tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post582225042404402479..comments2024-03-13T12:52:19.391-07:00Comments on Pure Mormonism: Who Is Changing The Doctrine?Alan Rock Watermanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comBlogger405125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-68365620643224465152014-11-22T07:12:22.047-08:002014-11-22T07:12:22.047-08:00I am not surprised after reading this stuff, in fa...I am not surprised after reading this stuff, in fact I saw it happen right from the moment I was baptised, in 1967. But I was so naive , and unexperienced, and so full of ideals; I was just seventeen.<br />But now we have the internet and what a blessing that is, if you use it in the right way, of course. And yet, after all I have investigated, read and gone through, I am disappointed about this totalitarian behavior at the top of the organisation. Do these people never learn? Should they not live in fear and trembling before the Lord? Could we not say, after reading all this, and realising what is going on here, that the devil would feel perfectly at home in this church, having accomplished nearly everything he had planned, and that maybe this church, having the mission of the restoration of all things and having it totally messed up, could be considered as a great and abominable church in our time? We have to wake up and stand for our individual -by God given- rights as believers and as members, but also for the good of this church.<br />So I will not give up my membership , be it just for the sake of tradition only, but also my scriptures come from this church, and among these the promise that the Lord will send one mighty and strong to set the house of God in order; D&C 85. Seek ye first the Kingdom of God and all its righteousness. Good luck to you all.R. Metzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15875261161185193692noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-6877817621549773742014-11-22T07:00:13.665-08:002014-11-22T07:00:13.665-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.R. Metzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15875261161185193692noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-91002268566354254022014-11-18T15:50:50.632-08:002014-11-18T15:50:50.632-08:00DELUSIONAL THINKING? BY STEVE FINNELL
2 Thessalon...DELUSIONAL THINKING? BY STEVE FINNELL<br /><br />2 Thessalonians 2:1-12....10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe in righteousness. (NKJV)<br /><br />Men need to love the truth in order to be saved. Where is the truth always found? The truth is always present in the Bible and the Bible alone. Bible commentaries are men's opinions. Church creed books are the thoughts of men or at best man's interpretation of Scripture. Books about the Bible are exactly that, books about the Bible, they are not the Bible.<br /><br />Man's thoughts can be reasonable lucid conclusions or they can be delusional.<br /><br />1. Men say belief in Jesus is just one of many ways men can be saved. It that lucid or delusional? <br /><br />Acts 4:10-12....that by the name of Jesus...12 "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men which we must be saved." (NKJV)<br /><br />2. Men say praying to the Virgin Mary is not contrary to Scripture nor is it worship to pray to Mary. Is that lucid or delusional?<br /><br />Matthew 6:9 "In this manner, therefore, pray: Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. (NKJV)<br /><br />Jesus never told anyone to pray to the Virgin Mary.<br /><br />Matthew 4:10 Then Jesus said to him, "Away with you, Satan! For it is written, 'You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve.'" (NKJV)<br /><br />WORSHIP DEFINED: reverent honor and homage paid to God or a sacred personage, or to any object regarded as sacred.<br /><br />Prayer to any person or anything is worship. Praying to the Virgin Mary is worship.<br /><br />Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory is forgotten. (NKJV)<br /><br />Even if men pray to the dead, the dead do not hear them. Only God hears and answers prayers.<br /><br />3. Men affirm that water baptism is not essential for the forgiveness of sins and that men are saved before water baptism. Is that lucid or delusional?<br /><br />Colossians 2:12-13 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, (NKJV)<br /><br />If men do not believe that God forgives them of trespasses following their faith and being buried in baptism, is that lucid or delusional?<br /><br />Mark 16:16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. (NKJV)<br /><br />If men honestly believe that, "will be saved," means they are already saved, is that lucid or delusional?