tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post9072688843504020050..comments2024-03-28T15:23:18.071-07:00Comments on Pure Mormonism: Where'd Everybody Go?Alan Rock Watermanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comBlogger219125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-13025145998657877772015-05-08T02:59:39.527-07:002015-05-08T02:59:39.527-07:00Everybody Go at wagon store
folding sport wagonEverybody Go at wagon store<br /><a href="http://www.thewagonstore.com" rel="nofollow">folding sport wagon</a> The Wagon Storehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13983718600653901384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-4365151193826444182015-04-12T07:29:39.452-07:002015-04-12T07:29:39.452-07:00Log is right. My EXPERIENCE has shown me he is rig...Log is right. My EXPERIENCE has shown me he is right. But I guess each soul has to touch it, taste it, hear it, see it, and smell it for himself before he, too, KNOWS it is right. <br /><br />"Letting go" and "letting God" requires tremendous faith and ample knowledge, gained only by experience. There is no replacement for either. (This is the "oil" each must gain for one's self to fill one's "lamp".)Good Willhttp://www.in200wordsorless.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-4294936697618057802015-04-09T09:56:09.146-07:002015-04-09T09:56:09.146-07:00With regard to sacramental wine: When I was a kid...With regard to sacramental wine: When I was a kid in the 1960s, my dad and his business partners purchased a piece of land from a retired farmer in Washington, Utah just outside of St. George. This land included a remnant of an old vineyard. The farmer said that the vineyard had been planted in Brigham Young's time to produce sacramental wine.N. W. Claytonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01030551955541439685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-74456061950544557252015-04-05T11:27:09.088-07:002015-04-05T11:27:09.088-07:00John,
I actually find very few situations that C...John, <br /><br />I actually find very few situations that Christ's teachings don't give us the necessary guidance on. As far as your example goes, I can relate more then you know to that example & I believe that helping them with 'mundane' things is probably what they need very most in the coming years, especially if they are a single parent with children still at home. <br /><br />But emotional support, empathy & encouragement is wonderful too & I believe Christ taught us quite a lot to help us know what to say to a person who has lost a loved one. He showed us that relationships are always eternal (when he appeared to Mary (who I believe was his wife) and many other people. He showed us that we can not only be with them again someday after this life but that they can visit us during this life, seen & unseen, & comfort us, talk to us and maybe even eat with us & embrace us, etc, if we are worthy of such visits. I know many people who's loved ones visit them regularly & give them counsel & comfort or just loving companionship. <br /><br />Christ also taught us many other things that help us to feel great comfort & even joy & celebration for our loved ones when they pass, not sorrow for them, though we truly will miss them, but our happiness for them can help curb our own sorrow. For if they were righteous then they are far happier now & if they weren't righteous they are finally getting the help they need to become so. BKnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-41056962414212852912015-04-05T09:05:13.713-07:002015-04-05T09:05:13.713-07:00BK,
Thank you for your long reply.
I'm sorry...BK,<br /><br />Thank you for your long reply.<br /><br />I'm sorry that things have happened in your life that have led you to hold such a low opinion of our LDS Church leaders. I disagree with your assessment that LDS Prophets act "almost completely opposite" from Christ in every way and that none "of the LDS prophets have believed in even 1 of the 10 commandments or kept any of Christ's other commandments." But I am reasonably confident that nothing I can write will convince you otherwise, so I won't try.<br /><br />You are a follower of Christ and your faith in Him will sustain you. But the few words of Christ that we have in the 4 Gospels, filtered through the minds of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, great as they are, do not address every situation we may encounter. For example, what specific words should we say to comfort a person who has suffered the loss of a loved one? Or should we say nothing and just embrace them and help them with such mundane things as laundry and vacuuming? The guidance of the Holy Ghost whom Christ has sent to help us in all things is important in these situations. I agree that recognizing the promptings of the Spirit is sometimes difficult, but that shouldn't keep us from seeking those promptings and doing our best to follow what we perceive them to be.<br /><br />I wish you the best.<br /><br />JohnJohnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00448728584336207199noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-65714677978607063102015-04-05T09:00:32.334-07:002015-04-05T09:00:32.334-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00448728584336207199noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-23315792166678223762015-04-05T08:27:46.802-07:002015-04-05T08:27:46.802-07:00Homeschool Mom,
