Spiritual Loss
by J.J. Dewey
(To read the previous entry, click here. To start this series at the beginning, click here.)
Even though differing individuals and peoples may have the Spirit it is also true that that the light they receive is dependent on their spiritual progress and the degree with which they seek greater knowledge.
The Holy Spirit is a key or doorway through which one must pass to ascend to the maximum degree of spiritual potential.
Therefore, the fullness of light that one can receive is different for different people and different ages. In a dream the spirit of the Lord came to me and I understood that as Joseph was translating the Book of Mormon, he could find no English equivalent for the Nephite word from which “fullness” is taken. The word “fullness” is a much inferior word, yet it was the best word available. The Nephite word for “fullness” means “an adaptation to the maximum capacity of the people.” This adaptation is different for different peoples. Even that which Joseph and Brigham called a fullness of the gospel, using the Nephite definition, is far from being the fullness we would have if we were yet more spiritually advanced. We are in primary here compared to some other worlds, yet without the fullness of the Spirit there is no progress, and the little that has been received becomes lost. The scriptures make some interesting statements about the church and it’s people losing their light:
“And he that repents not, from him shall be taken even the light which he has received; for my Spirit shall not always strive with man, thus saith the Lord of Hosts.” (D&C 1:33)
“And thus ye shall become instructed in the law of my church, and be sanctified by that which ye have received, and ye shall bind yourselves to act in all holiness before me-- That inasmuch as ye do this, glory shall be added to the kingdom which ye have received. Inasmuch as ye do it not, it shall be taken, even that which ye have received.” (D&C 43:9-10)
“But with some I am not well pleased, for they will not open their mouths, but they hide the talent which I have given unto them, because of the fear of man. Wo unto such, for mine anger is kindled against them. And it shall come to pass, if they are not more faithful unto me, it shall be taken away, even that which they have.” D&C 60:2-3It is a fact that the church excommunicated me, my nephew, and many others for merely admitting to the authorities that we have received the Holy Spirit and have discovered some of the mysteries of God. The fact that they demand we hide this talent under a bushel or be banished from the kingdom is to kindle the anger of God against them as the scripture says.
And what will happen to such people who make a man an offender for his word?
“It shall be taken away, even that which they have.”
One may wonder, how can the church, the authorities and the people of the church lose that little which they have received? Do they not still have the Book of Mormon, the Bible, the Doctrine and Covenants and many other inspired writings? They can hold these documents in their hands so surely these writings will not be lost?
Or will they?
Let us answer this question with another. How many religions are there that have the Bible, yet cannot draw the many truths it contains from its pages?
The Bible teaches the principle of revelation but they do not see.
The Bible teaches a pre-existence, but again they do not see.
The Bible teaches an apostasy and restoration, but they neither see nor accept.
The Bible teaches that prophets are an essential part of the church but they will not hear nor accept.
Can we not see that there are many who have a physical Bible full of the truths of God yet have “lost” the ability to keep or even use that which they can hold in their hands?
Can we not also see that even though the LDS Church has additional scriptures that if they deny the expression of the Holy Spirit and seek to suppress this Mighty and Strong Presence from God that the Spirit and all the gifts will be lost to them?
And what is to happen if the Spirit is lost to them?
(1) There will be no new revelation of any higher knowledge.
When was the last written revelation presented to the church let alone a revelation giving greater light and truth?
Answer – over 100 years.
(2) They will not be able to understand the scriptures they presently have but merely repeat what has already been written maybe slightly changing the wording from time to time .
(3) They will fear the membership receiving or discovering truth for themselves including an accurate account of proven history which does not suit their purposes.
Michael Quinn (a previous Church Historian) and others have been excommunicated for either writing about or teaching actual events in history.
(4) There will be priestcraft. The Scripture says “that man should counsel his fellow man, neither trust in the arm of flesh.” (D&C 1:19) To cause members to trust in the arm of flesh, to fear to act without “counsel,” to follow the brethren without thinking for yourself is priestcraft.
(5) They will fear the teaching or exercise of the principle of free agency.
Sterling D. Allan, owner of the Greater Things website, attempted to teach the importance of the principle of freedom. This sincere effort led to his eventual excommunication. Numerous others have either been censored or excommunicated over this principle.
Is not free agency supposed to be a core principle in the church? It is, yet the authorities have “lost” the ability to see what free agency is.
I held many private thoughts and beliefs to myself that I could not tell to others because even the agency to think outside the box is not allowed. At the time I was excommunicated I was only teaching (within the church) doctrines approved by the authorities. I had seven church jobs the day before my excommunication and filled them all to the satisfaction of the authorities. But when I shared a mystery I had received privately with my nephew and he shared it with others, I was then called on the carpet by the thought police and excommunicated; not for anything I had done, but for what I had privately been thinking. These private thoughts were extracted from me through interrogation.
Excommunicating me for my private discoveries of mysteries through the study of scripture and prayer should indeed raise a stench to heaven incurring the displeasure of a just God. I would not come back into the church in its present condition if they came pleading to me in sackcloth and ashes. I will never again join any society that does not honor the free agency of man, especially the agency to think, contemplate and progress spiritually.