<br /><br />4. Men teach that there are many variations of the gospel and its terms of pardon. Is that lucid or delusional?<br /><br /> Galatians 1:8 Let God's curses fall on anyone, including myself, who preaches any other way to be saved than the one we told you about; yes, if an angel comes from heaven and preaches any other message, let him be forever cursed. (The Living Bible-Paraphrased)<br /><br />The way the apostles told men how to become saved. A. Faith:John 3:16. B. Confession: Romans 10:9. C. Repentance: Acts 2:38. D. Immersion in water: Acts 22:16, 1 Peter 3:21, Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16, Galatians 3:27.<br /><br /><br />Lucid thinking or delusional conclusions? <br /><br /> <br /><br />YOU ARE INVITED TO FOLLOW MY BLOG. http://steve-finnell.blogspot.comSteve Finnellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12863026367048527526noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-44646044698729285472014-07-25T10:51:16.435-07:002014-07-25T10:51:16.435-07:00Maj
Just sent you an email thanks brother.Maj<br /> <br /> Just sent you an email thanks brother.Nate Knoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-63104481839400189322014-07-25T10:22:36.032-07:002014-07-25T10:22:36.032-07:00@Nate K
I agree with you brother! Thanks for post...@Nate K<br /><br />I agree with you brother! Thanks for posting. Hey, I just read something that has blown my mind (in a good way). It is too long to post here. If there's a way to contact you via e-mail, could you send a mail to MajJohnButtrick@Startmail.com? I will respond with what I am talking about (after typing it up).MajJohnButtricknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-14123681741403495702014-07-25T09:29:47.374-07:002014-07-25T09:29:47.374-07:00@BK and anonymous
Yes thank you. Funny enoug...@BK and anonymous<br /><br /> Yes thank you. Funny enough what you both are saying is taught right in the Book of Mormon. "We are saved by grace" we "must rely wholly upon the merits of Christ" lehi told jacob he knew he would be saved "because of the righteousness of his Redeemer" not because of Jacobs righteousness. <br /> The one verse everyone takes out of context is when Nephi said we are saved by grace after all we can do. If you really study Nephi's teachings he said that the labor we have to perform is to "turn and look" like the Israelites looking at the serpent on the staff. All we can do is turn our hearts to Christ. <br /> King Benjamin taught us to acknowledge our nothingness and unworthiness daily and humble ourselves to the dust, calling on the name of The Lord daily. Unfortunately somehow in the LDS culture obedience has become the saving principle in most peoples minds and it has become pharisaic. <br /> People in the church often teach that we obtain the spirit through obedience or by doing "service" or by reading scriptures etc when they are actually denying the scriptures that clearly teach that the only way to obtain the spirit is through faith in Jesus Christ. Then the grace given to us (which grace is a very real power) enables and empowers us to do the works of God. (I know you both get this but I hope someone can consider this that hasn't)<br /> The scriptures teach that "no man can please God without faith". Think on that! We can spin our wheels fulfilling callings and going to the temple blah blah blah and never please God at all unless we first exercise faith in Jesus Christ. <br /> The thing that I think many people of many religions forget is that grace is not just given once and that we can fall from grace. If we can turn our hearts to God then we can turn our hearts away as well and in fact we all do. We need to continue to supplicate God for grace over and over and as we do this He will mold us (as you mentioned above) until we reach "the stature of Christ) <br /> Here is the thing. Faith brings grace, grace ALWAYS brings the Holy Ghost, the Holy Ghost ALWAYS brings revelation, continued revelation brings prophets, prophets bring scripture, and thus God never changes. <br /> Jesus taught in the New Testament that a leader in the kingdom will bring forth both old things and new. Jesus never taught (nor has any prophet taught) that all we have to know is written in the bible or in the bible and Book of Mormon etc etc. that is a doctrine of the devil and has been handed down by men who have accepted it from other men and so on. <br /> <br /> Nate Knoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-30848763057722840382014-07-24T23:46:24.044-07:002014-07-24T23:46:24.044-07:00Amen Anonymous 10:32.
