tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post4470532849945665149..comments2024-03-28T15:23:18.071-07:00Comments on Pure Mormonism: My Testimony Of The ChurchAlan Rock Watermanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comBlogger182125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-77188615516706640332014-10-06T21:35:40.008-07:002014-10-06T21:35:40.008-07:00Sorry about my "slurred speech" in that ...Sorry about my "slurred speech" in that comment. Its really just my fat fingers on this tiny phone.Rebecca C.https://www.blogger.com/profile/18432808721237230481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-85270454710742057202014-10-06T21:33:31.778-07:002014-10-06T21:33:31.778-07:00I've thought bout the free masons bit quite a ...I've thought bout the free masons bit quite a bit as that was one of the early obstacles i overcame when i first realized there were problems in the church and i was trying to figure out what they were and who was making them. Joseph was a free mason. Again, take it in the context of that time, not what it might mean today. As a layperson, not an expert, i also realize that a lot of the masonry stuff was actually came down from solomons temple, so may have really been instituted by god back then. It makes sense to me that there would be similarities among them, and that free masoney was something joseph was ok to belong to perhaps. It was something i overcame doubts on, and so all of the details i knew back then are a little fuzzy to me mow because it hasnt been a concern to me since then. I dont think its been a good idea to be a free mason for quite a while since then, though. I wonder which modern church leaders are members.Rebecca C.https://www.blogger.com/profile/18432808721237230481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-43698918487113315802014-10-06T21:01:46.550-07:002014-10-06T21:01:46.550-07:00Liz, I'm in the exact same boat. I have only m...Liz, I'm in the exact same boat. I have only missed a week here or there, mostly because i am worried about what others will think. I dont really want to stop going to church as i like the ward, but it is getting really uncomfortable to hear things i know are baloney and not scriptoral. I dont know what to do. Dont get me started about renewing my recommend. I believe i am worthy. But the questions they ask are something else. I dont want to be dishonest. I apparently associate with apostates in their opinion, not my opinion or the scriptures definition though. Ugh its hard.Rebecca C.https://www.blogger.com/profile/18432808721237230481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-14604844719833721982014-02-09T19:09:58.263-08:002014-02-09T19:09:58.263-08:00Love testimonies. Nice blog. I'm just checking...Love testimonies. Nice blog. I'm just checking out the LDS blogs to see what is out there. I recently started my own art site to hilight some of my favorite <a href="http://christianartwork.net/" rel="nofollow"> Christian Art and Artists</a>.Willhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01238808396123477403noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-72006070596447708342014-01-07T10:04:15.095-08:002014-01-07T10:04:15.095-08:00Heck, I thought HF stood for Hell Fire, when I rea...Heck, I thought HF stood for Hell Fire, when I read the post with the link about hell.Toninoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-57514126165634780492013-08-30T14:12:52.181-07:002013-08-30T14:12:52.181-07:00Personally, I've never found it necessary to l...Personally, I've never found it necessary to let the grammar of Moroni 10:5 get me tied up in knots. Let's remember that this is a translation of Moroni's words, and in the 19 century, (and continuing into our day in many instances) it was a common rhetorical device to ask the question in this way: "Is that not true?"<br><br>I saw it a lot in transcripts of cases, particularly during cross examination. "You admit that you were standing at the dock at midnight of the night in question, is that not true?"<br><br>I recall asking my seminary teacher about Jacob's use of the french word "adieu" at the end of the book of Jacob. How could it be that Jacob used a french word? Well, of course, Jacob didn't write "adieu," Joseph used that word to translate whatever reformed Egyptian word Jacob had put there.