Yes, I have some comments on that...Homeschool Mom,<br /><br />Yes, I have some comments on that issue. Positions of leadership in the Church are filled through inspiration by those in authority to issue the call to that position. Then those people are ratified (or not ratified) in the position to which they have been called by the common consent of the Church membership. It is the privilege and the right of each Church member to ratify those called or, if they know of some reason why someone shouldn't be ratified, to oppose the ratification of that person. When a Church member votes to ratify a person in his/her calling, this is also generally considered a pledge to sustain that person in his/her calling.<br /><br />It seems to me entirely proper for someone who sincerely considers a person unworthy of a particular calling to oppose the ratification of that person. I believe those who opposed the ratification of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve in General Conference yesterday and were willing to be identified by name afterward were very courageous. I thought it improper for them to shout their opposition, but I understand they probably felt they would be unnoticed if they just raised their hand when the opposing vote was called for.<br /><br />I don't agree with everything our Church leaders do, but I am happy to ratify their callings and to sustain them as best I can. General Church leaders have difficult and challenging responsibilities and have to make decisions that will never please everyone. I believe that someone in a position of leadership has a right to be sustained in that position and that sustaining them includes letting them know when you think they err. But as long as they hold their position, they should be supported in their final decision even when it goes against your counsel.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00448728584336207199noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-37367636789364343082015-04-04T23:40:02.715-07:002015-04-04T23:40:02.715-07:00On the subject of missionaries leaving early, here...On the subject of missionaries leaving early, here are a few of my thoughts.<br /><br />I think there are two things which ought to change: First, remove the maximum age limit for men. Unless it's changed since I've been out (2006-2008), the age limit was 25 years old. I can think of no scriptural or spiritual reason why this limit is in place (only behaviorally manipulative reasons). There's no age limit for women as far as I know.<br /><br />If anything, the MINIMUM age requirement should be raised to 25--but I know there are several reasons why this will never happen with things as they are now (said reasons being summed up in one word: Money).<br /><br />Anyway, I served in the Philippines; for various reasons, most of the Filipinos were older than everyone else. My favorite companion was a Filipino convert--a rice farmer (if I remember correctly) from a different island. He was 25 when he was baptized, and was just barely young enough to leave on the mission in time. In fact, he had just turned 26 when I became his companion (I was his second companion). Well, in that haste to go on a mission, he never got a chance to read The Book of Mormon in his own language or dialect, and he didn't understand other languages well enough to get the full meaning out of what he was reading. So he was essentially reading The Book of Mormon for the first time while we were together (not to mention other scriptures--I just checked, the rest of the triple isn't even available in his language). In spite of these problems, he did well. Could you imagine how well he would have done (or at least how much easier it would have been for him) had he been able to prepare properly? Ultimately, his testimony of the gospel got him through.<br /><br />Which leads to my second thing which ought to change: Stop pressuring others to go on missions before they are ready. Or maybe an even bolder proposition: Stop pressuring others to go on missions--PERIOD. Let people get ready at their own pace, on their own terms. Let them decide for themselves if they want to go. I've always believed that the mission field is NOT the place for missionaries to get testimonies on the basics--i.e. God, Jesus, the Gospel, the Book of Mormon, etc. They should have experience with those already. They should understand the Holy Ghost already. They should be born of the Spirit already.<br /><br />With these changes in mind, they then need to cut out the mission rules and ideas/traditions that have nothing to do with anything of any importance. Like the idea that the spirit will somehow stop working if you start personal study at 8:04 instead of 8:00. Or overrestrictive study and music guidelines. Heck, my first mission president said during a zone conference that we shouldn't even be reading the Old Testament! (Or in his words, we didn't have time to be reading it; okay I admit, depending on which part of the OT, I can see where he was coming from--but still, saying we shouldn't be reading certain scriptures?)<br /><br />They should also stop running missions like businesses--that goes for the rest of the Church organization too.<br /><br />So I just realized that the problems missionaries face are the same ones that new converts face: Being pressured to leave[join] before they are ready, and/or being burdened by leaders and older missionaries[members] with things unrelated to the Gospel of Christ (and sometimes with things in opposition to the Gospel too).mtman318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-69921952609211423962015-04-04T23:19:49.103-07:002015-04-04T23:19:49.103-07:00Rock,
The more often I see the picture on this po...Rock,<br /><br />The more often I see the picture on this post, the sadder I get about it. It captures the theme quite well, unfortunately.Jared Liveseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10309044282039536254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-8988550369350253502015-04-04T23:15:07.351-07:002015-04-04T23:15:07.351-07:00Just wondering if anyone has any comments about th...Just wondering if anyone has any comments about the dissenting votes in conference today.<br /><br />Hey Rock! I think I figured out how to post!Homeschool Momnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-72100770756102817042015-04-04T13:26:25.573-07:002015-04-04T13:26:25.573-07:00John,
Thank you for your reply.
