tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post5567217846101608746..comments2024-03-13T12:52:19.391-07:00Comments on Pure Mormonism: Yerrrrr OUT!Alan Rock Watermanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comBlogger201125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-36625149175786282152017-07-09T01:12:25.487-07:002017-07-09T01:12:25.487-07:00My answer to Arlo's Daughter, above: Did I rea...My answer to Arlo's Daughter, above: Did I read somewhere in the comments above that by baptism we enter into the Kingdom of God (not the church)? I think not. That is a quote from a brother in the early church, I believe it was George Q Cannon. No excomm. can undo this entrance into the KoG; only our own transgressions can do that. So without any righteous judgement the exed person is still in the Kingdom, having his full priesthood authority conferred upon him. <br />I know of some miraculous healings in the past by brethren who were "handled" unjustly.R. Metzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15875261161185193692noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-61145022755520926422015-10-10T21:08:53.540-07:002015-10-10T21:08:53.540-07:00Rock and Connie,
Only the most righteous seem ...Rock and Connie,<br /> <br />Only the most righteous seem to be the most persecuted! If you weren't a threat to the Bretheren, you wouldn't have been called to court. You've opened the eyes of a goodly number of righteous saints.. What I did not hear in your interview was the one glaring and obviously missing component of any church proceeding of any worth: PRAYER. Why did the 17 men (17, are you kidding me?? Talk about intimidation tactics!!) not engage in prayerful consideration at the beginning of the proceeding? Why didn't they say, "Brother and Sister Waterman, we would like to get down on our knees with you and offer up a prayer to Heavenly Father exhorting his help in ensuring the Spirit is with us, and we are guided in finding the truth of all things pertinent to this proceeding? Where was the humble demeanor and God-like concern and love for you as children of our Father in Heaven? And were they in prayerful consideration and contemplation (again on their knees) during the 30 minutes you awaited the "Lord's decision?" Did they tell you that the Lord instructed them in their course of action? What happened to the humble servant who would be so fearful of denying a Brother the Confirmation of the Holy Ghost, that the servant would never take that away from you without the Lord's guidance lest he likewise be judged and condemned? Why didn't they vote with silent ballot so that chances might have been, that at least one humble servant, who otherwise felt coerced, might have had a chance to express his true feelings without the fear of reprisal? These questions have, of course, all been answered ad infinitum by many gospel-loving and TBMs who post on your blog. <br /><br />Been there, done that with the ex-court. Where was the prayer, the humility, the love? It was replaced with coldness, arrogance, and smirks of self-importance. This is what I heard from my Bishop.... "Look at me!! Look at my power!! Look what I can do to you. Look at me showing off in front of my two new counselors." I can promise you that there was no prayer, fasting, or asking for the Spirit to be with us in that court. Nonetheless, it was a very sad day for me, and a hard row to hoe ahead, when I felt an actual physical lack of the presence of the Holy Ghost. <br /><br />Although I am once again a member in good standing, I feel more empowered, more buoyed up, and have a stronger testimony than ever before from reading your blog than from sitting in a sacrament meeting listening to the same stories (sometimes with a different-time, different-place twist to them) that I have heard for the last 50+ years. <br /><br />I pray for you both that the Lord will still bless you with the Holy Spirit and guide you in your seeking of the truth in these latter days. I also pray that you both will be buoyed up by those seeking to help you in your quest, and who are pouring forth their love to you that we no longer feel from the leaders of the church. Count me as one of your sisters in the "True Gospel."Arlo's Daughterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13082975513157909157noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-3993398572741223222015-08-31T09:19:51.165-07:002015-08-31T09:19:51.165-07:00STAR CHAMBER COURT. There is no justice here. Jus...STAR CHAMBER COURT. There is no justice here. Just a rubber stamp and an image that must be maintained that we are pious people who uphold Church Policy. I was excommunicated in August of 1993 and I lost my wife and NINE children because of it. I laugh at the ridiculous hypocrisy as the BEST kept secret in the Church today is THE GOSPEL. Embrace The Gospel and out you go. Gotta be fat, dumb and happy and then you can be a FAITHFUL member.... LOL. Rock is still a Church member as am I. No harm no foul. Just more nonsense in an apostate ChurchBrother Waynehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01604567675084760756noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-44419367697051221322015-06-19T11:56:23.845-07:002015-06-19T11:56:23.845-07:00Props for the Phoenix Wright picture. That made me...Props for the Phoenix Wright picture. That made me chuckle quite a bit! :)Joehammer79https://www.blogger.com/profile/09452421098420992427noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-33426030420322714092015-06-18T05:27:49.170-07:002015-06-18T05:27:49.170-07:00I forget things to.
