tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post3641425140829927269..comments2024-03-28T15:23:18.071-07:00Comments on Pure Mormonism: When Tithing Settlement Goes Horribly WrongAlan Rock Watermanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comBlogger244125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-9506740568579772692021-02-17T15:11:32.969-08:002021-02-17T15:11:32.969-08:00Rock - Thanks a lot for the information and string...Rock - Thanks a lot for the information and stringing it all together. I found a few really useful pieces of information here that I used on my timeline project (https://hemlockknots.com/tithing-timeline/). There are lots of tithing-related timelines out there, but none are as complete as they should be and many are missing critical citation data. My goal is to bring just the facts together and organize/format them in a way that makes study of the historical sources easy and insightful. <br /><br />I gave you a link at the bottom as well. <br /><br />Thanks again,<br />-MarkAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04028914155884001714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-18291700904284907332021-02-16T12:21:25.902-08:002021-02-16T12:21:25.902-08:00Your blog is fabulous! If anyone want to grow thei...Your blog is fabulous! If anyone want to grow their business but no amount to invest then we'll help them out. Check the link below,<br /><a href="https://businessleadsworld.com/" rel="nofollow">https://businessleadsworld.com/</a>Leads Worldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02841749042597480622noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-47410809754591971522018-08-21T18:09:36.322-07:002018-08-21T18:09:36.322-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03489142320218784651noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-6033328346486265092018-08-21T17:41:53.183-07:002018-08-21T17:41:53.183-07:00PART II
Pure Mormonism Blogger said: >> I c...PART II<br /><br />Pure Mormonism Blogger said: >> I couldn't help thinking of Nephi's words on robbing the poor when I read: “If paying tithing means that you can’t pay for water or electricity, pay tithing. If paying tithing means that you can’t pay your rent, pay tithing. Even if paying tithing means that you don’t have enough money to feed your family, pay tithing.<< <br /><br />An omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent God does not need our monuments. God doesn't care if we gather or pray in a tent or a palace. We do not need to spend millions or billions on anything until everyone has a home to call their own, means of transportation, sufficient food, clothing, education, and health care, in other words until everyone has the basic necessities of life, and a reasonable and equitable standard of living. The Proclamation on the Family states, "those who abuse spouse or offspring will stand accountable." All parents are obligated to provide for, love, and care for family as their FIRST priority before God. <br /><br />Sister Adrian Yearsley <br />St George, Utah 2018<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03489142320218784651noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-6559835258461194632018-08-21T17:40:26.134-07:002018-08-21T17:40:26.134-07:00PART I
Pure Mormonism Blogger said: I couldn'...PART I <br /><br />Pure Mormonism Blogger said: I couldn't help thinking of Nephi's words on robbing the poor when I read: “If paying tithing means that you can’t pay for water or electricity, pay tithing. If paying tithing means that you can’t pay your rent, pay tithing. Even if paying tithing means that you don’t have enough money to feed your family, pay tithing.<< <br /><br />Our Holy Father in Heaven does not effect his purposes by abuse, neglect, or crimes against "the least of these". Christ the Lord Omnipotent attend. <br /><br />As a child, I had a single parent, a vulnerable adult struggling to make ends meet, who was assailed by these demands. She submitted to such demands as described in your quote of the December Ensign, 2012. Consequently, we went hungry, and were without electricity or heat in our own home because tithing was paid first, and not enough remained to pay the bills, repair the car, or otherwise remain financially stable. It destabilized our lives in the short and long-term. It eventually resulted in the loss of a vehicle used as the primary means of transportation to work by a single parent which resulted in the loss of a job. It ultimately led to the loss of our home, homelessness with which the church did not assist. There would not have been such destabilization had there not been abusive demands to pay tithing when there was no means to do so, or demands to neglect self or the care of children in order to place money in the control of counterfeiters who use the name of Christ and the Church to misappropriate the earnings and property of others. <br /><br />During the same period, locals in counterfeit leadership were pushing polygamy. I had child rapists at the door to advance underage relations, proposing to hide criminal sexual behavior behind false claims of religious purpose. This was not in the dark, distant, or ignorant past. It was the 20th Century United States, in the 1970s when all the laws of the land in our country prohibited such crimes against women and children and they knew it beyond any shadow of a doubt as they do now. Causing destabilization of vulnerable adults, and sending out predators to carry out predatory sexual behavior is not of God. <br /><br />Notably, locals including the Hatchs and the state agricultural instructor in how to grow a garden in your own back yard were busy teaching iniquity, that women were not equal to men and should be subjugated, that they should not have equal rights, as well as teaching polygamy. <br /><br />When my mother declined to participate in criminal acts, removed me from the predators' reach, and directed these fakes and criminals to leave, they mischaracterized her as mentally ill. Blame the victim is their victimization pattern. I've never forgotten those counterfeiters or their attempted crimes or insults. While I uphold and sustain the true church, (not false gods, false doctrines, false prophets), and I honor God and serve my fellow beings with what means I have, I give tithing directly to those in need. <br /><br />When accounting, I account for my tenth or more in a legal statement, and sign my name under the statement "given as to Christ". I