I agree we are...John, <br /><br />Thank you for your reply. <br /><br />I agree we are all imperfect people, but Christ said to believe anyone to be a true prophet unless they keep 'all' of his commandments. So, true prophets would be pretty close to perfect'. And why would I believe someone is a prophet or follow them if they are no better then me? <br /><br />But Christ didn't say to follow prophets anyway, he said to follow 'Him'. So while it would be nice to have true prophets around to see how they can really be so perfect, it's definitely not necessary, for we just need to follow Christ. And if we aren't following Christ words, we won't follow a true prophet's words either, for they would be the very same. <br /><br />It is men & false prophets who have commanded that we follow 'them'. <br /><br />And I agree that Christ taught that 'the Spirit' can teach us all things, but he also said to 'test' those spirits and to make sure they are really from God & teaching only the things that Christ taught. That is what I don't think we usually do. It seems that most LDS just assume that what they feel or learn from the Spirit or from their leaders is true, without proving & testing it 1st like Christ said to, so we aren't deceived, as he said most everyone will be. <br /><br />And for a long time I also didn't see all the things that the leaders of the Church preach & practice that are 'contrary' to Christ's teachings, until I looked closer at what Christ actually taught & compared it with LDS leader's, past & present. Then I began to see it all.<br /><br />Christ said true prophets don't lie (about polygamy, etc), don't abuse their wives or women, don't abandon their families, aren't racist, don't live polygamy, don't murder (Nephi & Laban), don't disrespect women's full equality or withhold equal power & position from them (Golden Rule), don't take money from the fatherless & poor or anyone to pocket themselves or build fine sanctuaries with, etc. These are all things that the Church admits their leaders or prophets do or have done.<br /><br />True prophets may still be slightly imperfect, but Christ said we can be sure that the above things are things only 'false' prophets do. This is not rocket science. But we only see what we are willing to see. <br /><br />Have you closely studied the words of Christ and know exactly what he preached? And have you compared it with the actions of LDS Prophets? If you have I don't know how you can say they are the same, for they are almost completely opposite in every way, when you watch what they 'do' not what they may 'say'. <br /><br />From what I see, I don't believe any of the LDS prophets have believed in even 1 of the 10 commandments or kept any of Christ's other commandments.<br /><br />And I believe there is a big difference between someone quoting Christ VS. someone's imagined spiritual revelation that could have come from any source, true or false. <br /><br />If what Christ supposedly said is not true or accurate, then we are left with nothing & it would be impossible for anyone to know truth from error and everyone would be left to just follow their own or other's inspiration, sometimes right, sometimes wrong. <br /><br />It is only Christ's few exact words that keep us on a straight path and not deceived by false revelation or false prophets that can sound, look & feel so good to us. <br /><br />We are to learn the words of Christ from the writings of the 4 Gospels in the New Testament, not from the Holy Ghost. For we can't even be sure our inspiration if 'from' the Holy Ghost unless we 1st have Christ's words to compare with. <br /><br />And 'inspired church leaders' would again be teaching the same things Christ did, not something new. So again, we only need Christ, He is our only foundation. The Spirit or true prophets are just an added bonus if we happen to have them. BKnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-10867212984341201272015-04-04T12:47:02.781-07:002015-04-04T12:47:02.781-07:00"I suppose the Church would be perfect only i..."I suppose the Church would be perfect only if it were run by perfect beings. God is perfect.."<br /><br />Hey, wait a minute, I thought Jesus was the "head of the church" leading us through "direct revelation"?.. Is this an admission that we really don't have any true revelation today, but only the "still small voice" that EACH of us have within us(which can so easily be mistaken with our own desires)?..<br /><br />Hmmm...