tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post5471457796412511877..comments2024-03-26T21:27:42.278-07:00Comments on Pure Mormonism: When Mormons Take The Lord's Name In Vain -Part 1Alan Rock Watermanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comBlogger31125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-64929215335994182472013-08-30T14:57:25.077-07:002013-08-30T14:57:25.077-07:00There are two errors in your statement above. Firs...There are two errors in your statement above. First I am not opposed to Americans fighting for our own freedom. If not for the colonial army, we would still be colonies of Great Britain.<br /><br />I oppose the deception that these invasions of other countries have anything to do with defending American's rights or freedoms. They simply do not.<br /><br />Second, EVERY TIME America has intervened in the troubles of another country, it made things worse. Take World Wars I as an example. That war was at a stalemate, and all sides were in the process of negotiating "Deguerre Antebellum," a sort of understanding that everybody goes home, there is no victor, no defeated; everything simply goes back to the way it was before the war. Sort of a "let's just pretend this never happened."<br /><br />Hitler and Stalin were in the process of fighting it out between themselves when Churchill wanted in. (Churchill had proposed in 1935 that with the advance of air power, any war could be won from the sky in a day or two. He hungered to try his theory out.)<br /><br />America's entry into both these wars revitalized them. The result was millions more deaths than would have occurred had we butted out. <br /><br />George Washington knew what he was talking about when he told us the Old World would never stop fighting between themselves. It would be in our best interests to open our borders to those who are tired of living under tyranny, but never to side with the tyrants.Alan Rock Watermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-67886952434712068522013-08-01T08:02:34.171-07:002013-08-01T08:02:34.171-07:00wait, so you don't want the USA to fight for o...wait, so you don't want the USA to fight for our freedom anymore, but what about people in other countries...should anyone fight for their freedom? I know many of the countries our troops have entered did bring more freedom to the people there.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-49231466053940365752013-03-20T19:26:16.669-07:002013-03-20T19:26:16.669-07:00Noblenarccist,
You deserve to be aware that the qu...Noblenarccist,<br />You deserve to be aware that the quote you provide at 1:41 was attributed to Joseph Smith, but he denied authorship and made affidavit to that effect. It comes from a letter known as the "Essay on Happiness" and is often used to claim Joseph Smith used that sophistry to justify plural marriage.<br /><br />After the prophet's death, Brigham Young instructed the editors to doctor the official Church History, and that letter, which Joseph Smith believed was written by his enemy John C. Bennett, was included despite Joseph's clear disavowal of it when he was alive.Alan Rock Watermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-20779444566815807902013-03-19T16:00:06.504-07:002013-03-19T16:00:06.504-07:00First we have to prove that such statements, suppo...First we have to prove that such statements, supposedly from Joseph Smith or from the Bible, are actually true and really what that person said. <br /><br />There is a lot in the History of the Church that I believe is not true about what Joseph said, for he didn't publish those statements while he was alive. So we shouldn't assume it is really from him. Much could have, I believe was, changed or deleted or added to 'after Joseph died'.<br /><br />Also, the Bible is often translated incorrectly or actual wording could have been changed, deleted or added to, as the Joseph Smith translation shows happened alot. <br /><br />So we have to take everything the Bible says with a huge grain of salt and if it sounds 'fishy' like the statement above & so many other stories in the Bible, then we should not follow it or think it correct until Christ returns and clarifies it all for us.<br /><br />D&C 132 also cannot be proven to be from Joseph Smith and I do not believe it is, for it is contrary to what Joseph, Christ & ancient prophets preached.<br /><br />'Prove all things and only hold fast to that which (we know for sure) is true.'<br /><br />God never wants us to just trust, accept or follow something just because someone says it. even those who calls themselves a Prophet. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-12476536568016982522013-03-19T13:41:13.352-07:002013-03-19T13:41:13.352-07:00"...we cannot keep all the commandments witho..."...we cannot keep all the commandments without first knowing them, and we cannot expect to know all, or more than we now know unless we comply with or keep those we have already received. That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another.<br />"<strong>“God said, “Thou shalt not kill;” at another time He said “Thou shalt utterly destroy.”</strong> This is the principle on which the government of heaven is conducted—by revelation adapted to the circumstances in which the children of the kingdom are placed. Whatever God requires is right, no matter what it is, although we may not see the reason thereof till long after the events transpire."