Friday, February 14, 2014

Bare Necessities: How To Calculate What You Owe In Tithing

Previously: The Book of Mormon Cultural Reading Project

Although it is well established in the Lord's Law of Tithing that He requires only ten percent of a person's increase as a tithe rather than ten percent of total wages as commonly assumed (see my post, "Are We Paying Too Much Tithing?"), some members of the church are still left with unanswered questions. If we are to tithe on the money we have left over after our basic expenses have been met, how do we figure out which expenses are proper to exclude before we pay our tithing? How do we adequately define "necessary living expenses"?

Since I wrote my piece on tithing back in December 2012, I still get inquiries from readers who tell me they wish Church leadership would provide some basic guidelines that would help them understand exactly what counts and what doesn't.

As Jonathan Streeter reveals in a recent post on his blog, Thoughts On Things And Stuff, "I
t turns out that the Church has made an explicit, clear, comprehensive and unambiguous statement on what constitutes necessary living expenses. They just don’t want the members to read it."

Brother Streeter just completed a remarkable four part series on tithing, and I asked him if I could present his final chapter here as a Guest Post. I hope you'll read all four parts in the series (they are linked in the article below); and I think once you read Part Four below, you will have all the answers you need to calculate a proper tithe to this Church.

One caveat: some information presented here has been excerpted from an official Church publication, and may not be suitable for all viewers.  If your testimony is anchored in the gospel of Jesus Christ as restored through the prophet Joseph Smith, you ought to get through this just fine; but if your testimony is centered on faith in the structural LDS Church and its leaders, you might find some excerpts from that publication that could challenge your testimony. Members in the latter category are encouraged to skip this article and go do something else.

That said, I present this month's guest post by Jonathan Streeter:


LDS Tithing – The Bare Necessities
(Originally posted by Jonathan Streeter at ThoughtsOnThingsAndStuff.com, Feb 11, 2014)

In prior articles discussing the issue of LDS tithing, I have covered how it is not a voluntary requirement for church members who wish to have good standing in the eternities, as well as how there is absolutely no accountability to the membership for how the tithes are spent. Additionally, I have gone back to the original revelation on tithing given to Joseph Smith in 1838 and through a careful study of the contemporary meaning and usage of the language in the revelations demonstrated that tithing was to be paid on net income, after other necessary expenses were paid.

Recall from my prior post that the meaning of the language of the revelation on tithing in 1830's American english, further supported by restored scripture and current policy as found in the official Church Handbook of Instruction, is the following:
“Tithing is 10% of income more than that which we have need.”
This statement begs a very important question – what is “that which we have need?” Many people might assume that net income just means the income that you receive after taxes have been withheld or taken into account, while others may consider essential household and living expenses should also be part of the net calculation. It is quite a quandary.



The Importance Of Getting It Right
Remember that church member's eternal families, celestial standings, and one's own combustibility at the second coming of Christ are at stake! Members have got to get it right. If you don’t pay the full amount owed – then you are not in compliance. There is no halfway into the celestial kingdom or getting just a little bit burned. President Joseph Fielding Smith, quoting Lorenzo Snow, confirmed this in a 1940 General Conference when he stated:
“How do you feel when you give a recommend to a person to come into our Temples who pays no tithing, who only pays half a tithing? How will you feel after this? You will feel that you are taking a sacred responsibility in doing that which God does not approve. He has said that the man who fails to pay his tithing shall have no place among the people of God. Yet here are these Temples erected by the sacrifice of the poor, and to give recommends to parties who pay little or no tithing, how can you feel to take this responsibility? I could not. Part of a tithing is not tithing at all in the eyes of the law that the Lord has revealed” (Joseph Fielding Smith quoting Lorenzo Snow, Conference Reports, April 1940, p. 97).
Clearly this is no trivial matter and getting it right can make all the difference in the eternities.

Vague Guidance
Is there a clear statement by the church as to what constitutes necessary living expenses? If so, then it would greatly remove the anxiety and uncertainty that members may feel when trying to live the law of tithing as we have seen it defined at it’s modern introduction.

On the question of what actually constitutes a necessary expense, Daniel Johnson of the Quorum of the Seventy taught in the 2006 October General Conference:
“There are many reasons that are used to not pay tithing, such as medical emergencies, debts, car or home repairs, educational expenses, and insurance. These reasons and others like them are very real and are lived and dealt with every day by many, if not most, of us. These tax our limited financial resources and, if we are not wise stewards of these resources, may result in the inability to meet our tithing obligation to the Lord.”
(“The Law of Tithing” Oct 2006 General Conference, lds.org)
While it is not specifically stated, the implication is that these bolded items would not qualify as necessary expenses. What one person feels is needed, another might consider a luxury. Should a person with a car payment on a spare luxury Porsche subtract that payment from tithed income the same as a family making payments on a humble used minivan which is their only vehicle? Maybe not, but medical emergencies and insurance are things that most would consider reasonable.

Vague statements like these may have the effect of inducing people to choose to exclude those items from their net calculation but allow the Brethren the ability to state that they never actually said that you should do so. When you consider the threat that you are under if you get it wrong, the pressure is on – it may be safer to overpay than to be found to have “robbed God.” Elder Johnson reinforces this point in his very next statement:
“A lack of compliance with this eternal law is not to be taken lightly and can not only seriously impair our spiritual growth and development, but it can also limit the physical and temporal blessings that we could otherwise enjoy.”
(“The Law of Tithing” Oct 2006 General Conference, lds.org)
With these vague statements and implied threats for noncompliance, what is a member to do? In the absence of a more definitive statement on what is actually a needed living expense – it is often thought safest to simply overpay.

Getting Specific-A Leak Appears
It turns out that the church has made an explicit, clear, comprehensive and unambiguous statement on what constitutes necessary living expenses. They just don’t want the members to read it.

It started with a Wikileaks style disclosure where a secret handbook given only to Mission Presidents was somehow released on the net and made available on archive.org. The author at MormonDisclosures first wrote about the handbook and it’s implications for potential tax evasion in early December of 2012. While there was still some question of authenticity of the manual as an official church document, all doubt was removed a few weeks later when archive.org received a letter from the Intellectual Property Officer of the church requesting removal of the document, thereby verifying it’s authenticity.

The document was promptly removed from archive.org. Like so many things on the internet, however, you cannot put toothpaste back into the tube.

It's Not Sacred-It's Secret
Most of the Mission President's Handbook involves the procedural details of managing a legion of young emissaries as they spread the Gospel of Mormonism abroad. There is, however, a very remarkable appendix at the end of the document which deals very specifically with family finance issues. It is appropriately named Appendix B – Family Finances.

The purpose of Appendix B is to outline the specifics of how the living expenses of the Mission President and his family will be provided for during the term of their service. The introduction states specifically that “the Church reimburses the necessary living expenses” for the mission president and family and then goes on to describe some of the expenses that fall under this category:

“Necessary living expenses” include, but are not limited to those underlined in red. (Mission President's Handbook, pg. 80)

Excellent! we are finally getting some specifics about exactly what constitutes necessary living expenses. Before proceeding it is important to remember where the money comes from that will be “reimbursed” to the mission presidents for these necessary expenses.

Tithes Are The Source
Keep in mind that tithing funds are what are directed towards the missionary efforts of the church – including providing the mission presidents with their needs. Elder Johnson made this clear in his previously mentioned talk:
“How is tithing used? Faithful members of the Church pay their tithing to a member of their branch presidency or ward bishopric. Under the direction of the Lord’s prophet, these funds are then gathered and used to fund the growth and development of the Church throughout the world. Examples of the use of tithing funds are the construction of temples, the financing of the worldwide missionary effort, the building and maintenance of meetinghouses, and other worthy purposes.”
(“The Law of Tithing” Oct 2006 General Conference, lds.org)
This should be no surprise to church members. They have long understood that tithes are directed towards the missionary efforts of the church.

Modest Gifts?
Now examine the above partial list of what falls into the initial category of “necessary living expenses” – no doubt you will find that many of those items concur with your own view. There is, however, the inclusion of modest gifts in this list with the examples of “Christmas, birthdays, or anniversary” gifts.

There are families that have deprived themselves of even modest gifts for these occasions so that they can pay tithing to the church. They consider these tithes sacred fulfillment of their commitment to God. They might find it odd that their sacrifice has been used to provide these mission presidents with the very “necessary” modest gifts that they had to forgo in order to pay tithes.

Would the family that faithfully paid tithes and yet is undergoing foreclosure of their home like to discover that the wife of a mission president received a modest necklace as an anniversary gift, paid for out of those tithing funds? Would the family that paid tithing, but had to forgo Christmas gift giving like to hear that the children of the Mission President received a bounteous Christmas morning full of modest gifts at the tithe-payers expense?

I myself had some very sparse birthdays growing up, as my family had many children and my father worked several jobs to provide for us, and it frequently was not enough. He always paid tithing on the gross. One year I really thought that I would get a surprise party and I wanted to make it easy for my family to make it happen. I asked to be able to spend the afternoon at the library. I thought that this would surely give them the time to set it all up. Upon being picked up and taken home I was asked how I liked my birthday. There was no party. My visit to the library was my gift. The children of mission presidents will never have that feeling. (that being said – libraries are awesome and my parents earnestly did the best they could and I have no complaints. I loved my childhood!)

More Necessary Living Expenses
The section in the Appendix B continues to list other “necessary living expenses” which are to be reimbursed:

(Mission President's Handbook pg. 80)

Here we see some other interesting items. Medical expenses are no surprise – most people would agree that they are necessary expenses. We will see later that these are expenses that are covered in addition to medical insurance coverage.

“Support for children serving full-time missions” – while this is only to be provided if requested, I find it very interesting that it is offered at all. When I was young I was taught that it was my duty to save up to pay for my own mission. Many young men would devote entire summers of work to putting money away so that they could fund their mission. In some cases, when the young man and his family fell short, members of the ward would pitch in by donating money specifically toward that young man’s mission. It was sacrifice on the part of all parties involved. Not necessarily so if you are the son of a mission president.

“Elementary and secondary school expenses” are an interesting category. Tuition and books are not charged in public schools and so tuition implies that the mission president's children will be attending private schools. This may not be surprising in foreign countries, however stateside mission presidents do not appear to be restricted from this benefit. Extracurricular activities are another notable item in this list. There are families which have a difficult time including their children in public school extracurricular activities, many of which require that the family pay into. Additional voice, dance, piano, fencing, horseback riding and other types of lessons can be costly over the years. Many of these are not a common part of the academic landscape of people who struggle to pay tithing. Their struggles appear to be subsidizing a lifestyle for the children of the mission presidents that their own children are being deprived of.

“Undergraduate tuition at an accredited college or university” is quite remarkable. This is the best type of scholarship that one could ask for! It is true that there are standards for what grades are maintained and tuition is only reimbursed up to the cost of and equivalent time at the church sponsored schools, but wow! There are families who spend the decades before their child is of age dutifully paying tithing while not having the money to set aside for their children’s college. This problem is compounded when you think of the number of children that Mormons are encouraged to have. It is simply an impossibility for some with large families of greater than 5 kids and normal levels of income. Sign me up!

Yet More Necessary Household Expenses
For the sake of brevity I will present the pertinent segments from the remainder of the Appendix which describe “necessary living expenses” which are reimbursed to the mission presidents with the notable items highlighted:

Necessary Home Expenses (Mission President's Handbook pg. 81)

Necessary transportation expenses (Mission President's Handbook pg. 81)

Necessary Babysitting (Mission President's Handbook Pg. 81)

Necessary Insurance Premiums are reimbursed (Mission President's Handbook pg. 82)

There are a few comments to be made from this selection of remarkable benefits.
First, the mission home expenses are handled differently and instead of being reimbursed to the mission president, the mission office pays these expenses directly. This does not alter the fact that these are necessary expenses to the maintenance of a home.

Second, it is notable that a “part-time housekeeper and cook” are in this list. I imagine that the many Mormon mothers who, after giving birth to upwards of 4-5+ children, could do with part-time help. The brutal reality is that the cost of so many children combined with the average income means that few if any of these moms will have that benefit. Yet they continue to dutifully pay tithing, believing that they are furthering the work of the Lord, when in fact it appears that they are in part subsidizing a lifestyle that they themselves have no hope of attaining. The high rates of depression among women in Utah may have many factors. I know from personal experience that the demands on a woman in maintaining a home with numerous kids on limited funds without any help can be devastating to their energy, minds and health over the long term. It is good to hear that mission president’s wives won’t risk these pitfalls.