<br /><br />Soo it's just a simple matter of well intentioned men making simple(perfectly human)mistakes, a perfectly natural, human tendency so easy to do. We should all just forgive and forget, overlooking our troubling past (nothing like that could ever happen today) and move on with an even greater confidence in our modern(living) prophets.<br /><br /><br />"...there have been times when members or leaders in the Church have simply made mistakes. There may have been things said or done that were not in harmony with our values, principles, or doctrine."<br /><br /><br />(Like blood atonement, oaths of revenge, polygamy, blacks and priesthood, and the tendency of nearly all men to abuse any position of spiritual stewardship over their fellow members by exercising priesthood "authority" to manipulate people whom have entrusted them with their spiritual growth. Only to burden said membership by wasting the days of their probation, stumbling through the endless, revolving (LDS) cycle of Christ's (correlated) preparatory doctrine.<br /><br />See, all truly is well in Zion!<br />We are truly must be God's favorite people.<br /><br /><br />Just Plain Borednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-2032253340551678622015-04-04T10:42:02.490-07:002015-04-04T10:42:02.490-07:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Friar Tucknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-72439793515370631972015-04-04T09:53:50.209-07:002015-04-04T09:53:50.209-07:00Don't pay any attention to my earlier posts. I...Don't pay any attention to my earlier posts. I forgot to take my meds and escaped from my mom's basement. I feel better now, and my mom let me use her computer one last time to write this note.LDS robotnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-42361579278102032082015-04-04T07:40:15.675-07:002015-04-04T07:40:15.675-07:00BK,
I hope nothing I wrote led you to think I bel...BK,<br /><br />I hope nothing I wrote led you to think I believe "that Church leader's words in Conference or elsewhere, are always inspired". Disagreements among Church leaders are to be expected, given that they are fallible mortals as we all are. I don't agree with you that such disagreements (or contradictions, as you call them) are "often" in comparison with things where they agree, and I am not aware of any Church leaders contradicting Christ as you claimed. I do give our Church leaders the presumption of inspiration in what they say and write since I have agreed to sustain them in their callings. But in the fairly rare occasions when I disagree with something they say, if it is something of significance, I pray for the guidance of the Spirit to help me know whether it is them or me who is right. Elder Uchtdorf, in the October 2013 Saturday session of General Conference, pointed out that "...there have been times when members or leaders in the Church have simply made mistakes. There may have been things said or done that were not in harmony with our values, principles, or doctrine.<br /><br />"I suppose the Church would be perfect only if it were run by perfect beings. God is perfect, and His doctrine is pure. But He works through us—His imperfect children—and imperfect people make mistakes."<br /><br />Regarding guidance by the Spirit, you wrote, "Christ did not say to 'follow the Spirit' or 'follow the prophet', men did". Well, yes, men (and women) do say we should follow the spirit and that we should follow the prophet. In fact everything we know about the Gospel and Christ and God has come through people other than those things we are taught through the Spirit. And, since Christ himself left no writings, even all the words of Christ come from writings of men. If you believe the writings of men that we call the scriptures, then you should believe that the Spirit, the Holy Ghost, will guide us to do right and will help us know the truth of all things. If you believe that the apostle John correctly gives us words he heard Jesus speak, then you will believe that Jesus said, "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." <br /><br />So yes, as you said, "Christ is our only safe & sure guide." But the Holy Ghost will lead us to know what His words are and our, in my opinion mostly inspired Church leaders, will also teach the things Christ would have us know.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00448728584336207199noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-45807046058796903972015-04-03T23:32:02.743-07:002015-04-03T23:32:02.743-07:00DANGER,DANGER! just follow the prophet.