It is indeed a sad day that the only way to stay in the church is to cease reading the scriptures to avoid any unauthorized thoughts from coming into one’s mind.
Some of the early brethren realized that there would be difficulties ahead, but that there would be a handful who would be worthy of the Kingdom of God.
Brigham Young spoke of this: “God will preserve a portion of this people, of the meek and humble, to bear off the kingdom to the inhabitants of the earth.” (Contributor 10:362)
Also, Heber C. Kimball said, “But the time will come when the Lord will choose a people out of this people, upon whom He will bestow His choicest blessings.” (Des. News, Nov. 9, 1865)
Just as God chose a people out of a people in the days of Paul, so will He do it in our day. Thus the first will be last and the last first. Those who are esteemed as the least in the kingdom today will be the “first” tomorrow, while those who are first now shall be last.
Just as the Kingdom was taken from the Jews and given to the Gentiles, even so will the Kingdom be taken from the LDS and descend upon the pure in heart wherever they may be throughout the world.
Copyright J.J. Dewey, used with permission
[A note from Rock about leaving comments: Many readers have posted as "Anonymous" even though they don't wish to, only because they see no other option. If you don't have a Google, Wordpress, or other username among those listed, you can enter a username in the dropdown box that reads "Name/URL." Put your name in the "Name" box, ignore the request for a URL, and you should be good to go.
I have a pretty firm policy of never censoring or deleting comments,so if your comment does not immediately appear, it probably means it is being held in the spam filter, which seems to lock in arbitrarily on some posts for reasons unknown. If you have submitted a comment and it doesn't immediately show up, give me a nudge at RockWaterman@gmail.com and I'll knock it loose. -Rock]
Yay! I've been waiting way too long for Chapter 13 -- going back to reread some of the previous chapters to try to remember what was going on...
ReplyDeleteI don't remember which previous chapter it was but regarding the gathering of the saints. Doesn't it say that the saints will be small and spread throughout the earth? When the time comes that neighbor will be fighting against neighbor will be the time of gathering?
ReplyDeleteJ J Dewey seems like part of the lunatic fringe. I seriously question his interpretations.
ReplyDeleteThat's quite the cogent argument you put forth there, Anonymous. But I do think the rest of us would be better swayed if you were to offer specific refutations regarding those "interpretations" you find disagreeable. Ad hominem attacks are the refuge of those who have nothing to say.
ReplyDeleteYou got anything of substance to share with the class, Mr. Anonymous, or would you prefer to just put your head down on your desk and go back to sleep?
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI don't think anyone is really beyond hope. I think the L-DS Church has a chance to cleanse herself. But as Joseph Smith said that if Zion will not purify herself it will be given to another people.
ReplyDeleteIn order for the L-DS church to cleanse itself the leaders must let go of the reins. And at the same time the members must take the initiative to live according to the scriptures. In reality though I can't really see either happening.
Members who choose to live according to the scriptures and reject corporatism will most likely be excommunicated. Because of Church leadership anyone who wants to live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God will be forced out. those who want to build Zion will be forced out.
In the end I think Zion will be built by those who have been gathered out from all the churches throughout the world. There will not be anything corporate about building Zion.
Alan Rock Waterman said...
ReplyDeleteThat's quite the cogent argument you put forth there, Anonymous. But I do think the rest of us would be better swayed if you were to offer specific refutations regarding those "interpretations" you find disagreeable. Ad hominem attacks are the refuge of those who have nothing to say.
You got anything of substance to share with the class, Mr. Anonymous, or would you prefer to just put your head down on your desk and go back to sleep?
How is this an ad hominem attack? This guy got excommunicated by thinking way, way outside the box, and I am supposed to give serious credence to what he says when the entire church leadership stands united against him? Or are you positing that the entire hierarchy of the Mormon church is inferior in wisdom to JJ Dewey?
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteOr are you positing that the entire hierarchy of the Mormon church is inferior in wisdom to JJ Dewey?
Nope -- you go right on accepting everything the hierarchy says without question and rejecting anything else until you have the spiritual and intellectual maturity to think for yourself. We'll just be glad that Joseph Smith didn't do the same. Or do you expect us to believe Joseph Smith's story and at the same time understand that one shouldn't look outside of the religious authorities of his day in his quest for knowledge? In other words, do you expect us to believe and disbelieve the Joseph Smith story at the same time? No wonder people don't take us Mormons seriously...
Also, keep telling yourself that calling someone a member of the lunatic fringe isn't an ad hominem.
Nope -- you go right on accepting everything the hierarchy says without question and rejecting anything else until you have the spiritual and intellectual maturity to think for yourself. We'll just be glad that Joseph Smith didn't do the same. Or do you expect us to believe Joseph Smith's story and at the same time understand that one shouldn't look outside of the religious authorities of his day in his quest for knowledge? In other words, do you expect us to believe and disbelieve the Joseph Smith story at the same time? No wonder people don't take us Mormons seriously...
ReplyDeleteWhy don't you go join JJ Dewey's church? Oh yeah, he doesn't have one. He has a long way to go in my book before he makes his case. Is he a prophet? Does he have direct revelation from god? What are his motives? It's the easiest thing in the world to take pot-shots at Mormon doctrine and philosophy like Dewey. He is on the fringe and is a lunatic.