Transportation Expenses” are no big surprise. Many mission areas are spread over a large area and the expenses are an expected and necessary part of the calling. It is notable that family can travel with the mission president and those costs will be reimbursed. If I was a mission president in Europe, Asia or any other exotic locale – you can bet that my family would come with me on any trips I took. Educational travel experience, plus totally reimbursed equals “yes please!” Sadly, many people who struggle to pay tithing have never known anything of traveling to see the world.

Cost of a babysitter” is a very reasonable thing to provide. After rigorous supervision of the part-time housekeeper and cook it really is necessary that the mission president's wife get a break from time to time to accompany her husband to activities. It would be a terrible burden for the mission president's family to provide that out of their own funds rather than the tithes that have been dutifully given for that purpose. This is, of course, sarcasm. I think that every mother who stays at home and does the primary rearing of the children should be given a break as frequently as possible and I don’t care where the funds come from. I imagine that tithing mothers who don’t get these sorts of breaks would rather that they not be the ones subsidizing them for the mission president's wives, but I may be doing them an injustice by saying so.

The Cost of Personal Health and Life Insurance”  - Forget Obamacare – I want LDS Tithing Care! Premium levels don’t matter – tithing will cover it. Deductibles don’t matter – remember that medical expenses not covered by insurance are reimbursed. Prescription medication fees? Who cares! The elderly member who may have stopped taking a needed medication because of the cost involved – yet is still a faithful tithe payer, is happy to make sure that the mission president gets his meds paid for (and his family's too).

Reimbursement
It is good to take a moment to think about the whole reimbursement arrangement for a moment. What does it practically mean?
  • The mission president is responsible to paying for the good or service.
  • The good or service is received
  • The Church reimburses the mission president the cost of the good or service.
  • The mission president now has his original money back, PLUS the benefit of the good or service.
Good to know.

What About Tithing?
Okay, it has been very revealing to examine all of the numerous benefits that the mission presidents receive from coffers that are filled with the tithes of members who sacrifice to do so. The question remains: do the mission presidents pay tithing on all this money they receive for these “necessary living expenses?”

Mission presidents do not pay tithing. (Mission President's Handbook, Pg. 83)
This should really not be surprising. Remember that tithing is paid on net income, which is income after all necessary expenses are paid. All the the reimbursed monies that the mission presidents receive fall under the heading of “necessary living expenses” and so, as I previously described, it is completely appropriate that no tithing be paid on these reimbursed funds.

Certainly, as the above guideline indicates, if the mission president has passive income from other investments, then those incomes are subject to tithing and should be paid as described.

Practical Implications
Now, the above observations are vitally important to any church member. They provide a hierarchy of needs and tithing. If tithing should only be paid out of funds left over after all of these necessary expenses – then if you haven’t put any money into these necessary expenses and you have money left over at the end of the month or year – you should put money into these first:
  • birthday, Christmas and anniversary gifts
  • college savings accounts
  • life insurance
  • health insurance
  • housekeeper and cook
  • babysitting
  • emergency medical expense savings account
  • Private school
  • Extracurricular activities for your children
Seriously. If you have money in your account that you are figuring out tithing for and you have not saved or put money into every single one of the above items (and any more that you can infer from the Mission President's Handbook), then you should put as much money into those things FIRST and then pay tithing on what is left over (if there is anything left over).

Keep in mind that most of these things are things the church has advocated that people be doing anyway. Saving for education, preparing for unexpected medical expenses, providing for the security of unforeseen events are all aspects of family management that the Church has advocated in the past. Housekeeper, cook, and babysitting may all fall under the heading of supporting and nurturing your wife and providing for her physical and mental well-being. Toss in the fact that you are providing employment for another party and it is a win-win-win.

These are responsible, reasonable things that should be a part of every household that can accommodate it and would benefit from it. The Church has taught you the importance of these things – they just didn’t bother to mention that you shouldn’t take tithes out of the funds used to do them. You’ve been doing that voluntarily the whole time out of ignorance which was intentionally inflicted upon you.

After seeing the last article and this one you are completely justified by revelation, scripture and church policy in doing so. If your spouse or bishop raises any objection – please direct them to this article so that they can start modifying their own tithing calculations. Go and spread the Good News!

And don’t forget – the next time you shake a mission president’s hand, ask him how his family likes the gifts that you have funded and how his kids are doing with the college courses that you have subsidized. Maybe check to make sure that he is happy with the life insurance policy that you are funding and ask if his housekeeper/cook is working out.

Why So Secret?
One thing that is remarkable about this handbook is that it is kept completely secret from the membership at large. I think that after the above analysis it is clear why. Many people looking at the example set by the necessary living expenses of the mission president will re-examine their own expenses in a new light and it will have significant impact on the amount of money left over to be subject to tithes. But just how secret is the manual and this arrangement of reimbursed benefits?

 (Mission President's Handbook pg. 80)

 (Mission President's Handbook pg. 82)
You see, the Church forbids the mission presidents from even discussing this benefits package with their own financial advisors or tax attorneys, much less other mission presidents or family members. This could even mean their own wives. Furthermore they are specifically told NOT to report the reimbursed funds for tax purposes. (See the above section on reimbursement.)

It is noted that while the church assures the mission presidents that all applicable tax laws allow this income to not be reported for tax purposes, not all countries have the same tax laws. If the fiduciary arrangement between the Church and the mission president is never revealed, as it apparently was not supposed to be, then no oversight and confirmation of it’s legality can be made.

There is rumor that this may become part of the recently announced case of fraud against the church put forth in the UK. Get the popcorn ready.

Mission President: The Gateway Calling
Keep in mind that the church describes this financial arrangement with mission presidents in the following terms:
“While the Church provides mission presidents with a minimal living allowance, the couples usually have the financial means to supplement that allowance with their own funds.”
(New Mission Presidents Blessed for Exercise of Faith” Church News, 1 July 2011, lds.org)
If you compare what is provided to mission presidents with what a majority of church members have to live with throughout the world, “minimal” is probably not the adjective that you would choose to employ. Perhaps it is considered only minimal compared to the affluence that mission presidents generally seem to come from. (Have you ever met a blue collar mission president?) The ability to accumulate and manage wealth may be a sign of a good administrator, which is part of the selection processes for Mission Presidents, I will concede.

It is interesting to note that four of the current twelve Apostles were mission presidents prior to becoming general authorities (Anderson, Ballard, Scott and Hales). The percentage of the Quorum of the Seventy who are mission presidents is not immediately known to me, but could be the subject of some investigation. It is not unreasonable to consider that since these mission presidents work under the supervision of area general authorities, their performance as mission presidents may have some bearing on whether they are recognized and promoted to General Authority status. If they perform poorly it could only hurt and if they perform superbly it would certainly help.

Most people might say that mission presidents are typically older, seasoned managers with deep scriptural knowledge and in the later years of their life so that they can focus on the work. At least one recent example of a 35 year old man would seem to buck that trend. Ignore the similarity between the last name of that individual and other past church authorities. They are unrelated. Okay, they might be related -but it doesn’t mean anything. Right?

Modest Living Stipends
When Church members hear about the compensation that general authorities receive it is usually called a “modest living stipend.”
“General Authorities give up their livelihoods to serve full-time, so they receive a modest living allowance—enough for them to support themselves and their families. This allowance comes from the Church’s corporate funds, not from tithing funds.”
( Lesson 75, D&C Church History Seminary Teachers Manual, lds.org)

A church itself does not create anything of marketable value. Any money it receives, it does so  predominantly as tithes. If those tithes are invested in the corporate holding of the church and the proceeds are used to pay the general authorities then saying that tithes aren’t used to pay the general authorities is just a matter of semantics. A distortion meant to deflect suspicion.

What would be wrong with paying a modest stipend to the general authorities from tithing? That is what most members assume it goes for anyway. Perhaps if the allowance is somewhat more than modest, it would soften the blow to have it come from a corporate ancillary if the numbers ever leaked out. This is speculation, of course.

If a lowly mission president's “minimal” living allowance includes all the various benefits listed in the Mission President's Handbook as above – I wonder what level of “modest” accommodation full general authorities receive. Could it be that “modest” has a different meaning to those in the Church hierarchy? That may have implications for the hemlines and necklines of the dear sisters as well.

If a mission president's allowance is "modest" then this makes sense as being modest.
Conclusion
The Mission Presidents handbook is one of the first real glimpses that members may have into the lifestyles of the Lord’s Anointed. It is certainly instructive in establishing perspective when it comes to prioritizing essential living expenses as they relate to tithing. But it also demonstrates the extent to which church leaders exist off the sacrifice and tithes of the members. Over the last series of posts I have laid out how tithing is instilled into the minds and hearts of members under threat of losing one's eternal family, burning at the second coming, and is undertaken with no accountability to the membership. It is perpetuated with vague definitions to encourage overpayment, and the very precise information that would be needed to prioritize living expenses is specifically kept hidden from the members.

If you are a faithful tithe payer, I applaud you. I have no doubt that you do so with a sincere belief in God and a firm conviction that paying money to the church is the same as paying money to God.

But I ask you to remember the words of Christ in the New Testament. Did he ask people to give him and his apostles money so that they could do good with it? Or did he tell people to help others directly?

Did Jesus tell his apostles to gather collections from the existing members so that they could spread the Gospel abroad? Or did he tell them to go "without purse or scrip,” trusting in the Lord to provide for their needs?

Much like Wikileaks, the Edward Snowden disclosures, and the Pentagon Papers – the Mission President's Handbook’s availability to the members has the potential of encouraging positive change in the administration which it reveals. “Sunshine is the best disinfectant.”

                                                                           *****

Important Announcement From Blogmaster Rock:
As announced in my last post, henceforth all comments posting on my blog only as "Anonymous" will be deleted.

I respect all reader's wishes to post anonymously, and you may continue to do so as long as at the beginning and/or end of your comment you use some type of unique identifier so that others can tell you from the hundreds of others posting as "Anonymous." With so many commenting under the name "Anonymous," the conversations have become increasingly difficult to follow.  It has also become obvious that some of those posting anonymously are often among the most uncivil; rather than engage in intelligent arguments, some of these people tend to get quarrelsome.  A civil argument advances the dialogue; petty and immature attacks on other's views do not.

Please note that if you are concerned about your privacy, the drop-down feature that reads "Name/URL" already keeps you completely anonymous. When you post using that method, I don't have the ability to track who you are (not that I would want to) and neither does anyone else. So it makes sense to use that feature if you wish to keep your true identity hidden. All you have to do is place whatever username you wish to go by in the "Name" box and ignore the URL part. Of course, if you want to further mislead others, you can put any link in the URL box you choose, such as Youtube.com, Amazon.com, or LDS.org

Those with Google, Yahoo, Wordpress, and other accounts can choose to post under those accounts, which helps to lead others to your own blog if you have one. But seriously, enough with all these people calling themselves "Anonymous." It's getting to be too much.


287 comments:

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none given said...



Oh ye of little faith, do not mock the promises of the Lord. If you had followed the Lord instead of trusting in the leadership of men, you would have built up faith in him and his words, and you would not so easily be blow about by the wind.

For he who builds his house upon a foundation of sand, instead of the rock, will lose his house. For man is weak, and will always fail you.

We all have our agency, exercising it is why we are here, God will not interfere with it. The decision to follow the Lord is always our choice. Only you are responsible for choosing to partake in our salvation. God does not force his gift of the atonement upon anyone. He invites us to partake of his gift we must choose.

28 "Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.
29 "Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
30 "For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."

Placing your faith in the arm of the flesh instead of the Lord, will eventually,lead to a crisis of faith.

Please think before you throw the baby out with the bathwater.

37andholding said...

Go within! That's where you'll find Him if you ask.
Perhaps this is the most important second coming?

Alan Rock Waterman said...

Okay, Engaged19Times, I'll bite. I'm curious to know about these 19 engagements.

engaged19times said...

Its a cult classic kinda line from the Real Housewives of New Jersey. I saw ur warning about posting with a name so...engaged19times popped into my head. Probly cuz i watch more tube and read more celebrity gossip than i pray and read scriptures. I have prayed and read.scriptures more. I go thru cycles.

engaged19times said...

Its a cult classic kinda line from the Real Housewives of New Jersey. I saw ur warning about posting with a name so...engaged19times popped into my head. Probly cuz i watch more tube and read more celebrity gossip than i pray and read scriptures. I have prayed and read.scriptures more. I go thru cycles.

LDSDPer said...

I'm sorry; the scripture about Jesus bringing Zion is in Mosiah--

Alan Rock Waterman said...