Don't...DANGER,DANGER! just follow the prophet.<br /><br />Don't forget to check out the one on TP, I think he had a little too much free time back then.<br />LDS robotnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-45689349568092890012015-04-03T02:14:36.833-07:002015-04-03T02:14:36.833-07:00Anyone interested in finding the collection of pos...Anyone interested in finding the collection of posts I wrote on food storage, as referenced in my reply to John Cannon above, can find them here, beginning with two of my classic screeds about what's happening to our toilet paper:<br /><br />http://www.efoodsdirect.com/blog/author/rwaterman/Alan Rock Watermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-24401377585865282232015-04-03T02:11:31.604-07:002015-04-03T02:11:31.604-07:00CORRECTION:
The response above was intended for Jo...CORRECTION:<br />The response above was intended for John F. Cannon, not John Carson.<br /><br />I can't help calling my own grandchildren by each other's names, calling Levi Nate and Nate Levi; Often I think Taryn's name is Amy. How then can I be expected to remember the proper names of anyone else around here?Alan Rock Watermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-10256850154517839312015-04-02T23:02:19.489-07:002015-04-02T23:02:19.489-07:00John Carson,
I suppose the reason you were surpris...John Carson,<br />I suppose the reason you were surprised to see me quote those words as coming from Dallin Oaks is because I didn't.<br /><br />Those are my words you have me attributing to Dallin Oaks, not his. His quotation is found below my words, in a separate paragraph which I indented and contained within quotation marks. I'm frankly surprised you confused my words with his. I think it's pretty clear where my words ended and his begins.<br /><br />You further infer that I disagreed with what Randall Bennett taught regarding Church leaders encouraging members <br />to have an adequate supply of food storage. Not so. I'm a well known food storage advocate, having contributed bimonthly articles on the topic for over two years on a website sponsored by EfoodsDirect.com. It would be quite out of character for me to be dismissive of Elder Bennett or any other Church leader for supporting the very aims I advocate for. <br /> <br />I was critical only of Elder Bennett's assertion that the Lord has given his personal promise that the prophet will never lead the church astray, an assertion that is palpably, provably untrue.<br /><br />From your words I perceive that you think I reject everything taught by the leaders as uninspired. Again, not so. My personal belief is that many leaders have spoken many things that are both inspired and true. When leaders of the Church speak as moved upon by the Holy Ghost, their words are as valid as yours or mine whenever we are similarly inspired by the spirit. <br /><br /> My concern, John, is when they teach things that are not true, and not inspired. Instead of blindly accepting the opinions of men like Oaks and Bennett when they speak out of turn, we would do better to recognize the counsel of Elders Lee and McConkie (who I also quoted in my post) that not everything written or spoken by a general authority is necessarily inspired.<br /> <br />You yourself seem to agree that Elder Bennett's statement was not the gospel truth. You also maintain it is not the fault of the leaders when members hang on their every word as though everything that comes out of their mouths was obtained through direct revelation. <br /><br />Then whose fault is it? Who has been teaching the people that the only path to salvation is in following their teachings without fail? My own children's generation was taught every Sunday that if they only follow the prophet they will not go astray. They are not regularly taught that any other effort is required, such as seeking confirmation from the spirit that the words the prophet and others teach them is true.<br /><br /> If you can't recognize that "follow the prophet" has become the pre-eminent teaching of the Church in the 21st century, then you haven't been paying attention. I need only refer you to my recent post "Not Quite The Same" to prove that the leaders are doing their best to convince the saints that when they speak, it is to be assumed their words are the same as if God himself were disseminating his will. We deserve to resist that false teaching before it proves our downfall. Alan Rock Watermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-88383266672336224292015-04-02T20:20:40.929-07:002015-04-02T20:20:40.929-07:00Dear Rock,
Thank you for all your writing. You r...Dear Rock,<br /><br />Thank you for all your writing. You really take the time to give well thought out replies to people. I watch for your blogs every week hoping to see a new one. I go to church because I have made a commitment never to leave it. I do feel like it is way too structured in certain ways. It doesn't seem right. I try to speak my mind whenever possible. I too have felt "shunned" but I don't care. I will not stop going. Hang in there and thanks for writing about how I feel sometimes!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08956768345958262398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-3188132064447732082015-04-02T15:29:15.594-07:002015-04-02T15:29:15.594-07:00John,