I agree that Jesus is the ...Amen Anonymous 10:32. <br /><br />I agree that Jesus is the only way to salvation. <br /><br />And Jesus warned us about all these false prophets around us today and in the past, who try to get us to follow & trust in them instead. They all put words in Christ's mouth and add new and even opposite teachings/scriptures to the words of Christ, when Christ said it all, and nothing else nor any other scripture is needed.<br /><br />'True' prophets would not 'add' more to Christ's words, they would just 'repeat' them, over and over, til people finally understood & lived them. Like you did above. BKnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-71890489588111870992014-07-24T22:32:06.731-07:002014-07-24T22:32:06.731-07:00Hello friends. I am genuinely happy that many morm...Hello friends. I am genuinely happy that many mormon's thirst for righteousness and long to live good lives. Remember "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." John 3:15 "But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God." John 3:21. If you believe in Jesus and confess your sins he is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness as it says in the Bible. Jesus has the perfect love that can sanctify us daily molding us into his image. Believe in Jesus only for he is the only way to salvation and to the Father. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-57475405666661861362014-07-24T15:21:45.194-07:002014-07-24T15:21:45.194-07:00Interesting article. One quick comment on your Ju...Interesting article. One quick comment on your June 23 update -- your update seems to imply that Toscano was excommunicated for failing to "reign in his wife." I realize and appreciate that your prose is often somewhat tongue in cheek, but this seems to be a pretty far reach for the situation which Paul himself describes as being tied to a particular Sunstone speech that he gave. Seems I need to go back and do some re-reading to verify.High Powdernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-74270709656847240552014-07-23T05:30:09.518-07:002014-07-23T05:30:09.518-07:00Maj
I liked how described the feeling of enlar...Maj<br /><br /> I liked how described the feeling of enlargement it sounds like the swelling alma referred to in his discourse on faith. I definitely believe your answer about Joseph Smith and agree he accomplished that which God had planned for him to do. <br /> I also agree that our spiritual journey is tricky and very individualized. I guess the important thing that only rests between us and God is if we are truly seeking with all of our hearts to love The Lord and follow His word which He gives to us and always seeking further light and knowledge at the same time.<br /> The fact that you fasted and prayed to learn the Lords will says a lot about you when most people (including me so often) want to coast through life thinking we are enduring to the end without having to progress spiritually . Thanks for the clarification.Nate Knoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-48230211814952782482014-07-22T19:49:39.389-07:002014-07-22T19:49:39.389-07:00@Nate K
Thanks for posting that link. I have certa...@Nate K<br />Thanks for posting that link. I have certainly felt a similar buzzing, electrical-like sensation, but not every time. <br /><br />@Candace<br />Thanks for posting your link. I will check it out!<br /><br />@Irven<br />Thanks for the update on Rock.MajJohnButtricknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-70020189865442384092014-07-22T19:17:30.250-07:002014-07-22T19:17:30.250-07:00@Nate K
I understand the need here for you to get...@Nate K<br /><br />I understand the need here for you to get specific. It's not like endorphins, it's a positive, enlarging feeling of the mind. It's difficult to describe. It's like that old saw, that if you met someone from another planet, how would you describe to him how salt tastes? Salty? It's something people have to experience, and I suppose that's where the scary part is, for I fear that some people are psychopaths, or lack that fundamental "thing" that helps them feel goodness. Their wiring is not right. It's also possible to be fooled, as we are told in the scriptures. However, let's look at what I wrote: When I'm giving a blessing, etc. and seeking revelation, the way I describe it, is that I move in a direction based on my feelings, and then pause and wait for further light and knowledge, and then proceed based on what I feel good about. When I complete that portion, I move further. It's difficult to describe. First of all, I'm seeking to do good - in my example, giving a blessing. I'm trying to subordinate my will to that of God's. I stop and see if I feel that I am getting that enlarging good feeling, a feeling of compassion. Let Moroni 7:11 be your guide. "A bitter fountain cannot bring forth good water; neither can a good fountain bring forth bitter water". It's like what a Supreme court judge said once regarding the difficulty in defining what is pornography. He said he may not be able to articulate it exactly, but he knows it when he sees