<br><br>At the time of Joseph Smith, French fashion was all the rages in America, including the use of some french idioms like "adieu." Note Emma Smith's ringlets in the famous painting she and Joseph posed for. For that matter, even today most latter-day Saints believe Joseph Smith actually went around all the time with those brushed wings of hair jutting forward from his temple. I see artists renditions that have him wearing that style even when laboring out of doors. That's become the look. But it was just a style he wore for the portrait, same as many Americans were doing at the time. It was copied from Napoleon. <br><br>Anyway, where was I? Oh yeah, talking about "is it not true?"<br><br>It's just a frontier manner of speaking, folks. I wouldn't try to parse it too much.Alan Rock Watermanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-19639546150354205862013-08-26T18:07:54.006-07:002013-08-26T18:07:54.006-07:00Another great link from Gary Hunt.Thanks, Gary, fo...Another great link from Gary Hunt.<br><br>Thanks, Gary, for pointing me to this stuff.Alan Rock Watermanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-72019030303468140202013-08-26T18:01:31.083-07:002013-08-26T18:01:31.083-07:00Thank you, Annalea. Happy to hear from you.Thank you, Annalea. Happy to hear from you.Alan Rock Watermanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-15520349645087197562013-08-26T09:30:24.686-07:002013-08-26T09:30:24.686-07:00Commander Gidgiddoni and LDSDPer,I agree, Elder Ma...Commander Gidgiddoni and LDSDPer,<br><br>I agree, Elder Maxwells quote is a good. It reminded me of a great essay (short book) written by Étienne de La Boétie (1530–1563).<br><br>"The Politics of Obedience: The Discourse of Voluntary Servitude" <br><br>You can find it in PDF format at the following address:<br><br>https://mises.org/document/1218/The-Politics-of-Obedience-The-Discourse-of-Voluntary-Servitude<br><br>Gary Huntnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-36220836895395360562013-08-26T07:38:05.274-07:002013-08-26T07:38:05.274-07:00I don't know Denver Snuffer. I read a few thi...I don't know Denver Snuffer. I read a few things off his blog, and I found it mostly agreeable.<br><br>I haven't purchased his books. I am always wary of groups of followers, even in the church, so I wouldn't participate in that, even if the person speaking/teaching were saying reasonable things.<br><br>So, how do I justify reading Mormon blogs, such as Rock's?<br><br>I'm not sitting in a group of people; I don't know any of you, haven't met any of you. I either agree or disagree--<br><br>it doesn't feel as though there is a cult leader, even though many of us appreciate the time and work that Rock puts into pulling information together to help *us* all try to understand what is happening in the church today--<br><br>I have had similar feelings/thoughts for decades, and it's nice to know I'm not alone.<br><br>BUT, when a person puts 'himself' out there in person--<br><br>with a 'following', meeting in 'venues' around the area--<br><br>and gathering a group of obvious followers, then that becomes a threat to the 'powers that be', whether those PTB be justified in feeling threatened or not.<br><br>He is obvious; he can be located--<br><br>I'm not saying that it's wrong to put yourself 'out there'--<br><br>it's a personal choice, though, and it's not what everyone feels he/she should do.<br><br>Frankly, I've been managing to avoid being excommunicated for decades already, and it has taken work--<br><br>I know that some SPs appear to be ecclesiastical thugs (sorry; hard word)--who are eager to separate out anyone who doesn't appear to be meek and mild and conforming--<br><br>maybe there is a movement afoot to get rid of those who have ideas or even inspiration--<br><br>which is a sad, bad thought, but maybe it's true--<br><br>would Denver have done more good if he hadn't published the books and drawn the huge crowds? Maybe; I don't know. It's his choice.<br><br>But I can say that I feel strongly that I need to fight in a different way. I need to fight to stay in--<br><br>I'm not going to make it so easy for them to 'catch' me--<br><br>I keep my mouth shut, except on places like this blog--<br><br>I'm not going to let *them* push me out--<br><br>I'm sorry about what is happening to Denver Snuffer. The SP sounds very patronizing, and I couldn't help but think about the Sunstone article on passive aggression that Rob put on his blog a while back. There's a lot of food for thought in that--<br><br>this man is treating Denver in a way that sounds falsely friendly--<br><br>while really being a menace to him. There's something malignant in that--<br><br>LDSDPernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-14241033983101695022013-08-26T07:28:37.621-07:002013-08-26T07:28:37.621-07:00@Commander Gidgiddoni--that's an amazing quote...