Well, it's a relief to learn that YOU are not the one who has been engaged 19 times.

As for watching too much TV -who doesn't?

Unknown said...

@ Robin Hood

Regarding the G&A church being described as forgiving sins in exchange for money - I'm getting more and more uncomfortable with the payment of tithing being included as a temple recommend question. There are lots of other things they don't ask in that interview (like, do you help the poor), and the inclusion of tithing, if nothing else, gives the appearance of priestcraft, since a temple recommend is so strongly equated with worthiness & forgiveness.

@ BK

I very much agree that we should be striving for the law of consecration (100% of surplus to the poor) instead of the lesser (and over-extended) law of tithing as (10% of all income to go into the void with little evidence of helping the poor and abundant evidence of helping Babylon). And I absolutely agree that the story of the rich young man applies to us today and we need to stop trying to interpret it symbolically. Jesus meant what he said literally.

Steven Lester said...

Oh, Rock. Who doesn't watch too much tv? How about moi? I haven't turned the tube on since the last hurricane to hit Texas and I watched it hit on the weather channel. I get the cable connection for free because I subscribe to a really fast version of Comcast's internet offering (well, it's fast when it works).

LDSDPer said...

@ENB,

Yes, I have learned that having unique/special children can bring a parent to his/her knees faster than anything. Also, these kinds of children often bring a knee-jerk reaction in a certain type of personality (who are often church 'leaders')--who want to put a microscrope over the parents--
not a comfortable place. These sorts of issues can and often do lead to impoverishment or at least marginal living on so many levels. I'm sad for what you have been through, because I wouldn't wish it on an enemy, and you certainly sound like a friend--
:)
but it's also good to read of others who have had similar experiences.

@Martin Harris Luther--

I already made enough points to Robin (Hood) about how this happens in governments/corporations (the 'forgiveness' of sins for money)--
but it does happen in the church and not just at tithing settlement.

Sometimes *I* have to be careful what *I* say (using that term collectively, because it could apply to anyone)--
but the fact is that when some wealthy ward members did something unChristlike to a marginally situated (economically) ward member, and it came to *our* attention, we discussed it with a bishop (with whom we were on very good terms), as a "common judge in Israel". We did not ask this bishop to do anything about the situation, just to be aware of it, and during our conversations he let us know that he already knew about it, but "there is nothing I can do."
What was not said was as significant as what was said.
We are aware that he had stepped in and intervened in situations where there was less wrong-doing when the wrong-doer(s) was/were not financially well-off.
He was sad. He knew it was all wrong, but he would not get involved.

LDSDPer said...

oops--

@Martin Harris Luther--

oops, that should have been temple recommend interview time; what is WRONG with me? LOL!

My husband and I became aware that, understanding the circumstances of the wealth of the wrongdoer (in terms of being Christlike, not anything legal)--
was such that even if *we* were paying 10% of our gross wages and *he* was paying only on his profit, the income involved was such that (SO many times more than our income) the loss of his tithing would have been difficult for the bishop to reconcile.

That was particularly discouraging at one point. But it now seems highly amusing. I don't know why; maybe because we are aware that there are angels taking notes. *wink*

Anonymous said...

LDSDPer-
AMEN, about the Celestial kingdom. Through pain in my life I have come to find that it is Jesus Christ I want and the only one that can fill my brokenness. I have not fully sorted my beliefs out, particularly things I was taught as a child growing up in the church. But I do KNOW one thing and that is - Give me Jesus!
Rock-
Thank you for the link to the blog about baptism by fire. It was very interesting. My husband had that experience. I thought he only had it because he was such a "woeful sinner". But recently I had an experience like that also and I realized there is no "gradual" baptism by fire. It is an event and you know when it happens.
Homeschool Mom

LDSDPer said...

oh, homeschool mom--

I am almost chuckling as I write this out, though experiences with Jesus Christ aren't amusing, and I want to make it clear that that is NOT what I am chuckling about.

When I speak with fellow ward members, there are very few who will openly discuss their dependence upon Jesus Christ and their powerful desire to have their lives come into line with His teachings. Sometimes I will bring up Jesus in a setting that is appropriate (where I can tell people want to discuss matters of the spirit, not at a ball game, though i don't go to those, so why am I bringing it up?)

only to find that there is a moment of confusion, of checking what I am up to before they will respond about the importance of Jesus in our lives, in a somewhat cursory way--
because how can they possibly disagree? And yet, they aren't on 'board' with me--

I find it delightful to go out and meet other Christians (some who are very much Christ-led) in the community, because they shore up my faith.

Why is it funny? Because we are SUPPOSED to find that kind of fellowship among *our own*, but often I find it outside the church, among devoted Christians. Not all non-LDS Christians are as devoted to Christ, also, just as not all Mormons have the same beliefs--

My husband and I were discussing some things about which we need to make some choices not long after we had a spirit-filled discussion with a Christian in our community who is very much a 'prayer warrior'--

and I just said, "I think we need to approach the Lord first, before we do anything"--

and he agreed; these people remind me always to pray, pray, pray--

and for them I am grateful; they shore me up--

My experience was not the same as what Rock describes; it was very different, and unlike so many I don't talk about it--
I have felt constrained, actually; I have shared it with very few people--
but I had an experience that put beyond all doubt my complete and total dependence on Jesus Christ, and the love I feel for Him since that experience is powerful, especially in comparison with what I felt before. I had longed for such an experience for years and years, and when I finally had it I had to pay a pretty high price (Alma like, only without having committed egregious sins beforehand)--

Thanks for reading--

:)

Also, I do get concerned; I can understand young people who feel they must be agnostics to be 'honest' at this time, and they can choose whether or not to believe *us* when we share what we have experienced with Jesus. But the fact is that people really can't live on borrowed light. But I wish I could, somehow, help people to see--


Anonymous said...

L DSDPer
I agree with you very much. I teach in YWs. I try to point those girls to Christ. Again and again I do. Sometimes I notice the other leaders squirm a little. I wonder how long can I do this before some calls me out on it. I will continue to speak as the spirit directs as long as I can. The lack of preaching of grace and redemption is a sore point with me. I came to a point in my life when I realized my life was broken. I was not on the path I had been promised at church if I did all the right things. I did the right things but I wasn't experiencing what I had been promised I would. I hadn't learned what to do when life falls apart. I learned very well to do this and this and this and then life will be good to you, but what happens when things fall apart? It took a lot of soul searching to learn to cling to Jesus. I am afraid my greatest comfort during that time of searching did not come from church, but from listening to Christian radio. I am probably getting too personal here, but your comments reminded me of it. Homeschool Mom

Ponderous said...

Church is supposed to guide you towards Christ, once it becomes the focus itself, we wander off the path and get lost.

BK said...

I believe the Church leads people to worship 'other God's before the 'real God', by telling it's members to follow the prophets (who teach contrary to Christ).

The Church just gives token preaching about Christ but doesn't really follow his teachings.

The longer I am away from the Church the more I can see how blinded the members become to do & support so many things contrary to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

How wonderful it would be if there was a Church that really preached & practiced the exact teachings of Christ, instead of the philosophies and commandments of men like the LDS Church does.

How great it would be to find a Church that preached as Christ did, that it's impossible for rich people to get into heaven and that we should give 100% of our excess to the fatherless, and that it's impossible to get a divorce and that polygamy is always adultery in every case in history. And that it's all in vain to build or attend a church if we ignore the fatherless, and if we don't have 'the pure love of Christ' we are nothing and won't make it, even if we are good & honorable church going people otherwise. And that we will lose our salvation if we allow ourselves to be deceived to follow or support false prophets. And that we must continually judge church leaders and those who call themselves prophets, to see if they are truly righteous and have Christlike love and don't accept a penny from the members for their own support.

I can't believe I paid all that tithing all those years to church leaders who used it on themselves or used it to build buildings and businesses, while the poor continued to suffer. Thank goodness I awoke in time to repent from doing that.

I have found that Joseph Smith was right, that it really is the disposition on almost all prophets, apostles, G.A.'s, Stake Presidents and Bishops, or men in general (and even most women), to 'immediately' become abusive and untrustworthy once given a little supposed authority in church, home or society.

Thus God knew we can't and shouldn't trust church leaders to be our middle man for the poor, for as we have seen in the Church, almost all leaders will use it on themselves for their support and for other vain projects for the Church instead of for the poor as it should be.

I believe the main question in the day of judgement will be did we relieve the suffering of the fatherless, in & out of our family, and make sure '100%' of our tithes and offerings really all went to them, by giving it too them directly. For I believe that is how we prove our righteousness.

Charity M. said...

Oh, wow. Wow.
I totally get that many MP's will probably be able to support themselves while serving and perhaps the church's financial services are meant for those who can't afford to pay their own way. I also assume that many MP's don't have small children that will still need care while away, but...

The things that "got me" were:
babysitting
gifts
A COOK!?!?
A HOUSEKEEPER?!?!

Oh, my - I will definitely be looking at my "necessary" living expenses in a much different light from now on.

If I use the cash method and put a certain amount of money into each envelope on pay day, then anything extra will be tithed.

I am actually sort of afraid of what my bishop will say when he sees that I'm paying something like $10 every two weeks. More than that...what will my husband say?

Still, this makes a lot of sense...we are all serving in various capacities anyway...it'd be nice to expand our belts a bit as we struggle to survive. :)

Thanks for this post. I love it! :)

Ponderous said...

We are going through a very difficult time right now. My wife and I have not celebrated birthdays this year and did not exchange anniversary or valentines gifts. My children did receive presents for Christmas thanks to a kind donation.

We have even had to wear our clothes 3 times between washings,because we didn't have enough change to do our laundry.

But, we should all give to the gift budget and tuition fund of those that hold church office. Lets pay their family travel expenses and for a housekeeper, cook, babysitter and even a gardener.

Some people are more highly respected of the Lord and they do not have to experience the reality that some of us go through.

"…they were liberal to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, whether out of the church or in the church, having no respect to persons as to those who stood in need." Alma 1:30


35 Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.

37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.

38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?

39 Why do ye adorn yourselves with that which hath no life, and yet suffer the hungry, and the needy, and the naked, and the sick and the afflicted to pass by you, and notice them not?..

It makes me wonder what scriptures they read from. My family and I no longer attend the "one true church".

BK said...

Yes, I think we have brought a lot of hardship on ourselves in paying too much tithing or paying it at all, especially when we are 'poor' ourselves, because we have let ourselves be deceived & have followed blindly and not searched the scriptures and proved all things on our own.

The Lord can't teach and protect us in our poverty, if we refuse to search his teachings and compare them to the errors from what leaders say and require today.

The truth will set us free, often from financial bondage too.

Why would we ever think it's ok for any man, leader or prophet to live high on the hog or even take one penny from the fatherless or poor, or from anyone at all?

Do we not read the BoM and what Alma and King Benjamin taught about prophets and leaders supporting themselves?

The blind are not only leading the blind, but living off them too.

LDSDPer said...

Charity M.

This is where many people who want to remain in the church forget this:

Matthew 10: (16), partly quoted: "be ye therefore wise as serpents and harmless as doves"

One of the things that I think our present culture (in and out of the church) teaches is transparency. We have to tell everyone everything. We get on television and listen to talk shows, and we hear confessions, and we think that we are safe telling everyone anything about our lives--

to a point.

Tithing should be a personal thing, no matter what. The 1970 First Presidency message gives complete 'permission', if you need it, to make a personal choice about what tithing is for you--

I've read it, and it's very plain.

The important thing, Charity, is to be prayerful about this. The Lord can tell you what to do. You simply don't make a choice like that without taking it to the Lord WITH your husband. Fast, if you need to. The Lord can tell you what is right for you and your family, and you need have no guilt, because of the 1970first presidency statement.
This is for those who want to remain in the church. There are those who have chosen to leave, and I don't condemn them, but we have chosen to remain, for various reasons, not the least of which is that when we prayed about it, we were told to remain.
IF, however, we were honest (?), if we were OPEN about how we feel about manuals and parascripture (following prophets, instead of Jesus), etc.--
we would be closed off and shunned to the point where remaining would no longer be an option.
So we remain quiet; we are harmless, but we are wise.
And it's still hard, but we know we are to do this.
This is OUR choice, and I do not urge those who have left to come back, and I certainly don't appreciate it when *they* tell me I am not being good, because I am staying.
So, pray, pray, pray, pray, pray.

You can pay directly to the church, if you do the D&C way of paying (on interest or increase, rather than gross wages)--
or not.
There are plenty of people who have chosen to continue to pay on the gross who pay directly to the church for many reasons. It's much more private; nobody has to know--
This is just my experience; you can consider it or not.