<br />(Joseph Smith, History of the Church 5:134)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-65274587013134724662013-03-19T13:26:02.510-07:002013-03-19T13:26:02.510-07:00"Will I accept of an offering, saith the Lord..."Will I accept of an offering, saith the Lord, that is not made in my name? <strong>Or will I receive at your hands that which I have not appointed?</strong> And will I appoint unto you, saith the Lord, except it be by law, even as I and my Father ordained unto you, before the world was?"<br />(D&C 132:9-11)<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-8517708165310413692013-03-19T13:17:08.410-07:002013-03-19T13:17:08.410-07:00The scriptural definition of taking the Lord's...The scriptural definition of taking the Lord's name in vain:<br /><br />"For behold, verily I say, that many there be who are under this condemnation, who use the name of the Lord, and use it in vain, <strong>having not authority</strong>."<br />(D&C 63:62)<br /><br />"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; <strong>but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven</strong>. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."<br />(Matthew 7:21-23)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-8827159090107251222012-07-29T11:23:16.771-07:002012-07-29T11:23:16.771-07:00Kristine,
I think the most distressing thing about...Kristine,<br />I think the most distressing thing about your cousin's diatribe against my article is that he was unable to give me credit for writing it. <br /><br />Too bad he didn't notice that this was merely Part One of a two part essay. Had he continued on to part two, he may have had most of his objections answered. What matters in warfare is not whether WE mortals think we're doing the right thing, what matters is the rules laid down by God regarding the rules of engagement. Those rules are simple:<br /><br />1. We have the right, duty, and obligation to repel invaders from our lands.<br /><br />2. We are not permitted to take our armies into the borders of another people's land.<br /><br />Your cousin does not seem to be aware that the southern soldiers who resisted the Yankees were not motivated by a desire to defend the institution of slavery. They were repelling an invading army that had crossed into their state's borders and were threatening their wives, children, and lands. Their fears were well grounded, as evidenced by Sherman's absolute merciless holocaust against the civilian population in his wake.<br /><br />For the first two years of the war, the south won EVERY SINGLE BATTLE. Then, General Lee marched the troops into a Northern state, Pennsylvania, and the tide turned dramatically against them. They were no longer fighting on the defensive; they had taken the war on the offensive, and whatever divine protection they had experienced heretofore suddenly vanished.<br /><br />Your cousin's example of Chamberlain's defense at Gettysburg makes my case. As a northerner, he was defending a northern stronghold against a southern invasion, and his side prevailed.<br /><br />Your cousin would do well to get his emotions under control, read a bit of actual history, and then seek God's word as to what situations make war justifiable, and what makes it an abomination.Alan Rock Watermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-77488743323541559982012-07-28T21:28:15.980-07:002012-07-28T21:28:15.980-07:00My mother was a righteous woman. Anyone who knew ...My mother was a righteous woman. Anyone who knew her could tell you that. My cousin who sent out this article could tell you that. When the news came out that George Bush number one had ordered an invasion of Panama, Mom said to me, “I always thought that America was a righteous enough country to not attack another nation unless we were attacked by them first”. The author of this “When Mormon’s Take the Name of the Lord in Vain” article must have the same line of thinking as my Mother. <br />But, when I asked my Mother about whether her reasoning meant that we should have not fought in VietNam, she said “Oh, but that was different because we were fighting against Communism”. When I asked Mom about our invasion of Italy during World War 2, she said “that was different too, BECAUSE WE WERE AT WAR”. My Mother was wonderful. She could process complicated issues because she always sought to understand them by breaking them down into her understanding of what is Right or Wrong.<br />But, the truth is that relationships between humans and nations of humans are often very complicated and are often mixed with things that are both good and evil. After all, according to Mr. Hitler, Poland attacked Germany (or German Kind) first and that was his justification for invading Poland. But, to the German people that made sense at the time and the invasion of Poland was an act of self defense. <br />OK I know. Hitler was an idiot. Yes we were justified in fighting on German soil if only for the Jewish plight. I could go on and on...<br />I could go on with this response for days. But, I have to go help clean up the bbq dinner that my town had today in honor of our pioneers. Gosh, the parade was good, but it had one of those shameful American retired Air Force officers in full UNIFORM (costume) as the Grand Marshall, so gosh I am afraid of God’s judgment. Oh NO!Kristinenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-40763487098058154142012-07-28T21:27:37.573-07:002012-07-28T21:27:37.573-07:00*Humans can be good and evil at the same time. W...