tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post3911777289734373743..comments2024-03-13T12:52:19.391-07:00Comments on Pure Mormonism: My Testimony Of The ChurchAlan Rock Watermanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comBlogger188125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-43886421176386982592015-01-12T23:49:28.587-08:002015-01-12T23:49:28.587-08:00Hey Rock, I've been feeling this way about the...Hey Rock, I've been feeling this way about the "Magisterium" and first came across Gina Colvin's blog which eventually led to yours and a few others.<br />It's soooo crazy whats going on, how my eyes have been opened and how much closer to the Lord I feel than when I was trusting in the arm of flesh.<br />You are a breath of fresh air and have helped point me to Christ.<br />I love the new understanding on what it means to be a 'mormon', a member of the church (community) of Christ that is now before me.<br />You are the man!<br />Keep up the good work, we need many more like you sharing the message of the Restoration!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08005878453522631361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-7511478431462269072014-11-24T18:52:12.357-08:002014-11-24T18:52:12.357-08:00A perfect example is the one mentioned by MrHFMetz...A perfect example is the one mentioned by MrHFMetz above: 2 Nephi 28.Alan Rock Watermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-78037006156191012142014-11-24T18:51:16.945-08:002014-11-24T18:51:16.945-08:00Craig,
As a matter of fact, a year or two ago I w...Craig, <br />As a matter of fact, a year or two ago I wrote a draft of a post drawing from Eric Hoffer's "The True Believer", but in reviewing it I didn't feel it quite "worked." I may take it up again in the future and see how it goes.<br /><br />Sometimes I'll write something and afterwards realize I simply wasn't inspired when I wrote it. That was the conclusion I came to with that one. It wasn't the topic; the topic of the True Believer who follows the cult of personality is a valid topic. I just didn't have the spirit when I put that particular piece together.<br /><br />As for Mormon 8, I've referenced it a time or two, but of course if I had included every appropriate scripture in this piece it could have gone on forever. The Book of Mormon is chock full of warnings to the church in our day. Take your pick, right?Alan Rock Watermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-70147254507403273552014-11-24T10:06:26.140-08:002014-11-24T10:06:26.140-08:00I was surprised you never quoted this scripture:
...I was surprised you never quoted this scripture:<br /><br />Mormon 8:28<br />Yea, it shall come in a day when the power of God shall be denied, and churches become defiled and be lifted up in the pride of their hearts; yea, even in a day when leaders of churches and teachers shall rise in the pride of their hearts, even to the envying of them who belong to their churches.<br /><br />Also, an instructive book is "True Believer" by Eric Hoffer. He describes what happens to mass movements over time and much of it applies to the Church. It might make a good blog post.Craignoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-68326822442300245562014-11-23T13:55:07.677-08:002014-11-23T13:55:07.677-08:00I suppose this blog will not be appreciated so muc...I suppose this blog will not be appreciated so much by the "Brethren".<br />Any way, I read in the text that "there is something implanted deep in our DNA which triggers the desire to worship something or someone" and that even "members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are not immune to this pull toward idol worship , and end up elevating their so-called "leaders" to the status of demigods". <br />That may be so, but in general I think we should also be aware of a mechanism that is working from within. The adversary, in his effort to take control of the minds of the people and to take away their free agency -which was his intention from before the world was organised- has tried to come up with this doctrine that the "prophet"can not be led astray and that we consequently are obliged to follow. <br />Today we see more and more -also through the spreading of knowledge on the internet- that this regime is not to be tolerated and must be exposed as a fraud.<br />We should read 2Nephi 28 where it says that the devil is trying to carefully lead us away; this chapter was written for the latter day saints in our time.<br /><br /><br />R. Metzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15875261161185193692noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-48386446885286079802014-09-02T20:20:13.404-07:002014-09-02T20:20:13.404-07:00Kathy,
I can almost visualize hundreds of my frien...Kathy,<br />I can almost visualize hundreds of my friends reading your comment above and saying "Honey, we have to move to South Carolina!"<br /><br />I wonder if you realize how absolutely unique your ward is among the many in the church. It doesn't sound at all like your leadership acts as though your ward is just a franchise of the corporation. Your ward sounds like the many that were left to continue in the Plains states after the other half of the Saints went to Utah. For decades after (until most of them later gathered under the umbrella of the Reorganized Church) branches continued to operate with the kind of autonomy God had intended.<br /><br />Alan Rock Watermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-50585849060080614272014-09-02T17:34:42.048-07:002014-09-02T17:34:42.048-07:00I fell across your article on the mounds at Cahoki...I fell across your article on the mounds at Cahokia, and was intrigued by your blog. I started with your blog on the testimony of the church.Thank you for the clarity and history. As a convert in South Carolina of three years but a believer in the Book of Mormon for 40 years, I can recognize the blessings of my ward. We are assigned a topic for meetings, but encouraged to think and share what it means to us. We have our structure, but no one demonstrates a feeling they are above or below anyone else. We step in and out of callings as they come. I've always felt comfortable asking any question and discussing the answer openly. No one expects blind acceptance and encourages research and study. No human organization is perfect; this is as close to my vision of a church as I can find after years of trying denomination after denomination and many religions. I look forward to exploring more of your blog for a frank, rational exploration of many subjects. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-32379449011965176492014-07-28T08:31:47.032-07:002014-07-28T08:31:47.032-07:00PM,
