm sorry but I couldn't let that slide. I'm sorry your sensibilities were insulted. Anyway, why are we stirring this back up now?
@All,
You'll have to forgive me. I (and perhaps "Nobody Ever", but I don't want to speak for him) lack the standard Triple-M training. You know, Male Mormon Milquetoast. Maybe it's the lack of BPA in my diet... I don't know.
Ah, nobody ever said...
You might as well be a troll yourself! Anybody who consistently encourages a troll is a possible troll as well!
It's pretty common knowledge on forums that you don't talk to the troll. It's fairly well known internet decorum.
For this reason, and because I basically begged everybody here to just ignore this guy weeks ago am I angry. His posts are a small problem, replies to it are bigger.
He's supposedly been kicked out, fine. But I'm still calling you who encouraged him to the carpet. I think you might be trolls too.
@Mike H
...Or are perhaps YOU the troll? Hmmm... oops, I shouldn't be responding :|
Why did you feel the need to go off on your angry rant, I don't see any point to blame others, then an attempt to hurt their feelings.
Hmm, there is a familiar spirit about this guy... lol
I think there are a few things we can learn from the comments made by Mike H.
First, Mike H. stated the following...
"It's pretty common knowledge on forums that you don't talk to the troll. It's fairly well known internet decorum."
How does one know if a person is a "troll" or not? There needs to be a vetting process by which it can be determined if the person making comments is, in fact, a troll. Sometimes there are people who are just ignorant of certain knowledge and with some gentle persuasion can be brought to reasoned understanding or at least agree to disagree. In other words, civil dialogue. Once you find out that a person is not open to understanding and just wants to cause trouble then you know you are dealing with a troll. This is when you ignore them.
For everyone's information, here's a definition of decorum from Wikipedia:
"Decorum (from the Latin: "right, proper") was a principle of classical rhetoric, poetry and theatrical theory that was about the fitness or otherwise of a style to a theatrical subject. The concept of decorum is also applied to prescribed limits of appropriate social behavior within set situations."
Another point I will bring out is that if you read what Mike H. has said and compare it to what the "one and only" AW, Little Rock, Friar Tuck, FT, JT and James has said, you will recognize the same familiar illogical, inconsistent thinking patterns (or as Nobody Cares said "a familiar spirit"). You will also note the same type of violent, "ad hominem abusive" attacks.
Mike H. is either the same cyber-stalker Rock is having investigated or is a cyber-stalker with similar thinking patterns.
Friends,
I can't find on here the link to the book of mormon (can't seem to cap)--
that is written in book form (no bible pasted on it)--
I need it ASAP--
it's kind of desperate--
THANKS!
I think I found it; I hope nobody went to too much trouble--
The Parable of the Facade
Our religion is a facade. A facade has substance, it is beautiful, it is intended to entice. But the real meat is found inside. Whether we go in to have a meal or to dance or see a play, the substance of which we came to partake is inside, past the facade. An elder brother, not content to stand staring at the exterior went inside. From inside the beautiful building he beckoned us: "It is all right, you can come in too! It is even more beautiful in here! Nothing prevents you, you are authorized just as I was. Don't listen to those who say you need credentials, they were wrong, it is open to all!" But those outside couldn't believe. It was too good to be true, they let the naysayers shame them into standing outside. But they revered the man went in. They rejoiced in his courage and knowledge and wisdom and wrote songs in his honor. Eventually shanties and then buildings were erected. They all entertained themselves as they congratulated each other in their wise course not to embarrass themselves by attempting to go inside the building! Three generations later another, tired of this went inside the building. He embraced the first in a joyful embrace. He also turned and beckoned to those outside and told them how well they had done so far and how he enjoyed his stay with them. He persuaded them patiently in their own language saying "Remember that man whom ye revere? He who went in, before you constructed these other buildings? He was right, it is free, you must come in, it is wonderful! Will you not? I love you." The builders however laughed him to scorn, but some others heard a familiar voice and left their various occupations and followed the man into the building. Eventually an earthquake shook the earth, and all the poorly constructed buildings of those builders and their inhabitants fell and turned to dust for they had rejected the chief cornerstone and the sure foundation.
Rock, I read a comment of yours somewhere (don't remember where) that you were to be in a debate about polygamy at some point in the Sunstone Symposium. It's that debate recorded? If so, how do I access it?
Hi, Everyone.
I'm Rock's daughter, Amy. He has asked me to post this message. He and my mom arrived home from Utah early Thursday morning, both very sick and extremely weak from a lengthy drive. The trip home was filled with car problems, and took quite a toll on them.
Dad has asked me to monitor his blog to make deletions as necessary.
My dad hopes to regain enough strength to add a new post within a week. However, he is suffering from a serious infection, and may need to go to the hospital.
Please keep my dear parents in your thoughts and prayers. Thank you again, for the tremendous love and support you give to both of them.
Lee, there was no polygamy debate; That was a joke.
Micah, I haven't really known what to say to what you said.
I think I, maybe, get it--
but I'm not sure.
I know it's symbolism--
but I'm not sure how many it will apply to--
I guess we need some discussion on this, eh, group of people trying to be pure Mormons!
Oh, Amy, I am SO sorry.
What can *we* do?
There must be something--
OH, I was afraid that trip would be too hard on them--
I do know you are a good daughter, though. Bless you. Honoring your father and mother will bring you a long, rich life, I do believe.
Bless you, honey.
What can we do?
well, *we* will pray; that is a given, but DARN it all!!!
:(
Do they have a paypal account?
