tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post3722872192104535938..comments2024-03-26T21:27:42.278-07:00Comments on Pure Mormonism: Don't Shoot! I'm Just The Messenger!Alan Rock Watermanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comBlogger25125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-37469087470730615122013-01-05T19:34:39.394-08:002013-01-05T19:34:39.394-08:00What's Taking place i am new to this, I stumbl...What's Taking place i am new to this, I stumbled upon this I've discovered It absolutely useful <br>and it has helped me out loads. I'm hoping to contribute & help different customers like its helped me. Good job.<br><i>My website</i>: <b><a href="http://articlesites.info/The-Basics-Of-Skin-Improving.htm" rel="nofollow">skin whitening</a></b>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-35781858436832677432013-01-05T14:49:02.295-08:002013-01-05T14:49:02.295-08:00As the admin of this site is working, no uncertain...As the admin of this site is working, no uncertainty very shortly it will be renowned, due to <br>its quality contents.<br><i>My web page</i> <b><a href="http://movie.tiim.mn/FrancescoR" rel="nofollow">how to lose man boobs</a></b>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-67382523537867605142010-12-08T05:26:45.619-08:002010-12-08T05:26:45.619-08:00Isn't this what happens to every religion (or ...Isn't this what happens to every religion (or Church)? Within the first 200 years they lose their way, events cloud their judgements, mammon invades their guts and needs and suddenly, poof goes the purity. <br><br>I have often thought that the best thing for the Church would be for It to lose everything It owns in the way of worldly goods and the World's admiration. Only then could It return to the purity It had at the beginning. As if that could ever happen.<br><br>Although I can't bring myself to remove my name from the membership records, I'll never return to my ward or stake. For 32 years I was treated as literally nothing of worth, because the body I got turned out to be gay and autistic. I don't hate the Church, but I surely do pity It. Whenever I see the glorified missionaries on the street I feel so sorry for them, that what they are teaching will lead to more misery in the life of somebody else and yet they don't know it. They think they are doing people a favor. There is a reason that they send out missionaries who are around 19, really the most gullible age of all, and no others who might be more mature and less programmable. It is also why the best soldier is the about the same age as well.<br><br>What a waste those 32 years were.Steven Lesterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01285355643172321289noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-18276443667048207882010-11-19T07:45:25.923-08:002010-11-19T07:45:25.923-08:00Rico,I was part of the graduating class during tha...Rico,<br><br>I was part of the graduating class during that commencement ceremony and there were several BYU students who were absolutely PISSED that Cheney was coming to speak; until they saw President Hinckley walk in and until Cheney spoke about his "Mormon ancestry." To this day I feel disgusted that I actually applauded for him.Dave P.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-12257713357902839002010-11-04T19:36:58.529-07:002010-11-04T19:36:58.529-07:00Perfectly said, Rico. I may quote you when I writ...Perfectly said, Rico. I may quote you when I write that thing.Alan Rock Watermanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-20062475552223962322010-11-04T18:14:42.452-07:002010-11-04T18:14:42.452-07:00Dear Bro. Rock,I'm looking forward to that art...Dear Bro. Rock,<br><br>I'm looking forward to that article on Hinckley's talk. For me the talk wasn't shameful. It was a complete failure if one was looking for guidance on the subject of war. Members that day expected clarity, and what they got was confusion. Hence, anyone who read the talk can read into it whatever he wanted to read into it. <br><br>This talk is a clear example of a prophet who should have spoken like a prophet but settled for something way less. The real shame of course is that when Saddam's WMDs turned out to be fiction, Hinckley never touched the subject until he died. And yet the war dragged on and on, and continues to devour innocent lives to this very day. It's as if the orgy of killing and destruction ceased already and wasn't worth talking about anymore.<br><br>In fact, wasn't Dick Cheney the torturer invited to speak in one BYU commencemnt exercise, and shared the stage with Hinckley? How do you exactly say Mormons are a people of peace with friends like Cheney?<br><br>RicoAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-55669211962955001962010-11-03T07:30:44.056-07:002010-11-03T07:30:44.056-07:00One of these days I plan to do an analysis of that...One of these days I plan to do an analysis of that conference talk, by the way. It was shameful, and it left many members with the impression that it was all okay, since the prophet seemed to be giving the war his stamp of approval. He didn't really, of course, but it was so full of doublespeak that it seemed that way.Alan Rock Watermanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-75776819031324474122010-11-03T07:28:46.830-07:002010-11-03T07:28:46.830-07:00I think the problem, Rico, is that since the presi...I think the problem, Rico, is that since the presidents of the Church(TM) no longer receive direct revelation from God, they are flying blind when addressing the subject. President Hinckley's conference talk in April of 2003, just after the bombing of Iraq had begun, was a collection of platitudes about how Jesus proclaimed peace, but, well, I dunno, I guess we should support this invasion (I'm paraphrasing). Although Hinckley quoted a verse from D&C 98 where we are called to proclaim peace, he neglected to mention verse 33 which prohibits incursions into other countries.