Don't worry about it Rock...I forget things to. <br />Don't worry about it Rock, it happens to all of us.Robin Hoodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07821352042750367654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-13666370443039779502015-06-17T20:48:46.896-07:002015-06-17T20:48:46.896-07:00Good idea, Robin Hood.
THAT'S what I should ha...Good idea, Robin Hood.<br />THAT'S what I should have done!<br /><br />What was I thinking -forgetting to become a bishop and stake president along the way?Alan Rock Watermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-4844002429153189962015-06-17T09:02:12.878-07:002015-06-17T09:02:12.878-07:00Just listen to yourself Rock. Lawyers and subpoena...<br />Just listen to yourself Rock. Lawyers and subpoena's - good grief!<br /><br />This is what you should have done:<br />Start a blog. <br />Get a following.<br />Begin to express views which seem popular with a certain crowd.<br />Build on the fame.<br />Be critical of the church.<br />Take stances against the church.<br />For purposes of credibility, be an "active" member.<br />For even more credibility be a former missionary/bishop/stake president.<br />Build up more of a following.<br />Wait for the consequences.<br />Get excommunicated.<br />Communicate the discipline on the blog.<br />Appeal(even more publicity).<br />Continue with more followers.<br /><br />This approach seems to work every time.<br />Oh wait......Robin Hoodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07821352042750367654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-44128986614491894192015-06-15T12:31:41.401-07:002015-06-15T12:31:41.401-07:00Rock,
Robin Hood's position is clearly correc...Rock,<br /><br />Robin Hood's position is clearly correct. As long as one agrees with the leaders, one cannot be wrong. So even if an "Area Seventy" is called and sustained in General Conference, and not selected and sustained locally, they are "local authorities."<br /><br />Likewise, if the leaders call a tail a leg, Robin Hood would be correct in affirming a dog has 5 legs. He cannot be led astray - unless, by chance, the leaders affirm holy matrimony is between consenting adults, regardless of sex - or so he has said in the past.<br /><br />I'm not sure why that particular issue would suffice to divide him from the infallible leadership, while seemingly nothing short of it would, but he's indicated a potential willingness to go rogue over it. Would they cease being infallible at that time? And that time is predictably coming - especially with the change in BSA policies and the upcoming almost-certain Supreme Court case which is nigh-unto-inevitably going to legalize homogamy.Jared Liveseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10309044282039536254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-67624329969320348422015-06-15T10:36:10.242-07:002015-06-15T10:36:10.242-07:00Robin Hood,
I have no motive nor need to "win...Robin Hood,<br />I have no motive nor need to "win" our silly spat regarding the true role of the Seventy versus the historical muddying that took place since the prophet Joseph's death. What benefit would there be in it for me? There is none.<br /><br />What I find telling is your inability to let go of the matter once I suggested the matter is virtually unknowable, as are many historical questions.<br /><br />Still, if you have a need to come out on top, I'll concede you the victory. Even if we had some way of knowing what the answer is, it's a minor thing. Doesn't matter to me. So I hereby declare you are right and I am wrong. (About what, exactly, I have frankly forgotten.)<br /><br />You are correct about another thing: I can say anything I like about what happened in the disciplinary hearing because that body refused to record it or permit any recording by any participant. I can make myself look as good as I wish, and make them look like fools. I can make up anything I like about it, but only because they failed in their duty. They could have set the record themselves by abiding by scriptural imperatives, which REQUIRE a public offense to be conducted publicly as per D&C 42:91, not in a secret Star Chamber hearing of the kind they deliberately conducted under cover of darkness. Who benefits from such secrecy? Not me. The men who do not wish their calumny exposed to the light of public opinion are the only ones who hoped to benefit.<br /><br />Unlike many who are subject to such proceedings, I have a public forum with which I can make known not only the bogus charges that were presented, but also the convoluted reasoning used to discredit me. They must have known I would tell my side of the story; they had every opportunity to record theirs, but declined to do so. In preparation of my appeal my attorney is preparing to subpoena all notes and minutes, including all quoted and documents from church handbooks, manuals, and statements of general authorities that were used by the stake president to charge me and to argue against me. So in the near future I will release that record so you can compare it to what you already assume those records reveal.