The problem is, Christ did not say to '...John, <br /><br />The problem is, Christ did not say to 'follow the Spirit' or 'follow the prophet', men did. Christ said follow 'Him'. <br /><br />Only when our inspiration or the inspiration or words of others (like church leaders) exactly 'match' Christ's words, will we know that revelation or teaching is true. <br /><br />To think that Church leader's words in Conference or elsewhere, are always inspired, is to believe that God is very fickle & that truth keeps changing, from prophet to prophet & person to person, for even the Leaders of the Church often contradict each other, as well as Christ. <br /><br />Christ is our only safe & sure guide. BKnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-59594970739081568322015-04-02T14:06:17.808-07:002015-04-02T14:06:17.808-07:00But Rock, If what we've been taught is true, t...<br /><br />But Rock, If what we've been taught is true, that this is the "one true church" and it is lead by the Lord himself, then why does it keep making poor decisions?.. Why does the Lord need a PR or marketing department. Why does the Lord need to do opinion polling before he alters his policies?..<br /><br />You MUST be mistaken, clearly this is all part of the Lord's plan. Haven't you heard the prophecy about the church rolling forth to fill the earth. The numbers have to be wrong, It is simply not conceivable that our growth could be stagnating.<br /><br />Do you not know that the Lord is hastening the work, did you not get that memo?<br /><br /><br />In any case, my paradigm simply will not allow me to accept that what you are suggesting might be true. <br /><br />These are not facts they are the cunning lies of the devil, and you Brother, have been deceived.<br /><br /> <br />You are a suppressive personality, Why don't you stop committing suppressive acts and take down your blog?.. We will now exercise our unrighteous control by fear, through intimidation, to cut you off from everyone that you thought were your true friends. Don't you know We hold the "keys" to your eternal salvation, We are in complete control Muhhahaa!<br /><br />...But we love you Brother, and will pray for you to return!<br /><br /><br /><br />A (very) bored robotnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-62682263089359377922015-04-02T11:35:50.853-07:002015-04-02T11:35:50.853-07:00Rock,
I was surprised to see you quote Dallin Oak...Rock,<br /><br />I was surprised to see you quote Dallin Oaks as one who teaches we should "assume without question that everything spoken at conference or printed in a Church publication comes to us as if directly from the mind of God". So I looked up the source you provided and here is the quote in context, "Some wonder how members of the Church accept a modern prophet’s teachings to guide their personal lives, something that is unusual in most religious traditions. Our answer to the charge that Latter-day Saints follow their leaders out of 'blind obedience' is this same personal revelation. We respect our leaders and presume inspiration in their leadership of the Church and in their teachings. But we are all privileged and encouraged to confirm their teachings by prayerfully seeking and receiving revelatory confirmation directly from God." So we see that what Elder Oaks actually teaches is, out of respect to our leaders, we presume they are inspired, but that we are encouraged to prayerfully seek confirmation from God that what our leaders teach is indeed inspired of Him. So the presumption of inspiration is subject to revision depending on whether confirmation by the Spirit is received. This seems quite different from the impression given from your quotation of his words taken out of their context.<br /><br />I also read the article from which you took the Randall K. Bennett quotation. In this article Elder Randall makes it abundantly clear that they were led by the Spirit to follow the counsel of the Brethren regarding self-reliance in general and food storage in particular. Once again you pluck particular words out of context to make it appear Elder Randall is advocating something he is not. He gave reasons why he and his wife have been blessed by following the counsel of the prophet, and these reasons include that the prophet's counsel was confirmed to them by the Spirit.<br /><br />I happen to agree with you that Elder Randall's statement that "we have the Lord’s personal promise that the prophets will never lead us astray" is inaccurate. What we have is (and Elder Randall cited references) modern prophets' statements to the effect that the Lord will never allow the prophet to lead the church astray. So, while Elder Randall misspoke on this one item, I believe it was ungenerous of you to "conclude that Elder Randall K. Bennett is full of crap up to his eyeballs."<br /><br />You and others such as Denver Snuffer who continue to insist that the current church leadership demands uncritical obedience to everything they say, are simply wrong. You have supported this position by taking church leaders' statements out of context and by quoting Denver Snuffer's unsupported assertion from his Only One Doctrine Left blog. I sent an E-mail to Denver about this assertion of his and asked for references to support it. He responded saying he could give quotes from General Conference talks, presumably in support of his "one doctrine left" claim, but he has yet to supply any such quotes or any other documentation. I don't doubt that there are misguided members of the church, including some leaders, who believe what Denver claims, but the assertion that Church doctrine is that we follow a man we call a prophet over following Christ is simply ridiculous and untrue.<br /><br />John F. CannonJohnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00448728584336207199noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-40632897607801184372015-04-02T09:38:31.234-07:002015-04-02T09:38:31.234-07:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-82167275772214436652015-04-02T09:31:49.966-07:002015-04-02T09:31:49.966-07:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com