@Commander Gidgiddoni--<br><br>that's an amazing quote from Maxwell, but I daresay he was referring to the American culture, rather than to the church. Hard to say, though--<br><br>LDSDPernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-30107356985444907032013-08-25T15:19:34.000-07:002013-08-25T15:19:34.000-07:00Hi,When I think of the abuses of power that the mo...Hi,<br><br>When I think of the abuses of power that the modern day corporate church exhibits, we are worse off than the relationship between rulers and followers that the Lamanites had:<br><br>Mosiah 20:25<br><br>And it came to pass that they followed the king, and went forth without arms to meet the Lamanites. And it came to pass that they did meet the Lamanites; and the king of the Lamanites did bow himself down before them, and did plead in behalf of the people of Limhi.<br><br>Notice how the king bowed and plead before his people. This would never happen in the corporate church today.<br><br>I really like this quote from Neal A. Maxwell:<br><br>"For what happens in cultural decline both leaders and followers are really accountable. Historically, of course, it is easy to criticize bad leaders, but we should not give followers a free pass. Otherwise, in their rationalization of their degeneration they may say they were just following orders, while the leader was just ordering followers!"Commander Gidgiddoninoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-68742899015362773972013-08-24T00:56:38.894-07:002013-08-24T00:56:38.894-07:00Be of good cheer; as you have doubtless discovered...Be of good cheer; as you have doubtless discovered, that post is back up. Apparently while I was amending it, it got bumped to an unreadable draft mode.Alan Rock Watermanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-91357584917105799512013-08-24T00:36:36.886-07:002013-08-24T00:36:36.886-07:00Rock, I'm a new commenter, but have been readi...Rock, I'm a new commenter, but have been reading for a while. I'm so glad to hear you're feeling better. I've been troubled by Denver's news today, and reading this post was welcome balm to my soul.<br><br>Keep up the good work. I sure have benefitted from it. :)Annaleahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12964274663555911996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-67070336519229227562013-08-23T15:24:44.609-07:002013-08-23T15:24:44.609-07:00Yes, I wondered, too; I was hoping for an update o...Yes, I wondered, too; I was hoping for an update on Rock's health as well--<br><br>hope all is well with the Watermans--<br><br>:(<br><br>LDSDPernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-47433487204597523782013-08-23T14:13:58.188-07:002013-08-23T14:13:58.188-07:00What happened to the Circling The Wagons post? I ...What happened to the Circling The Wagons post? I was looking forward to updates on how we can help, and how the family from Australia is doing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-6570291019389726262013-08-21T14:16:33.833-07:002013-08-21T14:16:33.833-07:00The above comments is for Anon 23.The above comments is for Anon 23.Gary Huntnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-47201700561851802852013-08-21T12:50:16.577-07:002013-08-21T12:50:16.577-07:00Rob?The one who doesn't hate me--LOL!Is this y...Rob?<br><br>The one who doesn't hate me--LOL!<br><br>Is this your blog?<br><br>http://upwardthought.blogspot.com/2013/08/then-and-now-feigned-friendliness.html<br><br>That Sunstone article is amazing, and I thank you for giving access to it--<br><br>Sunstone has always been a bit above my notice for some reason, but there are some very interesting things in that article; timely.<br><br><br>Thanks!<br><br>I can't comment; I don't have a google account or a website; I have tried (to get the google account; I'm not very good with technical stuff)--<br><br>I was surprised there were no other comments; maybe everyone else has the same problem I do--<br><br>LDSDPernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-47813097822165400182013-08-21T10:15:11.736-07:002013-08-21T10:15:11.736-07:00Anon,I work in a field where I have to research an...Anon,<br><br>I work in a field where I have to research and document what I say and do every day. If I don't I can get into big trouble. Also, I did not ask to to document everthing you say. Just your bold declarations. A few examples:<br><br>1. Remarriage after a spouse has died.