Why do we need prophets? Christ came and ga...PM, <br /><br />Why do we need prophets? Christ came and gave his whole Gospel to the world, it has ever been available for anyone to read and follow and become prophets themselves. If we aren't studying and following Christ we wouldn't listen to any true prophet anyway. <br /><br />Christ commanded us all to be his disciples and prophets, we do not need any other men, prophets or leaders to tell us what to do or to take our tithing money from us and distribute it for us, we can and should give our tithing to the poor ourselves, as Christ taught us to, so we make sure it really gets to those in need and not into the pockets of false prophets. <br /><br />Where is there in all the world a man who is trustworthy enough to give our sacred tithing to anyway? I have never known of one. I have been duped like all of us to give my tithing to false prophets, but no more, Christ told us to give it to the poor and fatherless ourselves. And of course the poor are never meant to be tithed, but false prophets, like those who lead the LDS Church, always exact tithing from even the poor, to make them more dependent on the leaders control. <br /><br />Would God that all men should be prophets. No one needs a prophet, though they are wonderful to know if one comes around (and you may know one and not realize it among your family and friends), but we have all the instruction and doctrine we need right in the New Testament, straight from Christ. Just read and follow that and you will be come a prophet.<br /><br />It takes a prophet to know one anyway. BKnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-5509001133454882692014-07-27T20:52:15.822-07:002014-07-27T20:52:15.822-07:00PM, I agree with you that we could use latter-day ...PM, I agree with you that we could use latter-day Revelation. Happily, God continues to provide personal revelation to us as individuals. He has not abandoned the church.<br /><br />Institutional revelations seem to have ceased for the time being, though. I wish it wasn't so, but it's up to the Lord whether he has anything to say to us as a collective community. I think we deserve institutional repentance, but I don't really know what is holding things up for certain.Alan Rock Watermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-64887309950101855922014-07-26T20:48:51.148-07:002014-07-26T20:48:51.148-07:00I apologize for being a little late here. I just ...I apologize for being a little late here. I just found your blog and am reading through your posts.<br /><br />Rock, you and I agree on many things. Ever since I was in my twenties, I found myself wondering a bit about the financial side of the church as you do (payment ((tithing)) required for temple admittance, costs of church magazines required for visiting/home teaching, costs of underclothes which are required, costs of temple clothes... money, money, money). In my later twenties and into my thirties, I've thought quite a bit about the control factor, too. If you control how someone spends their time and money, what they eat and drink, when and with whom they have intimate relations, etc, you're essentially controlling them as a person.<br /><br />Don't get me wrong - I understand why we have many of the "standards" we have. Most are for good reasons but still, the strong associated guilt sometimes gets to me. I do feel that broken commandments require repentance but at the same time, I believe that there should be more love toward "sinners." It seems that repentance, on the human level, is more like receiving a punishment to make restitution (more of like a spanking from a parent than an outreach of love and understanding) whereas the Savior lovingly forgave sinners who possessed broken hearts and contrite spirits.<br /><br />Here's my question, though. Don't you think that today's saints are just as entitled to a modern-day prophet as the saints in Joseph Smith's time? Yes, I think these people have faults and I am not 100% pleased with how they handle the tithing money that I desperately need myself, but do you not feel that they're also good people and that at least some of them are modern-day revelators? True, we are entitled to personal revelation ourselves...<br /><br />I think there are some things that could change, yes. At the same time, I don't believe that God the Father would abandon us and leave us without a prophet and righteous leaders. To me this is not a black and white issue but more of a gray one. Perhaps they are imperfect leaders who, just like the rest of us, are subject to the law of repentance.<br /><br />-PMAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-64756900040341656432014-01-07T10:04:15.095-08:002014-01-07T10:04:15.095-08:00Heck, I thought HF stood for Hell Fire, when I rea...Heck, I thought HF stood for Hell Fire, when I read the post with the link about hell.Toninoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-79751680698794988262013-08-30T14:12:52.181-07:002013-08-30T14:12:52.181-07:00Personally, I've never found it necessary to l...Personally, I've never found it necessary to let the grammar of Moroni 10:5 get me tied up in knots. Let's remember that this is a translation of Moroni's words, and in the 19 century, (and continuing into our day in many instances) it was a common rhetorical device to ask the question in this way: "Is that not true?"<br /><br />I saw it a lot in transcripts of cases, particularly during cross examination. "You admit that you were standing at the dock at midnight of the night in question, is that not true?"<br /><br />I recall asking my seminary teacher about Jacob's use of the french word "adieu" at the end of the book of Jacob. How could it be that Jacob used a french word? Well, of course, Jacob didn't write "adieu," Joseph used that word to translate whatever reformed Egyptian word Jacob had put there.<br /><br />At the time of Joseph Smith, French fashion was all the rages in America, including the use of some french idioms like "adieu." Note Emma Smith's ringlets in the famous painting she and Joseph posed for. For that matter, even today most latter-day Saints believe Joseph Smith actually went around all the time with those brushed wings of hair jutting forward from his temple. I see artists renditions that have him wearing that style even when laboring out of doors. That's become the look. But it was just a style he wore for the portrait, same as many Americans were doing at the time. It was copied from Napoleon. <br /><br />Anyway, where was I? Oh yeah, talking about "is it not true?"<br /><br />It's just a frontier manner of speaking, folks. I wouldn't try to parse it too much.Alan Rock Watermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-46881882052062420912013-08-26T18:07:54.006-07:002013-08-26T18:07:54.006-07:00Another great link from Gary Hunt.