Rock how can anyone be exed for their private discoveries? Come on now, he must have told someone or they wouldn't be known. I know the 'brethren' think that they have the gift of revelation but mind reading??? In fact he says that he discovered mysteries. "These private thoughts were extracted from me through interrogation." He said he shared them with his nephew who shared them with others, so why would the thoughts need to be extracted from him by interrogation?
ReplyDeleteYou know that there is no love lost between me and the LDS Church; I hate what it does to people, but this man obviously is using strong language to tell about what he experienced - sometimes we do that when we are hurt or angry.
Have you watched the Youtube video Chased out of Mormonism by Lyndon Lamborn? He took a recorder to the 'trial' where he was exed and recorded the whole thing.He tells his story too in a book called Standing For Something More. You can find more about his excommunication at this link.
http://mormonthink.com/lyndonlamborn.htm
I know why the leaders get their knickers in a knot when people discover their spirituality - this is my opinion okay?
When you are a non-thinking member who believes that all truth is spouted from the mouths of 'the brethren', you are a willing slave for the corporation. When you start thinking about who YOU are and what YOU think and believe, they know that you are not going to be such a willing slave. You might say no to callings that absolutely get in the way of you leading a regular life. You might not pay tithes to the corporation any longer; you might just see a poor old man on the streets who needs that money way more than the church.
You might say, "Pay me for my work."
The temple here in Edmonton is cleaned every night after the temple is closed; at around 9:30pm. Elderly people and young people who have to get up in a few hours to go to their jobs once more, gather to do the work as willing slaves.
Why doesn't the Church not contract the work out to someone who could build a small cleaning business? The church likes to tout the idea that people should not get something for nothing, but THEY do. The corporation takes our money and ALLOWS us to work for THAT ENTITY, couched in the words, "Serving the Lord."
Love to you and your wife.
Jean,
ReplyDeleteConnie and I send our love right back at you.
The story of Dewey's excommunication (and that of his nephew)for thought crimes is told in chapter 7. If you thought the excommunications of the September Six were needlessly vindictive, wait'll you get a load of this:
http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2011/12/infallible-authority-chapter-seven.html
Steven,
ReplyDeleteI can't speak for Dewey, but I'm inclined to the view put forth by Zamorah, that there will not be anything corporate about building Zion.
So we should not be looking for another structured "Church" to rise up and take the place of this one. I see a spiritual awakening taking place among the Remnant, among people of all faiths. The spirit is moving among the whole world, drawing people from all different belief systems in a loose, unorganized awareness.
However this thing finally shakes out, I don't think it will manifest itself as one more denomination fighting for dominance. It's a universal awakening of the spirit.
Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteYou accuse Dewey of "taking potshots at Mormon doctrine and philosophy."
Perhaps you have not been reading this entire series. Dewey quotes Mormon doctrine and philosophy at great length here; he embraces the teachings of our faith. Dewey's argument is that many within the Church today, and especially within the leadership, show signs of ignoring and abandoning these valued teachings.
You also ask me "are you positing that the entire hierarchy of the Mormon church is inferior in wisdom to JJ Dewey?"
In the past five years, I have become familiar with some, but not all, of the writings of J.J. Dewey. In that same period I have also been keeping tabs on what passes for wisdom from the general conference pulpit.
I am not yet prepared to conclude that the ENTIRE hierarchy of the Mormon Church is inferior to the wisdom of J.J. Dewey, but anyone with his eyes wide open must certainly be prepared to consider the possibility.
Well, cool then. I have a humble request of you, my friend. Since I, myself, haven't a spiritual bone in my body and haven't the maturity to know truth from error, I was hoping that when this universal awakening of the spirit does take place, that you will let me know how to join the same, so that in that way I can be on the right side when everything else falls apart. I trust you, Rock. Just as long as I don't have to love anybody. If that is a requirement, then I'm doomed before I even begin. Can't I just sort of sing some songs or something like that? Please advise.
ReplyDeleteSorry, I made a mistake before in ending my comment way above here. I meant to say "Yea", not "Yeah". Here is the corrected script.
ReplyDelete"Just as the Kingdom was taken from the Jews and given to the Gentiles, even so will the Kingdom be taken from the LDS and descend upon the pure in heart wherever they may be throughout the world."
Okay. This statement sounds really cool, but I'm now asking how this will happen. Will a new legit Prophet rise up from nowhere, even as the first one did in the 1800's, and then glean the pure of heart from every religion in the world (would he personally approve each one at the time of entering?)? Would he be LDS himself or somebody already excommunicated by the powers that be? Would his last name start with the letter "D"?
I think that this statement is absurd, because he doesn't define just who or what the "pure in heart" is. Undefined, it is just another high-sounding phrase that pats the egos of those who believe that they are it. Yea, ego!
"Just as the Kingdom was taken from the Jews and given to the Gentiles, even so will the Kingdom be taken from the LDS and descend upon the pure in heart wherever they may be throughout the world."