:)

Alan Rock Waterman said...

Charity M wrote, "I am actually sort of afraid of what my bishop will say when he sees that I'm paying something like $10 every two weeks."

I wonder why you're paying ANYTHING every two weeks, since the First Presidency statement on tithing affirms that tithing is to be paid ANNUALLY?

If you have determined that 10 percent of your increase amounts to about twenty dollars a month, why not hold onto all of it until the end of the year and pay it all then, per the Lord's instructions?

It's apparent to me that paying your tithes in advance is contrary to the very clear wording in the law itself, not to mention the reminder from the First Presidency that tithes are to be paid annually and that "no one is justified in making any other statement."



boyouteast said...

LDSDPer said-
"...for various reasons, not the least of which is that when we prayed about it, we were told to remain.

My wife and I are in a similar place. We have not received the overwhelming answer that we must stay, but there have been "hints". In the near term we need to be more fervently seeking for a firm definitive answer. It is too hard without that foundation to hold us up. It is possible that the answer could be different at different periods of one's life.

LDSDPer said:
"IF, however, we were honest (?), if we were OPEN about how we feel about manuals and parascripture (following prophets, instead of Jesus), etc.-- we would be closed off and shunned to the point where remaining would no longer be an option."

This is the hard part. What is our role? What is our place? How quiet do we remain? How much do we let others assume about us as far as being TBMs? Are we meeting God's purposes more by being quiet or by being fully honest? Does God need both? Are there callings we don't accept? Are there callings which we can be of better service in?

As I hear the testimonies of various local leaders I don't know how I could faithfully function in those roles. I accepted a calling as a YM President at a time where things were starting to unravel for me. I thought, "this is God's will; this will get me back on the right path." That wasn't what happened; or maybe it was. I really struggled for a time and then this blog actually helped me to refocus on the Savior and to come to recognize and accept that the arm of the flesh is weak. (Recognizing that brought a lot of peace) I feel I was meant to be these boy's YM President though. I think the boys needed the focus on the Savior, on their worth, their potential and on the unconditional love the Savior and their Heavenly Father had for them and more importantly for each of His children (not just Mormons and those who are willing to accept Mormonism in this life or the next). There was so much though that I just couldn't teach or testify of as a typical YM President would. I just remained quiet in those areas. I was wise. Was I doing them a disservice because I was not the stalwart TBM?

Do we have a place in these types of callings? Can we faithfully serve God in these capacities with a testimony of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, but not of the Prophets and the Church?

"So we remain quiet; we are harmless, but we are wise."

To not outcast yourself, this seems the only answer. To what end? How do we do this and still serve? Maybe I am the only one, but these are questions I have looked in a lot of places for, but without much satisfaction.

Rock, LDSDPer, whoever else; what are your thoughts (recognizing that the flesh is weak and there is only one source for truth)?

boyouteast

boyouteast said...

Sorry; in the previous I quoted LDSDPer by stating that LDSDPer said and then quoting her. That is a little confusing. It looks like she reposted. Its all me. Sorry for any confusion. Short of family blogs, these comment is a first for me.

BK said...

boyouteast,

Since I believe the Lord tells everyone the same things, at least line upon line, I believe that he will not give us the confidence and assurance that it is right to leave the Church until we have sufficient knowledge of just how false and corrupt and evil it is. Once we get to that point we can't leave fast enough because we finally have a sense of outrage and repulsiveness about what it is teaching and doing and the actions of the leaders, and we don't want to be associated with or influenced by the Church anymore or keep supporting it's evils.

So until you get to that point I would just keep learning and studying Christ's teachings and comparing them with what the Church does.

One can continue going to Church but they can choose to give their tithing directly to relieve the suffering of the fatherless and poor to that they personally know, instead of to the Church that will probably use it to support wealthy leaders, building projects or even missionary efforts, for once we know the whole truth we wouldn't want anyone joining the Church anyway.

It seems to take years to fully wake up to the point that one feels comfortable and confident that the Church is so corrupt and wrong that of course the Lord would want us to leave. Until then he doesn't want us to have 2nd thoughts or doubt our leaving, for that is too hard on our conscience, if we don't understand fully yet how right it is to leave. But I believe that eventually the Lord leads everyone to leave the Church, and not support false prophets with our money, time and support, and most especially to set an example for our family and friends that we don't believe the Church is true and that we want to follow Christ instead. Most will think we are apostates at 1st, but as time goes on many of them will watch us and start thinking and questioning things for themselves, and even start asking us questions, because we had the courage to stand for the right and not pretend we believe in a false church.

Also, we must remember that if the Church isn't true, Satan will be continually giving us revelation and good feelings to stay and support it. For then that helps keep others stay who watch our example.

Satan doesn't care that we don't agree with everything taught, he just doesn't want us to stop coming or to stop giving the Church our money, for he likes that it is spent on temples, churches, malls and rich leaders rather then have it go to the poor.

The last thing Satan wants is for you to leave the Church and follow Christ on your own and teach your family and friends to, and help the poor and the fatherless directly.

engaged19times said...

Reading these comments in so many ways proves how cultish the LDS church really is. I am and since childhood have always been a fringe type of member. So I feel I have somewhat a bit of an inside perspective, while remaining mostly objective when I say that. I say objective but so many members and frankly a lot of the comments even on here get huge eye rolls from me.

My approach to the Church as an unemdowed, married to nonmember, child of partial member family? Look at church as a social thing only. Dont make fun, but realize its limits. And realize how spiritually limited most members really are.

LDSDPer said...

LOL!

Boyouteast,

BK and I have had this conversation many times; he/she is for leaving, I am for staying.

And he/she will probably encourage you to leave.

For what it is worth, my husband and I aren't the only new non-TBMs/former TBMs in our family, which is a great blessing. Our other non-TMBs live far away from us, however--
but we talk, a lot. About all these things; I've even sent them links from Rock's blog, and they have enjoyed it.
We are NOT alone. I know that. In our personal relationships within a ward, when we visit with people in the ward, when you aren't a TBM you can bear a stronger testimony of Jesus Christ and the Book of Mormon, speak differently of the poor, etc.
And I believe we have been heard. Friends. We have some much older friends who are winding down and have struggled with many things, especially with feeling 'on the out', because some of their children have had some heavy problems, etc. They are also converts. We have been very careful what we say to them, but they listen with their hearts about the Book of Mormon, and prayer and Jesus. And have told us how much we strengthen them. That is big for me.
They tell us how lonely they would be, without us.
They have open hearts. I have no fear for their standing with Jesus, even if they appear to be TBM.
Others, well, no. The fact is that the retention rate of new converts in our ward is terribly low; now and again we reach out to those who have left, when we see them and remind them that we care about them. We do not 'preach', not in any way, but we let them know they matter to us.
Fellowship can happen, it just needs to happen carefully--
As for callings, those can be rough, of course, but I am sensing that there really are more people who are waking up--
perhaps more of them in our age range; we are in our 60s--
of course, there are plenty who are not waking up--
But if those who gain a testimony of Jesus Christ and the Book of Mormon who realize how deeply flawed the corporate church and its vision are--
leave, then:

1--what takes its place? There is a huge void
2--what are we saying about our resolve to endure to the end? After all, we did join Jesus' church, in spite of the corporation; I hold onto that.

And, though BK and I try to be amicable with each other, I don't appreciate being told that I am being told by false revelation to remain 'in the church'.

As I have tried to explain in the past to BK, our entire culture (in and out of the church) is so completely corrupted that if a person were to be completely and totally true to contributing to nothing evil--

he or she would have to leave the earth--

and that's not easy to do--

I DO understand how BK feels, and I support him/her in not being involved--
I think that it is important that there be courtesy for both choices.

Anonymous said...

In the area I live I have had the opportunity to see ALOT of people become dissatisfied with the church and leave. I have seen many of the families embrace strange philosophies and the kids turn to rebellion. I have pondered this a great deal. One conclusion I have come to is that as an LDS people we are missing a true belief in Christ and guidance by the Holy Spirit. So when people leave the constrains and controls of the church, they do not know how to stay centered on the Lord. The philosiphies I am speaking of are anything from atheism to embracing all out New Age.
The Lord keeps running through my mind the theme of Idolatry in my life. I can not believe the layers of idolatry I am guilty of. Just recently I got smacked in the head with a ton of bricks when I realized the church itself can be an idol. When we care more what people or leadership at church will think or the good will of fellow church members becomes more important to us than what the Lord thinks, that is idolatry. There is a contentment, security and satisfaction that comes with identifying with a group. This can easily become what guides our decisions instead of what the Lord says. engaged 19times, maybe you do not understand how deeply entrenched this is for some of us who have had the church ingrained upon us since babyhood. It is always easier to see things clearly from the outside looking in, but the reverse can be clouded with emotion.
I am not judging or saying where anyone should stand. My family consists of a couple excommunicated non-conformist members and several mainstream mormons and a few inbetween. I think we have to get serious with the Lord and allow Him to guide us and our families.
Homeschool Mom

LDSDPer said...

@homeschool mom,

I appreciate your input. Yes, it's all about Jesus Christ (and the Book of Mormon which leads to Him in a way nothing else can)--

whether in or out of the church--

and becoming dissatisfied and leaving can be easy to do and hard to sustain in a healthy, happy way.
Yes, churches can definitely be idols, I believe. Good point.

I came back to make a point. I am a non-interventionist who believes that collectivism is one of the chief problems of our civilization (the whole thing); wars come out of collectivism; collectivism causes people of one religion to despise people of another, etc.
It's a huge problem. On top of that is a tendency for many humsn to see everything in terms of 'black and white', 'all or nothing'--

for those people, I believe, often haven't gone deep enough to see that it isn't just religion that ensnares us with false beliefs; it is EVERYTHING. And nobody can escape it, as long as we are all on earth.
Making it better for other people, through Christ--is the key.

I had ancestors who rejected polygamy during a time when there was intense pressure from everyone else in the church to live polygamy. They were well-educated people (unusual in their area), living in the intermountain west. And they just said "no!"--
But they did so very, very quietly--
and yet what an impact it had on their descendants, and how grateful I am to them. I would never have known about it if the great-grandmother hadn't told her daughters and they told their daughters and on and on--
and now I have told my daughters--
A big "over the pulpit" announcement would probably have led to their being excommunicated, etc. A divorce possibly, due to embarrassment, SO many things. Being careful, being cautious, going slow--
led to a large, happy family--
from which I am extremely grateful to be descended.

Personal revelation is just that; it is personal. I can respect those who choose to leave, to a point, if they aren't making a dramatic production out of it, but all too often people who haven't thought things out well and who have not been wise--
do just make it into a dramatic production--
and I don't see anything Christlike in that.
There is a reason He said, "be ye therefore wise as a serpent and harmless as a dove"--

engaged 19 times, I appreciate your perspective, too--

I respect the perspectives of all who have been thoughtful and prayerful.

I try to stand as a witness of God. And I realize my own weaknesses keenly. My church involvement is not without pain, but I know what I have been told. If anyone needs to hear that, they can read my words and know they are not alone.

I won't say how many people I know have left the church (one joined another and is quite happy actually) who came to me expecting me to reject them, only to be surprised when I told them to follow the Spirit, and they would be all right.
I would say that to everyone. And don't let someone make you afraid to pray, for fear satan will lead you--
If you are following Jesus, you will know.

Anonymous said...

LDSDper-
Your comment earlier about defending the faith has caused me a great deal of thought. I looked up "defend" in the terms of defending our faith. The only references I could see to this was in the New Testament(in the teachings of the Apostles)and the D and C I think. Other than defending the freedom of religion I did not see mention of it in the BOM. Hmm, food for thought.

I am also mulling your comment around in my head about being wise as serpents and gentle as doves. I think at times Jesus was very bold and spoke things that angered the "powers that be". But also He spoke in parables to those who were willing to listen. He sometimes didn't lay it all out there and those willing to listen would understand. Food for thought again.
Homeschool Mom

engaged19times said...

Oh I still go to church. I really think of myself as like a catholic. MAt a superficial level, mormons like me. Tho when they try to get the scoop why I didnt marry a mormon man I just always tell them, No mormon man wanted to marry me. And thats the truth. No mormon man had th *spirit* lead him to me. I met my husband and I loved him and that was it. To me, that was special and the spirit.

Plus I dont care to follow the WoW anymore and I dont hide it. When ppl ask me what religion I am I tell them unorthodox mormon. Cuz even in my black heart there is a.modicumof belief that Jesus will come visit me and the BoM is true.