Do they need meals brought in?
I can try to figure out how that can be managed.
Bless your heart, No Name. I read your comment to my dad and he says you and your family are in more desperate straits than he and mom are but he was touched at your desire to reach out.
As you might expect, no one from the ward will be interested in bringing in meals, but we do have some food here in their apartment. I will be staying here until Dad is able to go to the store. All I have is my bike but there is cold cereal and cnnned food aplenty. Anyway, Dad is not eating much. he had little apetite but is still happy he is getting skinny. He is sleeping a lot thank goodness because when he wakes up he is in agony,
We will get through this but Dad and mom are frustrated that they were not able to come home and hit the ground running. The trip home took its toll they left monday night 9pm and limped in here 4am thursday morning. completely beat. During their trip through the desert two heater hose burst outside Wendover and outside Winnemucca the thing that keeps the battery charging gave in. I don't remember what it;s called. They had this insurance benefit that provided a tow so they had to wait all night until the repair shop opened and had it replaced.
Anyway, they had with them plenty enough gas money to get home because in addition to what they had budgeted, a kind friend who was at Sunstone after party put 100 dollars into their Paypal account. But then before they left salt lake city a friend slipped Connie 160.00 and when dad found out about it he said, as soon as we get home we';re sending that money right back to her because I know her situationh and we should be giving her family money instead of the other way around.
That turned out to be the exact amount needed to repair the alternator. O that's what its called, an alternator!
Dad said he should have known Eva was inspired. "She always is."
He is still determined to find a way to make it back to her. Sadly, book royalties won't be paid for another 60 days, and they won't be as abundant as we had all hoped, There are many people still owed directly out of those royalties for making this trip a possibility.
So between you and me, I think dad may be feeling a little discouraged at the setback. He hoped to come home and hit the ground running, but he is not even able to barely sit up for now.
We could use ALL The prayers possible, please. Don't hold back. prayers and spiritual energy will fix this better than anything else. We need healing miracles fast. For both my dad and my mom, the trip home took an awful toll on mom. She is in real agony. If dad can recover fast, he can make things better but right now he is extremely weak.
My kids are being cared for by friends so for now I can give mom and dad my full attention,. Thanks to all of you for your loving concern. Dad wants you all to know he loves you and wants to post another post here asap. It will be about the things that he said should have been included in his book. So it will be kind of like a deleted scenes DVD extra. I can't wait, myself!
Love,
Amy (Rock Waterman's Daughter.)
You'll probably turn me into the authorities for posting this, but I can contribute a hundred dollars to the Watermans if there is a place I can send the money.
Friar Tuck
How can we add to Rocks pay pal?
I'm gonna guess his PayPal account is under his email address:
RockWaterman@gmail.com
Dads paypal account is under Rockwaterman@gmail.com same as his email address.
I am just going to assume that someone is posing as friar tuck just to cause more confusion. What other possible explanation is there? Any way I don't plan to say anything to dad about that right away. I'm going to let him sleep.
I don't think he would have readily accepted any money from any of you, to tell you the truth. He believes prayers are stronger than money. In fact, with enough prayers going up to heaven, he believes the money concerns will fix themselves. He would have ignored these requests for his paypal account name. But I happen to know how close they are cutting it financially right now with these unexpected difficulties so I am going to make the decision here to allow those who are willing and able to lend a small hand to my parents.
Dad won't know about any of this until tomorrow or the next day anyway as he is currently sedated. I know he will be very grateful, even if he wishes he hadn't been in this position of accepting assistance from others when these days he is all about trying to be a giver not a taker.
God bless you all. We are not on the edge of a giant precipice, just a small one, but even small precipices can be soul wrenching when you are weak and helpless and feverish as my dad is now., Your willingness to serve touches me deeply. And I know my father will be in tears when he learns of your love.
Please spread the word about Dad's book so this conversation begins to take place church wide. That means more to him than anything, that members continue to wake up and come to follow Jesus Christ instead of all this focus on following the leaders of the church who are leading people toward them and away from Jesus.
And Friar Tuck, if that actually is you, I know my dad would like to have a private chat with you and get to know what it is that is making you tick. He told me so a couplke of weeks ago., He said that if he and you could only talk one on one, he knew you would be able to iron out your differences. So please include a phone number when you contact him via paypal. Or just email him at rockwaterman@gmail.com He does not want enemies, and it pains him to think there is someone out there who thinks of him as an enemy.
@Amy Waterman:
I am not trying to cause confusion. I tried to log in to paypal like 10 times and it wouldn't accept the characters I typed in. I will keep trying. I won't make any more posts.
Friar Tuck
Friar Tuck,
Forget Paypal. Dad would like to talk to you. Please email him your phone number. Or email me, he will see it quicker since he is not going online. On top of all his other troubles, his keyboard won't work and he's too weak to try and figure out why.
Awaterlog@gmail.com
If you are willing to reach out, Dad wants to reach back. But give him a day to shake off the sedation.
Just bought your book! Glad to support you! Love your blog! Very insightful and think you are doing a great thing. Get this stuff out, cause it is damning to the church..at least the current form. I am one of them. I think it is way to faith based history and not actual history. Just tell the dang truth if you are god's church! (Fyi, inactive for 15 years but I also served in the Independence Missouri Mission..but in 1998-1999...not two years???? Nope..lost my testimony while I was out...fyi I was reading the work and the glory while I was called...pretty cool, very faith based history)
My brother is is exactly like you, he can accept fallacy's in the church history and still believe in the gospel. He actually recommended me to your blog about Polygamy and Brigham Young. I see the church in black and white. He does not. I can't accept it as a true church...but I think that is your premise. It is not about the church but the gospel, as it was restored to Joseph Smith.