<br /><br />In the meantime, I have my notes, my memory, the memories of my witnesses, and my own recording which I may or may not make public depending on how necessary I deem it to be. <br /><br />I "lost" this case, and the other side won, which I presume is the only thing that matters to the other side. Still, in this case the victor won't be the one writing the history. I will.Alan Rock Watermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-85703578000697294552015-06-15T09:22:45.693-07:002015-06-15T09:22:45.693-07:00If I have disappointed you Rock, I can only assume...If I have disappointed you Rock, I can only assume it's because I have said what I think instead of the usual sycophantic nonsense served up by many of your merry band of followers.<br />You know full well that I was right and you were wrong about the status of an Area Seventy, but you wouldn't concede the point. Well, not until it became obvious you had to. When you finally did it was done with so many caveats that to say it was a grudging admission would be a significant understatement.<br /><br />My point in raising this was to simply demonstrate that if you displayed the same attitude in the DC you were on a hiding to nothing. These men were not going to waste their time arguing semantics with you.<br /><br />And to claim that the charge against you was not explained is, frankly, ridiculous. I don't think anyone believes that for a moment. The making of the charge is part and parcel of the DC procedure and would certainly have been done. The fact that you didn't agree with the charge or their interpretation of it is an entirely different matter Rock, so stop trying to pull the wool over our eyes.<br /><br />But of course you can say anything you like about the DC because you know those 17 men are not going to publicly contradict you. <br />It's called dignity Rock. <br />Give it a try sometime.<br /><br /> Robin Hoodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07821352042750367654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-75254389124070165202015-06-14T00:05:17.629-07:002015-06-14T00:05:17.629-07:00About keys we have and have not; it meay be intere...About keys we have and have not; it meay be interesting to have the quote from Brigham in full below. Here it is:<br />It is supposed by this people (the Latter-day Saints) that we have all the ordinances in our possession for life and salvation and exaltation, and that we are administering in these ordinances. This is not the case. We are in possession of all the ordinances that can be administered in the flesh; but there are other ordinances and administrations that must be administered beyond this world. <br />I know you would ask what they are. I will mention one. We have not, neither can we<br />receive here, the ordinance and the keys of the resurrection.<br />We hold the authority to dispose of, alter and change the elements; but we have not received authority to organize native element to even make a spear of grass grow.<br />Another item: We have not the power in the flesh to create and bring forth or produce a<br />spirit; but we have the power to produce a temporal body. The germ of this, God has placed within us. And when our spirits receive our bodies, and through our faithfulness we are worthy to be crowned, we will then receive authority to produce both spirit and body. But the keys we cannot receive in the flesh. <br />Herein, brethren, you can perceive that we have not finished, and cannot finish our work, while we live here, no more than Jesus did while he was in the flesh.<br />We cannot receive, while in the flesh, the keys to form and fashion kingdoms and to organize matter, for they are beyond our capacity and calling, beyond this world. <br />In the resurrection, men who have been faithful and diligent in all things in the flesh, have kept their first and second estate, and worthy to be crowned Gods, even the sons of God, will be ordained to organize matter. (JD 15:137)<br />Btw I found it in Mysteries of creation by Ogden Kraut, available on the web; interesting read.R. Metzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15875261161185193692noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-62448090219613853372015-06-13T18:18:17.675-07:002015-06-13T18:18:17.675-07:00When in 1865 John Henry Newman was consulted by a ...<i>When in 1865 John Henry Newman was consulted by a friend regarding the founding of a Catholic historical review he replied: "Nothing would be better—but who would bear it? Unless one doctored all one's facts, one would be thought a bad Catholic."98 At the same time Duchesne was protesting in vain to his fellow church historians "that it was contrary to a sound historical method to insist on twisting the texts to make them talk like Athanasius," that is, to control the earlier texts in support of later theology.99 In opposing this Duchesne was bucking the established practice of centuries. According to De Wulf, when St. Thomas Aquinas wants to disagree with St. Augustine, his unfailing guide and mentor, "he does not contradict him; he does not consider him suspect . . . instead he transforms the meaning of his statements, sometimes by slight corrections, sometimes by violent interpretations which do violence to the text." Von Hertling has listed some 250 citations from Augustine, a good portion of them deliberately falsified.100</i> <a href="http://publications.