do not give to thieves who unjustly enrich themselves while failing or refusing to care for the poor and needy. Where I am aware the needs of the poor have not been met, I do not donate to building, missionary, or any other church fund where we are overbuilt, overpaid, and in excess of our needs. (Continued in Part II) <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03489142320218784651noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-19393026974770809792017-12-13T03:35:29.700-08:002017-12-13T03:35:29.700-08:00Never forget that the "church" in its cu...Never forget that the "church" in its current form is a corporation. The "leaders" chosen are those who are most blindly obedient and have the capability to bring in the most money. Note the complete absence of God being involved in the calling.Dave P.https://www.blogger.com/profile/09408131079502238239noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-42090176099236556012017-12-11T16:29:16.182-08:002017-12-11T16:29:16.182-08:00Underdog2, That's a pretty blatant admission t...Underdog2, That's a pretty blatant admission that they're aspiring to leadership. Good for you for holding your own.Alan Rock Watermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-90860822527164879972017-12-11T14:26:06.658-08:002017-12-11T14:26:06.658-08:00It's Dec 2017. Just read this post for the fir...It's Dec 2017. Just read this post for the first time. Thank you, Rock.<br /><br />This year for tithing settlement my family and I (including still some kids in the house) had a group meeting with the bishop. <br /><br />I personally declared myself a full tithe payer but I explained to the bishop that I'm paying anonymously so not even the stake knows what my donations are. <br /><br />The bishop had told me earlier in the year that bishops and stake presidents are chosen from a pool of candidates who are top tithe payers. He said essentially that if you're not paying enough, you exclude yourself from consideration. <br /><br />I told him, in our family TS meeting, politely that policy was offensive to me and I didn't want to feel like I was buying a position in the church, so therefore I had been contributing anonymously. <br /><br />I told him I realize that nixed any chance of me being called as the next bishop, which would have been in the next 6 months. (The stake president, a friend of 12 years, has been telling me (inappropriately) for several years, "Get ready, you're next," as if he was trying to get my loyalty or something.)<br /><br /><br />The bishop didn't argue with me. Or even act surprised at my stance of anonymous payments.<br /><br /><br />This practice allows me to help the poor out directly as I see fit and not have to feel judged by people in my ward or stake who are looking at my reduced "numbers" on their reports. <br /><br />I sense the church is on the verge of collapse in next 10-20 years. Underdog2https://www.blogger.com/profile/11725899703711092900noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-29364486999720857582015-01-03T13:17:02.494-08:002015-01-03T13:17:02.494-08:00Rock,
"When the cat's away......"Rock,<br />"When the cat's away......"<br />Robin Hoodnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-47294604422642305352015-01-03T12:51:19.430-08:002015-01-03T12:51:19.430-08:00It always seems to be the case that when circumsta...It always seems to be the case that when circumstances prevent me from monitoring this blog on a daily basis, I tend to miss out on some of the most stimulating debates.<br /><br />I am sorry to see the conversation between Robin Hood and Log border on the acidic, because I consider both of them personal friends. I have engaged in offline discussions with both Log and Robin Hood on many occasions, and though sometimes we disagree, more often we find common ground.<br /><br />Well, I guess I'm expected to weigh in on this controversy, since I started this thing. But if I'm going to give the response the attention it deserves, I'll have to beg off until later because I simply don't have the time today.<br /><br /> I'm even tempted to just turn my response into a full-on blog post, because it touches on areas I believe many readers are interested in. So stay tuned, and I'll be back within a day or two, either in this space or as a new post.<br /><br />Alan Rock Watermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-37699658900047360012015-01-02T16:46:26.899-08:002015-01-02T16:46:26.899-08:00Gary Hunt,
I don't consider you to be picking...Gary Hunt,<br /><br />I don't consider you to be picking on me, I consider you to be selective about who you call out.<br /><br />There are sentence citations, paragraphical citations, and bibliographical citations. The first two paragraphs of this blog had no citations. The third paragraph did have a citation attached to it. I was looking for clarification from the first two paragraphs, and not the third. It was improperly cited. But this is splitting hairs. Look at the opening paragraph of Rock's book (page 6) and he starts out with a huge, unsubstantiated claim. I haven't really dug too deeply into this blog or the book, but if I did, I am confident that I could compile a lengthy list of poor scholarship.<br /><br />I don't care if you think I use logical fallacies or not. The pages of this bog and comment section are full of them. Like I said, you zero in on those you want to call on the carpet (out of nowhere it seems).<br /><br />Anyway, lets not forget the issue here...poor scholarship. Rock's claim that he is correct unless someone can show him otherwise (point out his mistakes) is a major logical fallacy. (Burden of proof).<br /><br />Anon 2Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-6070536508454607122015-01-02T16:15:10.269-08:002015-01-02T16:15:10.269-08:00Log,
Forgiven.Log,<br />Forgiven.Robin Hoodnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-91897290584959056922015-01-02T13:52:33.993-08:002015-01-02T13:52:33.993-08:00Bishop Robin Hood,
With statements like "Log...Bishop Robin Hood,<br /><br />With statements like "Log, I'm afraid you are wrong," it was very, even exceedingly, difficult to tell that you were addressing Rock's claims and not my own.<br /><br />Forgive my poor reading comprehension.Jared Liveseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10309044282039536254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-4973155702481192692015-01-02T13:30:27.697-08:002015-01-02T13:30:27.697-08:00Log,
That's right, it was your claim.