it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_it_when_I_see_it By the same token, I know the good feelings when I receive them, and they are in keeping with goodness. I'm sure that Joseph Smith, having been instructed by Angels, and that is my testimony, was probably better at it than me. However, that is not to say that he couldn't have made significant errors. I was personally told in prayer when I was very close to leaving the church, and had fasted and prayed for a couple of days, that there hasn't been a perfect man that has walked the earth save Jesus only, and that he (Joseph) accomplished what the Lord gave for him to accomplish, and any errors, mistakes or sins he may have done or made are between him and God, and I wasn't to worry about that any longer. So, that is the starting point of my personal journey of faith. Post Joseph Smith, I'm not sure what to think. I'm still searching.MajJohnButtricknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-69028840534067094152014-07-22T18:52:24.100-07:002014-07-22T18:52:24.100-07:00Irven,
Thanks for the update on Rock. Good though...Irven,<br /><br />Thanks for the update on Rock. Good thoughts, energy and prayers on his push to finish his book. It should be a lovely piece of work. If anyone can attend Rock's session at Sunstone make sure to share your impressions.Candacenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-73215504118584456102014-07-22T18:45:12.377-07:002014-07-22T18:45:12.377-07:00http://www.spiritual-experiences.com/real-spiritua...http://www.spiritual-experiences.com/real-spiritual-story.php?story=220<br /><br />Please check this out. Maybe you will find some edification. I personally felt the spirit in reading many of these accounts. Keep in mind most or all of these people are not LDS. Read the comments! Nate Knoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-77190247862835562402014-07-22T18:41:38.597-07:002014-07-22T18:41:38.597-07:00@maj
I don't think you are nuts at all. Th...@maj<br /><br /> I don't think you are nuts at all. The only thing I would ask for a little more clarification on is what it means when you say that "you feel good" about something. If that is all Joseph smith doing that kind of scares the crap out of me. I recently read a 15 year old girl's account about the euphoria she felt when she strangled a child. <br /> I am definitely not equating your feelings to this I am just pointing out that "feeling good" means a lot and can be interpreted in a lot of different ways. Doing drugs can definitely "feel good" but I wouldn't trust the thoughts I had while on drugs... Again I am just asking for what exactly your experience is. <br /> This is something I am intrigued with and I loved what Adam wrote about the feeling and experience of the Holy Ghost because that is exactly what I feel. In fact I am going to find a website I found recently and I would encourage anyone who comes across this to look it up and read the comments. You will find a lot of people describing the same experience and they are from many different belief systems. Give me a few minutes to get the link. Thanks Nate Knoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-60178468762441063712014-07-22T18:18:05.882-07:002014-07-22T18:18:05.882-07:00Hey everybody,
For those wondering whats going on...Hey everybody,<br /><br />For those wondering whats going on with Rock, I just talked to him a few minutes ago. He's doing fine. He has been slammed trying to finish a book he has been writing and preparing for the Sunstone event in Salt Lake on the weekend of August 2nd.<br /><br />He asked me to make a quick post and let those wondering know his status as he hasn't had time to keep up and post.Irvenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17926122949198322768noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-77591219379215023322014-07-22T17:06:50.512-07:002014-07-22T17:06:50.512-07:00MajorJB,
If you haven't already, you might en...MajorJB,<br /><br />If you haven't already, you might enjoy Rock's episode, "The Metaphysics of Mormonism'. <br /><br />http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2011/03/metaphysics-of-mormonism.html<br /><br />For the same reasons you might enjoy the DVD he recommends, 'What the Bleep Do We Know? - Down the Rabbit Hole'.<br /><br />http://www.amazon.com/What-Bleep-QUANTUM-Three-Disc-Special/dp/B000FKO3JO<br /><br />If you are inclined to psychic abilities or simply embrace the fun of exploration you might also find Hemi-Sync technology interesting. Hemi-Sync leverages the deep connection between our ears and our brains to lead the user into states of consciousness marked by highly coherent brain hemisphere states. While I've experienced a sense of transcendence once or twice in the ten years I've used Hemi-Sync I've benefitted from regularly going into deep meditative states. The Monroe Institute offers on-site courses specifically in remote viewing and OBE among others.<br /><br />http://www.monroeinstitute.org/Candacenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-33462295889793792962014-07-22T16:58:51.274-07:002014-07-22T16:58:51.274-07:00That's quite a site, Major.