Anyway, just wanted you to know you got all of my 7 dollar Kindle purchase and look forward to reading your comments. Keep posting!
@ everybody talking about Charity
I have been camping and without phone and internet (which was quite nice) for a while but I hope you are ok with me bouncing back into this discussion.
First off, thank you for piston the verses in Moroni 7. They definitely have deeper meaning than at first glance. They match up with Corinthians 13 very well. In these chapters we see clearly that Charity has nothing to do with one's actions. Even if someone is willing to give their body to be burned or tortured for God, this does not mean they have Charity, and even if they are willing to give all of their goods to feed the poor, this means nothing. So be careful how you judge people.
I happen to know that Moses, Elijah, Enoch, and quite a few others have been given this gift in the past. You cannot simply read from the Old Testament and judge that they did not have Charity because of how their works are perceived by your own intellect.
It is true that a man or woman can reach the point where they have the ability to no longer sin. This does not mean they are not capable of it though it just means that their spirit is in full power of their body and if they choose to sin they are mocking God and they "crucify Him afresh".
If a man or woman is translated their body is no longer corruptible and satan has no power to tempt them.
This is a deep topic but I will share one thing that God has told me and that is that no one on this earth has garments of God. Also look into Isaiah 59 for a prophecy of LDS garments if you are curious.
When one reaches a certain spiritual level their spirit has become so illuminated that the only way for them to remain in the body is to have the veil of darkness taken off and to receive the "robes of light" or the garments of light I righteousness etc.
I would suggest making a prayerful study of this topic.
All Jesus had to do on the mount of transfiguration is take off this garment and the disciples would see His glory. This is why Ham was cursed for sneaking in to the tent to look at Noah when his garments were off. He wanted to see his dad in a transfigured state.
This is the same as the mantle or the garment that the woman knew if she had faith she would only have to touch it to be made whole.
When one receives this garment they are protected from evil and people are protected from them who are not ready to behold that kind of glory.
Also manna is another piece of this equation and is the other meat Christ had that the disciples "knew not of"
We will know when someone has Charity and when we ourselves are ready I receive it when we can be given these powerful garments that have been lost from the earth for centuries. The Spirit has told me that we are getting close and people are finally learning to trust in God over men.
Don't believe anything unless the Spirit testifies to you that it is true but don't discount anything either. )
God bless you, Amy, for nurturing your dad and Connie. While it is consistent for your dad to feel shy about taking donations from his friends there are many who would count it an honor. I doubt it will put his mind at ease but there are bloggers out there making comfortable five-figure livings from reader donations alone. Surely we can pitch in several hundred dollars--or several thousand dollars! Knowing your dad he'd put anything he considered excess to good use sharing with folks he believes need it more than he and Connie. To Zion. To the triumph of charity.
Rock,
Don't know you but I love you and your wife will get better quickly. It is good to see people reaching out in love.
Friar tuck offering money I hope softens some hearts. I think whoever Friar Tuck is will be a great warrior of God. Few have such tenacity and gumption. I have found few LDS members who are willing to truly stand up for their beliefs or who even will talk about the gospel with me.
I don't condone vulgarity and missed most of the posts that are now deleted but I have lost my temper and said things many times in my life that were unwarranted and there is no doubt many responses to Friar's comments were made in a less obvious way but were still intended as attacks and personal slights.
Anyway don't know why I went off on that but I do appreciate all of the people commenting and for the person that said we are playing make believe I understand how you can believe that but I am guessing you have not felt the power of God. Therefore you are not really accountable for your beliefs but someday you will have no cloak to cover you.
@Micah
Your parable is about Joseph Smith and whoever your idol is from this generation. Me careful about the building you have gone into because the Chief Cornerstone may not be in line with the person you are following and the building you find yourself in might be called "great and spacious" and have no foundation.
Nate, there are some things you have said that are not comfortable to me--
congratulations on getting away from technology; BIG WOW!
I can't answer right now, but I need to share some things with everyone on here--
@ Noname
That is not surprising. A Catholic gets uncomfortable when someone brings up the crusades or if you talk about the doctrine of the nicene creed being false. They then believe their discomfort is a warning that what they are hearing is false.
If you point out falsehoods in anyone's believes they will be uncomfortable or if you present new truths that are not in that person's personal paradigm they will be uncomfortable and many times if this persists they will experience cognitive dissonance so strong that they feel darkness and oppression because their strongly held belief is under attack.
The Jews felt darkness when they heard the words of Jesus and it made them so uncomfortable that they thought His teachings must not be true. Be careful that when you feel discomfort you do not perceive that to be God telling you something is true or false because it is actually yourself or the adversary trying to convince you to not pay attention to something presented.
If you pass off something without the Holy Ghost telling you that it is false you are practicing idolatry because you are trusting in your own judgement and logic or the judgement and logic of other men.
God never speaks through feelings of discomfort or darkness and if I feel those feelings when someone speaks something that may mean satan only wants to keep me from knowing that the words that person speaks are truth. That is why we must pray and receive an answer from the Holy Ghost on anything before we can judge it to be true or false.
So if you can tell me that you have received a revelation that anything I have presented is false I would love to hear about that revelation and how it was conveyed and what was spoken to your spirit and I will certainly listen and pray about it myself. Otherwise you are only trusting yourself and I can't give your objections any weight at all because your discomfort at come from indoctrination that you do not want to let go of.