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=1104&index=7&keyword=doctored%20all%20one%5C%27s" rel="nofollow">- Cite</a><br /><br />Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.Jared Liveseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10309044282039536254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-40057572542500503852015-06-13T15:58:29.181-07:002015-06-13T15:58:29.181-07:00Thanks for that reference, Log, to Oaks quoting Ki...Thanks for that reference, Log, to Oaks quoting Kimball quoting Brigham Young about how we don't have all the keys that exist. I've been looking for that.Joshua Tolleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08481531515300677240noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-1881083423329590672015-06-13T15:33:55.057-07:002015-06-13T15:33:55.057-07:00I bring these things up simply to point out that, ...I bring these things up simply to point out that, though I am a member of the Church in good standing, I am not blind. These things do not make me happy, and I don't go looking for them - I simply notice them as I run across them (and I've run across more than I've mentioned). I don't bring them up in classes. I haven't taught them to my children.<br /><br />And I have no problem obeying the presiding authorities in the Church. Why not? It's not like they're telling me to sin. And if God calls them prophets, seers, revelators, and apostles, then that's good enough for me to be able to call them likewise. And if in the Church priesthood is governing authority and keys are licenses to use that authority, then they have all they claim to have. <a href="https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2014/04/the-keys-and-authority-of-the-priesthood?lang=eng" rel="nofollow">Unless you count Elder Oaks, citing President Kimball, in saying there exist priesthood keys they don't have, such as those of the power of resurrection.</a> (So the correct answer to the "keys" question in the TR interview would be "no.")<br /><br />No reason to make a scene. What good would it do anyways? If our business is to save souls, it seems to me there is quite enough to practice, teach, expound, and exhort right in the scriptures. Particularly in the commandments of the Lord.Jared Liveseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10309044282039536254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-24005340954497864432015-06-13T15:04:41.955-07:002015-06-13T15:04:41.955-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Jared Liveseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10309044282039536254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-47735741627070607962015-06-13T14:47:13.539-07:002015-06-13T14:47:13.539-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Jared Liveseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10309044282039536254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-25552426604341456652015-06-13T11:47:53.222-07:002015-06-13T11:47:53.222-07:00Log said:
DX: Kneel before us, kiss the sceptre ...<br /><br />Log said:<br /><br /><br />DX: Kneel before us, kiss the sceptre of our authority, acknowledge our rightful and ancient claims, and we will deign to fellowship you?<br /><br />I'm not sure, if I were not already a member of the Church, I would find that offer appealing. Indeed, it reminded me forcefully of the "offer" of Giddianhi.<br /><br />All of this only has significance if the Church has the power to bind in heaven that which it binds on earth. If it has this power, the same power which the Catholics claim, then Rock's excommunication is indeed to be mourned. If the Church has not this power, then the Church - particularly the Brethrenite faction - is literally in the position of Giddianhi's robbers, which may be why it is in the Book of Mormon in the first place.<br /><br />Does the Church have this power? Well, she appeals to D&C 132, and an historical chain of imposition of hands to prove it, but the other things which ought to accompany the power to bind in heaven what is bound on earth - revelation, seership, translation, prophecy, miracles, ministrations of angels, entering the presence of God and his Christ - are not on public display, but are solely a matter of private rumors.<br /><br />Indeed, the Saints, who are supposed to model their master, now cast people out while pretending they have left of their own volition - see DX for an example of this posturing.<br /><br />Or that there was some other sin involved that the Church just isn't talking about, or evidence they have that we don't. Robin Hood is the Church's white knight on that end - but his position as Bishop kind of requires it.<br /><br />No, it is as simple as this - we, like the Muslims, now have a creed to which all the Church must assent, or be kicked out of our society. That creed may be summed up as "There is no God but God, and the current President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is His Prophet, and we swear with an oath to obey him as though he were God." To fail to assent to this creed is what constitutes apostasy. This creed is enforced with excommunication only upon those who make the leadership look bad, for it is really the Church's public image - her claims to authority and infallibility, which is being protected - like the golden statue Nebuchadnezzar set up that Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego refused to worship, for the which they were cast into an oven. [Excommunication!]