*Humans can be good and evil at the same time. We can all fall ill to evil impulses. It is hard for us as humans to always do the right thing, and it can be harder for us to always know what is the right thing to do. But this is the way God intended it. We have our agency. God does not tell us every time what is justifiable and what is not. If he did, it wouldn’t be agency.<br />*War is bad. And, war is good. <br />*It is the purpose of the war that is either good or bad. Not the location. AND IN WAR, SOMETIMES NEITHER SIDE IS USUALLY QUITE SURE ONCE THE FIGHTING STARTS. <br />*Soldiers who fight are bound by their oath, this requires a commitment of honor.<br />*Honor is important. Even Boy Scouts know it. But the author doesn’t.<br />*Soldiers who fight to protect their righteous freedoms are justified. And, soldiers who fight for other people’s freedoms are even MORE justified by God. “No greater love hath any man than that he give his life for a friend”. (It’s in the Bible, look it up).<br />*Kings and Presidents and Kaisers and Emporers and Ceasars and Fuhrers and Tribal Chiefs have a heavy burden when deciding which war is good and which war is bad. And yes, I believe that they can be held accountable before God for bad decisions. It is always dangerous to make any leader angry because he might bite, or carry a stick, or drop a bomb on you, etc.<br />*There have always been tyrants. Snort was a tyrant. Tyrants are bad.<br />*War against Tyrants is good. War against tyranny is good. War against stupidity is not necessary but is sometimes so tempting, you might think it would be good. Joking.<br />*Yes, we Americans have made mistakes. Yes we can be arrogant, and stupid. <br />*Yes, we Americans may have fought battles and wars that with hind sight may not have been completely necessary, ie. Panama, Grenada (maybe), Mexico, Spain….. Well maybe those wars were necessary. It’s a tough call, I really thought Panama was going to attack! LOL.<br />*Wars (for example, the VietNam war) are often righteously fought on principle rather than imminent threat of attack by an evil empire. For example, the Viet Nam War, The Korean War, the Cold War, etc, were stands against the callous tyranny of communist expansion and as such was not only honorable but also justifiable. (I get really offended if someone says, that American soldiers who died in VietNam died in vain). But, whether God actually justifies any war, or any killing of any kind, I will leave up to God.<br />*The reasons for war (just like war itself) are often muddy, unclear, confusing, and hard to understand. But, it is important that we all look inward and at least try to make righteous judgment and try to use war only as a last resort.Kristinenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-17093912124717677712012-07-28T21:22:12.727-07:002012-07-28T21:22:12.727-07:00In the civil war both the South and the Union armi...In the civil war both the South and the Union armies attacked the other side’s lands. It’s funny but true that if you read between the lines, the author believes that it was the Southern side who was justified by God, because they were defending their lands and their RIGHTS as they believed them to be, especially the “right” to be slave holding independent states. The author proposes that the armies of Grant and Sherman who followed President Lincoln’s orders to attack the South were offending God, or “taking the Lord’s name in vain”. LOL….. LOL….LOL<br />I pause to cut and paste a paragraph from the Author’s article. Yawn. “According to numerous journals from that time, nearly every soldier on both sides of the Civil War believed with all his heart that he was acting as God's agent and with His blessings in that war. And some actually were, at least those who were truly defending their own lands. God does justify those who fight in defense of their own lands and freedoms.” There! I proved my point. Don’t laugh. The author really does think that the South was justified before God. <br />The author believes that because he or she once read a book by Sir Walter Scott who may have stretched the truth about the middle ages, that the world and especially Americans were duped by Scott into falling in love with costuming uniforms and vainly and uselessly fighting and dying for some false “honor and glory”. The author attests that any soldier in the civil war would have told you that the ONLY reason that they went to war was for personal honor and glory. How simple minded this author is. If the author believes that every Officer and Soldier on both sides didn’t understand that the future of America was at stake, dare I say it…. The author would be DEAD WRONG! The author believes that not only us Mormons and all Americans are stupid now, but the author believes that our ancestors who fought in the civil war (or any other war) were stupid too!<br />If you really think that men began glorifying uniforms and war with Sir Walter Scott, you must believe that the old Greeks, Romans, Samurai, Mongol, Vikings, Pharoah’s chariot armies, etc. weren’t human. The author doesn’t understand how NAÏVE their position is. Humans have ALWAYS glorified war and the costumes of war ever since Cain killed Able, or ever since Snort the cave man killed his brother because his brother had a foxier wife. (I threw Snort in to entertain the EWOGS, the Evolution WithOut God believers, EWOGS for short. I wouldn’t want to offend anyone’s religion. What, you’ve never heard of the Church of the EWOGS? It’s really great! You have no tithing, no meetings and you can screw over your neighbor, ALL GUILT FREE). But, I digress.