Noname,
I am wondering if this goes back to whether Joseph Smith was a "fallen prophet" and then everything after that. Do you believe Joseph Smith received and taught a fullness of the gospel? If so then you will probably not be open to much that seemingly contradicts what he taught and everything outside of that tight little box that contains a small portion of truth and many falsehoods will be very uncomfortable.
That is why religion is so nice for so many people because they find a group of people that feel the spirit from time to time together and then they fill in all of the gaps thy God hasn't revealed with doctrines of men and then they all convince each other that it is all true and they alone have the truth.
The hard truth is that you cannot trust any person on this earth. We can trust God and God alone to teach us the truth. If I remember right it was you who stated maybe Joseph Smith should not have done much else besides translate the Book of Mormon. (If I am wrong I apologize and this is directed at someone else)
If that is the case then Joseph Smith was worse than "fallen". He would have had to profess that God was commanding many things that He was not commanding and manipulating thousands then and millions now into conforming to a system that is only partially true. Many on this forum state that he was gullible and trying to please people and he overstepped.
Compare this to Baalam who was not even a prophet of Israel who said that he "would not go beyond the word of The Lord". This is a very serious accusation against Joseph Smith and cannot be passed off as just a weakness or a mistake.
If Joseph was claiming things like the "degrees" (another masonic word) of glory were revealed from God when they came from Sidney Rigdon then he was evil in doing so. Period. I have a testimony that he was a prophet. I also have a testimony that he became an adulterer and sinned big time with polygamy. The fullness was never restored and the time will come when it will be. I pray we all may see it.
Nate,
I am happy to hear that you understand that polygamy is adultery. That is a huge and wonderful.
I appreciate you sharing your other beliefs also. Though I do respectfully disagree with most of them. But I honor your right to your own opinions and beliefs.
And I do agree that everyone has their own 'Gospel' or their own 'truths', the Catholics, the LDS, etc, and every person in those religions.
Everyone is sure that God has taught them the truth, even though everyone believes opposite things. So since God is not a God of confusion and doesn't change, some of us or all of us are wrong and our inspiration didn't come from the source we thought it did.
I agree that we need the Holy Ghost and revelation from God to understand and discern real truth and Christ's Gospel. But the Holy Ghost 'alone' is not enough to discern truth, (for no one is so righteous and in tune, at least no one I have ever heard of, past or present) to discern what Spirit our revelation is coming from. We must 'prove & test' even our own revelation, as well as anyone else's, for Satan gives us as much or more revelation that sounds wonderful & right to us, as God does.
Discerning which Spirit it came from is the hard part, that even prophets can't usually do very well.
Thus we also need to understand and use Christ's words to judge the actions and words of those who profess to be knowledgeable, righteous or prophets. We also need to understand and possess Charity ourselves, to tell if someone else has it or not.
So we need the Holy Ghost, Christ's teachings, and Charity in order to make sure our inspiration or anyone else's is true or not.
I know you might disagree and that's ok, I don't expect you to believe what I believe, I am fine with agreeing to disagree.
But I think it's wise to realize that everyone (including ancient and modern so-called prophets) has their own Gospel, and opposite beliefs from everyone else, opposite even from Christ. So since no one can prove their version correct and true, we will all have to wait til the next life to see who was right and who was wrong.
The only problem is, if we find we are wrong it will be too late to earn Eternal Life if we allowed ourselves to be deceived in this life, or worse to think we couldn't be deceived (pride).
Thus it's wise to be humble & teachable and assume we are deceived in many ways, and continually try to discern how we are being deceived, by false spirits, by false or fallen prophets (ancient & modern) or by those around us who may believe they are 'sure' & testify that God has told them things, even though those things are opposite to Christ's words or they aren't even living Christ's Gospel and have Charity.
For I believe our own intellect, wisdom and feeble mortal judgement is unfortunately all we have to go on, to judge whether our inspiration is true or whether those who claim to be prophets are true & right, or whether what is written in the scriptures is true or right or whether those around us are truly Christlike and have Charity or not, which is very easy to discern, if we too have Charity and really follow Christ's laws.
@ BK
Thank you and yes i am happy to agree to disagree and I don't ask or expect anyone to believe anything I say. I respect your position and I find that I can learn from almost anyone if I am open enough to consider what they are saying. I am just saying that we can't trust anyone, even ourselves unless the Spirit confirms something to be true.
I like how you said people have "different gospels". I believe that many times what we perceive to be different religious views are actually just different ways of looking at the truth. Reminds me of the elephant analogy where people feel different parts of the elephant without realizing that they are only understanding a small portion of it.
Disagreement is fantastic as long as there is mutual respect I think and enough humility to listen to the other person's perspective without pre-judging what they have to offer.
I still have to state that I don't know how a person could know what Christ's words were unless the Holy Ghost told him/her what they were. You suggested that the fact that the 4 gospels of the New Testament are in harmony with each other somehow makes them more valid.
I would argue that we have many apocryphal versions of the erroneous idea that brigham Young's voice and figure changed into joseph Smith as if Joseph was possessing his body. They all seem to be in harmony with one another but that doesn't make the story true. (Besides so what if he did sound and look like joseph? Why didn't they rely on the spirit?)
Yes I do agree with the idea of false revelation. There is a test in 1 John 4 to detect if any spirit is from God or not. This along with the fruits of the Spirit are both tests given from God.
Unfortunately people today trust in their own logic or the logic and teachings of other's above the teachings from God. Plus most people really don't believe they can get answers from God that are sure answers and so they just simply won't.