Sorry to be a bit of an internet troll but since we r all getting honest, well Im going to bring my truth too.

engaged19times said...

Now this whole tithing thing. I think a lot of mormons still hold onto the belief that its *true* because they cant admit they've been had. I have an aunt who is this way, quite well off business lady. She doesnt want to think she's been taken for a fool by a church.

speachless said...

"well Im going to bring my truth too"

I think you have been bringing it since you started. Please, don't hold back.

All those poor LDS men that didn't recognize what was before them. Hmm... Perhaps the spirit was leading them after all?..

LDSDPer said...

engaged 19 times--

your aunt sounds as though she has a definite pride problem--

which isn't uncommon among *us* gentiles--

:)

But I am sounding judgemental--

You're not so different from SO many (not all, of course) who appear to be TBMs but who are, at heart, born again Christians who happen to attend a Mormon church.

:)

I have to admit, though, that this process through which my husband and I have come/gone has taken many decades.

It was on my mission where I began to wake up.

I ran into two kinds of elders, and sadly the one kind was quite rare--

one kind said, "image and outward ablutions are everything; so you must have a smile on your face and follow ALL the rules, even if you are hurting yourself and your health" (there were quite a few like that)

another kind, rare, but so precious said, "watch, watch, watch, observe; you will know who is real and who isn't; don't let them suck the spirit and life out of you; they will, if you let them. Find that which is good and hold onto it; there is a reason you are here; there is a gem hidden inside all of this, but don't let them know you are onto them; they will hurt you, if you do."

wise, WISE young man--

kept me from being sent home, because my health was so rotten. I wised up, took care of myself and kept my mouth shut!!!

LDSDPer said...

and if I hadn't, I wouldn't know the Book of Mormon as I now do.

I wouldn't have had the miraculous experiences with Jesus that I had the last part of my mission--

but I learned to keep my mouth shut.

Sadly, I don't do that on here--

LOL!

None of you (but Rock and his wife) know where I am, though--

engaged19times said...

Haha! Me and a mormon man would not be seeing eye to eye right now at all!

But seriously, u want some more truth? I dont care for how sexy mormon women dress nowadays. Garments ringing out the top of their too low cut tops, slits up the backs of their skirts displaying their garment shorts. I see endowed mormon women showing up for church in what i assume are stripper heels. Ugh. This is probably my biggest clue how not true i think the church is. Would love a post about this trend of endowed women dressing too sexy.

boyouteast said...

BK, LDSDPer, manyengagements and homeschool mom; thanks for your various perspectives. I respect each of you for being true to what you feel is best for you and your family. I think there is something to be learned from each view. We are only limited by our willingness to engage and consider.

BK and LDSDPer, I envy your conviction on where you stand. But, I know that the best and most solid things take time. Ultimately, I think you both encourage us to look to Christ and I whole-heartedly agree with that direction.

I also agree that God will tell us the same thing, but more in an ultimate sense. It all leads to the same end. I think depending on who and where you are people can get completely opposite guidance from God. I think that some might have a place within the Church. That might be where God needs them; that is where they can serve God and serve those in need. I think we can be directed to be somewhere for the ONE. That can be in some of the most difficult and painful places: the Church, the military, South Carolina, pick your own difficult place. I think that another can get pure direction that their place is outside of the Church. That is where God needs them. I also think that the person who got the pure direction to stay may over time experience changes to circumstance such that they receive pure direction that they are meant to leave.

My wife and I also have family members on both sides who attend regularly who are not TBMs. They are silent and wise. I also have a brother who has left. They are each a strength and a light to me in so many ways. I think there is something about being raised super orthodox.

Thank you to all. I really appreciate this blog and the positive discussions that I find here.

BK said...

LDSDPer,

You asked: "What would take it's place? There would be a huge void.

But I do not believe there needs to be a huge void, especially if one stays close to God and studies on their own. I believe most true Christians throughout history have had to study in their own families and homes without a true church to attend.

For a true Church has always been rare to find throughout history.

I myself and other people I know who have left the Church do not feel any void in life, only freedom to follow Christ according to his pure teachings and not have them filtered through and usually changed by very fallible men.

It is true though, that if people leave the Church and do not maintain their relationship with God and continue to follow Christ then they may feel a void or even go off into just as false of paths as the Church is.

But no one needs a church to attend or leader to follow, in order to be righteous, all we must do is be able to receive revelation from God and follow Christ on our own and we can become prophets ourselves.

In fact, I believe we must become spiritually independent from other men or leaders and become prophets ourselves, if we are to achieve Eternal Life.

You also ask: "Should we not endure to the end in Christ's Church?

Well, I don't believe the LDS Church is or ever was Christ's Church, I believe it is Brigham's made up Church, just like I don't believe the Catholic or Baptist Church is Christ's Church.

I believe Christ's Church was lost when Joseph died. All authority to continue Christ's Church was lost.

To think the LDS Church is Christ's would be the same as thinking the RLDS or FLDS is Christ's Church too, for they all have as much or far more claim to be Christ's Church as the LDS Church does. But I believe all of them were false Church's started by men.

The true Church died long before Brigham took some of the Saints out west. Many or most of the Saints refused to follow BY, for they could tell he was an wicked imposter and false prophet with no authority to continue the true Church of Christ. Same with all of the leaders who went west with Brigham, none of them had any authority, for Joseph taught that all authority, keys and Priesthood is immediately lost by following and supporting wickedness or wicked and false leaders.

So I believe 'enduring to the end' means' continually repenting of following or supporting any false prophets or false churches or false doctrines and only following Christ.

For Joseph and Christ warned us we would be damned if we allowed ourselves to be deceived to support or follow such falsehoods, false prophets or false churches.

jled said...

Great discussion LDSDPer and BK. I find myself agreeing with both of you, but as I was reading BK's last comment, I was sad to realize that I almost agree completely with the idea that BY was a wicked imposter and false prophet, so where does that leave us today??? I think that God still uses the Church in a lesser, chosen way where lesser ordinances are still valid (just as the children of Israel had the lesser Aaronic priesthood after rejecting the Lord's presence). Publishing the Book of Mormon and missionary work...being a net that gathers fish of all kinds. But I feel the emptiness of the programs and the busy-work they are. They are meaningless to me, and are shallow and lacking in Spirit. Enduring to the end in useless activity in the church sounds like a prison sentence to me. I can study doctrine, and have my own relationship with the Lord without going into a building for 3 hours a week. I believe that the Church has drifted into apostasy and teach for commandments the doctrines of men. It is a mirror of ancient Israel in it's idol worship of hierarchy and "authority" and is just as pharisiachal in all the minutia of laws as the leaders of Christ's day. I think that Brigham's polygamy was an abomination and it makes me sick.

I believe that the Lord will set His hand again to continue the restoration that Joseph started...He's going to clean house, starting with the LDS Church.

engaged19times said...

Jled: u said the lord uses the church in a lesser chosen way. I think that chosen way is how denver snuffer said it the other day. And this is a perfect description of the typical endowed mormon who thinks they will be exalted cuz they r married in the temple. He basically said with their hidden rituals only available to the *worthy* they are chosen - - to be an example of foolishness, pride, and just the sort of ppl who reject Jesus.

BK said...

Jled,

I appreciate your comments, but I cannot agree that the Lord uses Brigham's Church to accomplish his goals anymore than he would use any other false church like the Catholic Church or FLDS or Baptists.

In fact, I believe the Lord would use churches like the Baptist to further his Gospel far more than he would the LDS Church, for the Baptists preach and practice Christ's Gospel far better than the LDS do.

But I do not believe that LDS Baptisms are any more valid then Catholic or Baptist baptisms.

And of course temple ordinances & endowments, washings & sealings all appear to be completely false, only made up by Brigham to try to give legitimacy to his whoredoms.

Such temple ordinances have no need, and there is no proof that Christ or any true prophets or scriptures ever taught or did such things.

No one needs a 'sealing' to have an eternal marriage or family, everyone in the world will have an eternal family, but they just may not all end up in the same level of heaven. But they will know and love and visit their family members forever.

Nothing can stop family from being family in eternity, not even God. Nothing can break up a marriage for eternity, not even God.

After everyone repents and pays for their sins in the next life everyone will go on in their respective 1st marriage and family as they do here. It is only on earth that we make things so complicated with everyone believing in false divorce and remarriage. But such things were never sanctioned or allowed by God or he would cease to be God, for Christ taught there is really no such thing as divorce or remarriage, it's all adultery.

Anonymous said...

I was wondering if anyone would have any comments on this. I was reading in the book of Mormon and I noticed that Jesus called the twelve in the americas "disciples" and the twelve in Israel "Apostles". No where in scripture(other than in the D and C)could I find the word Apostle used for anyone but the 12 called by Christ in Israel. Does anyone have any theories on this?
Homeschool Mom

BK said...

Bottom line for me is, I do not believe 'enduring to the end' is supporting churches started and created by wicked men like BY. Even current LDS leaders cause the poor and the fatherless and the widows to suffer continually, by ignoring their pleas and even by demanding they give their last dime to these wealthy leaders, to support their high living on the widows mite.

They take advantage of the fatherless and tell them to support them 1st rather then take care of their own hungry or cold children. That is pure evil.

I do not believe Christ or God would have anything to do with such a Church, in fact he has warned us that we will lose our salvation if we support it.

engaged19times said...

I will interject a true story of the grossness of tithing as we know it. Mormon family of several boys and one daughter. Gross income tithe payer types. Dad trucker, mom worked double shifts as janitor. Left only daughter in care of brothers. For hours on end. Years later, turns out daughter molested by brothers. Has baby as teen.i will stop there the.story gets worse.

LDSDPer said...

I do need to make it clear that I believe that 'enduring to the end' may be different for every person.
I have been told to remain; so has my husband.
Young people often need a structure of some kind.
I have had ministers and ministers' wives as friends; we have also had a lot of association with Catholics; I can tell you that they do not have 'more' than *we* have.
Yes, the business is ridiculous; the block is absurd--
all the programs are WAY too much.

But *I* would not have the Book of Mormon without this church.

And to me that is big.

Brigham's behavior(s) was/were abominable--

but I do believe in repentance. As I said, "I'm not all 'black and white'"--

I think there have been righteous men since.

I don't think (I am agreeing with you here, BK)--

that there can exist an incorrupt church in this world.

Simply cannot.

But some people need faith communities, even if they stay close to the Lord.

So, it's not a 'one size fits all'--

It's not all or nothing.

And the main thing with which I disagree with BK (and he/she knows this)
is that people damn themselves to enter a church and participate there.

IF a person's heart is open and turned towards Jesus Christ, that person can go almost anywhere and be protected.

It's ludicrous to tell people they are condemned if they participate in a religion, in a social way--

I think boyouteast understands what I am saying.

And yes, prayers can change. Maybe the time will come when we will be told to 'leave', but 'leave' to go where?

That is our dilemma. Frankly, I don't have the strength to 'fight' those who would try to 'save' us.

I've been there and done that, and I'm ashamed of having done it (tried to save people when they left, in my pride and hubris)--

and I don't want to cause anyone else to err in that way.

My friends, if the Lord called me into a bar (He has not), I would feel I could safely go. Thank Heavens, He has not, but I would go there, if I felt I needed to go there.

It's the 'black and white' I reject.

That talk by Bednar represented what is dangerous about that mindset, and it is found in people in and out of churches--

I hope this makes sense this time.

I'm reading Daymon Smith, homeschool mom, and he points this out.

Definitions are SO fluid; this is a big problem.

A tricky one. And I know that Captain Moroni called upon the people to defend their country and families and religion. In the D&C (98) *we* are told that we should allow people to impose quite a few times before defending, so it's very muzzy to me.

:)

I admit it. I think we tend to be compulsive and too eager over too many things, besides serving. LOL!

*we* means everyone, including myself--

I was raised in a warlike family, and I've had to fight it.

For example, as much as I love Nephi, I don't know which spirit he followed to kill Laban. My husband and I talk about this all the time; why didn't he gag the man or just knock him out, take his non-bloody clothes and do what he did?

Why not? As it was, they were protected and got out.

And why on EARTH did Nephi insist his brothers and others who rebelled had to come?

It was coercion; he and Lehi should have let them go back--

they had agency, I assume. Well, what we learn is that THAT culture was highly flawed, and righteous as he was, Nephi had a good chunk of pride and hubris.

It's so easy to think one message is being given, when it's really a lot more complicated.

So I am learning.

:)

Anonymous said...