I, on ...Log,<br />That's right, it was your claim. <br /><br />I, on the other hand, was addressing Rock's claim, not yours.Robin Hoodnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-34265890597298486702015-01-02T10:07:46.700-08:002015-01-02T10:07:46.700-08:00Hi Bishop Robin Hood,
Congratulations on your fin...Hi Bishop Robin Hood,<br /><br />Congratulations on your find. However, my claim - that Rock is in harmony with the Encyclopedia of Mormonism - is still correct, despite the Church's sliding definition of seventy and your subsequent crowing.<br /><br />That's the magic of making limited, specific, and substantiated claims.<br /><br />Cheers.Jared Liveseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10309044282039536254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-41492548865344850192015-01-02T09:41:07.815-08:002015-01-02T09:41:07.815-08:00Anon 2,
1. If you had taken the time to look up a...Anon 2,<br /><br />1. If you had taken the time to look up and read the reference which Rock gave,(History of the Church, Volume 7, pg 293), you would seed that it substantiates what he said in the first two paragraphs. Who's demonstrating "poor scholarship" and is being "intellectually lazy"?<br /><br />2. You said..."I consider this to be poor scholarship, and instead of addressing scholarship issues, people, like Gary Hunt attack the messenger." If you go back and read what I said, you will see that I "attacked" the message not the messenger. There is a big difference. In good argumentation, challenging another persons argument, especially when they are using logical fallacies, is standard procedure. Attacking the person instead of their argument would be considered an ad hominem attack, which is not good argumentation. Again, I did not do that to you.<br /><br />3. For the record I do " turn the microscope on" Rock and other's making claims on this blog. Just ask Log, BK, and Robin Hood. There are others. Quite frankly I do not care if you disagree with Rock. I do care when a person uses logical fallacies to try and argue their position. I realize that all of us unintentionally use logical fallacies at times. I catch myself doing it at times. However, when a person is aware of logical fallacies and intentionally uses them to deceive others into following their position, they are being intellectually dishonest. <br /><br />4. You used a number of logical fallacies in your last comments(January 1, 2015 at 10:18 AM). I will not list them and will leave that for others to figure out. I promise I will not pick on you anymore. Gary Huntnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-65085163110492864622015-01-02T09:04:03.069-08:002015-01-02T09:04:03.069-08:00Log,
Oops.... in my haste I forgot to link to the ...Log,<br />Oops.... in my haste I forgot to link to the authoritative statement on the issue I raised with Rock.<br />https://www.lds.org/church/leaders/quorums-of-the-seventy?lang=eng<br /><br />You'll see about half way through the third paragraph it clearly states:<br />"Members of the First and Second Quorums of the Seventy are considered General Authorities, meaning they have authority to serve anywhere in the church. Members of the remaining quorums are called Area Seventies, and their authority is limited to the area where they serve."<br /><br />I'm surprised neither you, nor apparently Rock, thought to get the information from the most authoritative source available. It took literally two clicks!<br /><br />Anyway, like I said... happy new year.Robin Hoodnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-44970143579711567082015-01-02T08:45:54.589-08:002015-01-02T08:45:54.589-08:00Log,
I just can't be bothered to debate this i...Log,<br />I just can't be bothered to debate this issue with you. You seem determined to argue about something other than what I said. Oh well, never mind. The words "swine" and "pearls" come forcefully to mind. <br />In answer to your latest post, I refer you to my previous comments.<br />Happy new year.Robin Hoodnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-35265169813302095652015-01-02T08:41:59.431-08:002015-01-02T08:41:59.431-08:00I pointed out that an AS is not a GA but is a loca...<i>I pointed out that an AS is not a GA but is a local leader and that therefore no rules had been broken.</i><br /><br /><b>The Encyclopedia of Mormonism says a member of any of the quorums of the seventy is a GA.</b><br /><br /><i>I left it there and forgot about it until I read his statement on this blog that he corrects "any mistakes as soon as they are pointed out" to him. I simply pointed out that this statement was not entirely accurate.</i><br /><br /><b>Isn't it necessary to first substantiate Rock made an error and then crow about his hypocrisy?