tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post6839056448447996919..comments2024-03-26T21:27:42.278-07:00Comments on Pure Mormonism: Infallible Authority, Chapter SixteenAlan Rock Watermanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-11557210103984143182013-06-05T13:05:53.154-07:002013-06-05T13:05:53.154-07:00Rock: "Most of us within the church have been...<i>Rock: "Most of us within the church have been traveling a path that has diverted quite a bit from the true religion."</i> <br><br>Wow. I can't believe that, after 35 years of "faithful" activity, I must confess that this is true for me, too! I, too, am in need of "repenting for the blind idolatry I once participated in."<br><br>Thank you for helping me see the light. That being said, you have made covenant to refrain from "speaking evil of the Lord's anointed". I adjure you to keep your covenant, no matter how well-intentioned or "correct" your criticisms of the Brethren may be. If you do not have <i>proof</i> of iniquity (adultery, stealing, bearing false witness, etc.), then you ought to hold your peace. <br><br>Do the modern Brethren "seek" their callings? (Do they "jostle" for preeminent position, as did James and John?) Are they "free" to refuse the call when it comes? (Think of Jonah.) Do they "control" revelation from God? (We may possess the "keys", but can any of us tell <i>God</i> what to do?)<br><br>I think you ought to be more compassionate and forgiving of those "pressed" into service. By and large, I'm sure the Brethren are doing their best (even if, sometimes, they are doing it wrong).Good Willhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09741814252871576371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-25705370720784875792012-05-04T20:50:06.972-07:002012-05-04T20:50:06.972-07:00Sorry for the typos above. Writing from my mobile ...Sorry for the typos above. Writing from my mobile phone!againsttheclocknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-10122124208738288552012-05-04T20:01:42.415-07:002012-05-04T20:01:42.415-07:00Anonymous @8:22am,thank u. U nailed what i have di...Anonymous @8:22am,<br><br>thank u. U nailed what i have discovered in my past, and my subsequent beginnings og enlightment. I was a kid bullied greatly, coming from another nation to australia, couldnt defend myself without the gift of the gab, nor or physical toughness. Eventually i had no choice but to learn to fight back hard after spending a lot of time training in kickboxing etc ad nauseam. Got into fights constantly as i was determined to take no more. BUT you can't imagine the shock it was to my system to see that i actually had hurt someone, a brother, son of my heavenly father!! I used to end up weeping with them, for them, sometimes daily for months, ashamed and sought to go back to my days when i couldnt fight back. As this realisation came, so did blessedly, the gospel of jesus into my life through the book of mormon. 15 years later i still cannot get over the feelings of the spirit i had when i prayed about the book of mormon, such a joyful exciting time! Then i joined the church and was confused why that feeling did not conyinue therein, and of course blamed it entirely on my inability to convert properly. But even after some years, and having my Enos moment where i truly began to repent finally, the feeling in the church was the same, no Spirit. The teachings seemed so far removed from joseph smith, the gosel was not of import, just a focus on the darn prophet and the rich men who held 'managerial positions'. I was in so many situation where i knew the Spirit just did not exist, and i am grateful for the discernment. Anyway, thank u- i agree so much that to even see your enemies hurt is a disgusting, painful, painful thing. As Jesus, he knows. Thats why he said to pray for them.againsttheclocknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-51517167997776785222012-04-29T08:22:20.191-07:002012-04-29T08:22:20.191-07:00While Mormonism is wonderful (there have been time...While Mormonism is wonderful (there have been times when I have preferred to label myself "Christian", and then I have backed away from all labels, though I still am on the membership rolls)--<br><br>I think sometimes we limit God. <br><br>(not going to get worried about whether I say Heavenly Father or Jesus Christ or even the Holy Ghost)--<br><br>Many humans like to fit God into human boundaries, and it can't be done. Joseph Smith was wonderful, and I even have a testimony that he was a prophet.<br><br>However, God works among all His children. All over the world. Many times we don't even know what He is doing. It's arrogant of people who call themselves Mormons (or other Christians) to assume that God really prefers one particular people over another. We are all His children. I said that already, I know.<br><br>How do we know He isn't working in other nations, quietly, among other people, either to bring them into the LDS church (where they will surely encounter wolves but be introduced to glorious concepts) or to other religions, even non-Christian ones.