LDSDper-
You are just about my mom's age(in your 60s)and it is interesting because your comments about Nephi sound so much like her thoughts. It must be the wisdom that comes from having seen much for 60 some odd years. I have felt the same as you do about leaving the church "Where would I go then?". Recently I have been contemplating this and wondering what would I do if the Lord called me out of the church? Loud and clear I heard"Can you not also trust me in this?". I felt ashamed and relieved. If He asks something of me then of course he will provide the rest. But I totally understand your concerns..I have a couple teenagers, they need a good social outlet and who would they marry then? I guess it is trust in Him. But for now I do not feel I am being called to leave despite frustrations. and I have to say BK's zeal reminds me of my Dad. That's a good thing, my Dad is a man like unto Moroni.

Anonymous said...

Oops! that last post was by Homeschool Mom...don't delete me, Rock!

engaged19times said...

LDSper, I remember in institute the teacher saying it was ok for.Nephi to kill Laban because Laban had stolen their gold/jewelry they had brought to trade for the plates. And in the law where they lived it was legal to kill someone over that. IDK what to believe on that. Dont much care since the BoM makes almost zero sense to me anyway.

Hadnt considered ur thing abou Laman/Lemuel's agency was interfered with tho. I need to think on that

BK said...

LDSDPer,

I agree that it was probably wrong of Lehi to insist that his sons follow them to the Promised Land, unless they were younger teenagers not yet old enough to be left on their own.

But I find a number of things in the Book of Mormon that I don't agree with or that are true, but then again it is only considered to be 'the most correct book' not a 'perfect book', and we know how even prophets can often be wrong about things or even fall.

Plus, maybe the Book of Mormon is not even truly from God, maybe Joseph really did write it with help from others. And so it contains both true and false things in it like any book or novel, even things we can learn from.

The more I look into that the more it seems the BoM may not have come from an angel after all.

And I believe you could have found the Book of Mormon from alot of different sources or churches, RLDS, FLDS, or LDS or even from the Bookstore.

But I don't believe the Book of Mormon is more important then the New Testament. The New Testament is where the whole Gospel of Jesus Christ is found. We judge the BoM by the NT, not the other way around. All Christians have the New Testament and by that alone can become righteous and gain Eternal Life if they will follow Christ's teachings. The Book of Mormon is a helpful book, true or not, but it is 'not' essential to one gaining Eternal Life or understanding Christ's Gospel.

And I have recently found it very surprising & curious that Lucy Mack Smith wrote that her husband had the 'Tree of Life' dream when Joseph was a little child. Yet we never hear about that. That is front page news.

So the more we look into things the more the BoM could have been written by Joseph and others. And the 'Tree of Life' dream seems like it came from Joseph's father and not really from Lehi, for surely his parents would have told him that dream over and over as a child. The other question is why didn't Joseph ever mention that his father had the same dream as Lehi? Which again, would have been front page news for the early Saints. But it doesn't seem like he ever did mention that, thus creating more doubt about the BoM.

BK said...

LDSDPer, Continued-


At any rate, it wasn't me who said if we support falsehoods and false prophets or false churches that we would lose our salvation, it was Joseph Smith and Christ. They constantly warned us of such things. I take them seriously and stay far away from false prophets and false churches if I can, for I know how easy it is to be deceived by them to do wrong.

Going into a bar/church a few times to help someone out, is alot different then joining or supporting that bar/church with our money, time and efforts.

I believe those who still attend the LDS Church just don't realize how corrupt and evil it really is, or they would be repulsed to support it or have their children influenced by it. For I know it's very hard to unteach our teenagers many of the false and destructive things they learn in the LDS Church, that sadly can effect their lives in very negative ways.

I believe it is much safer to teach them at home ourselves, according to the pure teachings of Christ, and God will help us do that, and then we can let them socialize with other teens as needed but not let them be taught falsehoods they may cling to and fall for.

I also do believe God is very black and white. I believe we are either righteous and have the Holy Spirit as our guide or we do not and thus are deceived to support evil.

I believe we either have charity (and thus we are righteous & will gain eternal life) or we don't and are 'nothing' as Christ said,(and we will be deceived and earn a lesser reward in heaven). I believe it is very rare to have true charity and be righteous, even many prophets don't seem to have it.

Just because God is black & white doesn't mean he doesn't love us unconditionally and try to work with us wherever we are. He hopes we will all gain charity, but even if we can only gain the Terrestrial or Telestial Kingdom at least we will eventually become perfect in the next life and return to a part of his Kingdom.

LDSDPer said...

BK,

I know we have gone around and around these things--

:)

when you were AV and again anonymous (something; can't remember)

You have your opinions; I have mine. I know mine are strong, but I do try to follow the Spirit.

If you think Joseph Smith wrote the Book of Mormon, rather than translated that, then how can you accept him as a prophet/true teacher? I like that Daymon Smith calls him a 'seer' and points out that too many early Mormons had to have a 'leader' and designated him, when it wasn't necessarily God's will or Joseph's. I like the idea of seer, and I do believe he translated the Book of Mormon from ancient plates, and I know how complicated it was; it appears he used many different methods of receiving the translation.

I can't agree that the NT is any more correct than the Book of Mormon, and I wonder how much you have read the Book of Mormon.

I stopped reading the bible, generally, and began to read the Book of Mormon, intensely, and I have had a complete change in perspective.

There are MANY falsehoods in the Book of Mormon, but they are among those people--

the fact is that all of them, in spite of their cultural biases and corruptions, point to Jesus Christ.

The Bible has been at least as corrupted as the Book of Mormon could have been; the difference is that the Book of Mormon appears to be 'new' to our culture and therefore can be an instrument of greater questioning and truth seeking.

I don't see where Jesus said to leave a church, if it was corrupt. He told the Jewish leaders they were corrupt, but He never stopped being a Jew.

And He was God. You're going to have to get me scripture/verse on that one.

:)

Said in kindness and humor there. I am acquainted with the New Testament; I have studied it extensively, and I see nothing where He condemns people for being in a group; there was no church for Him to discuss, just the corruption of a culture and a people, and I agree heartily that *our* culture and people are corrupted.

It's a constant effort to find truth for anyone, not just those who continue to participate in the LDS church.

@homeschool mom, yes, time does change the perspective, I think. Also, intense reading over many decades of the Book of Mormon brings insights that I don't think anything else can, and I don't say that arrogantly. I did it for some reason; I don't know why, but I never stopped reading it, every day.
The last 10 years or more has been even more intense. I can't put the book down. LOL!

engaged 19 times--

have you read the Book of Mormon or just the metatext surrounding it? Ah, you can tell I've been reading Daymon Smith. LOL!

Yes, the culture/religion of Jerusalem in 600 B.C. was HIGHLY corrupt--

yes, they were very violent people; we read about it, but we don't have to agree with it. Nephi wanted to be better, but he couldn't disconnect from that violent culture before he killed Laban, when he didn't have to.

The culture defended his actions; that doesn't mean they were right.

I like your comments, engaged 19 times--

Please keep commenting.

I am one who comments entirely too much, I know.

BK and I have had a LOT of discussions; neither of us seems to be able to stop, and we just keep saying the same things over and over again--

LOL!

Thanks for letting me try to lighten it up.

I am not black and white, and I don't think God is; I guess for that reason BK and I will never be able to agree--

but I think we respect each other. I know I have appreciated many things BK has said, under several names--

:)

I know we are both very much against divorce or at least remarriage.

I think sometimes people must separate, but I don't believe remarriage, as a principle, is ever good.

I've seen so much tragedy come from it--

:(

37andholding said...

LDSDPer
I don't think Nephi killed Laban out of cultural conditioning. Laban clearly tried, not just once, to kill Nephi and his brothers and father. Their lives were threatened! You notice that Nephi 'killed' Laban. He did not commit murder. Laban stole from them. If Laban had been left alive, he would not have given up the man hunt for them, ever! The Spirit of God told Nephi to do it. Nephi didn't want to.
That's my take on it. I appreciate your other comments albeit off topic of post. 'Me' too! ;)

engaged19times said...

Ldsper, I am on my 5th reading in4 years....ive receibed no visits from Jesus, not even angels. The best thing thats enlightened me was one day 4 years ago googling up BoM topics and I came across Denver Snuffer's posts about the end of 2 nephi. I have followed denvers blog ever since and i made it thru 2nd comforter and abou2/3 of nephis isaiah. I have marginally followed pure mormonism blog since around that time.


This last go round with the BofM I havent picked it up in months. I get nowhere with it. And because i am a gentile who doesnt clothe the poor, i probably never will. I also recently built a house with my husband and spent way too much and that money could have helped the poor. I bwlieve the BoM is true. But i dont know how to give up the lifestyle....do i take my small children and go live ina tent at the lake, on the offchance Jesus will come visit me? If there was a guaramtee of that i would do it.

But i am becoming more cynical by the day. My new favorite pastime is celebrity gossip. I have read surprising things about what is going on behind closed doors. How the cia does mind control thru entertainment and i think this whole culture that is eating itself to death is contolled by darkness. With my young family, i could use a comforting visit from an angel. Someone who truly understands all things. But, due to the aforementioned reasons, heaven pays no attention to me. But i pray to heaven to watch over my kids. I say that prayer about 12 times a day and thats all the prayin i do anymore.

Ive given up on understanding the BoM. I set it aside months ago, keep meaning to try again, and just cant. Its a dark book. My cold black heart stillhopes for a visit from Jesus. Mostly i just want that visit to get my judgment over with so i can go on and not wonder so much about it. Also there are some riddles and puzzles that i want solved like was Jesus married and whatever became of the offspring? Why is there so much suffering? Why does it all have to be dark and so so sad?

Disclaimer: Im sharing these feelings from a cynical standpoint at this time in life. I dont mean to drag anyone else down.

Ponderous said...

"I am on my 5th reading in 4 years....ive receibed no visits from Jesus, not even angels"

NOT EVEN AN ANGEL?.. Oh well,I think it happens on the 6th reading, YOU'RE SO CLOSE, DON'T GIVE UP!!!

Besides, you have not even finished reading The Second Comforter yet.

I believe you are just having some fun with people here, seeing who will bite. You can't seriously believe that Jesus is going to visit you with a total lack of faith and the doubting, cynical attitude you express here. :P

LDSDPer said...

engaged 19 times--

I feel that you are being honest and expressing real concerns. It's all right to be honest about being cynical; I struggle with cynicism, too.

It is not easy to take care of the poor; it never is. Sometimes, however, as we age and have experiences the poor become *us*, and then our perspective will change. This is your time to work this through.
I was once where you are now.

To me the Book of Mormon isn't dark, but I can understand that it might feel that way to others at times. I have struggled with various scriptures from time to time, and for years I could not read Ether; now I can.

The waking up process takes time; be patient with yourself. Your prayers for your children are very important, and God hears them.

I don't expect, never did expect a 'visitation' from Jesus, and I am troubled that people feel that they have to have that--

I have had powerful spiritual experiences, but I wouldn't say it was the kind of thing Denver Snuffer has described. You are an individual; God will find you where you can be found.

Be patient with Him; be patient with yourself; progress takes time, and mortality is very hard indeed.

I struggle with the suffering in the world and feel helpless to help.

Each of us does what he/she can in his/her own life.

I have done what I felt I should do, but I certainly have not tried to tell others what to do.

Except now--LOL! Don't give up on yourself--


LDSDPer said...

37--

I used to believe what you say. I think that it was a test for Nephi.

Over in America, I don't think that Laban could have touched Nephi--

and the fact is that a culture born in violence ended in violence; that can't be denied.

Do I think that Nephi will be 'punished' for this? Probably not in eternity; I think he suffered enough in mortality.

I don't think a threat to kill is enough reason to kill another person.

There is no proof or reason to believe that there would have been a 'man hunt'--

why not after he was killed; it could have happened as easily then?

But I respect your right to think what you did; it is what I used to think.

The verse says, "the spirit"--

I think it was a test for Nephi, and I think he was a righteous man and did much good, but I do believe he paid a high price for the decision he made.

He was human; humans make mistakes and suffer for them.

If he hadn't, he probably wouldn't have come to know God as he did.
The fact is that Nephi was insufferable; I am not surprised his older brothers (in a culture where age in a family mattered) suffered him as they did.
We LDS tend to black and white the Nephi/Lehi story, too.

*I* believe.




37andholding said...

It's where we are in enlightenment I suppose.

