tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post7495994226456393231..comments2024-03-13T12:52:19.391-07:00Comments on Pure Mormonism: How To Become An Apostate In One AfternoonAlan Rock Watermanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comBlogger370125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-68408510116674963332018-07-05T17:14:05.355-07:002018-07-05T17:14:05.355-07:00So...as I see it thisnis just a page of gathering ...So...as I see it thisnis just a page of gathering for all those who feel like they have been wronged by someone and because of that should stop following the truth they have hitherto found.<br />Risking your salvation and then patting each other on the back for it? <br />Real truth doesn't seek for applause and affirmation because it doesn't need it. The church is true, whether you like it or not. Cut the thread that binds you to the prophet and start sinking.Nimrodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10322863730218181832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-90322790510808023302018-06-27T17:31:12.672-07:002018-06-27T17:31:12.672-07:00To B.K
Difference with Joseph and the other "...To B.K<br />Difference with Joseph and the other "prophets" leaders is very simple? Josephs revelations are all documented and in canon, we all use. Joseph is quoted as saying, HE is ONLY a prophet when he is acting in his role as a prophet, not till then..In plain English when he receives a command or revelation, THEN and ONLY THEN is HE a Prophet of the Lord. At all other times he is simply a husband and father to his family.<br />Are we not taught that a person's standing makes NO relevance to the Lord nor to Christ? Are we not to rely upon Christ? Doesn't John 14/26 mean anything to people? or D+C 6/22-24..... Verily, verily, I say unto you, if you desire a further witness, cast your mind upon the night that you cried unto me in your heart, that you might know concerning the truth of these things...Did I not speak peace to your mind concerning the matter? What greater witness can you have than from God?..<br />And now, behold, you have received a witness; for if I have told you things which no man knoweth have you not received a witness?<br />God does NOT change nor his words and if words are changed then it is not from the Lord UNLESS revelation is given to lay aside a previous one....example...>>><br /><br />D+C 124/31 + 49-50----------->But I command you, all ye my saints, to build a house unto me; and I grant unto you a sufficient time to build a house unto me; and during this time your baptisms shall be acceptable unto me.----49 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that when I give a commandment to any of the sons of men to do a work unto my name, and those sons of men go with all their might and with all they have to perform that work, and cease not their diligence, and their enemies come upon them and hinder them from performing that work, behold, it behooveth me to require that work no more at the hands of those sons of men, but to accept of their offerings... And the iniquity and transgression of my holy laws and commandments I will visit upon the heads of those who hindered my work, unto the third and fourth generation, so long as they repent not, and hate me, saith the Lord God.<br /><br />Why post this? example is the Lord has taken care of things in advance.....NOT something that will come about years after and said this is what the "prophet" said back then to me alone but in advance so the people know what to look for and expect?<br /><br />To all those that read this , here is a GEM? --->And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things...And if you do not have this faith then read and ponder the scriptures as this will engage him to you, if you desire it?<br /><br />There is so much here but I am content to reply to B.K in love and peace in Christ.mormons sonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14717928160313285185noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-77457078727098226562016-10-03T01:47:14.811-07:002016-10-03T01:47:14.811-07:00FRC1952,
You appear to have a different definitio...FRC1952, <br />You appear to have a different definition of "anti-Mormon" than I do, Randy. I am a devout believer in the gospel as restored through Joseph Smith, I embrace the Book of Mormon as literally true, and I revere Joseph Smith as a prophet. How does any of that make me anti-Mormon? <br /><br />You accuse me of lying without referring to any examples. If you will point out where I have been mistaken, I will happily make the corrections. Please advise. Alan Rock Watermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-24282355368379887162016-10-02T09:37:36.195-07:002016-10-02T09:37:36.195-07:00It seems that useless opinion i.e. testimony is va...It seems that useless opinion i.e. testimony is valid if you agree with it. How people like I get to this site is because it does not have the basis honesty to label itself truthfully as an antimormon site. It's plainly a case of the pot calling the kettle black when y'all say that the Prophet is dishonesty when you lie yourselves. Cut out the hypocrisy and the lies and you case would seem more likely to have some validity.FRC1952https://www.blogger.com/profile/06905984786886724417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-60825266782284401762015-12-02T17:50:04.400-08:002015-12-02T17:50:04.400-08:00thanks Ashley. very well written. thanks Ashley. very well