<br><br>One of the greatest blessings that comes to members of the LDS church in true purity, IF they will take advantage of it, is to go to other parts of the world and meet people of different belief systems. It can be an incredible blessing, if it is greeted with humility.<br><br>If a missionary takes his/her ethnocentricity with him/her and ties himself up in cultural baggage (I know; I know; we've all had bad MPs and APs, etc.), then the blessings are harder to receive. But the fact is that there are some righteous and pure people in the world who undoubtedly have tapped into the knowledge of light and truth, one way or another--<br><br>God hasn't given up on anyone. True, modern LDS have a lot to live up to, and many of us are failing in a big way. Warnings are not being heeded; scriptures are being unread, etc. But God (Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, AND the Holy Ghost) have a master plan that many of us may not even be able to comprehend a tiny portion of, including myself, who is writing this.<br><br>I believe that above all else. God is great, and Jesus Christ has already triumphed. So, I read my Book of Mormon, keep my mouth shut, pray as much as a mortal can--<br><br>and wait on Him.<br><br>Just offering my little thoughts.<br><br>If there is one thing that concerns me, even though I agree with MUCH of what is being written, it is this--<br><br>why do some of us focus so much on the faults of others, even if they are in "so-called" authority or in positions of leadership (THAT word is complicated and not quite "the thing")--<br><br>Yes, it's quite easy to see that things aren't as they should be. But after it's been said, why say it again? The fact is that, if these people lead others astray, they will have to answer for it. And I won't want to see it.<br><br>Have you ever seen an enemy vanquished? It's not as rewarding as some might think. It hurts to see someone who has wounded you (if you plead for Christlike compassion) suffer. It hurts.<br><br>I don't want to witness any of this, but I'm afraid I'll have to witness here and there. I want to keep my own soul as pure as possible, so that I don't have to cause someone else to suffer by witnessing against me.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-72692173745668664322012-03-11T19:53:55.368-07:002012-03-11T19:53:55.368-07:00Jog my memory, Andrew; what quote is that?Jog my memory, Andrew; what quote is that?Alan Rock Watermanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-88318608316803757152012-03-11T18:07:56.041-07:002012-03-11T18:07:56.041-07:00The link to the BY quote is gone. Another website ...The link to the BY quote is gone. Another website had something like that but said it was made-up. Anyone have a real source to the quote?Mr. Andrewhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03780782205720595856noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-48627398619295385252012-01-19T17:44:11.768-08:002012-01-19T17:44:11.768-08:00Once upon a not very long ago, our dear leaders to...Once upon a not very long ago, our dear leaders told us to stop calling ourselves "Mormons", and instead insist on the label "Latter-Day Saints"... and now we have these "I'm a Mormon" ads in buses and youtube videos. <br><br>It's hard to be an apostate these days. You can never tell exactly which teachings you're apostatizing from.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-73333908182109625822012-01-18T17:31:44.030-08:002012-01-18T17:31:44.030-08:00Perhaps it isn't being wicked as much as it is...Perhaps it isn't being wicked as much as it is unintended consequences of good intentions.<br><br>100 billion dollars of assets, give or take, because of skilled business practices. Side effect - unintended emphasis of prosperity gospel....Matthewhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03382259353348066309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-70399985432734344802012-01-17T19:45:09.981-08:002012-01-17T19:45:09.981-08:00Jon,While we can't learn everything about the ...Jon,<br><br>While we can't learn everything about the Gospel in this life, I believe ignorance in large part is chosen, insomuch that the scriptures are clear that we are held accountable and lose our Exaltation for being deceived to support or do evil, even if we do it unknowingly.<br><br>We must study & pray enough to gain a solid understanding about Christ's high laws, so that we aren't deceived to break them, even if Church leaders say we can, as they often do.<br><br>Probably the greatest thing to fear in life is 'being deceived' to support other's evil or commit evil ourselves or fall for the philosophies of men & falsehoods & false prophets, even in the Church. <br><br>There are many falsehoods & evils taught, supported, accepted and even encouraged in the Church, by most all members and leaders, from the top down.