ReplyDeleteClose...It will be taken from the Gentiles and given to the Jews / House of Israel would be more accurate as the Book of Mormon states:
1 Ne 13:42.
42 And the time cometh that he shall manifest himself unto all nations, both unto the Jews and also unto the Gentiles; and after he has manifested himself unto the Jews and also unto the Gentiles, then he shall manifest himself unto the Gentiles and also unto the Jews, and the last shall be first, and the first shall be last.
3 Ne 16:10-12 further clarifies:
10 And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.
11 And then will I remember my covenant which I have made unto my people, O house of Israel, and I will bring my gospel unto them.
12 And I will show unto thee, O house of Israel, that the Gentiles shall not have power over you; but I will remember my covenant unto you, O house of Israel, and ye shall come unto the knowledge of the fulness of my gospel.
Although the gospel will be brought to the Jews / House of Israel, a portion of the Gentiles who humble themselves will also receive these things (verse 13):
13 But if the Gentiles will repent and return unto me, saith the Father, behold they shall be numbered among my people, O house of Israel.
Those that do not repent will be trodden down. They are the salt that has lost its savor (verse 15):
15 But if they will not turn unto me, and hearken unto my voice, I will suffer them, yea, I will suffer my people, O house of Israel, that they shall go through among them, and shall tread them down, and they shall be as salt that hath lost its savor, which is thenceforth good for nothing but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of my people, O house of Israel.
Alan Rock Waterman said...
ReplyDeleteAnonymous,
You accuse Dewey of "taking potshots at Mormon doctrine and philosophy."
Perhaps you have not been reading this entire series. Dewey quotes Mormon doctrine and philosophy at great length here; he embraces the teachings of our faith. Dewey's argument is that many within the Church today, and especially within the leadership, show signs of ignoring and abandoning these valued teachings.
You also ask me "are you positing that the entire hierarchy of the Mormon church is inferior in wisdom to JJ Dewey?"
In the past five years, I have become familiar with some, but not all, of the writings of J.J. Dewey. In that same period I have also been keeping tabs on what passes for wisdom from the general conference pulpit.
I am not yet prepared to conclude that the ENTIRE hierarchy of the Mormon Church is inferior to the wisdom of J.J. Dewey, but anyone with his eyes wide open must certainly be prepared to consider the possibility.
Rock:
I've watched some of this guys you tube videos and I have to say he is pretty creepy. He may utter some truth, but being closely associated with, and extolling the virtues of an excommunicated member is risky, and I advise you to carefully consider what you are doing. Are you willing to risk your membership in order to publish this guy's stuff?
I too have serious misgivings against the church leadership, but I learned a long time ago the biggest problem in this world is one man trying to control another. Dewey is trying to influence people to satisfy his hidden agenda. I don't care what views he holds as long as he keeps them to himself, and does not publish them. He has no authority or calling to do so, and neither do you. Who are you trying to sway? My philosophy is let every man decide the truth for himself, without any pressure from me.
Thanks for the link Rock but it still doesn't clear it up for me. I'm a little sensitive to whacky thoughts and beliefs and mysteries etc. For anyone who believes in 'knee fights' this is not meant to be offensive, but it is hard for me to hear anything with any amount of belief when that person actually quotes from the Book of Mormon Fiction and believes that he can get into the mysteries. I don't think that the 'brethren' have the corner on that, I just don't believe that anyone does.
ReplyDeleteYour friend wrote the list of things they had against him in the trial but not a list of those things/mysteries that he expounded to his nephew. I need both sides of the story; not to protect the 'brethren' or the corporation, but just out of a sense of justice. The story is very one sided and reminds me way too much of the one sided version of events that the church dishes out, such as the Thomas B Marsh talk by Thomas S Monson last conference. That was lying by exclusion of other necessary details.
Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteI'm a bit baffled as to what it is about Dewey that you find so fearful. I confess that I'm not very familiar with his videos. I didn't know of any other than the one on relationships, and I find nothing creepy about him. Or are you judging the man by his looks?
If you have a criticism regarding the substance of his message, I wish you would share it. Simply saying the man strikes you as "pretty creepy" does not help the rest of us understand what it is about his actual thoughts or ideas that you find objectionable.
Your inference that Dewey is "one man trying to control another" is just downright puzzling. Every chapter posted is imbued with disdain for those men who would attempt to control others by dint of a claim to authority. What evidence do you have for even making such an absurd accusation about Dewey?
Dewey does not purport to be anyone's guru, nor does he desire to have anyone follow him, unlike certain authorities within our own church.
So what is Dewey's "hidden agenda" of which you speak? And since when does a man require authority or calling in order to share his thoughts with others?
You say your philosophy is to "let every man decide the truth for himself, without any pressure from me," yet what you seem to be about here is pressuring me to pay no attention to someone else's ideas and thoughts.
"Extolling the virtues of an excommunicated member is risky," you warn me, "and I advise you to carefully consider what you are doing."
Seriously? Are you so taken by idolotry toward the Brethren that you believe the act of sharing the thoughts of someone who has been unjustly excommunicated is actually dangerous?