Thanks, Gary, ...Another great link from Gary Hunt.<br /><br />Thanks, Gary, for pointing me to this stuff.Alan Rock Watermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-70882466405437885962013-08-26T18:01:31.083-07:002013-08-26T18:01:31.083-07:00Thank you, Annalea. Happy to hear from you.Thank you, Annalea. Happy to hear from you.Alan Rock Watermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-62649682618878548932013-08-26T09:30:24.686-07:002013-08-26T09:30:24.686-07:00Commander Gidgiddoni and LDSDPer,
I agree, Elder ...Commander Gidgiddoni and LDSDPer,<br /><br />I agree, Elder Maxwells quote is a good. It reminded me of a great essay (short book) written by Étienne de La Boétie (1530–1563).<br /><br />"The Politics of Obedience: The Discourse of Voluntary Servitude" <br /><br />You can find it in PDF format at the following address:<br /><br />https://mises.org/document/1218/The-Politics-of-Obedience-The-Discourse-of-Voluntary-Servitude<br /><br />Gary Huntnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-44108811871309792702013-08-26T07:38:05.274-07:002013-08-26T07:38:05.274-07:00I don't know Denver Snuffer. I read a few thi...I don't know Denver Snuffer. I read a few things off his blog, and I found it mostly agreeable.<br /><br />I haven't purchased his books. I am always wary of groups of followers, even in the church, so I wouldn't participate in that, even if the person speaking/teaching were saying reasonable things.<br /><br />So, how do I justify reading Mormon blogs, such as Rock's?<br /><br />I'm not sitting in a group of people; I don't know any of you, haven't met any of you. I either agree or disagree--<br /><br />it doesn't feel as though there is a cult leader, even though many of us appreciate the time and work that Rock puts into pulling information together to help *us* all try to understand what is happening in the church today--<br /><br />I have had similar feelings/thoughts for decades, and it's nice to know I'm not alone.<br /><br />BUT, when a person puts 'himself' out there in person--<br /><br />with a 'following', meeting in 'venues' around the area--<br /><br />and gathering a group of obvious followers, then that becomes a threat to the 'powers that be', whether those PTB be justified in feeling threatened or not.<br /><br />He is obvious; he can be located--<br /><br />I'm not saying that it's wrong to put yourself 'out there'--<br /><br />it's a personal choice, though, and it's not what everyone feels he/she should do.<br /><br />Frankly, I've been managing to avoid being excommunicated for decades already, and it has taken work--<br /><br />I know that some SPs appear to be ecclesiastical thugs (sorry; hard word)--who are eager to separate out anyone who doesn't appear to be meek and mild and conforming--<br /><br />maybe there is a movement afoot to get rid of those who have ideas or even inspiration--<br /><br />which is a sad, bad thought, but maybe it's true--<br /><br />would Denver have done more good if he hadn't published the books and drawn the huge crowds? Maybe; I don't know. It's his choice.<br /><br />But I can say that I feel strongly that I need to fight in a different way. I need to fight to stay in--<br /><br />I'm not going to make it so easy for them to 'catch' me--<br /><br />I keep my mouth shut, except on places like this blog--<br /><br />I'm not going to let *them* push me out--<br /><br />I'm sorry about what is happening to Denver Snuffer. The SP sounds very patronizing, and I couldn't help but think about the Sunstone article on passive aggression that Rob put on his blog a while back. There's a lot of food for thought in that--<br /><br />this man is treating Denver in a way that sounds falsely friendly--<br /><br />while really being a menace to him. There's something malignant in that--<br /><br />LDSDPernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-23422865607338440582013-08-26T07:28:37.621-07:002013-08-26T07:28:37.621-07:00@Commander Gidgiddoni--
that's an amazing quo...@Commander Gidgiddoni--<br /><br />that's an amazing quote from Maxwell, but I daresay he was referring to the American culture, rather than to the church. Hard to say, though--<br /><br />LDSDPernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-30067328711507116842013-08-25T15:19:34.000-07:002013-08-25T15:19:34.000-07:00Hi,