<br />Now, let us get to the heart of the matter. Are American soldiers (or any other country’s soldiers) offending God by putting on their uniforms and serving their country? …..wait while I cut and paste…..”any young person who enlists in the United States military as it is presently constituted does so in direct defiance of the stated word of God,”. Of course not. What a pitiful statement. I am embarrassed that it was probably an American who wrote that. OK… I’ll say it……. A lousy and ungrateful American. My patriotic Mother would have said it. So I decided to say it. <br />I would like to make some points and I’ll bullet them in an effort to keep myself from yabbering on about this author’s naivety.Kristinenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-20040803713930422342012-07-28T21:20:56.652-07:002012-07-28T21:20:56.652-07:00Rock - I emailed this to my cousin and I got this ...Rock - I emailed this to my cousin and I got this response. Too much cognitive dissonance for me. Maybe you would like to address this. Thank you. And thank you for the beautiful article. He is soooo angry that I don't believe any response right now would be helpful. I am praying for him...<br />A Response to- “When Mormon’s Take the Name of God in Vain”<br />I don’t know who wrote the article. My cousin sent it to me. This is wrong in so many ways that I have to respond. I don’t think my cousin wrote the article but I don’t see any other names. I don’t think the author wants to be identified. I wouldn’t either.<br />The article is partly correct about the crusades and the middle ages and about how human kind have a love affair about every other generation with warfare and uniforms. (Hitler and his SS Boy’s sure looked pretty didn’t they?) The article purveys such a kind of “I am smarter than the rest of you sheep” sense of self-indulging hypocrisy that I just have to respond. This person who wrote the article is either really and truly self-engorged with their own pittance of knowledge or they choose to be blind to historical fact. The author bends so many truths to make themselves sound honest that it is either embarrassing or comical. <br />The article’s title is “When Mormon’s Take the Name of God in Vain”, but only mentions Mormons in a passing manner. The real intent of the article is to tell us dumb and inferior but self-righteous Americans that our young men and women offend God when putting on a military uniform. How insulting can a fellow American be? Not only is insulting to Americans, but to all other nations regardless of side who fought in any way in any war since the American Revolutionary War. The author graciously (say graciously sarcastically, it’s a lot more fun) admits that those soldiers who fought on their own country’s soil were justified by God. Comically, the author even makes a point to single out the American civil war saying that those who were defending “their own lands” were justified and the other side then would obviously not be justified. I can’t help but laugh out loud. Oh come on Mr. or Mrs. Author! WHICH SIDE WAS IT THAT FOUGHT ONLY ON THEIR OWN LANDS? ARE YOU REALLY SAYING THAT IF YOU CROSSED YOUR STATE’S BORDER IN THE CIVIL WAR YOU ARE GOING TO BE PUNISHED BY GOD FOR CROSSING ANY BORDER? Poor Lieutanant Chamberlain, Medal of Honor winner at Gettysburg, PENNSYLVANIA…. The poor guy. He was a school teacher from MAINE. Oh NO!Kristinenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-67358928199672539922011-07-22T13:58:11.597-07:002011-07-22T13:58:11.597-07:00Yay! Thanks for that, Dave. It's a humdinger.Yay! Thanks for that, Dave. It's a humdinger.Alan Rock Watermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-26783476357965552822011-07-22T09:56:21.164-07:002011-07-22T09:56:21.164-07:00I found it! I finally found that statement again t...I found it! I finally found that statement again thanks to a recent post at LDSApostasy!<br /><br />Joseph Smith Jr. gave this warning to the members of the Church: “One great evil is that men … imagine that when there is any thing like power, revelation, or vision manifested that it must be of God. … Nothing is a greater injury to the children of men than to be under the influence of a false spirit, when they think they have the spirit of God. … The world always mistook false prophets for true ones.” He further stated that we can know a manifestation is false by it “contradicting a former revelation.” (“Try the Spirits,” Times and Seasons, vol. 3, no. 11, edited by Joseph Smith [Nauvoo, Hancock County, Illinois: Published by Joseph Smith, 1 Apr. 1842], pp. 744, 747.)Dave P.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-33398563019614235552011-04-21T11:34:29.513-07:002011-04-21T11:34:29.513-07:00Thanks for checking anyway!Thanks for checking anyway!Jennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-65220515747090958992011-04-20T21:15:28.871-07:002011-04-20T21:15:28.871-07:00Sadly I checked the online version of the manual a...Sadly I checked the online version of the manual and couldn't find the quote. I'm thinking I had the book wrong because the statement is indeed something that he would have said in the Kirtland days.Dave P.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-50939467969963062472011-04-20T17:05:08.055-07:002011-04-20T17:05:08.055-07:00How about it Dave? Can you find the quote? Or the...How about it Dave? Can you find the quote? Or the manual? I'll check the index of Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith and see if I find it.Alan Rock Watermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-49882059228212750292011-04-20T12:59:47.959-07:002011-04-20T12:59:47.959-07:00Alan,