I would remind you that the very beliefs Dewey was excommunicated for are supported by scripture and remain a common belief by a great many devout members of the church and church leaders down through the years. Dewey was excommunicated not because he was doctrinally in error, but because his stake president was ignorant of these doctrines and they sounded strange to him. Dewey was not wrong, his stake president was wrong for not being grounded in the teachings of his own religion.
You continue to neglect to give any specifics as to just what it is about Dewey's ideas that you find so offensive, yet you ask me, "Are you willing to risk your membership in order to publish this guy's stuff?"
First, do you really think that by sharing the thoughts of other people, whether they be members or non-members, I risk the loss of my membership?
Second, what kind of person would want to be a member of any institution that denied him his freedom of conscience or of association? Certainly not Martin Luther, certainly not Joseph Smith, certainly not untold numbers of reformers and martyrs, and certainly not me.
A primary tenet of our religion can be found in Alma 30, verse 7: "Now there was no law against a man’s belief; for it was strictly contrary to the commands of God that there should be a law which should bring men on to unequal grounds."
If you so fear your religion that you feel it has the right to dictate a narrow set of beliefs for you, I'd say you embrace a different faith than I do. The gospel of Jesus Christ as restored through Joseph Smith was intended to put an end to parochialism.
Steven,
ReplyDeleteDidn't you know? You're already a part of the awakening.
Nevertheless, I'm putting your phone number at the top of my contact list so you'll be notified when it all comes down.
Jean,
ReplyDeleteYour wish is my command.
The entire contents of the letter that Dewey wrote to his nephew, and which his nephew then shared with others which resulted in both men being found guilty of holding beliefs "not in harmony with the Church" is found in Chapter Ten, right here:
http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2011/12/infallible-authority-chapter-ten.html
Be forewarned that Dewey's thesis contains several references to that wacky Book of Mormon fiction that you now reject, so I don't expect you to be converted to his view. But I do reckon you'll have a better understanding of the injustice committed by a the local Idaho anointed.
And wait a minute...Are you saying our Fearless Leader, Thomas Monson, was not entirely up front about all the facts in the Thomas Marsh affair?
I am shocked!
Thanks, Rock! Now I just hope that I will live long enough to actually receive that call. I think that the first step is to lose some weight, and maybe stop eating so much Menudo, but I'm not giving up my iMac for anything. They'll have to pry that out of my cold, dead fingers!
ReplyDeleteBy the way, I just discovered the blog by The Stake President. He's great, and his comments work so well because he knows the subcultural verbiage and phrasing that the Church uses down pat. All of that faux humility and faux love for one another stuff that I could never master myself, that is the language of the anti-Christ, if he ever decides to show up. I have, for decades, realized that the great weakness of the Mormon People is that they only act out the love and humility of true Christianity because they are only following orders from above, which tends to short-circuit the complete spontaniety that such feelings must derive from.
Indeed, take a look at most Evangelical groups and then at any Mormon ward and the difference between heart-felt and institutionalized/overly-analyzed emotion becomes absolutely stark.
Rock:
ReplyDeleteYou have made the mistake of thinking that the church is a democracy, it is not. The leaders from the general authorities down to the bishops rule with absolute control. If you think a little moaning and complaining on your blog and publishing manuscripts from foul balls like Dewey are going to change the status quo, you are sadly mistaken. I'm not suggesting that you clam up, but I am suggesting that your actions will not go unnoticed forever. You will eventually have to decide if it is worth it for you to be able to blow off steam while your membership hangs in the balance, or if you will do what you can do as an individual in your own sphere without trying to sway the opinions of others. After all, the point of your blog is to influence other people, isn't it? Church headquarters doesn't care what goes on in your head, but they will not tolerate open rebellion. You do what you want. I'm just sayin...
Absolute control is contrary to the law if free agency for which there was a war in heaven.
DeleteI can't speak for Rock but...personally I love the restored Church but am sickened by the corrupt corporate institution that mainstream mormonism has become.
ReplyDeleteMost people, when they come to the realization of what has happened to our Church, just leave or remain silent. Some, like Rock, publish their discoveries in hopes that others may see what has happened.
I don't view it as "blowing off steam". The last I heard...it's called courage.
If one views him/herself as being baptized into the Church of Jesus Christ, and a corporation that pretends to be His Church wants to cancel your membership....so what? They can only cancel your membership in their corporation...they have no power/authority to cancel one's membership in the Church.
Bruce Johns has perfectly captured my reaction to the words of Anonymous at 2:20 above when he says,"so what?"
ReplyDeleteBrother Dewey has the right -and I would say obligation- to expound on the scriptures of the Restoration and the teachings of its founding prophets without any need to obtain permission from those who hold the chief seats in the synagogue, and I am free to disseminate his thoughts and ideas on this forum.
The Church of Jesus Christ is defined in D&C 10:67. No man on earth has the power to remove me from the Lord's church. I can make the choice to stay, or I can leave at any time. I choose to stay.
On the other hand, "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-say Saints" has been shown to be a mere trademark owned by Intellectual Reserve, Inc., which is a subsidiary of the Corporation of the President, a legal entity incorporated under the laws of the United States. That organization can can do whatever it likes. I wield no influence in that "Church" nor do I seek to.