<br><br>In case you didn't see them, I posted what I think were my best pieces on war in two parts starting here:<br><br>http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2009/07/what-do-i-mean-by-pure-mormonism.html<br><br>Pretty much everything an Mormon needs to know to combat the crap spewing from the mouths of the active LDS warmongers. Enjoy!Alan Rock Watermanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-60928085869518494392010-11-03T06:19:20.078-07:002010-11-03T06:19:20.078-07:00Dear Bro. Rock,Thanks for your your insights on wa...Dear Bro. Rock,<br><br>Thanks for your your insights on war. I don't know of any other LDS who thinks of war in the same breath as you do. So, it is quite refreshing to hear an alternate view. As you know, I'm antiwar too but I'm not an active LDS anymore. I used to be though. And it disturbs me that almost every active LDS I know is pro-war.<br><br>Why do you think this is so? If the First Presidency in ancient times said that church should be against war, how did many of its members end up developing the exact opposite ideas?<br><br>RicoAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-21369234428665181042010-04-30T09:53:31.147-07:002010-04-30T09:53:31.147-07:00Anonymous, you may have misunderstood the writer o...Anonymous, <br><br>you may have misunderstood the writer of that comment. He was saying that our government continues to risk our safety by antagonizing those who are so powerless that the only way they have of striking back is the extreme one of dying in the effort.<br><br>I take it you assume the writer approves of this tactic. He doesn't. But he is realistic enough to see that actions have consequences.<br><br>No one straps a bomb on himself and goes out without motivation. Suicide bombers are always motivated by the desire to retaliate.<br><br>Retaliation implies that ones' enemy has committed the original offense.<br><br>The Book of Mormon tells us how to tell the good guys from the bad guys. The good guys are the people who live on the land. The Bad guys are the people who invade the other guy's land.<br><br>This is also the doctrine the movies such as "Red Dawn" and "Avatar". When you watched those movies, whose side did you root for?Rock Watermannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-60941651844699805122010-04-29T21:27:32.650-07:002010-04-29T21:27:32.650-07:00I read this far and stopped: "Our greatest ri...I read this far and stopped: "Our greatest risk is to piss off people around the world so badly that they are compelled to carry out suicide missions." Whomever wrote that knows NOTHING about history. Don't believe much of what they say, son, they're naive. Please read for yourself the history of that religion and learn something; their suicide missions have nothing to do with what our country has done....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-36695249500360030062009-12-07T00:22:48.968-08:002009-12-07T00:22:48.968-08:00I really feel that I get to give Rock, and all of ...I really feel that I get to give Rock, and all of you who comment here a compliment and TRUE respect!<br><br>If people, who may not completely agree on everything-especially when it comes to war, soldiers, politics and religion; hot buttons all- could speak this civilized to one another and find common ground- as you all do here; we wouldn't have war to begin with! This is what I call love and respect! I feel the spirit here.<br><br>I have found that on many blogs the tone is set by the Blogger him or her-self. <br><br>1st- I would like to tell you that as I have "lurked" and then finally made a few comments here, I have noticed that Rock is completely open to everything said by his readers- and even quite often either agrees with or patiently, and I would say respectfully, explains his position. That takes a very strong person! You have a lot more patience than I've ever had!<br><br>2nd- I am most impressed with the knowledge and humility of almost ALL of the comments here! This is a fantastic site, to not only get your point across- but to be respectfully reminded of the truths that each one of us; as Americans and as members of the church of Jesus Christ get to learn and know! The truth is (obviously!) very important to me...no matter how hard it may be to swallow. And, truthfully...it CAN be one of the hardest "pills" to swallow, especially when it goes against everything you "thought" was the truth! <br><br>I have grown weary of the name calling and hurtful, disrespectful in-fighting and name calling on most blogs, you tube, etc. It doesn't get us ANY where to treat our fellow Brothers and Sisters with such a complete disregard because we disagree with their opinion.<br><br>I just wanted to say thanks to Rock for this great, informative and clearly well thought out blog. You set the tone. Almost everyone who has commented here, has done so with more respect and honor than I have ever seen- especially with such "delicate" topics.I personally, have learned a lot here.