<br><br>So we must live righteous enough so that we can have the Holy Spirit as our guide to really be able to question everything & everyone & receive daily personal revelation on any subject we may have a question about & always be able to discern truth from error & right from wrong & devils from saints & true prophets from false prophets, even in and especially in, the Church. <br><br>Only those who are 'deceived' become evil, because they 'unknowingly' do or support evil, while still usually feeling, thinking & looking like they are righteous.TLnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-6660977164165326902012-01-17T18:43:20.221-08:002012-01-17T18:43:20.221-08:00"I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who we..."I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon ball the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw."<br><br>This scripture seems to imply that we will be every where at first, then their will be a gathering for those who refuse to lift their sword to fight their neighbor.<br><br>Dewey has some interesting insights. It's still hard for me to grasp that people are bad. I see them trying hard to do well. But then I see them supporting unjust wars, what then is the definition of blood lust? It is saddening.<br><br>While reading this chapter I mostly thought of, "oh my goodness, how many bad things am I doing?"<br><br>I got Grant Hardy's BoM: A Readers Edition for Christmas, I can finally get through the BoM again, now that it is in readable format. I guess I find out my wicked ways and hopefully change them.<br><br>So what makes a person wicked? I suppose willful rebellion. But I wouldn't think ignorance would, but when presented the truth and still rejecting it does that make them wicked? I don't know, just thinking out loud. I have a hard time thinking of Uchtdorf (sp) as a bad person or Monson, but I also always wonder why they haven't come out staunchly against all these wars. I guess the prophets are those who lift of their voices in warning.Jonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05518762624199557168noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-44927074318902043912012-01-17T08:23:14.574-08:002012-01-17T08:23:14.574-08:00TL said: "There are also many other whoredoms...TL said: "There are also many other whoredoms, wickedness and abominations ..."<br><br>IMO, the biggest whoring the Church has done is selling us out to corporate interests and the government. Of course, this happened long ago when the church was disbanded and the Corporation of the President was formed and membership for us became merely symbolic (there is only ONE sole member of the Church, the President)"<br><br>Yay for us... we have billions and billions in assets: churches, temples, property, hotels, businesses, theme parks, etc. So much money that we don't know what to do with it. A friend of mine who contracts work at the filming site in Goshen (our "new Jerusalem") told me that no expense is being spared to make things authentic. One single prop (like a piece of Roman armor or something) cost them $10k. The ad campaign Steven is talking about drains the church of millions each month. Yes, there is lip service given to how we help the poor around the world, but that is less than 5% of our net income.<br><br>Raise your hand if you would be willing to convert our lush churches and stake centers into places to help the poor. (We'd have to meet at our houses and sup with each other at an actual intimate setting and [gasp] let the Spirit dictate what was being taught, rather than teach from correlated manuals). Or to take the 4-6 billion we're spending on the SLC mall to create infrastructure for Native American reservations (many of which are like third-world countries now). <br><br>Yes, there are practicalities that we'd have to deal with. But when one's heart is filled with love and pure intent, the spirit of creativity flourishes. We could figure it out. Unfortunately, those Book of Mormon folks have us pegged, though. We care more about our fine apparel and possessions then we do helping a brother or sister down on their luck. We're going to go down in history as the people who had so much, yet did nothing with it. Because we cared more about our pimp getting us business than we did our fellow man. Sad.Inspirehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07915227658956979023noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-92177494656723223982012-01-17T03:48:24.068-08:002012-01-17T03:48:24.068-08:00At least Ron Paul doesn't want to kill Amtrak,...At least Ron Paul doesn't want to kill Amtrak, so that's a plus. I also fell upon this 7.5 minute commercial about Ron Paul that showed that his message has been basically the same since he was in kindergarten and that he announced the popping of the housing bubble years before it happened. Plus, Mr. Paul has been in Congress before, so he knows how to get things done, or so the film proposed. Romney hasn't I don't think. <br><br>But actually, it doesn't matter, really, who the President is; he is still the tool of the real powers that are and have been in actual control of our country, men who stand deeply in the background for whom money is merely a tool for power and who think that they know what is best for our world overall, even if that best thing requires the death of millions in payment. Eisenhower realized a little of where the real power dwelt and tried to warn the world about it, but he only saw the outermost layer. He called it the military/industrial complex. The onion's layers are far more involved than just that. And it isn't just this country, either. Romney, Paul, Obama, Bush, etc...it doesn't matter. Monson knows, though. I'm convinced of that.