written. wade2029@gmail.comhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12112616186844666822noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-32517875350089465092015-12-02T17:44:52.525-08:002015-12-02T17:44:52.525-08:00amen Jared. thanks for your testimony. lots of sed...amen Jared. thanks for your testimony. lots of seductive reasoning in cyber land. To answer Ryan, nowadays this stuff pretty much finds you! It was in my google now feed as I was writing a paper on the same sex marriage policy change in the church. Nice to hear your faith Jared. Hang in there. :)wade2029@gmail.comhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12112616186844666822noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-83922480459189064872015-11-09T16:05:48.395-08:002015-11-09T16:05:48.395-08:00Thank you for posting this for a wider audience. ...Thank you for posting this for a wider audience. As one of the newly minted/declared Apostates I thought I was losing my mind - this total infallibility wasn't taught when I was a kid (during Spencer Kimball's Presidency but was surely coming under Ezra Taft Benson's, someone a family member prayed would be taken home before he reached the Presidency). To see my "apostasy" attached to children who will only be allowed to join the Church after they turn 18, renounce their parent(s), and seek the approval of those in Salt Lake shocked and appalled me. This post, Adrian's work, and the comments actually help to revive my faith. Again, thank you. a Talmagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03436860727318555450noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-61868291471364851002015-08-16T22:43:56.724-07:002015-08-16T22:43:56.724-07:00I've only read the posting and a few comments....I've only read the posting and a few comments. To address the comment after someone posted their testimony. There is no caveat that this site is restricted to apostates. I consider it like the apocrypha, there are truths mixed with errors. If a person of faith is not welcome to sift for truth then the poster is obligated to announce so in an unmistakable manner. If I understand correctly three types of apostate post here. Two of them I gave a respect for.They both became disaffected with the Church, one left the Church the other fought the Church from the inside knowing that ther would be a court called. Both of these types stood up for what they came to believe. I strongly disagree with their conclusions, but as a Texan, I must respect one who fights a battle that can't be won. The third type is the apostate who stays a member yet hides their true feelings. Christ himself addressed this kind of person in <br />Matthew 23:27-28<br />27) Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.<br />28) Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.<br />Christ also seems to show some regard for the first two types.<br />Revelation 3:15-16<br />15) I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.<br />16) So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew thee out of my mouth.<br />I do not understand all the nuances of these scriptures, but it seems that Christ has some regard for those who leave his fold to oppose openly. <br />A testimony is not an opinion. It is a statement of truths gleaned from trying to live the Gospel of Jesus Christ. When the Holy Ghost confirms the loving hand of God in your life you can confidently tell the truth of the effects of His influence with the backing of the Holy Ghost. This is not a fall back position. We have the right and responsibility to call upon the Holy Ghost to add his testimony to ours. <br />Just so no-one thinks that I have not had hard times with the Church I was disfellowshipped on my 22nd birthday. It was over 26 years before I was refellowshipped. FRC1952https://www.blogger.com/profile/06905984786886724417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-87391163536772670422015-06-23T12:53:26.504-07:002015-06-23T12:53:26.504-07:00Not sure what it is you're trying to say there...Not sure what it is you're trying to say there, Gilberto, but you seem to be making my case.<br /><br />Still waiting on those scripture citations to back up your original comments.Alan Rock Watermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-10380768568949478432015-06-23T11:51:39.495-07:002015-06-23T11:51:39.495-07:00It ia clear that you do not understand. How the ho...It ia clear that you do not understand. How the holyghost works by saying that prayer doesn not count well that"s precisely what. God told joseph in the grove that peoe. Drove near with their lips but denied the power of God. People counsel themselves. Trust the flesh and their minds more that their hearhs where the spirit dwells how sad.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00985400058384146453noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-71760936726637074572015-06-23T11:42:31.203-07:002015-06-23T11:42:31.203-07:00Gilberto,