Our friend Anonymous assumes things about me that are not in evidence, such as that I believe the Church is a democracy. At no time have I ever claimed either the Church of Christ or the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is any kind of democracy. The former is a theocracy, and the latter is an earthly corporation.
Which is why I find it odd that Anonymous makes the further error of assuming I have any desire to change either church. I would not presume to tell God how to run things, and I have no desire to "change" the institutional corporate "Church"(TM)that has claimed authority over that which was founded through the prophet Joseph Smith.
The modern corporate Church(TM)simply is what it is, and I would no more presume to impose my will on that organization than I would on the internal workings of the Walt Disney Company during the decade I was associated with that corporate entity.
As human beings we all tend to veer a little off course now and then and are in need of small course corrections almost all the time. That's what continuous repentance is all about; making those little course corrections that get us back on track.
JJ Dewey detects,(rightly, I believe)that many of us Latter-day Saints have veered from the perfect path laid out for us in the teachings of our religion. I believe he does us a great service by pointing out how we have strayed, and has suggested ways of getting ourselves headed back in the right direction. In a word, he is calling us to repentance. I, for one, believe his words warrant consideration.
I would say this to my Anonymous friend: I hope I am humble enough to accept your honest call to repentance if you detect I am veering away from the pure teachings of Christ. I am always grateful when someone points out to me when and where I have been in error.
But if what you are attempting to warn me about is that what I present on these pages may not meet with the approval of certain ecclesiastical leaders, you might want to engage in a bit of course correction yourself.
We have entered into a time of "quickening." The truth cannot be held back. Even 10 years ago there was not access to information (history), research tools (scripture searching) and other people's insights (fellowship) like there is today.
ReplyDeleteIt used to be that TPTB could easily control the ranks, because folks with questions did not have access to out of the box ideas. Yes, books were available, but if you sought those sorts of things out, you were considered "fringe" and on the road to apostasy. It was easy for the Church to label those "types" and instill fear of searching the "mysteries" into the members.
Nowadays, a person can self-publish a book or anonymously post a blog comment, and it is readily available to the masses instantly, with little repercussion for action against members, unless they are overly vocal about it. But who needs to put ideas out there to people who are not ready to hear it (at a local level) and risk disciplinary action, when there are so many like-minded people eating it up on the internet?
The Church cannot avoid this stone rolling forth. Yes, they can turn up the threatening undertones, but mark my words... it is going to catch up to them. More and more members are going to start seeing the oppressive dogma imposed by those in "authority," as they might suppose and wake up to the true vision that Joseph had for the Church (as stated in articles like this one, subtitled "Joseph Smith's Unfinished Reformation"
https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/pdf/141-32-41.pdf ).
More and more people are going to be able to share insights into the deep symbolism and message of the Book of Mormon, which will lift the "condemnation" for those few who repent and turn to Christ. (For some FANTASTIC commentary on the Book of Mormon, I recommend the latest posts on
www.weepingforzion.com )
Christ does not give much hope to the Church organization as a collective. Indeed, it is prophesied to be trodden under. I believe we're seeing the beginnings of this, and probably within a short time (a few years maybe), the house of cards will begin to crumble. Of course, hope is always offered to the individual, which is where Zion will start in the first place.
To "Anonymous," who said: " I'm not suggesting that you clam up, but I am suggesting that your actions will not go unnoticed forever." I would turn it around to say that the corporate Church's actions cannot go unnoticed forever, and the chickens will come home to roost. You make a very good point in saying, "You will eventually have to decide if it is worth it..." We are all coming to the point where we will have to choose this day whom to serve. Will we "obey" without question the rules of a corporate CEO? Or will we "live by every word" which proceeds out of the mouth of God?
I agree, as vital hidden truths are finally coming out again after 165+ years, we are all going to have to decide whether we believe the proven & published doctrines & teachings of Joseph Smith or the opposite doctrines & teachings & followers of Brigham Young?
ReplyDeleteWho would you have believed & followed back in 1844, Joseph or Brigham?
For they taught completely opposite doctrines. No one can say they follow both, for that's impossible.
If you study 'abusive mentalities' you find that all abusive people, leaders & organizations & those who exercise 'unrighteous dominion', always want to control what people think & do & say.
ReplyDeleteAbusive people & leaders almost always think they are wiser, smarter, more spiritual & more knowledgeable in the ways of God, & that they are right & can't be wrong. Thus, they always want the people under them to just let them do the thinking & so if your opinion or revelation differs from theirs, they believe 'you' are the one in error.
If Brigham Young was the imposter that Joseph Smith said he was, because he taught 'contrary' doctrine to what Joseph taught & what Christ & the scriptures taught, then there is no true Church on the earth anymore & BY & his followers immediately lost their Priesthood & keys because of committing evil or supporting it.
As was prophesied would happen, the true Church that Joseph Smith restored became corrupted & went into apostasy & broke up after Joseph's death & the people were left alone or dispersed into different groups to just dwindle in unbelief.
"Every one of your churches has become polluted. Why have ye polluted the Holy Church of God.?" Mormon 8
"Because of pride & wickedness & abominations & whoredoms, they have all gone astray, save it be a few." 2 Nephi 28:14
"All those who preach false doctrines & commit whoredoms & prevert the right way, wo wo wo unto them, for they shall be thrust down to hell."