Like Laman and Lemuel saying that The Lord "maketh no such thing known unto us". Nephi was frustrated they didn't have the faith to simply ask God.
The other fall-out from this is that people tend to go with their own feelings and comfort and "follow their own spirit" and at times claim this is revelation from God and they never have sure knowledge about anything.
If following Christ's teachings are a matter of practicality then you might as well follow Buddha's teachings because they teach the same code of conduct.
Anyway I am sure I have many false conceptions that is why I would love to hear of any contradictory revelations but I have to follow what I know to be the Holy Ghost because this is the Spirit that has cleansed and healed me through faith in the atonement and that tells me Jesus is the Christ. If I can't trust the Spirit I can't trust anything.
@Nate,
Wow you're stacked. You don't even know what I am going to say--
You know Rock talks about the 'middle ground'--
but I am finding many LDS (in and out the church) becoming very extreme in many ways, and yet they all claim revelation. When we begin to teach our revelation to others--
then we can end up in a not so healthy place.
Moroni 7; I don't have it yet--
but I know what you are speaking of; I am familiar with it.
Maybe you don't realize how your words sounded to *me*--
but it did sound to *me* as though you were going to a place of, "don't do good for others; it's how you feel that matters."
Now I know you offered help to Rock, etc.
I am highly aware of the truths being taught there, in Moroni 7 (I don't read the bible anymore, but I am no longer trying to encourage anyone to read just the Book of Mormon, because it's like trying to stop an enormous river; LDS have to their bible with a little Book of Mormon tacked on--LOL!)
I am no longer calling myself LDS; I have no community of faith among LDS--none at all. I have been left out in the cold, except this blog and my husband and sister and her family--
I am a Mormon, because I have the Book of Mormon.
Throughout the Book of Mormon the people are chided for not taking care of the poor--
Yes, without charity it can be quite terrible; I've done that in the past--
now I strive to give my best, not my leftovers or seconds.
So, I was uncomfortable with that, and you took it to places it didn't need to go.
I perceive you are young, Nate. :)
@noname
I can relate to your being "left out in the cold". No doubt you have been and will be blessed for your sacrifices and faith. I was a bit presumptuous and think you have returned the favor.
No, I do not believe in inaction of idleness. But yes, I definitely agree with the prophets that actions of any sort do not equal charity. Works do not create faith or bring the Spirit or bring Charity. If I were to teach anything else it would be a lie. That does not mean I am a proponent of just sitting around.
The Book of Mormon teaches "see that you have faith, hope and charity, and THEN you will always abound in good works."
The fact is that we can not possibly do a good work if we don't have the Spirit, and trying to do a good work to get the Spirit is just folly.
I understand that the chance that anyone will have the faith to pray about anything I write (until they get an answer from the Holy Ghost) is small. I also understand they are strange ideas to most and foreign ideas cause discomfort. But again what can a person trust in if they can't trust what they perceive to be the Holy Ghost? At some point we will have to get comfortable with the idea of discussing revelations because it actually ought to be a daily occurrence according to the Book of Mormon.
If you are not in a religion you must assume no religion holds the gospel and if you assume no religion holds the gospel then I would guess you would admit the only way to find the gospel is to plead with God that He will teach it to you. If we won't do this then we will never find more truth.
I know that the Book of Mormon is true and apparently there is not a people on earth who has followed the Book of Mormon sufficiently or exercised faith like the brother of Jared or they would have received the "greater things" promised. I have found that some things that make me uncomfortable are things that I learn to be true in the future and I should have had the faith to ask God about the subject in the past but at the time the idea was so foreign and "out there" that I "supposed I knew of myself" that it wasn't true because the idea made me uncomfortable.
Nate,
Thanks for your great response. But again I would ask, 'How do you know for sure the right Spirit is talking to you and it's not your own mind or the Adversary'? For even prophets have been easily deceived thinking it was God talking to them when it was really Satan.
People of all different religions say, believe and experience the same things as you, yet we know that they are not all getting revelations/inspiration/healings/ cleansings, from the same Spirit.
But Christ's teachings are easy to read, prove, understand and live, if one will just do that. Even a child can understand Christ's simple laws and they seem to know them in their hearts without even studying them.
You are right when you say some things that Budda taught are the same things Christs taught, but not everything. That is because love and the Golden Rule is a universal law that Christ was not the only one to preach and understand. Even Walt Disney understood and taught true love, but that doesn't make him a prophet or mean everything he said & did was right and true.
It is us adults who come up with confusing contradicting complex doctrines that need a huge study to even understand, if possible.
I believe everyone understands Christ's laws deep down. Everyone understand Karma and that we reap what we sow, etc. Everyone understands the Golden Rule, yet very few seem to follow it. Everyone wants True Love but I don't know anyone willing to give it. Christ didn't teach anything that people didn't already understand, they just weren't living those universal eternal laws and didn't want to live them, that's why his teachings were rejected by everyone, then and today.
If we don't have the Holy Spirit/Charity, we will reject Christ's teachings, for they are too hard, too much sacrifice. That is why the Spirit is so vital, for it helps us have the strength to acknowledge and really live Christ's laws.
There is nothing new that God will present to us, Christ's Gospel is all clearly spelled out in the New Testament.
Even if we had a true prophet among us today, he would only repeat Christ's words/teachings found in the NT, he would not teach any more or any less or any different then what Christ taught.
The way we know false doctrine or false prophets is because they will preach 'contrary' or more or less to Christ's words.