I see several assumption in your commen...Gilberto, <br />I see several assumption in your comment above that do not appear to be upheld by the word of God.<br /><br />For instance, Your claim that the leaders of the Church have authority and stewardship over us. Can you show me in the scriptures where God gave them authority and stewardship over anyone? I cannot even find any place in any revelation where God gave such stewardship to Joseph Smith.<br /><br />"It is our duty to follow and do as they instruct." Again, where did God tell us that is our duty? When asked by a visitor to Nauvoo how Joseph Smith was able to govern the saints, he specifically denied that was his role. "I teach them correct principles," he said, "and they govern themselves."<br /><br />And if our leaders err, you assert it is not our fault, that we must follow them anyway? Again, a scriptural citation for that assertion would be helpful.<br /><br />Your position is that members of the Lord's church are mere soldiers in an army whose duty is to obey their superiors, even when they err. Yet God does not excuse soldiers when they act contrary to His word, does he? <br /><br />"This is the law that I gave unto mine ancients, that they should not go out unto battle against any nation, kindred, tongue, or people, save I, the Lord, commanded them." (D&C 98:33) You'll notice it's the Lord speaking there, and you'll notice he says UNLESS I THE LORD COMMAND THEM. He doesn't say "unless one's commanding officer or political leader commands them."<br /><br />You say, "I see you claiming inspiration from God but at the same time fighting against those called to do GOD'S work." Well, I don't think I claim that much inspiration from God, but I would appreciate you pointing to where I am fighting against those called to do God's work. Indeed, I do all I can to assist those doing God's word. How would you define "fighting against"?<br /><br />You tell us, "I can follow the leaders in charge all day long." Yes, you can. And God will allow you the free agency to do so. He will not stand between you and your folly.<br /><br />You ask, "can you tell me about the false spirits that God was supposed to send to earth to confuse ?"<br /><br />I think you may be intimately familiar with those spirits, Gilberto. <br /><br />Alan Rock Watermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-45262215779142503192015-06-23T10:50:41.165-07:002015-06-23T10:50:41.165-07:00I can follow the leaders incharge all they long. ....I can follow the leaders incharge all they long. .do they have inperfections? Yes they are humans of flesh and bone just like us , do they have authority. And stewardship over the rest of us?yes they also have responsabolities before the lord if they get it wrong. In some. areas as all of you claim(from your own perspective. Un derstanding and knowledge) well let them but remember our duty is to follow and do as they i struct if they err weel then is not our fault is their and we are nod acountable before God for that they are,just as the soldiers in the armies God will demand from those in authority above them no directly from the soldiers . the soldiers just a ct in obedience so why you all seem to be assuming God's duty and or trying to do something hat you have not authority or power over?isee you claimi g i spiration from aGod but at the same time fighting against those called to do GOD'S work what can you tell me about the false spirits that God was suppose to se d to earth to co fuse ? And how about those spirits casted out from heaven ? I don"t see you to be aware of them . who are these under their in fluence? Think about it because richness. Is is surely very important when it comes to be called from God so compare your li es and actions with those of people in charged and decide.i mean the General authorities lives. And yours.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00985400058384146453noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-36819860078036097392015-05-29T23:55:17.596-07:002015-05-29T23:55:17.596-07:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09735776769385311772noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-13322464015211789752015-05-16T07:05:49.049-07:002015-05-16T07:05:49.049-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09735776769385311772noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-64712922684843728882015-04-28T17:46:43.867-07:002015-04-28T17:46:43.867-07:00That post was getting way too long, so I broke it ...That post was getting way too long, so I broke it up. There's something else I want you to know about me. I already told you that I'm a bit of a bookworm; well, my favorite books are books I'm "not supposed to" read. I love it every time the library celebrates or has a display of formerly banned books; I immediately add them to my reading list. The first time my "Spidey senses" started tingling was shortly after joining the church, when we were handed the "Teachings of the Presidents: Brigham Young" book. I thought it was way cool that all those teachings were drawn straight from his Journal of Discourses and other sources. I thought one comment was weird, though. I don't remember the exact wording, but it said something about how that book (TotP book) was sufficient, and that it was not necessary (or they might have even said "not encouraged") to read all the original sources. Needless to say, I immediately made a mental note to acquire all those original sources and read them. I still haven't done that yet, but I am still collecting all the original sources footnoted in all the TotP books. I'm excited to read them, and I imagine I'll find more than a few surprises in there. ;-)Ryanhttp://www.ryanjanus.