2 Nephi 28
So though the Church still has the Book of Mormon & other true scriptures, & teaches many good & true things & does much good, the Church still teaches, supports & encourages whoredoms, like polygamy in the past & future & 'serial' polygamy (after the divorce or death of a wife) in the present. The Church also supports the abuse, adultery & abandonment in divorce & remarriage cases.
The Church still teaches the subjugation & submission of women to men, in marriage & in the church. Women have been relagated to a secondary position. Church leaders teach that men are the head of the home, when in reality both the husband & the wife equally preside as the 'head's (Co-Presidents) of the home & have equal right & authority in all the leadership of the family. Neither is over the other in any way & both must submit to & listen to each other equally.
As you take a close look around you, you can see that everyone in the Church today either commits or supports evils, falsehoods & whoredoms, yet doesn't see it & they still feels righteous & look wonderful, even still doing many good works.
The unrighteous almost always feel that they are 'righteous'. That's why it's so easy to be deceived by them & be deceived to think we aren't unrighteous when we really are. For the wicked almost always feel & look like they are righteous, good, kind & helpful people who often do lots of service, most all of the time.
I wonder if there are some lone few righteous men in the world who still possess the Priesthood of God, having had it handed down to them through truly righteous men from Joseph's day, who did not fall for such false doctrines & whoredoms & who still believe in & live the Gospel of Jesus Christ & the teachings of Joseph Smith.
Soon Joseph Smith will return with Christ & they will restore once again what has been lost & corrupted.
Correction: Everyone in the Church today, 'except a few', commit or support evil.
ReplyDeleteThere are a few rare people in the Church who have woken up to the unrighteousness being preached, practiced & supported around them.
TL,
ReplyDeleteWell said. I wonder if the priesthood power, though handed down from father to son, is perhaps lying dormant within us all until that day the church repents. Is it still there, even though largely inoperable?
It cannot be denied that priesthood blessings of healing of the sick rarely attain to the miraculous as was once common in this church. Yet, you still hear of such things here and there, though seldom occurring through the leadership.
We rarely hear of anyone in the hierarchy performing any actual miracles, though they are constantly exercising their priesthood through the giving of blessings, etc. We occasionaly hear of healing miracles taking place among the obscure and humble, but rarely from those with title and high station
The stories Monson told at the last conference to demonstrate that he "has learned to listen to the voice of God" were nowhere near as impressive as the things that used to come through Joseph Smith.
Funny, TL basically restated what I said above about one man wanting to control another, and Rock gives him an attaboy. Go figure.
ReplyDeleteYou deserve an "attaboy" too, Anonymous; it's just that TL's comment triggered an additional thought in me that I felt like expressing in the moment.
ReplyDeleteI wish to heck this program offered a "like" button. I guarantee that I any many others would have clicked "like" on your comment above.
I very often agree wholeheartedly with a lot of people who comment here, but I don't always have the time to respond individually, and I sometimes only see the latest one at first glance. Your astute observation was one of those that got away.
There is a splinter group of the old Reorganites existing in Georgia that might still follow the old ways. They even have a bonifide descendant of Joseph himself leading them.
ReplyDeleteReally, Steven? Who is the descendant? And what do they call themselves?
ReplyDeleteAlan,
ReplyDeleteI believe that 'righteous' men everywhere, no matter what religion they are, possess much more of God's active 'power' than they realize, which I believe is bestowed upon them because of their personal righteousness & they can use it to heal, bless, teach & even prophecy etc. as they feel inspired to.
Any man can become a powerful Prophet merely because of his own righteousness & then at some point God will give him authority, in this life or the next, to do even more things with his power.
Men need God's 'authority' (or permission) to use the power they have for certain other things like 'to start a Church' or 'baptize' someone or 'bless the sacrament', etc. which authority will probably have to be conferred upon the man by someone who already possess that 'authority'.
So while the 'authority' may be dormant or inoperative or even lost, to perform certain ordinances, the 'power' of God to act in his name in many ways, as if he were here, need never be lost & is automatically bestowed upon a person if they are righteous.
I believe that having the power to heal, bless, teach & prophecy is in proportion to one's personal righteousness & the degree of Christlike love they develop & possess.
So there is much that righteous men everywhere can do with God's 'power' they possess, even without the 'authority' to do some things.
And as we know, women in the early Church used to bless & heal people too, which I believe was proper & right & should have been continued.
I believe women at least, bring their power 'and' a greater to lesser degree of authority with them from the Pre-Existence, where they were fore-ordained to act in God's name here on earth in many ways but most importantly in bearing children.
There may be an even higher authority for additional purposes, that women must receive on this earth 'by further ordination' by those in authority, when such true authority exists on the earth.
But I believe that 'birth' is one of the most important ordinances we all accept in this life. And women certainly officiate in that ordinance for their children, by blood sweat & tears, so their children can have life & progress on to salvation.
It is in a smaller way similar to the supreme ordinance I believe the Savior performed & officiated for us, by virtue of his Priesthood power & authority, when he atoned for our sins with his blood, sweat & tears. If we except that ordinance of Atonement through our repentance, we can have life eternal & be saved.