And again, it's easy to prove that Christ's words found in the NT are true, we just have to live them to test them out, very few are willing to do that, so they come up with all sorts of other Gospels that are easier.
I have never heard of anyone who could tell by the Spirit 'alone' if the Holy Spirit was really talking to them or not, or anyone who could judge correctly someone's 'fruits', for even evil people can produce just as much good looking fruits as righteous people can, often more so.
That is why Joseph Smith said most people easily fall for false prophets, because they say and do the same things as true prophets. The only difference is true prophets have charity, but only those with charity can see it in others.
Even Christ's early Apostles had lots of trouble with false prophets deceiving the people of their day, because these false prophets looked better then the Apostles, they showed so many seemingly 'good fruits', like healings, miracles, teaching truth, and all manner of wonderful things. The people easily fell for them.
While the Apostles would try to tell the people that simple 'charity' is the real and only test they could trust and count on to discern people, prophets or revelation.
But of course the catch is that people have to have charity themselves to be able to discern it in others and hardly no one does, then or today.
Nate, Part 2 -
Christ said the one sure test of discerning his true disciples, is whether or not they have charity, he didn't say judge by the Spirit, for he knew how everyone is so easily led astray by false spirits they just think are Holy Spirits.
We can't automatically be sure the right spirit is really teaching us, inspiring us, appearing to us, confirming something to us, healing/cleansing us, etc, without something else concrete to judge our inspiration by, which would be Charity/Christ's teachings.
I have known so many people who profess to be cleansed, healed, promised eternal life, saw God & Christ, etc, etc. yet they do not have Charity and they do not live a Christlike life or even follow Christ teachings. They actually teach and do the opposite.
So I do not believe it's just a matter of seeing a different part of the elephant, it's not the same animal at all.
When people teach a different Gospel then Christ's it's a different Gospel, for God is very exact and doesn't change and it's a very narrow straight path to eternal life. Charity being the key. It's very black and white. It's charity or nothing.
So back to square one, we, or even prophets, cannot always discern the Holy Spirit from the Adversary's Spirit, for both can feel & seem the same.
The Holy Spirit actually usually leads us by teaching us truth anyway, not by vague wonderful feelings, warm fuzzies or tinglings & burnings within us, which the Adversary or our minds can easily duplicate. False prophets have taught us to believe in such 'feelings' & impressions' by the Spirit, while Christ
But when we feel the Spirit teaches or tell us something, God expects us to 1st 'prove & test' if that truth is correct or not, by comparing it with Charity and Christ's teachings.
But if we do not have Charity we will not be able to do that well enough to keep from being deceived and led astray, no matter how right & inspired by the Spirit we may think we are.
I used to also think all we needed was the Spirit to learn and discern things, but now I see how I and everyone else is so easily deceived by things that seem to come even from 'the Spirit'.
@Nate, I wasn't trying to point out falsehoods; I was pointing out that you are coming on strong; you exude energy--
Even when I'm terribly ill I can manage a few minutes/day to type what I believe. I don't expect others to believe it, and I wasn't even thinking "false" with regards to your words, just maybe borderline extremism.
I don't even know if it was you who said this:
I understand how you can believe that but I am guessing you have not felt the power of God. Therefore you are not really accountable for your beliefs but someday you will have no cloak to cover you.
Yes, it was you, Nate. :)
I have recently become very aware of a tragedy/sad happening in the 'church'--
there are quite a few people who cannot feel God. They do all the 'right' things, but they can't feel Him.
David O. McKay could not, and there were those who were outraged that he was made the prophet. My own grandmother, who knew McKay quite well; he and her father were personal friends, loved him for it, because she couldn't--
I've known such people, and believe me, their lives are hard. Many, if not a huge most, leave the church and head towars one of the 'a's, because there is no place for them in the church:
--you have covered sins
--you aren't trying hard enough
I have realized that, in the church, we don't even use the Book of Mormon verse to help these people (Mosiah 26:15-16, Alma 19:9-10, Alma 56:47-48, 3 Nephi 12:2); how hard-hearted are *we* in all our puffiness and our pride over having spoken with God. No, it worries me. All over the bloggernacle people are told that if they don't see God, they are doing something wrong.
Where have our heads (and hearts) been?
We don't even warn little children this might happen.
I watched someone near and dear to me do all the 'right' things and be so much earnest than her peers, who would get up and cry at the pulpit and go to EFY and come home bouncing, "oh, oh, oh, it was SO amazing; I had SO many spiritual experiences" and all the leaders grin until their lips got tight--
and, yes, began to frown at her--the heathens!
and my precious loved one cringed and pulled back and got closer and closer to the edge of not being there anymore.
WHAT was *I* thinking? I served a mission. But what we foolish and spiritually immature missionaries did was follow the teaching plan (or the discussions if you're older like me)--
heartless, heartless--
WE HAVE to prepare these precious and choice young people who have a different path, so they can at least TRY to believe on others' words, but, no, we push them out. We don't want them there. I can testify to that, because I saw it happening, and I stood by like a lug!
*tears*
So, please, "have no cloak to cover them"--
What kind of God do you believe in, Nate.
I believe in One who knows what each man/woman's heart holds--
A few years ago after probably fifteen years, my young adult (on the sunny side of 20, farther from 30)
closed what she calls the "God box"--
She said, "if he visits me I'll say 'hi'"--
Rock has been helping her, but--
I'm snatching, snatching, grabbing, grabbing, REPENTING for having been such a church sheep.