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-81636078894112046822015-04-28T17:39:00.054-07:002015-04-28T17:39:00.054-07:00Hi, Rock - Ryan again. This is not a comment about...Hi, Rock - Ryan again. This is not a comment about this post in particular, but as I read these posts and comments, I'm amassing an increasing list of materials to read. Do you have anything resembling a "top 10" list of eye-opening, mind-bending LDS books? They can be on any subject: tithing, polygamy, false prophets, whatever. <br /><br />I'm a bit of a bookworm. I was also a "hard sell," going through 3.5 pairs of missionaries and hearing the discussions 2.5 times before I finally took the plunge. In the process, I read lots of material on the church. This was mostly anti-mormon material, usually supplied by my dad, who remains a hater to this day though he's never cracked open a BoM (side note: my dad was and remains my hero, one of the coolest, smartest people I know, his attitudes towards my beliefs notwithstanding). I'd love more, so where's a good place for me to start? And it's totally cool to plug your own stuff, BTW - I'll probably read that, too! If it's not something you want to make a full-blown post about, you could just email me your recommended reading list. Click on my name to head to my website, which is badly out-of-date, but still has my current email address. I'd be extremely grateful.<br /><br />For what it's worth, I may never get to where I believe we're being led by unrighteous leaders. I'm certainly not there yet. But who knows? I may. I believe I was taught the church the right way from the beginning: agency always comes first, even when we disagree with our leaders. This is what I've been taught, and in my experience, this is what all my bishops and branch presidents have practiced. But I've also heard some jaw-dropping stories of unrighteous leaders, too. It may comfort you to know that the following conversation actually took place between myself and missionary team #1 at a discussion in Vienna, Austria: (or at least an approximation of this conversation; it was almost 20 years ago, after all):<br /><br />Me: "So I just pray about something to know if it's true?"<br />Missionary: "Not just something; pray about ANYTHING."<br />Me: "Does that include the president of the church?"<br />Missionary: "Absolutely. Don't simply take his word on blind faith. Pray and ponder about what he says to confirm its truthfulness."<br />Me: "And what if I pray about something and receive inspiration that it's not true? Am I then not obligated to follow it?"<br />Missionary: "Not only are you not obligated to follow it, I'd think that you WOULD be obligated to NOT follow it."<br /><br />Smart kids, those missionaries. :-)Ryan Janushttp://www.ryanjanus.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-37713084566312237992015-04-18T12:40:08.270-07:002015-04-18T12:40:08.270-07:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06066294653425195089noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-63515969958649613792015-03-20T01:26:13.212-07:002015-03-20T01:26:13.212-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16143835667272147984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-32873423269496110612015-01-12T00:09:14.526-08:002015-01-12T00:09:14.526-08:00So how exactly this is supposed to work in a court...So how exactly this is supposed to work in a court that is improperly set in the first place, is anybody's guess. But it's clear that in a stake high council where the dispute is between two members of the congregation, half the council is to advocate for the plaintiff, and half for the defendant. Since the stake high council has usurped the duty of the (now nonexistent) Elder's Council, I would think that at the very least six members would be required to advocate very strongly on the side of the accused.<br /><br />If this confuses you, you're not alone. But you'll understand better how it is supposed to work if you read the entire piece at the link to LDS Anarchist. He's done the homework.Alan Rock Watermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-586629579473457222015-01-12T00:06:45.280-08:002015-01-12T00:06:45.280-08:00Thomas,
The best explication I know of is provided...Thomas,<br />The best explication I know of is provided by LDS Anarchist at this site:<br /><br />https://ldsanarchy.wordpress.com/2013/09/04/the-doctrine-against-dissent/<br /><br />After quoting D&C 102:17, which reads:<br /><br />"Those councilors who draw even numbers, that is, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, and 12, are the individuals who are to stand up in behalf of the accused, and prevent insult and injustice."<br /><br />I recommend you read the entire piece, because what I am about to quote from it below is a response to Dallin Oak's improper explanation of how the courts work today. You'll want to keep in mind that the first problem is that the courts today are improperly set, because these actions are SUPPOSED to go before an Elder's Council. We don't have those anymore, so they are conducted improperly by the stake high council, which was intended to adjudicate disputes between members, not try a member for apostasy. <br /><br />Anyway, here's that excerpt:<br /><br /> "Now, here is where brother Dallin gets it wrong (and shame on him!, since he’s supposed to be a lawyer). The expression “to stand up in behalf of the accused” means “to stand up as an advocate of the accused.”<br /><br /> BEHALF, n. behaf. [See Behoof.]<br /><br /> 1. Favor; advantage; convenience, profit; support, defense, vindication. The advocate pleads in behalf of the prisoner. The patriot suffers in behalf of his country.<br /> 2. Part; side; noting substitution, or the act of taking the part of another; as, the agent appeared in behalf of his constituents, and entered a claim.<br /><br /> AD’VOCATE, n. [L. advocatus, from advoco, to call for, to plead for; of ad and voco, to call. See Vocal.]<br /><br /> 1. Advocate, in its primary sense, signifies, one who pleads the cause of another in a court of civil law. Hence,<br /> 2. One who pleads the cause of another before any tribunal or judicial court, as a barrister in the English courts. We say, a man is a learned lawyer and an able advocate.