<br /><br />Rock is guilty of not worshipping the image of the Church, and encouraging others to do likewise. That is apostasy today.<br /><br />In fact, we may have affirmative reason to suppose the Church has lacked, from a very early time, the power to bind in heaven that done on earth with specific regards to excommunication, by the Church's own admission. Gileadi was a more recent case in point.<br /><br />So if the Church has demonstrably lacked power in heaven to make her earthly excommunications stick, by her own admission, has she likewise lacked power to make her other earthly ordinances stick?<br /><br />Indeed, which of the powers she claims does she actually have? And how can we know? Apparently not by having her leadership declare it to us, as demonstrated by excommunications they admit were not honored by Heaven.<br /><br />What if our temple rites are likewise not honored in Heaven? How can we know if they are, if our excommunications are admittedly not? What of our baptisms, our sacraments?<br /><br />Indeed, does this not call into question every aspect of what we are taught from the chief seats and lecterns?<br /><br />And why teach ye the law, and deny that which is written<br /><br />And why teach ye the law, and deny that which is written<br /><br />And why teach ye the law, and deny that which is written<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Log I don't think I have ever heard you write with such decided opinion. Is this the same Log I have chided from time to time for long boring pontification??? Wow, well done. Not because you take a position for or against but because of the witness of truth I received from your words. Mike Hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15394211710296208085noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-66488141887100106412015-06-13T09:36:58.226-07:002015-06-13T09:36:58.226-07:00JST Luke 16:13 No servant can serve two masters; f...<i><a href="http://centerplace.org/hs/iv/iv-luk.htm" rel="nofollow">JST Luke</a> 16:13 No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.<br /><br />14 <b>And the Pharisees also who were covetous</b>, heard all these things; and they derided him.<br /><br />15 And he said unto them, Ye are they who justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts; for that which is highly esteemed among men, is an abomination in the sight of God.<br /><br />16 And they said unto him, <b>We have the law, and the prophets</b>; but as for this man we will not receive him to be our ruler; for he maketh himself to be a judge over us.<br /><br />17 Then said Jesus unto them, The law and the prophets testify of me; yea, and all the prophets who have written, even until John, have foretold of these days.<br /><br />18 Since that time, the kingdom of God is preached, and every man who seeketh truth presseth into it.<br /><br />19 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than for one tittle of the law to fail.<br /><br />20 <b>And why teach ye the law, and deny that which is written</b>; and condemn him whom the Father hath sent to fulfill the law, that ye might all be redeemed?<br /><br />21 O fools! <b>for you have said in your hearts, There is no God</b>. And you pervert the right way; and the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence of you; and you persecute the meek; and in your violence you seek to destroy the kingdom; and ye take the children of the kingdom by force. Woe unto you, ye adulterers!</i>Jared Liveseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10309044282039536254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-68547088815099883252015-06-13T09:26:48.243-07:002015-06-13T09:26:48.243-07:00So if the Church has demonstrably lacked power in ...So if the Church has demonstrably lacked power in heaven to make her earthly excommunications stick, by her own admission, has she likewise lacked power to make her other earthly ordinances stick?<br /><br />Indeed, which of the powers she claims does she actually have? And how can we know? Apparently not by having her leadership declare it to us, as demonstrated by excommunications they admit were not honored by Heaven.<br /><br />What if our temple rites are likewise not honored in Heaven? How can we know if they are, if our excommunications are admittedly not? What of our baptisms, our sacraments?<br /><br />Indeed, does this not call into question every aspect of what we are taught from the chief seats and lecterns?<br /><br /><i> 10 In the midst of this war of words and tumult of opinions, I often said to myself: What is to be done? Who of all these parties are right; or, are they all wrong together? If any one of them be right, which is it, and how shall I know it?<br /><br /> 11 While I was laboring under the extreme difficulties caused by the contests of these parties of religionists, I was one day reading the Epistle of James, first chapter and fifth verse, which reads: If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.