<br><br>A quote from a reply of the latest posting of The Stake President: Follow every word that comes from the the mouth of the Lord. Are there seeming conflicts? Then follow the living Prophet. That's what Prophets are for.Steven Lesterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01285355643172321289noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-19266453452675322892012-01-17T02:27:58.071-08:002012-01-17T02:27:58.071-08:00Going to Zion,In fact, I have not shared any of th...Going to Zion,<br>In fact, I have not shared any of these chapters since I first discovered "Infallible Authority" about five years ago. As I've prepared these essays for posting in recent weeks, this is the first opportunity I've had to read them again myself, as they have been extremely hard to find in one place on the internet.<br><br>I'm once again amazed at the wisdom and clarity to be found within the pure teachings of Mormonism once the scriptures are opened up and laid before me like this.<br><br>Most of us within the church have been traveling a path that has diverted quite a bit from the true religion. For most of my life, for instance, I held the mistaken belief that "Hold to the Rod" meant clinging to the comforting words of the leaders of the Church. It does not.<br><br>The scriptures are very clear that "the Rod" is "the word of God," not the arm of flesh. Helping to make these wonderful essays available online once again is one way I have of repenting for the blind idolatry I once participated in.Alan Rock Watermanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-73909127401379286352012-01-17T02:26:57.708-08:002012-01-17T02:26:57.708-08:00Steven,I want to add a big "Amen!" to ev...Steven,<br>I want to add a big "Amen!" to everything you said above.<br><br>Romney is indeed no threat to the status quo. In fact it's a curiosity to me that the evangelicals find him so distasteful, since he clearly shares their penchant for war and the killing of innocents, all of which stands in stark defiance to the teachings of the religion he claims.<br><br>I'm not sure I can agree, however, that Romney is certain to end up the Republican nominee. The one pure and honest patriot on the stage, Ron Paul, is rapidly gaining support in huge and growing numbers as the rest of the candidates continue to expose themselves for the impostors they are. The next few months of primaries may end up a contest between just these two: the fake Mormon and the real American.Alan Rock Watermanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-12543529493188050672012-01-17T01:24:00.090-08:002012-01-17T01:24:00.090-08:00Yes, all true, I guess, but at least this year Rom...Yes, all true, I guess, but at least this year Romney will be the Republican candidate for President, and his religion isn't a factor anymore, because it is considered no longer to be any kind of a threat. You may have laughed at me when I mentioned a while ago that on the buses of Seattle are ads that show always very happy, successful, normal-looking people doing things that most people don't get to do (like driving big bikes, or surfing in big waves, or driving fast cars), all of them having perfect teeth that reflect the sunlight so happy they are. Beneath each one is the slogan "I'm a Mormon", and leaving the reader to think in return, "I could be one, too". The evangelicals don't like us, but they doth protest too much, and everyone knows that their protests are envy-driven. Romney's acceptance proves that our Church has gone to the dogs, because now the dogs like us. Satan has taken us exactly where he wants us. And what a genius he is.Steven Lesterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01285355643172321289noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-47430123192578348302012-01-17T00:32:31.962-08:002012-01-17T00:32:31.962-08:00Yes, I believe the Church started to fall into apo...Yes, I believe the Church started to fall into apostasy in Joseph's day and became far worse after his death when BY took over, and that the latter day apostasy continues even today. <br><br>For even though the whoredom of polygamy isn't practiced anymore as it was, the Church still believes in it and preaches that it will be lived again and presently allows it in another form, usually just as vile -'serial polygamy' for men who want another wife or wives sealed to them after the deaths or divorces of previous wives. <br><br>There are also many other whoredoms, wickedness and abominations that are accepted, supported, and encouraged by most all members and leaders today, except a few who still believe in Christ and his teachings.<br><br>I believe 2 Nephi 28:11-14 describes the Church very accurately from the time BY took over the Church and then lead the people west, up to today:<br><br>They have all gone out of the way; they have become corrupted.<br>Because of pride and false teachers and false doctrines their churches have become corrupted.