I believe that Heavenly Father honors prayers & blessings of healing of any man or woman who lives righteously, according to the level of knowledge they have.
TL,
ReplyDeleteI and many of my Female friends have believed this for MANY years. One of my friends read a journal entry in Dialogue, and it bothered her for quite some time- although she has stayed a TBM for many years; believing that it was possible to quietly pray, receive revelation from God and administer to her friends, when they asked her.(This was quite "overwhelming" to her, when she was asked by her 1st friend to give her a blessing and it not only was given as to what to say; but was very humbled, when it all came true!)
Since then, we have all "received"- even though most of us "fell away" from the entity some have called the "Corporate church" and what we all truly believe to be the "Church of Brigham Young", as it pretty much does not even come close to what Joseph Smith taught and brought forth. (Do some serious reading of ALL scripture and you will find much.) I was amazed when I was praying one day about the Prophet and revelation, and was told "My Child, you are a Prophet unto yourself." I received a burning not only of the bosom but of the entire body! I have received this witness only when I pray about certain things that Joseph Smith received. Such as reincarnation! (A truth I DID NOT wish to know the "witness" of!) Also,I might add the absolute witness of Joseph Smith. It went on for 45 minutes. WITNESS NOT REALLY HOPED FOR- BUT RECEIVED IN A WAY I CAN NEVER...EVER...DENY!
Truthseeker,
DeleteThank you for that response. It is good to know that others understand that women also receive the power & authority of God. For Heavenly Father gives his daughters, even 1st, if they are righteous, all the blessings, gifts, powers, authority, privileges, & positions that he offers to his righteous sons.
For Heavenly Father is so grateful to women for being willing to put their life on the line, time after time, to bear his sons & daughters.
He is also grateful to his daughters for being willing to come down to this earth & save his sons (their husbands) by the marriage covenant which has the power to save, if they need saving because of unrighteousness & many husbands do. Of course his sons can also save his unrighteous daughters (their wives) & some do.
But Heavenly Father & his daughters knew beforehand that most all men, except a few righteous men, would use strong unrighteous dominion over them throughout the history of the world, & abuse & control them in the home, church & most all societies, as we see has happened, with things like polygamy, unequal laws & rights for women, even many religions, including the current LDS, that teach women are subservient to & must submit to & listen to men & cannot have the same power, authority & station as men. Spouse abuse has been, & is still, rampant throughout the world since time began & still happens in most marriages & homes, even in the Church.
And of course, often women fall too & abuse their husbands in many serious ways.
But it has taken 6000 years for men to finally honor women's equality & rights in many ways, yet still not all ways.
Sadly though, in some countries it is still as it has been for women for 6000 years.
I agree with you that all men & women can & are commanded to, of their own right, be Prophets & Prophetesses to their families & all those who will listen to their inspired revelations & be warned.
I am not trying to teach anyone anything. I just want to share something. I don't know if it will help anyone.
ReplyDeleteFirst, throughout the scriptures there is much mention of "gifts" of the spirit.
In other words, each person has different strengths (and weaknesses)
Second, sometimes it seems that some of the things that Jesus Christ said contradict, which may have something to do with the fact that He accounted for differences in gifts and gave counsel where it could be used?
I am what might be called a "born again" Mormon. My entire testimony is based upon Jesus Christ, as the Book of Mormon defines Him and His mission. But I still refer to the Bible.
Matthew 10:16 and 17: Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synogogues.
(This is repeated in D&C 111)
Matthew 7:6--Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
Jesus Christ didn't give this counsel as a punishment; He gave it as a protection, because He loved his disciples. And He loves us. And those warnings stand.
It's not a "punishment" when any of us make a mistake and go against this wise advice--
D&C 6:12, Make not thy gift known unto any save it be those who are of thy faith.
I have always believed that when I receive personal revelation that is additional to or possibly different from what is taught in Sunday School Gospel Doctrine that I keep it to myself. I have shared things with a spouse, and I have shared things with a close sibling. I have trusted these people, because I consider them to be "of my faith". Because someone has an "LDS" label doesn't mean he/she is "of my faith". Joseph Smith could testify to that as well.
I am simply sharing what I have done. "wise as serpents" mean that I don't write it out anywhere anyone can see it.
I am sorry that this happened to J.J. Dewey; I truly am. And I am sure that Jesus Christ is aware of what has happened to Him. I have made many, many mistakes. I cannot go into greater detail about why my husband and I had our recommends threatened, because it would involve talking about one of our children, and in the process I would reveal too much about our family. But believe me when I say that we were completely innocent and well within our rights. Or don't believe me. I am grateful for agency! Believe me or believe me not.
I share these scriptures, because I have learned that there are wolves in sheeps' clothing. I do still believe that the church exists within and in spite of the corporation. It's kind of hidden; it's in captivity. And Jesus is aware of all that those of us who have been cast out of synagogues are going through. Some of us have not lost membership, but we have been cast out in a more figurative sense.
It is nice to have a place to discuss this anonymously.
Thank you, everyone, for your indulgence.