Did you ever find that quote? I would be i...Alan,<br /><br />Did you ever find that quote? I would be interested if you did.Jennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-69768781337215438402010-01-01T14:46:23.013-08:002010-01-01T14:46:23.013-08:00Thanks Dave, I have that manual somewhere; I'l...Thanks Dave, I have that manual somewhere; I'll have to comb through it.Alan Rock Watermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-84274455429506271612010-01-01T10:54:07.557-08:002010-01-01T10:54:07.557-08:00I know it can be found in the student manual for D...I know it can be found in the student manual for Doctrine and Covenants that my class in college used and it can be found in the details of one of the many early sections wherein the Lord reveals and reminds the saints that only Joseph was entitled to receive revelation for the whole church.<br /><br />The problem is, I can't find my actual copy, but this is what it looks like: http://www.byubookstore.com/ePOS?store=439&item_number=6-0161-1513-4&form=shared3%2fgm%2fdetail.html&design=439Dave P.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-8815585556003943682009-12-31T22:04:31.054-08:002009-12-31T22:04:31.054-08:00Dave, can you find me that precise quote? Sounds ...Dave, can you find me that precise quote? Sounds like a useful one.<br /><br />Thanks,<br />RockRock Watermannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-79204565061574459452009-12-31T11:34:08.287-08:002009-12-31T11:34:08.287-08:00TruthSeeker,
Thanks for your kind words. In addi...TruthSeeker,<br /><br />Thanks for your kind words. In addition to what you said, I paraphrase Joseph Smith's statement of, "The most dangerous situation a man can find himself in is when he believes he is filled with the spirit of the Lord when, in reality, he is not."Dave P.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-47313269725757639332009-12-31T08:26:02.786-08:002009-12-31T08:26:02.786-08:00There are many, many murders going on in Iraq and ...There are many, many murders going on in Iraq and Afghanistan, as no one can deny who has watched any of the testimonies linked to at the end of Part 2. <br /><br />These men are not discussing accidental deaths, although there are plenty of these. They are talking about their participation in deliberate, calculated murder of innocents.Rock Watermannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-58830857003519223292009-12-30T23:45:13.266-08:002009-12-30T23:45:13.266-08:00I never fail to be surprised and deeply saddened a...I never fail to be surprised and deeply saddened at the lengths my fellow Brothers and Sisters will go to, to protect the "church", and their "fixed beliefs". Throughout our history, we have done and said shameful things and the disinformation marches (sadly) on.<br /><br />What will it take for us to stop judging one another? When will any of the "anonymous-es" in this world realize the damage that many of them do? Dave P., Urban Coda and Issac Stanfield as well as Brother Waterman stand up for the light of truth- no matter how hard it may be to hear or bear. You are very brave men in my book!<br /><br />I clicked on every, VERY hard to watch link in parts 1 and 2 of "when Mormons Take the Lord's Name In Vain"? Did you?! If you had, you would not still be so high minded, I believe. For years, I was like you...out of fear. It takes courage to change a fixed belief- even if it is false!<br /> <br />NEVER, do those such as anonymous and others who have commented on previous blog entries; EVER when asked to give scriptural or doctrinal backing and answer SIMPLE questions to back up what they say, do so! It is, I am sorry to say- very cowardly indeed to throw out empty insults and cruel words! This reminds me of the playground, at school, where bullies would say unfounded and cruel lies. They got away with it too- because they were bigger and louder. You can not shout down the truth so easily now.<br /><br />It is easy indeed to besmirch the character of those who are brave enough to STAND for truth. Too easy. I pray to God that when I am judged at the merciful seat of God- I will be able to say that I was a TRUTHFUL truth seeker, not someone who skated through life with blinders on, spouting talking points, platitudes...and worse having shouted "All is well"! When it was most certainly not.<br /><br />Please- be brave, before it is too late...FOR US ALL! Open your eyes. LISTEN. LEARN! STAND!TruthSeekernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-43441379122339820952009-12-29T09:45:45.183-08:002009-12-29T09:45:45.183-08:00Anonymous,
Please don't forget to include scri...Anonymous,<br />Please don't forget to include scriptural references in your argument as well. Don't forget that the Pharisees first resorted to name-calling against the Savior after He preached against their false doctrine by referring to scripture with each point.<br /><br />That seems to be the pattern throughout time. People, usually proud people, who can't win a legitimate debate resort to personal attacks against the messenger. The sad thing is they work all too well in this day and age because people who speak out against the welfare state are branded racists while those who speak out against the crimes committed by Israel as anti-semitic. Many good people have lost careers simply because of those accusations.Dave P.noreply@blogger.com