<br>They rob the poor because of their fine sanctuaries, and they persecute the meek and the poor in heart, because of their pride they are puffed up.<br>They wear stiff necks and high heads; and because of pride and wickedness and abominations and whoredoms, they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men.<br><br>Even the humble today are still often deceived for a short time, by some of the wicked things taught and allowed in the Church, until the Holy Spirit wakes them up to the truth. <br><br>If we don't have the Holy Spirit to enable us to discern truth from error in everything we see, read, and hear around us or preached to us, we will easily be led astray, blinded and deceived like everyone else is today, and never know it.TLnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-67748769695736600652012-01-16T22:32:03.418-08:002012-01-16T22:32:03.418-08:00This is what the Spirit has been telling me for th...This is what the Spirit has been telling me for the past 2+ years. Of all the 16 chapters of this long blog by Dewey, this one is the closest to the heart of the matter IMHO. <br>The sins of our generation are 1. Selfishness, 2. Pride, 3. Arrogance, 4. Unbelief (meaning false beliefs), 5. Ignorance<br>Dewey really nails it in this one.Brother Jimnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-8541918175850486882012-01-16T22:25:25.731-08:002012-01-16T22:25:25.731-08:00Rock, have you ever shared this chapter specifical...Rock, have you ever shared this chapter specifically with active members in person? If so, how did they react?<br><br>I have said pieces from this chapter to people, but never all at once, I guess I never had it all laid out, just shared my thoughts and a few of those scriptures. It has been pretty effective for in getting people to open up.goingtozionhttp://goingtozion.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-59905184511475437412012-01-16T20:16:14.119-08:002012-01-16T20:16:14.119-08:00If you don't mind me saying so, the main reaso...If you don't mind me saying so, the main reason the Church is in a state of apostasy (and the American empire in a state of decline) is because it has abandoned the poor, and in doing so, abandoned nearly everything Jesus stood for:<br><br>"Now this great loss of the Nephites, and the great slaughter which was among them, would not have happened had it not been for their wickedness and their abomination which was among them; yea, and it was among those also who professed to belong to the church of God. And it was because of the pride of their hearts, because of their exceeding riches, yea, it was because of their oppression to the poor, withholding their food from the hungry, withholding their clothing from the naked, and smiting their humble brethren upon the cheek...." -- Helaman 4:11-12<br><br>"And the people began to be distinguished by ranks, according to their riches and their chances for learning; yea, some were ignorant because of their poverty, and others did receive great learning because of their riches. Now the cause of this iniquity of the people was this—Satan had great power, unto the stirring up of the people to do all manner of iniquity. Now they did not sin ignorantly, for they knew the will of God concerning them, for it had been taught unto them; therefore they did wilfully rebel against God." 3 Nephi 6: 12, 15, 18<br><br>"Why do ye adorn yourselves with that which hath no life, and yet suffer the hungry, and the needy, and the naked, and the sick and the afflicted to pass by you, and notice them not? ...Behold, the sword of vengeance hangeth over you...." -- Mormon 8:39, 41<br><br>Now, we've all heard of Korihor: "...there came a man into the land of Zarahemla, and he was Anti-Christ..." Alma 30:6 And why was he "Anti-Christ?" What did he teach? That "every man fared in this life according to the management of the creature; therefore every man prospered according to his genius, and that every man conquered according to his strength...."<br><br>"Behold, here is wisdom also in me for your good. And you are to be equal, or in other words, you are to have equal claims on the properties, for the benefit of managing the concerns of your stewardships, every man according to his wants and his needs, inasmuch as his wants are just—And all this for the benefit of the church of the living God, that every man may improve upon his talent, that every man may gain other talents, yea, even an hundred fold, to be cast into the Lord’s storehouse, to become the common property of the whole church—Every man seeking the interest of his neighbor, and doing all things with an eye single to the glory of God. This order I have appointed to be an everlasting order unto you, and unto your successors, inasmuch as you sin not. And the soul that sins against this covenant, and hardeneth his heart against it, shall be dealt with according to the laws of my church, and shall be delivered over to the buffetings of Satan until the day of redemption." -- D&C 82:16-21The Arkwelderhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03156847150929492694noreply@blogger.com