Anonymous said...

engaged19times-
I have been contemplating your comment. I think I may know the feeling you have. I have been there I called it "spiritual deadness". I hope that doesn't sound too harsh. I didn't realize it at the time but I felt like I couldn't trust God with my life and I just felt empty and dead inside. I tried so hard to make sure I did all the right "things" say my prayers, read my scriptures, but it all felt empty. One time as I was praying I saw a beam of light and warmth connecting me to the Lord. I realized this was the unconditional love of God. No matter what I did that love was still there. I could not ever change His love for me...even if I never read my scriptures again or never said another prayer. That love is there for all of us. This really helped me to let go of the "performing". I think that we can live in such away that keeps us from feeling that love, but it is still there, even if we don't feel it.
The scriptures point us to Christ but they are not Him. When we make room for Him and allow Him to cause us to be Born Again/Redeemed/Baptised by Fire(whatever you may call it)then the scriptures begin to open up to us and we hunger and thirst after things of the Lord. It is no longer a work or chore but it flows freely from you(or from the Lord to you).
It was quite a few years between my experience of realizing the Lord's unconditional love for me and having the experience of being Born Again. Everyone is different and no one can dictate to you how things should progress for you.
I can tell you that having once been spiritually dead and now alive in Christ, I would never go back. My life has opened up to me and I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that is what He intends for you(and all of us).
I know this isn't "testimony sunday" and I hope I don't come across preachy or bossy. Okay, yes, I am preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ, but I am very sincere.
Homeschool Mom

LDSDPer said...

@homeschool mom--

yes, and when that happens, you want to reach out in love to those who have less (in every way) than you have; you WANT to serve the depressed, sad, angry who are seeking, poor, hungry, sick, marginalized people in the world--

Does anyone know where the story is told about the sons of Mosiah and how they couldn't bear to think of others suffering, because they had been born of God?

I can't find it--

But it's there, and I did not understand it before I had my 'conversion', and then I did understand it.

It's something to hope for.

engaged 19 times

I don't 'want' "things" as much as I did before my conversion, but it is important to understand that it is still necessary to be fed and clothed yourself and to feed and clothe your little ones--

We have chosen to live as simple as possible, but we eat well and wear healthy clothing (sounds odd, but for some of us it is important; there are "allergies", etc.)--

Though we humans tend to want too much comfort, it is not healthy to be exposed always to the elements, and there are times when everyone needs to rest, in comfort.

I had an ancestor who wanted to help the poor so much that he deprived his own children, to their hurt.

That is never righteous; it is important to follow the spirit. But once you are born again you want to help others. And it's never really, ever, 'enough'. I struggle with this all the time. There is no way to know what 'enough' is; I believe it is the state of the heart that matters.

As Benjamin said, if you WANT to help people--

Anonymous said...

LDSDper-
I agree about having a desire to help others. After I had my experience I had to rethink some things. We don't have a lot of money but the Lord pricked my heart about turning my face away from the panhandlers on the street corners. My children were watching me. We were reading Proverbs28:27 and I felt convicted that I was hiding my eyes. I apologized to my children and together we came up with a plan. We don't have a lot of extra money, but we decided that we could afford cliff bars. We wrapped them in paper with John3:16 and say God bless you as we hand them out. I think it really is about an attitude of generosity and not how much you can give...even if all you can give is a prayer and a blessing.(Mosiah 4:24-25)
HomeschoolMom

Anonymous said...

LDSDper-
Are you thinking of Mosiah chapter 28?
Homeschool Mom

Anonymous said...

Uh, I just reread my comment. Since we don't know who each other are then my right hand doesn't know what the left is doing right? I didnt mean to come across as bragging about giving my "alms".
Homeschool Mom

LDSDPer said...

you're fine, homeschool mom; I worry about that, too--

but I think sometimes it is good when *we* can anonymously encourage each other.

That sounds great; the cliff bars.

I have family members who became very involved a few years ago with a specific group of homeless, and the blessings that came to them were really amazing.

But they did talk to US about it; I know they didn't go around telling others nearby.

I'll look up Mosiah 28.

Thanks.

In our area, it's possible to take food directly to food banks. We don't have panhandling here, but we do have homeless; I appreciate the efforts of many who collect food through grocery stores, etc.

I have to admit it makes it 'easy' when running to a food bank might involve time that is hard to find, so I sometimes wonder how much of a sacrific it is, but maybe that's not the point at all--

we also are low income (but independent), but we find that we always have enough to eat, and when we give food to the poor/needy we aren't hungry.

We have certainly felt blessed.

One of our single adult children (who does live at home) works in a company that provided Christmas for some of the homeless in our community; many asked for mittens/scarves, etc. Practical things. It was a beautiful thing to see.

So, yes, there are many ways to do it--
and I know that my child's company did not advertise what they were doing; it was a private thing; they talked among each other, and that was it.

All good stuff.

:)

I am thinking this is very problematic in the intermountain west for some reason, and that is hard.

LDSDPer said...

I probably don't need to state that we are independent; that sounds prideful.
I need to get over it. LOL!

When we moved here (we came home after 20 years exile in the west well over a decade ago, but the ward into which we moved was not our old ward; our friends were at least 100 miles away)--

we were "homeless" (from long unemployment), were hanging on to dear life to the sad remnant of equity from a home we had sold (low) in the west--
and unemployed.
We didn't even ask for help; I don't know how we made it, but we didn't ask for help in the ward--

we used our rapidly depleting equity (yes, I know how amazing it is that we had THAT) to pay for temp housing in an unsafe area--

it was costly; many people don't realize how the 'poor' are taken advantage of, until it happens to them--

a ward member became aware of our situation, a wealthy woman who traveled a lot--(widow)--

and offered to let us live in her home, if we paid her insurance and a stipend to cover all the utilities, etc.

We did. It was less than the temp housing, safe, and clean. We were overjoyed.

Imagine our heartache when the rumor went around the ward and came back to us that we were 'freeloading', literally paying nothing.

When my husband found low level employment, we took our equity and put it into a modest home; the mortgage was less than we were paying to the ward member to live in her home--

and yet that gossip remained. We had moved there, they said, to get help, to 'mooch'.

I can't even begin to tell you how angry we felt, because we hadn't even asked for (or gotten) any help--

and we were not on government assistance, though my husband had unemployment compensation through his old company (where he had been downsized); it was a tiny amount, and we did use it to eat--

It still hurts. I know I need to move on, but those people who promoted those falsehoods about our family have continued to treat us as though we are poor Zoramites.

I need to stop being defensive. We are low income, though. Working poor. LOL!

And it has changed my entire perspective. I had already had my experiences with Jesus, which had some profound effects on my life and behavior, but being 'homeless' with dependent children--

and not being able to find employment--

and then having those unkind things said--

I guess I took it harder than I should have, but we were all quite fragile at that time. We had special needs children (not all, but some of ours were), and it was not easy to keep them going--

Thanks for listening. :)

Anonymous said...

LDSDper-
Unfortunately, I have many times seen church members judge unfairly, assuming they know the full story, when they do not. Why are people quick to believe the worst? Maybe because it takes the least effort mentally. I think when we have not suffered pain ourselves it is easier to judge people. When you have been humbled by pain yourself, I think you are more kind in your judgements of others.
When my Dad was excommunicated it was really hard on everyone in the family, but hardest on my siblings who were still at home. They were trying to still go to church even through all the judgement they received from others. I was married by then but lived close enough in proximity to my parents to receive a grilling by our hometeacher. I love the verse in Alma(35:5-6)that talks about the Zoramites spying to figure out who believed what.

5 Now their rulers and their priests and their teachers did not let the people know concerning their desires; therefore they found out privily the minds of all the people.

6 And it came to pass that after they had found out the minds of all the people, those who were in favor of the words which had been spoken by Alma and his brethren were cast out of the land; and they were many; and they came over also into the land of Jershon.

That is what I experienced. It is not pleasant. I know of people who feel it is their duty to turn and make a mental note of who does/does not raise their hand to sustain the prophet during General Conference(this was back in the day when everyone went to the chapel to watch it.). I am sure they felt it their duty to report this to the bishop.
We could all use a good chuckle so I will tell this story. I know a man who was excommunicated and continued to attend church. He was approached by leadership and told that if he continued to attend church the Sheriff would be brought in to physically remove him from the building. The sheriff when asked by the man, said that the sheriff does not have the authority to remove him from the building. So the next fast Sunday he attended church and boldly bore his testimony. What could they do excommunicate him again?
Not exactly "wise as serpents and gentle as doves" LDSdper, but there you have it!
Homeschool Mom

engaged19times said...

Thanks y'all. I now see the world thru a glass darkly. But I'm going to keep the negativity to myself. I'm going to feel my feelings because I cant help how I feel . But I have shared enough inner skeptic now. Thx.

Alan Rock Waterman said...

I often say that the best thing about this blog is the comment sections. I've enjoyed catching up with the discussion that has gone on here this past week.

Last Saturday I came down with a cold that has since turned into pneumonia; I spread that virus to Connie, and now she's sick too. I got us both to the doctor for shots and antibiotics, and I'm keeping us both plied with herbal tinctures and teas until we're both sloshing. But it's all left me too exhausted to keep up with these comments daily as I usually do.

Anyway, thought I'd check in and tell you all how much I have learned and benefited from your stories, thoughts, and opinions. I may not weigh in as often as usual due to some tremendous fatigue right now, but thank you for your contributions in this space. I love the dialogue that goes on here. This is where my real learning takes place.

LDSDPer said...

Oh, Rock, that's horrible.

PLEASE give Connie a cyber hug for me--

I hope you will both be able to fight this monster (pneumonia)--

and come out on top.

Soon!

Homeschool mom, that IS funny; it really is.

What could they do; excommunicate him again?

*hee, hee*

engaged 9 times, do not go away; I'm not Rock, but I daresay he welcomes your comments; we all have significant things to offer--

*says the person who doesn't run the blog and couldn't run a blog if her life depended on it*

And, homeschool mom, I am amazed at how you connected those scriptures; I had always looked at those verses in a political way, but now I see that they are very real for US as LDS now!

Wow!

I know that a lot of very good, righteous men/women have been excommunicated.

And it is so sad--

Anonymous said...

engaged19times-
Your feelings are real and valid and I am sorry if I came across as discounting them.
Rock-
I am sorry you guys are sick. I will make a nuisance of myself and give some unsolicited advice. We have found castor oil packs on the chest work miracles on pneumonia and lung congestion. My husband has asthma and it really helps alot. This was recommended to us by a naturopath. Here is a link with some info., if you have never used a castor oil pack before. Just make sure your cloth is on the chest area and draping down around the edges where the lungs are. http://altmedicine.about.com/cs/dietarytherapy/a/CastorOilPack.htm

Also, we love Naturade's "Herbal Expec". It is the best expectorant hands down, (better than anything we have tried at the pharmacy.) You probably already know this but my Dad drilled it into our heads growing up:Never take a cough suppressant when you have lung congestion. You need to cough to get the phlegm up(sorry guys!). Alot of expectorants have cough suppressants in them. Silly!
Sorry for turning this into a health blog!
LDSDper- I am glad you enjoyed the story!
Homeschool Mom

LDSDPer said...

I second the castor oil pack--

unbleached muslin or flannel works well--

it also helps if it warmed a little--

I'll be praying for you, too--

Alan Rock Waterman said...

Just when I thought I knew all the natural treatments, here comes new information about Castor Oil packs. Thanks; did not know about that remedy.

I do use a wonderful tincture called "Lungs Plus" from Western Botanicals in Spanish Fork. Also Anti-Plague Formula and other stuff. Had I started treating this at the first signs, I would not be in this boat, but I got lazy and didn't jump to it in time.

But because we're plying ourselves with teas and tinctures religiously, this thing is letting up considerably already, and I was able to do laundry and dishes yesterday. Now if I could only get motivated to pick up the the rest of the apartment, but it's easier to say "maybe tomorrow."

Thanks again for the Castor Oil tip. Now I only need to feel well enough to go out and buy that stuff. Which I don't at the moment. think I'll go back to bed.

BK said...

I agree with the comment that many righteous people are being excommunicated.

The Church doesn't seem to believe in free speech nor does it seem to want people who think for themselves and prove all things before believing.

It seems that being 'excommunicated' is often really a 'great compliment' and means you are standing for truth & right & for Christ.

For the Church clearly isn't, and it seems scared of anyone who stands for right or talks about or acknowledges 'the real truth' and who lives according to Christ's pure teachings.

If you didn't follow or believe in Christ the Church would most likely welcome you with open arms and make you one of it's leaders.

While, the Church disciplines or casts out true prophets and disciples of Christ because they won't believe in, listen to or obey their false & corrupt leaders.