<br /> 3. One who defends, vindicates, or espouses a cause, by argument; one who is friendly to; as, an advocate for peace, or for the oppressed.<br /><br /> AD’VOCATE, v.t. To plead in favor of; to defend by argument, before a tribunal; to support or vindicate.<br /><br />"All of that is from Webster’s 1828 Dictionary, showing that this is the very meaning of the phrase, contrary to what brother Dallin would have us believe.<br /><br />"The reason why brother Dallin and the other church leaders feel the need to wrest this scripture into saying something it isn’t saying is because they have transfigured the high council into something it was never intended to be: a church court dealing with transgression and trials for church membership. So, they cannot conceive of a righteous man advocating the cause of someone who could be an unrepentant sinner, like the lawyers do. (Jesus is our advocate with the Father only if we are penitent, for the impenitent do not have Him as their advocate.) The thought of advocating impenitence, then, is understandably repulsive to them, so they simply interpret the scripture another way, to make it work according to their procedure. But the very words themselves do not fit.<br /><br />"High councilors could advocate the cause of the accused because these were not meant to be matters dealing with transgression, but merely “important difficulties.” In other words, disputes over this and that private matter. In such cases, the accused may be right, or may be wrong. The high councilors who were chosen by lot to speak, could put themselves in the place of the accused, for they weren’t attempting to excuse sin, but to show a private matter from the perspective of the accused."<br /><br />(End of quoted section)<br /><br />Alan Rock Watermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-52283406198556129672015-01-11T23:40:08.754-08:002015-01-11T23:40:08.754-08:00Anonymous,
I deleted your post, but not because I ...Anonymous,<br />I deleted your post, but not because I found it offensive. I deleted it because you failed to provide a username, per the posted rules.Alan Rock Watermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-33783626491973007522015-01-11T13:20:07.472-08:002015-01-11T13:20:07.472-08:00Rock,
I read in your book that six are to be selec...Rock,<br />I read in your book that six are to be selected to take your side, and six are to take the side of “the Church”. I was taught this same thing when I was a child (I’m now 49) but I have heard very little about the details or anything since then. <br /><br />Without the corruption in the process, how is it “supposed to work” (setting the CHI aside) with the six high council members selected to take your side? Are they supposed to work with you and build a defense and/or be willing to speak on your behalf? Or are they (under the correct process) there only to prevent "insult and injury"* to you? (*Referencing Adrian’s comments above). As a side note (and maybe trivial and not really looking for an answer), I’m curious how they select the six for each case. If they always assign the same six, or cast lots, or rotate, or base it on seniority.Thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15832701313385142254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-25135032132621571112015-01-11T09:52:20.390-08:002015-01-11T09:52:20.390-08:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-52972488905111428642015-01-10T10:10:28.862-08:002015-01-10T10:10:28.862-08:00Thomas,
The corruption in the process today is ve...Thomas, <br />The corruption in the process today is very similar to that in the civil courts. A public defender today rarely defends his client. He is furnished simply to make sure an innocent client's rights are not violated as he is being railroaded to jail. <br /><br />Likewise, it's a formality in the Church courts to provide the impression the accused is being given a fair shake, when in reality he too is being railroaded.<br /><br />These members of the high council are accustomed to following the instructions of the stake president under whom they serve. They come into a situation knowing nothing about it other than the accused must be guilty or the SP wouldn't have dragged them here to do the job.<br /><br />If the SP wants a guy ex'd, (or is given orders from above to get a guy ex'ed), the guy is gonna get ex'ed. <br /><br />In my book I tell the reader "you're not going to win this thing anyway." But that's not why you show up for your court. You are there to bear testimony of Christ, and be a witness against those who would unjustly commit a vile deed while claiming to act in the name of God.<br /><br />I feel it's important to "stand in the gap," the way Adrian did at his hearing. Guys like him, and Bret Corbridge and Will Carter and Angel Cicero and countless others are heroes in my book.Alan Rock Watermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-32473155955172448632015-01-09T17:50:56.165-08:002015-01-09T17:50:56.165-08:00Thank you Adrian for responding. I'm disappoin...Thank you Adrian for responding. I'm disappointed to hear they are not there to defend you. I have trouble reconciling how they are there to prevent insult and injury to while at the same time join the rest of the council in proving the church’s case against you. I think I would feel incredibly intimidated in that situation. I imagine you cannot have any witnesses testify in your behalf?Thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15832701313385142254noreply@blogger.com