I know I could have reached her, but those blasted programs get in and choke everyone--
So, check your extremity meter when you say anything, please.
I'm terribly ill right now--and that's that.
Below is your quote, Nate, the one that worried me. I'm not hard-hearted to you; I am just concerned about some basic attitude of "those who disagree with me disagree with the Lord"--
I pray constantly, but I have no more time to pray about all the 'truths' you talk about than fly to the moon. My life is in huge crisis right now.
I believe most people are there now.
I hope Jesus comes soon--
If you point out falsehoods in anyone's believes they will be uncomfortable or if you present new truths that are not in that person's personal paradigm they will be uncomfortable and many times if this persists they will experience cognitive dissonance so strong that they feel darkness and oppression because their strongly held belief is under attack.
And one last note if I may, because you asked specifically if anyone has had any revelation on these matters...
Yes, like you, I believe I have learned many of my beliefs from the Holy Spirit, things that also are in harmony with Christ's teachings, but they are opposite what you say the Spirit has told you.
This is a prime example of the dilemma I bring up. Either one or both of us are being taught/inspired by a false spirit who we only 'think' is the Holy Spirit. So what is your opinion on how do we know which one that is?
How would you say you or I would know which one of us is wrong or what parts of our beliefs are wrong? How would anyone listening to us know which of us is right, if either, according to your opinion?
I sincerely would like to know how you would solve that dilemma, for it is played out with every person we all come in contact with.
Everyone thinks they are right and the God is enlightening, leading, teaching them, yet everyone believes completely opposite things that could never be part of the same animal.
If you say the Spirit told you Brigham Young or Joseph Smith was a prophet and I said the Spirit told me they weren't and that we should be vary leery of much of what they taught, then where does that leave us?
Even Joseph Smith knew the answer. He said we go to Christ's teachings to find out who is really inspired by God or not. For anything or anyone that teaches 'contrary' to Christ 'proves' itself false. Christ's apostles taught the same answer. Go back to the words of Christ to prove all things.
Thus it's not enough to say or think the other person is wrong and we are right and inspired by the right Spirit, we have to prove it, by showing that it agrees with Christ.
Christ is our rock, not Joseph Smith, or the Book of Mormon, or the Bible, or even the Spirit or an angel from heaven, for all those things can be wrong, very very wrong.
The only things we can trust in this world are Christ's few words. If his words in the NT are not true, then nothing can be trusted and anything goes, and no one can claim to have the truth more than anyone else.
But for myself, I have proven Christ's words to be true, and thus I judge everything I hear on earth or from heaven, by those words.
For that is what Christ said to do and I only believe in Christ, not in Joseph Smith or anyone else who taught or lived contrary to Christ, no matter how much 'good fruit' or miracles or service they may have otherwise done or brought forth, for most false prophets/persons bring forth those things to deceive people by.
@ BK
I think you make a good argument. We each have to weigh our decisions and I feel strongly that we must come to know the language of "the Spirit" and only can trust in that. And the fruits I am talking about are the fruits of the Spirit, not the fruits of actions that people outwardly see.
Someone could make a good but false argument that the fruits of Jesus are evil. They could argue His teachings have brought countless deaths and judgement and wars etc so we can't judge anyone by the outward appearance.
I would ask you if you really believe that the New Testament contains everything Jesus taught? And if it was simple why the thousands of Christian denominations that cannot agree on anything? Any student of history would know the New Testament was hand picked accounts and much could have been changed of left out. The end of John talks about how only a drop in the bucket of what Jesus did was recorded and the earth couldn't contain the volumes that could be written on His works.
The Book of Mormon states that only a hundredth or less of what he taught was recorded. I just don't think it is a logical statement that a prophet would only repeat what is in the New Testament.
Also please show me in the New Testament where it teaches us how to receive Charity plainly? Yes we know we must gain this all important gift but how do we gain it? A true prophet would guide us to learn the language of the Spirit and to truly obtain charity. Otherwise we can only rely on God Himself to teach us if a prophet of this sort is not to be found.
Thank you for your kindnesses. I was both gratified and alarmed to find 120.00 in donations had been sent to my Paypal account. I'm overwhelmed by your kindness, and my thanks go to those who felt moved to assist us. But please, these donations, although we can certainly put them to use, are not as desperately needed as some may think. We will be okay. The Lord is providing. (And yes, one way the Lord is providing is by inspiring some of you, our friends, to come to our aid, but I don't want to take money from you that you would otherwise be able to give to those who are much more worthy than we are, and in greater immediate need.)
What would assist us more than anything else is for as many people as possible to spread the word about my book, so we can get that conversation going to a wider audience regarding how our beloved church has gone astray and what can be done to bring the focus of the Saints back to a reliance on Christ rather than on the institution itself.
(Ironically, the one person we have not heard from since he seemed to be reaching out yesterday is Friar Tuck, after we asked him to at least send a PM or email. Oh well, I suppose he values his anonymity.)
As I'm sure most of you who have been posting here have seen already, I crawled out of the swamp this morning and posted what I feel is an important chapter from JJ Dewey's work, Infallible Authority. I hope you'll read and share that one, as I'm too exhausted already from writing this to promote it online as I normally do.
Love and light to all, And thanks for your friendship during this time when I feel completely weakened and helpless,
Rock
Rock. I tried to leave a comment about a week ago, but I realized I said something I shouldn't ought to have so I deleted it. I found your book a welcome relief to my troubled brain and after reading it concluded I will remain with the saints and I pray they'll leave you alone. I suppose you have read Brother Malone's blog as we all have done. I read the book in one night after getting home from a long day here in Brooklyn, NY.