<br><br>Keep up the GREAT work!TruthSeekernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-1947251780669189342009-11-23T19:57:47.671-08:002009-11-23T19:57:47.671-08:00Part of the problem is that very few who "ser...Part of the problem is that very few who "serve" us take their oaths seriously. I dare say that most of them don't have a clue what they are taking an oath to do. My guess is that Obama, 95% of our congress, and 98% of the military would fail a basic test on constitutional principles. Who is to blame if a person joins the military, then agrees to deploy to "defend" our country in a war that is illegal to start out with? When I make a contract to purchase a house for instance, I'm bound by the contract, whether I understood it or not. The same should apply to the military. If they don't know what the Consittution that they are defending says about war, they are still responsible for participating in something illegal and should be held accountable for it. Nobody forced them to join. I respect the military as I do anyone. Respect doesn't have to be earned, contrary to popular belief. It is required of all of God's children. But respect for someone doesn't mean I have to agree with what they are doing. I actually resent what most of the military is doing. Can they plead ignorance?jayguntherhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17470050130722997821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-87591882800345956672009-11-21T23:04:03.441-08:002009-11-21T23:04:03.441-08:00Hey, Rock! Thanks for responding.I agree with you...Hey, Rock!<br> Thanks for responding.I agree with you. I think "accountability" is definitely the operative word. Unfortunately,"Leviathan/Mammon" will never apply that word unto itself. (I also agree with the MOST politicians statement)<br> -Peace, Brother<br> <br> Also, to Dave P. - Great points! If only....Gordzillanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-15137447974031027622009-11-21T18:42:51.509-08:002009-11-21T18:42:51.509-08:00Dave P., as usual your comments are right on the m...Dave P., as usual your comments are right on the mark. I'm glad you recommended Tom Wood's recent book. I second that recommendation.<br><br>Good point on Alma 62. The Nephites had a republican form of government that protected the individual's rights "according to our laws".Alan Rock Watermanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-23955750972338969932009-11-21T14:52:47.082-08:002009-11-21T14:52:47.082-08:00Obama doesn't have to do a thing in regards to...Obama doesn't have to do a thing in regards to ordering the troops to pull out or not. The troops themselves just have to remember their oaths to uphold and defend the Constitution. If they did that, and utterly refused to obey any orders related to the unconstitutional wars and actions in the middle east, our esteemed "leaders" (which I put in quotes because they dare not venture into any dangerous area) would have no choice but to call off all overseas actions. Those are the soldiers who I would definitely admire. I remain neutral about the Oathkeepers right now because they haven't proven themselves. Yet.<br><br>The book "We Who Dared Say No to War," compiled by Tom Woods, has numerous examples of soldiers deployed to Iraq who realized the idiocy of the whole situation and did everything they could to avoid engaging the "enemy."<br><br>Alma 62 talks about how the king-men were tried and executed for treason, but makes a point that it was all done according to the established law. A righteous government doesn't make "exceptions" for wartime.Dave P.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-79946597167924220012009-11-21T13:18:44.346-08:002009-11-21T13:18:44.346-08:00Anonymous, Nice rant, and well said. You are inde...Anonymous, <br><br>Nice rant, and well said. You are indeed my brother.<br><br>Gordzilla,<br><br>My intent is not to demonize the soldier but to warn the potential recruit that the military today, AS PRESENTLY CONSTITUTED, is not the force for good that it once was. I'm merely saying that a young Christian idealist hoping to advance the cause of Christ cannot justify serving a government bent on empire.<br><br>The well-intended people you administer to are victims of Leviathan.<br><br> In a future post I hope to clarify what I mean by "Accountability". I sense some of my readers are thinking I'm confusing accountability with condemnation. I'm not condemning anyone, with the possible exception of certain politicians. Make that MOST politicians.<br><br>P.S. Gordo, you are my brother too.Rock Watermannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-57331530080401447852009-11-21T11:38:29.184-08:002009-11-21T11:38:29.184-08:00Hey, Rock - I think you'll find in my previous...Hey, Rock - I think you'll find in my previous post that I actually agree with your basic core idea. I just think you're villifying precisely the wrong people.<br> -PeaceGordzillanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-36215356092724220762009-11-21T11:26:42.755-08:002009-11-21T11:26:42.755-08:00Yo, Rock - If our nation were to be attacked - if...Yo, Rock - <br> If our nation were to be attacked - if, let's say, China decided to launch an invasion (a scenario they actually prepare for, and consider an option) or a preemptive strike, it wouldn't be your UPS guy putting his life on the line to protect you (he'd run screaming for the hills) it would be those who are trained for that possibility. While it's true a lot of young men and women are choosing military service as a way to pay for college, many join because they actually wish to serve our country out of a sincere desire within their hearts. Again it's true that the govt' has misused and abused the righteous intent of these people to levels that are absolutely criminal. However, it seems to me that in trying to illustrate your point, you have actually swung the pendulum too far in the opposite direction to the point you express contempt for those in uniform.