When I think of the abuses of power that the ...Hi,<br /><br />When I think of the abuses of power that the modern day corporate church exhibits, we are worse off than the relationship between rulers and followers that the Lamanites had:<br /><br />Mosiah 20:25<br /><br />And it came to pass that they followed the king, and went forth without arms to meet the Lamanites. And it came to pass that they did meet the Lamanites; and the king of the Lamanites did bow himself down before them, and did plead in behalf of the people of Limhi.<br /><br />Notice how the king bowed and plead before his people. This would never happen in the corporate church today.<br /><br />I really like this quote from Neal A. Maxwell:<br /><br />"For what happens in cultural decline both leaders and followers are really accountable. Historically, of course, it is easy to criticize bad leaders, but we should not give followers a free pass. Otherwise, in their rationalization of their degeneration they may say they were just following orders, while the leader was just ordering followers!"Commander Gidgiddoninoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-20218902495325828812013-08-24T00:56:38.894-07:002013-08-24T00:56:38.894-07:00Be of good cheer; as you have doubtless discovered...Be of good cheer; as you have doubtless discovered, that post is back up. Apparently while I was amending it, it got bumped to an unreadable draft mode.Alan Rock Watermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-50747056561146778922013-08-24T00:36:36.886-07:002013-08-24T00:36:36.886-07:00Rock, I'm a new commenter, but have been readi...Rock, I'm a new commenter, but have been reading for a while. I'm so glad to hear you're feeling better. I've been troubled by Denver's news today, and reading this post was welcome balm to my soul.<br /><br />Keep up the good work. I sure have benefitted from it. :)Annaleahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12964274663555911996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-59407060359643093112013-08-23T15:24:44.609-07:002013-08-23T15:24:44.609-07:00Yes, I wondered, too; I was hoping for an update o...Yes, I wondered, too; I was hoping for an update on Rock's health as well--<br /><br />hope all is well with the Watermans--<br /><br />:(<br /><br />LDSDPernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-87218379442240074782013-08-23T14:13:58.188-07:002013-08-23T14:13:58.188-07:00What happened to the Circling The Wagons post? I ...What happened to the Circling The Wagons post? I was looking forward to updates on how we can help, and how the family from Australia is doing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-33070176155776471822013-08-21T14:16:33.833-07:002013-08-21T14:16:33.833-07:00The above comments is for Anon 23.The above comments is for Anon 23.Gary Huntnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-60618534097376262382013-08-21T12:50:16.577-07:002013-08-21T12:50:16.577-07:00Rob?
The one who doesn't hate me--LOL!
Is th...Rob?<br /><br />The one who doesn't hate me--LOL!<br /><br />Is this your blog?<br /><br />http://upwardthought.blogspot.com/2013/08/then-and-now-feigned-friendliness.html<br /><br />That Sunstone article is amazing, and I thank you for giving access to it--<br /><br />Sunstone has always been a bit above my notice for some reason, but there are some very interesting things in that article; timely.<br /><br /><br />Thanks!<br /><br />I can't comment; I don't have a google account or a website; I have tried (to get the google account; I'm not very good with technical stuff)--<br /><br />I was surprised there were no other comments; maybe everyone else has the same problem I do--<br /><br />LDSDPernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-15201582658900662212013-08-21T10:15:11.736-07:002013-08-21T10:15:11.736-07:00Anon,
I work in a field where I have to research ...Anon,<br /><br />I work in a field where I have to research and document what I say and do every day. If I don't I can get into big trouble. Also, I did not ask to to document everthing you say. Just your bold declarations. A few examples:<br /><br />1. Remarriage after a spouse has died.<br />2. Men are to blame for most divorces.<br />3. Almost all men are immoral - their wife will save them.<br />4. Men are more abusive than women.<br /><br />I have not read these things in the scriptures or from true prophets. All the research and study I have done over the years, regarding these subjects, refutes your contentions, in which you paint the picture that (for the most part) men are evil abusers and women are innocent victims. Maybe in your own little corner of the world you have experienced and/or seen what you claim. However, I know men who claim the opposite. The reality is that abuse is pretty much evenly divided between the sexes.Gary Huntnoreply@blogger.com