</b> Because if I, who don't give two defecations about the actual matter under discussion - truly, I don't care - could so easily find out that Rock was apparently in harmony with the Encyclopedia of Mormonism, and therefore appears to be correct in his assertion, whether his source for the information was an "apostate" former AS or not, well, then your crowing about his hypocrisy seems premature.Jared Liveseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10309044282039536254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-6365962710334297782015-01-02T08:24:23.345-08:002015-01-02T08:24:23.345-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Jared Liveseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10309044282039536254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-86266195261577519932015-01-02T08:14:21.619-08:002015-01-02T08:14:21.619-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Jared Liveseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10309044282039536254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-30141711449923374842015-01-02T02:28:26.731-08:002015-01-02T02:28:26.731-08:00Log,
No, you do not understand me correctly. Not e...Log,<br />No, you do not understand me correctly. Not even close.<br /><br />Perhaps I could remind you. Some months ago Rock said that he had been interviewed by his SP following a nudge/complaint from an Area Seventy (AS). His stance was that this was out of order as the AS was a GA. I pointed out that an AS is not a GA but is a local leader and that therefore no rules had been broken.<br />Rock then asked a known apostate, Hans Mattsson, who is a former AS in Europe, for the low-down on whether an AS is a GA. Mattsson said it was and Rock, without any further research, published this as a fact in his book. In truth this information suited him because chapter 1 would have been quite flimsy without it.<br /><br />After I read this I contacted Rock by email to point out that this was wrong and evidenced my claim. The evidence I gave him easily trumped "I asked Hans Mattsson" and was fairly conclusive.<br />However, Rock remained publicly silent on this issue.<br /><br />I left it there and forgot about it until I read his statement on this blog that he corrects "any mistakes as soon as they are pointed out" to him. I simply pointed out that this statement was not entirely accurate.<br /><br />So, you see, this is really nothing to do with hierarchy in the church at all.<br /><br />Log, have you ever thought of renaming yourself "stick"? It's just that you seem to get hold of the wrong end of it so often :)Robin Hoodnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-28114505551974759552015-01-01T19:45:00.682-08:002015-01-01T19:45:00.682-08:00I have always noticed that people who don't wa...I have always noticed that people who don't want to accept and deal with truth that people like Rock are sharing, try to change the subject to trivialities, like footnotes, documentation or the rank of some person or opinion. <br /><br />I don't care if something comes from an Angel or from the devil himself, I deal with whether it's true or not, not who said it or what their position may be. <br /><br />No one trumps Christ's supposed words in the New Testament, yet we even have to prove those words to be true before believing them, by living them to see if they really do bring happiness, peace & liberty or not. <br /><br />And to call someone 'apostate' should be clarified, 'apostate' from what? The Gospel of Jesus Christ or apostate from the LDS Church? For they are 2 very different and opposite things. No one can be faithful to both. We are either apostate to the LDS Church or to Christ. BKnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-60022763005242912252015-01-01T19:09:25.657-08:002015-01-01T19:09:25.657-08:00Anon 2, what are you doing back here?
You just c...Anon 2, what are you doing back here? <br /><br />You just cost me a two dollar bet.Gaybob Spongebathnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-69556130177244692122015-01-01T13:40:55.261-08:002015-01-01T13:40:55.261-08:00Waitaminute.
Robin Hood, do I understand you corr...Waitaminute.<br /><br />Robin Hood, do I understand you correctly - are you saying that for you, Rock's being insufficiently rank-conscious in your eyes diminishes his credibility?<br /><br />Puts me in mind of this quote from Nibley.<br /><br /><i>As it is, a General Authority recently told me that he found more snobbery and rank-consciousness among the religious faculty of the BYU than anywhere else in the Church. <b>If a very, very little learning can have that effect on devoted brethren, what would it have done among the real brethren?</b> - <a href="http://publications.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=1094&index=18&keyword=snobbery" rel="nofollow">cite</a></i><br /><br />Well, I'm getting an idea.Jared Liveseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10309044282039536254noreply@blogger.com