</i>Jared Liveseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10309044282039536254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-41480693321211605842015-06-13T09:11:33.196-07:002015-06-13T09:11:33.196-07:00In fact, we may have affirmative reason to suppose...In fact, we may have affirmative reason to suppose the Church has lacked, from a very early time, the power to bind in heaven that done on earth with specific regards to excommunication, <a href="https://books.google.com/books?id=nG8tAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA441&lpg=PA441&dq=%22spirit+of+the+work%22+%22cut+off%22&source=bl&ots=SQ4PlepXZV&sig=wTh-W1NCVcmhftltFInBLnNsgDU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAGoVChMI67ry3oONxgIVg0mSCh0gIwBQ#v=onepage&q=%22spirit%20of%20the%20work%22%20%22cut%20off%22&f=false" rel="nofollow">by the Church's own admission</a>. Gileadi was a more recent case in point.<br /><br />God is therefore apparently not bound by the actions of the Church, as a matter of the Church's own historical record. But that doesn't matter to those who know nothing of the things of God, and who suppose that being "off the team" means one is a child of destruction. As Nibley points out, to them, all good consists of being on our "side," and all error consists of being not on our "side."<br /><br />Sometimes, lacking understanding in the things of God, those seeking to establish their power, and their greatness and glory, publish things they suppose support their position, but in reality fundamentally undermine it.<br /><br />I recall Greg Smith, in his execrable review of <i>Passing the Heavenly Gift</i> in The Mormon Interpreter, citing President Harold B. Lee against Snuffer to this effect: "I bear witness to you that those who hold the apostolic calling may, and do, know of the reality of the mission of the Lord. To know is to be born and quickened in the inner man." [Harold B. Lee, Stand Ye in Holy Places (Salt Lake City, Utah: Deseret Book Co., 1974), 64–65.]<br /><br />The Church uses this quote in her manuals, but omits "To know is to be born and quickened in the inner man." Why would they omit that?<br /><br />Because, properly understood, President Lee is saying nothing more than that the modern Apostles, <i>qua</i> Apostles, merely <i>may</i> have been born again, and that merely being born again constitutes <i>knowledge</i> of the mission of the Lord, and, by implication, being born again constitutes their "special" witness. And if they haven't been born again?<br /><br />And all that only has meaning to one who has been born again.Jared Liveseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10309044282039536254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-65473635954486879742015-06-13T08:36:30.389-07:002015-06-13T08:36:30.389-07:00It's interesting that Robin Hood brought up Gi...It's interesting that Robin Hood brought up Gileadi. He seemed to just be in the wrong place at the wrong time. What were his "apostate" teachings? Was his error knowing and understanding Isaiah, and articulating his views on it better than a prophet, seer, and revelator? The world may never know. The church just called it apostasy. How convenient. Why was Gileadi's excommunication "expunged" while all others remain "noted" on their "papers"?Irvenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17926122949198322768noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-33760412145766733512015-06-13T08:30:45.457-07:002015-06-13T08:30:45.457-07:00Continuing citation from Nibley:
You can swim in ...Continuing citation from Nibley:<br /><br />You can swim in the river, but how long can you resist the current? And how do you achieve unity in such a system? Not by persuasion, but simply by winning:<br /><br /><i> The emperor's formula for establishing perfect unity and loyalty in the church and the Empire was that plan which the clergy themselves constantly urged upon him and his successors, importunately demanding that he proscribe, banish, and anathematize whoever withheld allegiance from their particular parties. The Vita Constantini tells how the Emperor attempted to end each crisis by outlawing all opposition, thereby inevitably sowing the seeds of the next crisis. But how could one expect a simple soldier to question the proposition that compulsory loyalty is the secret of universal peace, when it was being pressed upon him by all the cleverest men of the age? "The barbarians reverence God, because they fear my power," he had declared, and everyone had applauded his doctrine of compulsory reverence.33<br /><br /> But it didn't work. No sooner had Constantine removed his last civil and military opponents than the issue between his Christian and pagan subjects became acute. No sooner had he "given profound peace and security to the Church" by restraining her pagan opponents than the churchmen started accusing each other of heresy with a wild abandon that surpassed—as the Emperor himself observed—any performance of the heathen.34 No sooner had his successors removed the last heretic and received the undying thanks of the church, than the true believers were at each others' throats. St. Ambrose notes that it is harder to make orthodox Christians live together in peace than it is to eliminate heretics.35 The problem was never solved, for the doctrine of absolute, one-package loyalty would allow no compromise.36</i><br /><br />Note from Log: Nibley is using the past as a parable for the present, and our future.Jared Liveseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10309044282039536254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-36176209232897845412015-06-13T08:26:30.979-07:002015-06-13T08:26:30.979-07:00Continuing citation from Nibley:
The insidio...Continuing citation from Nibley:<br /><br /><i> The insidious thing about such immoral conclusions is that they are quite logical. The cruelty of the times, says Alföldi, "cannot fully be explained by the corruption of the age; . . . the spirit of the fourth century has its part to play. The victory of abstract ways of thinking, the universal triumph of theory, knows no half-measures; punishment, like everything else, must be a hundred percent, but even this seems inadequate."27 Compromise is now out of the question: God, who once let his sun shine upon the just and the unjust, and let the wheat and tares grow together, now insists that the unjust should cease to exist, that only wheat should grow in the earth, and that only sheep should inhabit it.28 In all seriousness the Emperor Justinian announced to the churchmen his intention of forcing the devil himself to join the true church, and thus achieving in the world that perfect unity "which Pythagoras and Plato taught."29<br /><br /> We have just noted the use of absolutes in clerical polemic. The results were what might have been expected, but the ferocity of party conflict within the church as described by the writers of the fourth and fifth centuries exceeds the wildest imaginings. Even those men, St. Basil reports, who had fought the uphill fight for decency and striven conscientiously through the years to be just and fair with others, in the end found themselves forced to surrender and become just like the rest, who were all engaged in a frantic game of testing each other's loyalty.30 The result, he says, is that the Church is entirely leaderless, everyone wants to give orders, but no one will take them; the self-appointed have grabbed what they could and broken up the church in a spirit of such savage, unbridled hatred and universal mistrust that the only remaining principle of unity anywhere is a common desire to do harm: men will cooperate only where cooperation is the most effective means of doing injury to others.31 It was characteristic of the Age of Constantine, says Burckhardt, "that a man could be intensely devout and at the same time grossly immoral." [There was nothing contradictory in that—men had simply discarded personal integrity for a much easier group loyalty.] "Who can swim against the tide of custom?" cries Augustine.32</i>Jared Liveseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10309044282039536254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-39718184941784585112015-06-13T08:25:37.112-07:002015-06-13T08:25:37.112-07:00Continuing citation from Nibley:
It must be our s...Continuing citation from Nibley:<br /><br />It must be our side or nothing:<br /><br /><i> All virtue is comprised in the fact of membership in Our Group; all vice consists in not belonging.20 It can be shown by a most convenient syllogism that since God is on our side we cannot show any degree of toleration for any opposition without incurring infinite guilt.21 In the fourth century everybody was officiously rushing to the defense of God;22 but John Chrysostom's pious declaration that we must avenge insults to God while patiently bearing insults to ourselves is put in its proper rhetorical light by the assumption of Hilary that an insult to himself is an insult to God.23 Therein lies the great usefulness of the doctrine of guilt and innocence by association that became so popular in the fourth century: one does not need to quibble; there is no such thing as being partly wrong or merely mistaken; the painful virtue of forbearance and the labor of investigation no longer embarrass the champions of one-package loyalty. No matter how nobly and austerely heretics may live, for Augustine they are still Antichrist—all of them, equally and indiscriminately;24 their virtues are really vices, their virginity carnality, their reason unreason, their patience in persecution mere insolence; any cruelty shown them is not really cruelty but kindness.25 Chrysostom goes even further: the most grossly immoral atheist is actually better off than an upright believer who slips up on one point, since though both go to hell, the atheist has at least the satisfaction of having gratified his lust on earth. Why not? Is not heresy in any degree a crime against God? And is not any crime against God an infinite sin?26</i>Jared Liveseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10309044282039536254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-42509440150849563362015-06-13T08:24:37.110-07:002015-06-13T08:24:37.110-07:00Continuing citation from Nibley:
In this view it ...Continuing citation from Nibley:<br /><br />In this view it is always the others who are the bad guys.<br /><br /><i> Just as all obedient subjects are embraced in a single shining community, so all outsiders are necessarily members of a single conspiracy of evil, a pestilential congregation of vapors of such uniform defilement that none can be ever so slightly tinged with its complexion without being wholly involved in it corruption.18 A favorite passage with the churchmen of the period was that which declared that to err in the slightest point of the law is to break the whole law.19</i><br /><br />Note from Log: can you fail to see yourselves in these things?Jared Liveseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10309044282039536254noreply@blogger.com