@BK
The questions you ask, how to determine what is Holy Spirit and what is not, are good ones.
Does the spirit inspire doubt? Does the spirit tear down? Does the spirit upbraid you or others? Does the spirit accuse, fault find, belittle, put down, contend, defraud, steal, add to or take away in a destructive way? Does the spirit inspire within a desire to control others?
All these above spiritual impulses and ones similar are of the devil.
The Holy Spirit is quite, non violent, does not argue, does not cause fear, contention, or doubt. But says peace to the weary soul, speaking reassurance, joy and gives strength to weak.
The Holy Spirit edifies, builds up brick by brick, one brick at a time. Slowly, but surely, taking the time to build your house right so when the winds blow and rains descend, you will not be over come.
Which, incidentally, if you are overcome, as I was about 15 years ago that means God didn't do the building of our house, but some other spirit.
The Holy Spirit only says good things! The Holy Spirit supports all people in the church and out of the church, in the manner they need supported. Albeit some people are best supported by God jerking the rug out from beneath them...
A paradoxical rug jerking idea, but the truth? (example?) When God killed nearly all the Canaanites off. Why? What was the crime? Would a just God kill a whole race of people for child sacrifice to Molech? Because he did! Which leads up to my next comment.
The Holy Spirit defends the innocent. The Spirit of God protects His own. Leading them in paths of safety, wisdom, counsel of God. God reveals himself to those who really want to know Him.
Counter Point... The Spirit of God does not beat up the wicked, for he send the rain upon the wicked and the just man together. He is without respect to persons, but seeks to bless all men.
And to those men who are just playing games, God allows them their games, unhindered, without argument, free to choose their way without Him.
God is peace, and so are His people.
Any spirit which promotes anything but peace, love, joy, the clean, the pure, the powerful and the positive, be wary.
If the spirit does not speak of Jesus Christ as Saviour and having come in the flesh, watch out!
If the Spirit seeks to control freedom of expression, it is not of God.
@BK
Do not suppose because God (may) have spoken 1 word to you, that He cannot speak another word to another totally separate individual. In a seemingly separate and opposite way, according your interpretation.
My not really knowing your circumstances It's hard for me to judge.
But in the RLDS Church, a major problem is contention. They've been contending with Mormon's for so long, that they cannot quite when it comes to contending themselves, and they keep contending, to the division of the church.
The RLDS often never realize that Godly advice given to me and my life situation, will not work for you and your life situation.
We RLDS as people aften assume God is a cookie cutter God. That because He told Joseph Smith and company to "gather" to Missouri, that all must gather. We forget the D&C also talks about those people God has "gathered" in the "outlying areas" Or "outlying lands" round about Zion.
All people forget God is a living God. He sees you and I, He hears us speak, He watches, observes and notices us, our thoughts and inner most emotions. God hears and sees all.
He is aware of all.
People because they lack this awareness, assume God is like them. I know I sure used to think this way. I would assume God was limited in the way I was limited.
My mistake as God informed me.
James Brian Marshall,
Yes, Just like Christ, the Spirit does create 'doubt' in our false beliefs, the Spirit does 'tear down' brick by brick the false traditions and false beliefs we have acquired, and the Holy Spirit does clearly show us the faults of others and where they error and where we also error.
The Holy Spirit reveals to us the enemies of Christ and those who do not teach or live his commandments.
The Holy Spirit is a Spirit of truth and shows us the evils and awfulness of our situations, our deeds, our church, our leaders, our fellow members, our world, etc.
Sometimes what the Spirit shows us is not pretty, for it reveals the truth, even if that truth is showing us the evils around us and in the Church.
But with that awareness, the Spirit also gives us a calmness and understanding about it all, as it teaches us how wrong we or people and things around us are, so we don't despair and so we know what to do about it, to either repent or to change our course and not associate with error or evil anymore.
It is the Devil who speaks 'soft and wonderful' things to us, who just tells us how wonderful we and our church are, and how 'all is well.' It is the Adversary who doesn't want us to 'doubt' or see things as they really are.
I believe the Holy Spirit teaches everyone the same principles of truth, if people are righteous then they will learn and be told the same things.
But most everyone 'thinks' the Holy Spirit is teaching them things when it is often really the Adversary, so that is why everyone believes different things and says they learned it from God. But few test their revelation (or a prophet's revelation) against the words of Christ to see if it's true or not, they just assume the revelation or confirmations are right.
The Holy Spirit also tells people the same things that Christ taught and never teaches contrary to the words of Christ found in the 4 Gospels.
While I don't believe Joseph was a true prophet anymore or that he was told by God to restore Christ's Church, nor do I believe that the RLDS Church is/was a true church of Christ either, but I do believe the RLDS Church was a far better church in it's beginnings then the church led by Brigham Young, for the RLDS did not practice polygamy and they tried to follow Joseph's teachings much more then the LDS Church did. But in time it appears the RLDS Church caved to many of the same precepts and falsehoods that the LDS Church has.
No one needs a church or prophet to be righteous, in fact those things usually hinder people from becoming righteous because churches and prophets are not perfect like Christ and can easily lead us astray without knowing it.
We all have personal access to Christ's words and to the Holy Spirit, both of which will tell us 'all' things that we should do.
I believe the safest route is to just follow Christ and live his commandments on our own, instead of asking for the Gospel to be filtered to us through fallible unrighteous leaders who don't really follow Christ themselves and who ask for and pocket our tithing and don't use it as it should be used.
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