<br>2. Men are to blame for most divorces.<br>3. Almost all men are immoral - their wife will save them.<br>4. Men are more abusive than women.<br><br>I have not read these things in the scriptures or from true prophets. All the research and study I have done over the years, regarding these subjects, refutes your contentions, in which you paint the picture that (for the most part) men are evil abusers and women are innocent victims. Maybe in your own little corner of the world you have experienced and/or seen what you claim. However, I know men who claim the opposite. The reality is that abuse is pretty much evenly divided between the sexes.Gary Huntnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-9195289581166764712013-08-20T12:04:36.731-07:002013-08-20T12:04:36.731-07:00The encouragement to 'be of good cheer' is...The encouragement to 'be of good cheer' is how I see Christ telling people to have 'hope' and try to look at the bright side, precisely because of the 'doom & gloom' that they are in. <br><br>I believe that is a far cry from focusing on having 'fun', though again, there is nothing wrong with having fun. I just think Christ's message was more about 'hope' than 'fun'.<br><br>I don't think we have to belabor this any longer, suffice it to say we see things differently.<br><br>And yes, we are commanded to watch for the doom & gloom others might be in, more specifically, watch for how they may be suffering, and try to relieve that suffering or share their burdens. Plus we are to watch for evil, in ourselves and others to protect ourselves from falling for it. <br><br>I believe it is not enough to just be 'aware' of evil or suffering, we must be watching for it & trying to do something about it.Anon 23noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-67105711193022758582013-08-20T10:59:35.880-07:002013-08-20T10:59:35.880-07:00Gary, You seem to not realize how much time it tak...Gary, <br><br>You seem to not realize how much time it takes to go back and reference everything a person says.<br><br>It took me years to come to the conclusions I have, and I am still learning and changing my views. I did not however, document everything I ever read that effected my views. I think few ever would do such. <br><br>So, if I happen to remember or know where I learned something of which I believe, I will try to give you a reference or two, if you have a specific question about something. <br><br>There is no way I can document or back up everything I say or believe, neither could you. Many things I have learned through the Spirit, and it's all mixed in with what I learned while studying prophets words.Anon 23noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-35451278003746147822013-08-20T08:54:45.604-07:002013-08-20T08:54:45.604-07:00Anon 23,We are not commanded to just look at the g...Anon 23,<br><br>We are not commanded to just look at the gloom and doom. Be aware of it, yes. <br><br>Mark 6:50<br><br>50 For they all saw him, and were troubled. And immediately he talked with them, and saith unto them, Be of good cheer: it is I; be not afraid.<br><br><br>Matthew 14:27<br><br>27 But straightway Jesus spake unto them, saying, Be of good cheer; it is I; be not afraid.<br><br><br>Acts 27:22<br><br>22 And now I exhort you to be of good cheer: for there shall be no loss of any man’s life among you, but of the ship.<br><br><br>Acts 27:25<br><br>25 Wherefore, sirs, be of good cheer: for I believe God, that it shall be even as it was told me.<br><br><br>Acts 27:36<br><br>36 Then were they all of good cheer, and they also took some meat.<br><br><br>Matthew 9:2<br><br>2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.<br><br><br>Acts 23:11<br><br>11 And the night following the Lord stood by him, and said, Be of good cheer, Paul: for as thou hast testified of me in Jerusalem, so must thou bear witness also at Rome.<br><br><br>Doctrine and Covenants 78:18<br><br>18 And ye cannot bear all things now; nevertheless, be of good cheer, for I will lead you along. The kingdom is yours and the blessings thereof are yours, and the riches of eternity are yours.<br><br><br>Doctrine and Covenants 112:4<br><br>4 Let thy heart be of good cheer before my face; and thou shalt bear record of my name, not only unto the Gentiles, but also unto the Jews; and thou shalt send forth my word unto the ends of the earth.<br><br><br>John 16:33<br><br>33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.