<br> I work as a behavioral health/substance abuse counselor in a Veteran's residential treatment facility and I see every day the results of of our govt's abuse of these people who were taken advantage of and sold a bill of goods by those in washington claiming to love our nation as they do. I see people that wake up screaming every night from horrible nightmares having seen women and children strapped with explosives and used as weapons against them, I see people with post-traumatic stress disorder that are so desperate to have normal lives, etc., I could go on. I spend my time struggling to help these people because their hearts were/are in the right place. <br> This forum speaks of Christ-consciousness and unconditional love, but it appears to me that sometimes "that which we all claim to prize, no one can truly <br>recognize..." <br> To judge these people in this manner is like saying the person who gets scammed should go to prison along with the swindler. <br><br>I'm positive the Savior would only want to heal them. Aren't we supposed to emulate him?Gordzillanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-55796603999387282332009-11-21T08:07:19.085-08:002009-11-21T08:07:19.085-08:00Dear Brother:Since I am a veteran, having served i...Dear Brother:<br><br>Since I am a veteran, having served in two branches of the military, here is my view. We as a Nation are idiots! A true veteran in my view is put in harms way, how can a military person that sits in an office somewhere in the middle of The USA garner the same "adoration" as a grunt under fire? Yet, anyone who ever wore the uniform is a "vet." As far as respect, yes give unto all proper child of God respect. Blind hero worship sets up a falsehood of giant proportions. I, as you, grew up surrounded by God, Family, and Country instilled in me. I used to be a flag waver, now it's similar to standing ovations for any live show, theater, comedy act, etc., whether it was extraordinary or not. Aggression begets aggression. Live by the sword, die by the sword. In addition we have a volunteer military. They choose a job for either pay or college later on. If because of that choice, I somehow now must give them extra honors, I THINK NOT! I view the police, oops sorry, Law Enforcement the same way. I took POST courses, have a police science degree. Spent sometime in the Ventura Sheriffs academy and Santa Barbara reserves. You represent Me, not the other way around. So do me proud by not lying, cheating, killing, tasing-children for big brother. Wear any uniform with pride as it's your Job, you picked it. <br>I now turn the soapbox back to my brother.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-5678882002292793162009-11-21T07:29:55.362-08:002009-11-21T07:29:55.362-08:00Those in uniform do deserve my respect. Just as e...Those in uniform do deserve my respect. Just as every other person on the planet deserves my respect.<br><br>When we as a church start putting pictures of our barbers, plumbers, and truck drivers on the bulletin boards right next to the pictures of our soldiers in the foyer, I'll know we finally have things in perspective.<br><br>The man in the UPS uniform who came to my door yesterday rendered me a more direct and valuable service than the uniformed man overseas who has been led to believe he is in the service of the entire country.Rock Watermannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-56413074437783200622009-11-21T01:48:50.023-08:002009-11-21T01:48:50.023-08:00Hey, Rock. Sorry I couldn't find anything to a...Hey, Rock. Sorry I couldn't find anything to argue with you about here. While it's true that we shouldn't worship those in uniform, they do deserve our respect - which is something they will NOT get from their govt. that needlessly places them in harm's way for reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with national security.Gordzillanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-36805482057247402912009-11-20T21:01:36.616-08:002009-11-20T21:01:36.616-08:00"The Church as a Church does not believe in w..."The Church as a Church does not believe in war and yet since its organization whenever war has come we have done our part … we do thoroughly believe in building up our home defenses to the maximum extent necessary, but we do not believe that aggression should be carried on in the name and under the false cloak of defense. We therefore look with sorrowing eyes at the present use to which a great part of the funds being raised by taxes and by borrowing is being put … We believe that our real threat comes from within and not from without, and it comes from the underlying spirit common to Naziism, Fascism, and Communism, namely, the spirit which would array class against class, which would set up a socialistic state of some sort, which would rob the people of the liberties which we possess under the Constitution, and would set up such a reign of terror as exists now in many parts of Europe." First Presidency, 1941<br><br>Jayjayguntherhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17470050130722997821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-75441177874074607642009-11-20T19:01:23.127-08:002009-11-20T19:01:23.127-08:00You hit it right on the head as usual, Rock. I...You hit it right on the head as usual, Rock. I've read those negative comments that were posted on your last article, and all I could think of was that as in the days of the Pharisees, those who are most sure of the rightness of their positions seem to be the ones closest to the abyss.Cap'n Moroninoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-46387545594900810992009-11-20T10:22:08.277-08:002009-11-20T10:22:08.277-08:00And a good message it is. I feel a deep love and s...And a good message it is. I feel a deep love and sympathy for all that struggle to do good in the face of such adversity. That goes for military personel and civilian, LDS and non-LDS alike.ImBusyLivinghttp://www.imbusyliving.comnoreply@blogger.com