Again, interestin...That's quite a site, Major.<br /><br />Again, interesting. I don't seem to be able to come up with much more today--LOL!<br /><br /><br />To refine the mind's ability to perceive and to combine that with spiritual and moral purity--<br /><br />what is revelation, if not that?<br /><br />God spoke directly to Alma; gave him words.<br /><br />I think that most people would agree that everyone has a slightly different way of perceiving inspiration--<br /><br />Still, I am not happy about the possibility of the 'government' being able to do this--<br /><br />*shudder*<br /><br />But I know there are many things that have happened that most Americans/Mormons would not believe.<br /><br />nonamefornownoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-31720367164962426702014-07-22T15:23:41.364-07:002014-07-22T15:23:41.364-07:00--that's interesting.--that's interesting.nonamefornownoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-68899354026023200122014-07-22T12:42:30.138-07:002014-07-22T12:42:30.138-07:00And you have to ask why the urim and thummim were ...And you have to ask why the urim and thummim were taken after the 116 pages were lost and why he only used the dark seer stone after that (according to some sources). The dark seer stone kind of reminds me of saruman and his dark seer stone on lord of the rings... Ha ha it is just all so interesting when the scriptures mention clear or white seer stones and that is what we will be given etc but I suppose on the breastplate there were multiple colors. All I can say is we better receive our own answers about everything. <br /> For instance is it really a gift of God to believe on other peoples words like section 46 claims? Sure has lead to a lot of atrocities to just believe in others words. Like elder Nelson said last conference "50 million people can be deceived!" Was this an intentional reference to the LDS church?Nate Knoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-276761323633364332014-07-21T13:02:30.622-07:002014-07-21T13:02:30.622-07:00Awesome post. Awesome awesome. But I am still go...Awesome post. Awesome awesome. But I am still going to be a jerk and point out that nonplussed means the opposite of what you insinuated: It means surprised and unsure how to react. Jenniferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12421153137361537970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-86205953514514371502014-07-21T11:17:17.584-07:002014-07-21T11:17:17.584-07:00@ anonymous
Through your admission that you h...@ anonymous<br /><br /> Through your admission that you have never received revelation I am surprised that you have any interest to be on any type of gospel website. I wasn't asking for a revelation for the world as you know. I was asking if you have had the Holy Ghost tell you anything contrary to what Rock has been saying, otherwise, you have no grounds whatsoever to doubt anything Rock has said. <br /> Anyway this conversation is frivolous. I hope everyone knows that just because a revelation is not written down and presented to the world it doesn't mean it was not a revelation. It just means it was a personal revelation and not binding upon anyone but the individual. Nate Knoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-64259082674713538382014-07-21T10:48:56.338-07:002014-07-21T10:48:56.338-07:00for what it is worth, a family member of mine has ...for what it is worth, a family member of mine has FB--<br /><br />and is a friend of Waterman; by that I mean, a FB friend--<br /><br />There were some things that a few people said a few weeks ago (one person, I believe) that Rock was saying on his FB--<br /><br />ugly things--<br /><br />So I asked permission to go over the FB page--<br /><br />and I did so.<br /><br />I couldn't find it. Not anywhere. Possibly I didn't get into every little tiny thing, but I went as far as I could get and saw nothing of what Rock was being accused of saying or writing.<br /><br />I had to conclude at that point, or surmise anyway--<br /><br />that it was a false accusation.<br /><br />So it could be again--<br /><br />His FB is open; it can be searched--<br /><br />I'm probably not very good at it. I asked my family member to look as well, and there was nothing found--<br /><br />I do visit a few Mormon blogs, and those I visit are maintained by people who want to be members of the church and love Jesus Christ--<br /><br />on another blog recently a person came on saying all sorts of vitriolic things about the very mild-mannered person who masters the blog.<br /><br />I think there are people 'out there' who are hurting and find some release in hurting others.<br /><br />It is sad; they need help, but they won't get it by attacking other people anonymously on Mormon blogs--<br /><br />you can pray for people anonymously, though--<br /><br />and I do. <br /><br />No, Brigham Young never received any revelations and admitted it, so whoever is speaking this latest 'spew'--<br /><br />doesn't have accurate information.<br /><br />There is some evidence that he was behind 132, yes.<br /><br />But revelation? I don't know; he claimed never to have gotten any, so 132 was just Brigham--<br /><br />Brigham says--<br /><br />Decades ago a group from Nauvoo put out a very cute program with a musical number in it called, "Brother Brigham says"--<br /><br />The man said a lot of things--<br /><br />nonamefornownoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-82449824886155848572014-07-20T20:58:25.169-07:002014-07-20T20:58:25.169-07:00"Most of Joseph's revelations were receiv..."Most of Joseph's revelations were received through these means."<br /><br />I thought those were how he translated, not received revelation?..<br /><br />And the only "revelation I believe BY ever "received" was section 132confusednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-76669998162104053772014-07-20T18:30:29.588-07:002014-07-20T18:30:29.588-07:00@JT
I'm not going to waste everyone's tim...@JT<br /><br />I'm not going to waste everyone's time arguing with you. However, I will say this: You say "as long as it serves (my) agenda". What agenda is that exactly? You presume too much. I don't agree with Rock's use of the terms "clowns" and "dunces", but I was pointing out your hypocricy in calling him an "attention whore". At least he has salient arguments. Calling him an "attention whore" is uncharitable, and a poor example of the believers. And by the way... when it's written, it's libel, not slander. Better luck next time.<br />MajJohnButtricknoreply@blogger.com