Usually though, the righteous are long gone from the Church of their own free will, before their leaders ever take notice.

Anonymous said...

It occurs to me that if the mission presidents are living lavishly, then what are the upper authorities living like? In my earlier years I had occasion to stay in a few mission homes for at least a week at a time. I know the lavishness they live in, and I know what it says in the B. of Mormon about living lavishly.

When looking at the way the Gen. Authorities live, which greatly exceeds that of the mission homes, all I can think of is what it says about grinding the faces of the poor.

My husband and I were talking about the City Creek Mall and it's failure. I assured him that the Church doesn't really care about failures when they have an unlimited budget at their fingertips. It also occurred to me that they really weren't trying to make a success of that mall, but were bringing the stores they wanted to shop at closer to themselves. The demographics of the area didn't warrant those type of retailers. I can't really fault them though. Honestly, we are the suckers that blindly follow whatever we are told by the G.A. If we can't go to God and get personal revelation for ourselves, I guess we get what we desire.

If you read in D&C 124 you will see that God rejected the church because they didn't finish the Nauvoo Temple in the appointed time. Where else could they turn except to Mammon and they did immediately. Brigham Young was living lavishly while the saints struggled, and so it continues today.

Because of the B of Mormon, and Teaching of the Prophet Joseph Smith Jr., the elect will gather to the carcase to feed off from it, as stated in JST Matthew. But the carcase is dead, without spirit. The eagles are the elect of God that will feed off the truth that is within the carcase, and out of those will God restore Zion.

It's takes personal revelation to find truth. If a person will trust only in the arm of God, that person will be saved from the torments that are awaiting all those who worship the dollar, mammon, or in other words Satan's Babylon.

Anonymous said...

A good article to read is Denver Snuffer's Blog, if you haven't already:

http://denversnuffer.blogspot.com/2014/03/the-gospels-effect.html

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
BK said...

Great post & points Calleen!

I agree that it is totally our own fault for falling for & supporting these leaders and church, for there will always be wolves in sheep's clothing ready to take our money and lead us astray if we let them. It's up to us to make sure we don't fall for them.

Christ taught that it is 'impossible' for rich people to get into heaven (when he taught about the camel fitting through the eye of a needle, which is what he meant & thus taught it's impossible).

So I believe it is impossible for the Church's rich leaders to make it to heaven just on that one point alone.

Righteous men or leaders, let alone true prophets, would never live in luxury while the poor suffer around them. They would live humbly and never expect the church or members to support them, let alone expect the fatherless & poor to give them their last time.

I believe Christ's teachings also mean that 'rich' churches can't be righteous either, for they wouldn't be 'rich' if they were really taking care of the poor as they should be.

Anonymous said...

would also like to suggest that if you want to get better faster, and stay that way, you should avoid white sugar and high fructose corn syrup. I had sever allergies to plant life. 6 weeks after I stopped eating any kind of the above stated sugars, my allergies were completely gone. Clover Honey is a good substitute.

Anonymous said...

What really baffles me is that all this is written in scripture. Not only in the Bible but also our modern day scriptures,(BofM, D&C, PofGP). Don't these guys read the scriptures they so lovingly speak of and quote from? If they did, I would think they would be greatly astonished and changing their paths. However, I've been guilty of the same things. It's to easy to read over the scriptures we either don't understand or doesn't fit in to our belief system. It's too hard to admit that we are wrong and humble ourselves. Humiliation is a hard pill to swallow, and so we go on in our errors.

LDSDPer said...

@Colleen and BK,

I don't really want to talk about 'church leaders'--not those who are still living; it 'feels' like gossip; if others do it, that is their choice, but I try to refrain. I admit I have talked about Brigham Young; what a 'guy'! Yes, he did live off the people--

Those today may (or may not; I believe some do, and others don't)

I want to talk about my own shortcomings.

I agree that if we are deceived it is our own responsibility--

and there is a scripture about the very elect being deceived--

For years now my husband and I have focused on the Book of Mormon above all the other scriptures; I might add, prayerfully doing so--

and now we are reading Daymon Smith's book on the cultural history of the Book of Mormon--

WOW! It's heavy; it's deep; it's hard to understand, but we are wading through it, and I'd love to talk about it--

we are getting ready to read today's portion right now, actually--

IF we believe Joseph Smith was a prophet (in spite of mistakes he surely made), then when he said the Book of Mormon was the most correct book, I, personally, believe we should listen to him and read it, a lot.

And if we don't know all of the cultural things that were going on before, during, and after the Book of Mormon's arrival--

we can't really understand.

I used to say, "the gospel is true; the culture is corrupt"--

well, if you don't understand culture, you are condemned to suffer from it--

I'm glad Daymon Smith has done the research; apparently, he had access to the church archives--



LDSDPer said...

that sounded holier than thou, and I apologize.

I am TRYING to be 'better'--

I think the idea of the mall in downtown SLC is reprehensible; there are many things in this culture (in and out of the church) that are inexcuseable)--

but I realize that *I* am the only person I can change.

I am NOT offended when others talk about these things; it's obvious that, at some point and one some level, we have to be made aware of these incongruencies and evils--

but I am trying very hard to work out my own salvation; I can't do it for others.

Forgive, however, my obvious self-righteousness, please--

Thanks.

Peace.
:)

Anonymous said...

You'll talk about the dead prophets but not the current ones? I guess it's hard to look reality in the face, and know you need to choose. It's just easier to pretend that all is well in Zion.

Anonymous said...

Update from the court case:

Press release and commentary of the hearing can be found here:

http://www.mormonthink.com/monson-summons.htm

The Church's efforts to dismiss or gag the case from the public:

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1205788

The judges decision is due at 10am GMT tomorrow. Although an active mormon I hope this goes through and sets a legal precendent.

If nothing else comes of this it may force the corporate churches hand into being more upfront and honest about it history instead or excommunicating or shunning anyone as apostate who has legitimate historical questions.

I also hope it forces some more transparency to the financial side of things which is badly lacking at present.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
LDSDPer said...

Calleen (I misspelled your name earlier, and I apologize)--

I think you misunderstand me. These men are living, now.

Yes, I will, but I am being cautious about that as well (dead "prophets")

I hope I'm not sounding indignant here, but I don't think you can know me well enough to think that I believe "all is well in Zion"--

I apologized for sounding self-righteous, and when I realize I am being accusative or emotional, I try to be aware enough of it to apologize for that, as well.

I really don't know what point you are trying to make.

I think it is possible to talk about the current apostasy without pointing fingers at individuals.

I really do. Perhaps I am naive, but I don't think so.

I believe we all make mistakes. I do not believe in 'following' any man (only Jesus Christ, my God)--

I focus on the Book of Mormon, pretty much exclusively.

I really don't get into much else. I see plenty of reasons to include myself in 'apostasy'; that is the point I am trying to make.

I can do MORE to feed the poor; I can do MORE to help the needy. I don't need to talk about men in Salt Lake when I read the Book of Mormon and read about "apostasy"--

though, as I already explained, I think the corporate works of the LDS church are reprehensible.

There are heads of corporations (which I think, corporations, are evil across the board) who try to speak out, who try to do good. It is almost impossible, but they can be, actually, moral men.

Corporations are the evil. Why did the church become incorporated? Who knows? I don't approve, but I can still be a member of Jesus' church as easily by retaining my membership in the Mormon church as I can in any other Christian denomination.
I have become very closely acquainted with many other Christians, and they all deal with the same things.
It's universal.
I am at the point in my life where I believe in doing good and not doing harm.
How I pull that off is my business.

Thank you--

and peace--

LDSDPer said...

Rock,

I know you and Connie are sick--

so maybe this is a clumsy time to discuss this.

Does anyone else find Daymon Smith's book not easy to understand? (convoluted way of saying it)--

but very entertaining?

I think he gets a lot of points across by poking fun--

but humor can be a good teaching device.

We are almost finished with the most recent pdf download (volume 2, second part)

Sometimes he seems to ramble, but I find that, as we stick with it, it begins to make sense.

The bottom line is that *we* as LDS have revered humans and the Bible entirely too much, or that is what I am taking away from it.

And have denied the Book of Mormon or only taken it as it can be tied up with the bible.

I can see that; I can see how the bible was always held up as the 'standard' and the Book of Mormon apologized for.

The more I read it, the more I think (though I am not sure) that reading and following the tenets of the Book of Mormon would be the best, kindest, safest kind of Christianity.

As long as it is not read with a cultural bias (we Americans/Mormons are 'the best', etc.)--

As long as the Nephite propensity to 'fight' the Lamanites is not taken as a standard of truth and honesty and instead is seen as their own cultural failing.

Anyway, it is an exciting concept.

It really is.

Now I'm not saying that I regret the temple work I have done (much), though I believe it needs to be kept in perspective. Temple work can never replace repentance and faith in Christ.

Anyway, I happened upon another Mormon blog which I have rarely visited only to see someone calling Daymon Smith's writings "BS"--

which . . . well, I don't use that kind of language (sounding self-righteous; for that I am sorry but . . .)--

after all, can't there be some standard for refinement among LDS discussing such things?

I think the person saying this has probably not thought much about culture--

and can't see outside the LDS culture, which is HARD to do without being bitter towards it, very hard.

But possible; it takes a lot of suffering, I think, to do that--

not to be ethnocentric. It takes a lot of being willing to admit that *you* (anyone/I) can be part of a fallen culture, not just politically, but religiously, economically, historically, etc.--

Once a person realizes that, he/she realizes HOW much he/she needs a Savior.

Anyway, oddly enough, I had never really felt very comfortable about Sidney Rigdon, and I always wanted to like him, because he was anti-polygamy. I had always 'liked' Oliver Cowdery, and, he, too, was anti-polygamy, but whom I like or dislike hardly matters!!!
The point is the history; where is it, what does it say, etc."

Thanks, anyone, if you read this.

The person on that other site said that Smith is leading people down a rabbit hole, that he doesn't even care about the Book of Mormon himself (though I thought he eloquently said on his own site, Smith's, how he does care about it, and his words touched me deeply)--
and that he is implying that people can remain in an 'apostate church' by understanding these things.

I "hope to heaven" (strong language, yikes!) that I can. Remain by understanding what has passed before.

Believe me, I'm hanging on to that Book of Mormon with all my might--

peace--

I might add that I have Jewish and non-LDS Christian family members, and family members who used to be active LDS, and--

I don't think any of them are happier than *we* are or have better understanding or a greater desire to follow Jesus.

:(

Even though I love them, and, of course, the Jews aren't following Jesus, and many of them seem quite confused.

Anonymous said...

LDSDper- I see Rock has a new post up. I have yet to read it. I hate being perched up next to the computer, so I will wait until I can snitch my husband's smart phone and read it on there. I wanted to comment on Daymon Smith's writings. I agree they are difficult to understand. I wound up buying the first book in the series, but found it really time consuming to read. My mother will digest it faster than me(she's done raising her children!)so I passed it off to her and I will try again later. She agreed that it was difficult to understand. The wording takes alot of pondering. I definitely think it is worth reading. I would like to know if anyone has any suggestions to make it more understandable.
Homeschool Mom

LDSDPer said...

@homeschool mom,

LOL! Two minds are better than one, my husband and I are finding, as we read Smith. We do this with a lot of things, though; we actually read together a lot.
My husband is a slow reader; I tend to skim, and he processes things very differently from me, but he understands things I don't understand, and I understand things he doesn't understand. He trusts me when I explain the things I "get", and I trust him to explain the things he "gets".

Our educations were even different, different colleges, etc. He's a convert; I'm not. That kind of thing--
but it's working for us, as long as we read together.

Maybe your mother can help you figure it out--
I hope so.
Thanks for responding; I was disheartened when I read so many disparaging comments about Smith, after I have come to appreciate his 'mission' with these books--

oh well; I am usually not in sync--

:)

RuthD said...

I feel sorry for Tom Phillips. He evidently forgot to check in with Heavenly Father to receive understanding when he was seeking out the scientists and scholars. I actually came into the church by doing what Phillips did, only I went to the Lord after I started reading all the anti stuff, asked for understanding and got much more than I was asking and joined the church. Still learning and know that while the Church may not be perfect, the Gospel is, and there is more of it through Joseph Smith and The BOM, the Temple endowment, and what I have and can learn about in the LDS setting, than there is in any other group, setting, whatever. I spent years looking around before I even heard about the LDS faith and the doctrines put forth by JS. Wouldn't go back - the Lord has taught me and I don't just believe, I know. There are still things to learn and know, but I stand by what I have experienced and know.

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