<br><br><br>Doctrine and Covenants 61:36<br><br>36 And now, verily I say unto you, and what I say unto one I say unto all, be of good cheer, little children; for I am in your midst, and I have not forsaken you;<br><br><br>Doctrine and Covenants 68:6<br><br>6 Wherefore, be of good cheer, and do not fear, for I the Lord am with you, and will stand by you; and ye shall bear record of me, even Jesus Christ, that I am the Son of the living God, that I was, that I am, and that I am to come.<br><br><br>3 Nephi 1:13<br><br>13 Lift up your head and be of good cheer; for behold, the time is at hand, and on this night shall the sign be given, and on the morrow come I into the world, to show unto the world that I will fulfil all that which I have caused to be spoken by the mouth of my holy prophets.<br><br><br>John 16:33<br><br>33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.<br><br><br>Doctrine and Covenants 61:36<br><br>36 And now, verily I say unto you, and what I say unto one I say unto all, be of good cheer, little children; for I am in your midst, and I have not forsaken you;<br><br><br>Doctrine and Covenants 68:6<br><br>6 Wherefore, be of good cheer, and do not fear, for I the Lord am with you, and will stand by you; and ye shall bear record of me, even Jesus Christ, that I am the Son of the living God, that I was, that I am, and that I am to come.<br><br><br>3 Nephi 1:13<br><br>13 Lift up your head and be of good cheer; for behold, the time is at hand, and on this night shall the sign be given, and on the morrow come I into the world, to show unto the world that I will fulfil all that which I have caused to be spoken by the mouth of my holy prophets.<br><br>2 Nephi 2:25<br><br>25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.<br><br>I could go on.Gary Huntnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-18830099467214633462013-08-20T08:42:52.633-07:002013-08-20T08:42:52.633-07:00Amom 23,The responsibility for providing evidence ...Amom 23,<br><br>The responsibility for providing evidence rests upon the person making the claim. <br><br>Person 'A' could make something up in their mind and claim that it is true, to person 'B'. Person 'B' asks person 'A' for evidence of their claim. Person 'A' says to person'B', "you need to do your own homework to discover what I worked so hard to discover." <br><br>Obviously person 'B' could spend the rest of their life trying to verify if what person 'A' said is true and never find it.Gary Huntnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-38042818210156069642013-08-19T18:45:42.033-07:002013-08-19T18:45:42.033-07:00Yes, thank you so much for not including me in tha...Yes, thank you so much for not including me in that yucky hugathon! <br><br>I've just read everything that was written below my own offering, and I do have a question.<br><br>Over and over I have heard two basic statements being made in this discussion: (1) following all of the commandments will get me to the highest Heaven; (2) the commandments mean little if they are obeyed as rote, and what gives them their authority is what it is that flavors the obedience to them, namely love, and love alone.<br><br>Jesus had some angry things to say to the Pharasies (no spell-check at the moment) because they hedged up the law, made it an institution unto itself, but did not understand what made it pleasing unto Father, namely because they had made it into a duty, and not a service for others. Is it not the reason for the discussion the fact that one side is perceiving in the arguments of the first a Pharasiac tenor, which they, even as Christ did, desire to correct, and even condemn? I think so, anyway. <br><br>Remember that all of the commandments are mere manifestations of the the first and greatest two laws, of which you are all aware. <br><br>There. Now no hugging please. PLEASE!<br><br><br>Steven Lesterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01285355643172321289noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-3612552992748839452013-08-19T17:11:55.694-07:002013-08-19T17:11:55.694-07:00Ok, I take that back. Maybe we do need to be perfe...Ok, I take that back. Maybe we do need to be perfect, I don't know for sure. For Christ commanded us to be perfect, just like him. Did he mean in this life? or we won't make it? I'm not sure.<br><br>It appears Joseph Smith believed we won't be able to sit down with the Holy Prophets in the same heaven unless we were as good as them.<br><br>So I don't know, I guess all we can do is keep striving for perfection and trying to possess Christlike perfect love.Anon 23noreply@blogger.com