tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post2994294974111817364..comments2024-03-13T12:52:19.391-07:00Comments on Pure Mormonism: The Problem With Denver SnufferAlan Rock Watermanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comBlogger232125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-68157035036615174132021-10-18T23:03:53.508-07:002021-10-18T23:03:53.508-07:00Link for [5] https://web.archive.org/web/201411091...Link for [5] https://web.archive.org/web/20141109155719/http://www.heraldextra.com/news/local/central/provo/lds-church-president-dedicates-zions-bank-financial-center/article_aa4c7a09-89ae-5eb4-a361-9fe3d4d400d8.htmlNormanFolklerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13553420106996854787noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-21672837410609353612020-05-09T15:28:04.875-07:002020-05-09T15:28:04.875-07:00Denver is very learned. That confuses a lot of peo...Denver is very learned. That confuses a lot of people. They mistake his religious scholarship and depth of knowledge in many areas of scripture for inspiration. He's a learned teacher. He's not an inspired prophet. <br /><br />dxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02337714685336377182noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-49791139974312592572017-07-23T22:13:38.909-07:002017-07-23T22:13:38.909-07:00Was Denver married and divorced before he converte...Was Denver married and divorced before he converted to the LDS faith? And was his wife unfaithful? And did He ever share anything about this in any of his books or lectures?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12643585774566460836noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-78597253920799033272017-01-16T19:57:11.433-08:002017-01-16T19:57:11.433-08:00I am very sad for all of you believing in this Den...I am very sad for all of you believing in this Denver Snuffer guy. He is leading you down the wrong path. I feel no warm spirit here, nothing at all that would entice me to research further regarding Denver or witness to me he is anything other than a man bitter because he was excommunicated from the church and now leading many others down that same path. In fact, just being on this blog upsets me horribly. I am leaving now. Please be aware, it is so easy to be deceived by a man like this!TrueMormonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01942055982050100408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-29940528238463310152015-09-20T01:08:52.399-07:002015-09-20T01:08:52.399-07:00Thank you for your comment Stephen... I completely...Thank you for your comment Stephen... I completely agree.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13094275396286504833noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-16141034220822772652015-06-07T20:57:54.562-07:002015-06-07T20:57:54.562-07:00One must ask the question, the Lord will have to s...One must ask the question, the Lord will have to set His hand a "second time, to recover His people" first time was the restoration. Yep, they have slipped away again. Simple clues re all over showing it will and has happened. And if you give the quote about never leading this people astray, include the entire quote... "If you are found doing your duty, ....."Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05847006510373208298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-69216805803946040632015-05-19T00:13:23.076-07:002015-05-19T00:13:23.076-07:00I just found this post after googling "Denver...I just found this post after googling "Denver Snuffer". Some good friends of mine recently moved to Utah to be baptized into "The Doctrine of Christ", the group of people following Denver Snuffer and organizing themselves into a church according to his teachings. In talking with them they mentioned re-baptizing all of their family as new members of this group of people with Denver at the helm. I easily found this website where the recordings of such baptisms are being done"to be written in special archival ink and placed in the vault when our temple is finally built in the future" (paraphrased, but you can go read it yourself here: http://www.recordersclearinghouse.com/2015/04/). The man running the website is the person who does all the recording of baptisms for this group.<br /><br />I appreciate your article defending Denver, but it seems to me it needs an serious update from hearing from my friends about his involvement in the workings of this group,the meetings he holds,the re-baptizing, the sacrament taken with red wine and bread...that he's gone down the path many were concerned about in the first place, the very path that he warns time and again about in his words on his website. By asking for individuals to be re-baptized into this new group of his with promises of being "called up" and the building of "a new temple", in my opinion he is asking for them to be following someone OTHER than Christ. Rubyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16682444951778491872noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-55913080808949915162015-01-15T13:27:50.549-08:002015-01-15T13:27:50.549-08:00A reminder that comments posted here without some ...A reminder that comments posted here without some kind of identifying moniker will most likely be deleted. That goes especially for comments of a provocative nature, not because I object to the contents, but because other readers cannot always accurately respond without being able to address the other person by his username.<br /><br />The person who commented anonymously above is invited to resubmit his/her comment.<br /><br />Alan Rock Watermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-22724797193957352015-01-15T12:33:16.281-08:002015-01-15T12:33:16.281-08:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-47996086034403037812014-12-16T05:43:37.430-08:002014-12-16T05:43:37.430-08:00Listener, we feel very much the same. We live in ...Listener, we feel very much the same. We live in Australia and are pretty much on our own. We thank God for online connections that help us feel part of a community so much larger than I thought possible. Shell512noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-39631648680067878542014-11-10T21:23:41.212-08:002014-11-10T21:23:41.212-08:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12590121637367467376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-22792104439648674872014-11-05T09:35:06.129-08:002014-11-05T09:35:06.129-08:00Thanks Rock. I love your articles. They are alwa...Thanks Rock. I love your articles. They are always so eye-opening and ultimately allow me to be better spiritually refreshed.<br />About the audio of Denver's ten part series of lectures...<br />I remember reading in Denver's blog before or around when he started the 10 lectures that he agreed to let someone record and sell the audio CD's of the lectures with the specific agreement that when the series was complete that they would be made available as FREE MP3 downloads. I am confident that I am recalling this correctly and I am sure that many others remember this as well. (I know you are not in any way affiliated.)<br />I wanted to get it out in the open in a public forum that we remember that this was, essentially, promised to us and we are expecting and waiting for it.<br />With as many people as there are interested in these lectures and the prices being charged, there is no way that modest travel costs and negligible CD publishing expenses were not covered long ago, for the facilitator. It has been about two months since the conclusion and that is about two months longer than would have been needed to release the lectures in FREE audio MP3's. <br />So, please, let's all do what we can to respectfully remind Publishing Hope and Denver (via email and posting elsewhere) that we expect them to come through on the promise of allowing FREE downloads of the 10 lecture series. Thanks.Gilnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-29192905036236872782014-10-21T11:24:49.972-07:002014-10-21T11:24:49.972-07:00BK, your comments about prayer and the ministry of...BK, your comments about prayer and the ministry of angels and Christ appear to contradict the Book of Mormon. I'm just wondering if you consider it scripture so we can know where you're coming from?Jesefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15568983976920671988noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-34611862702931611272014-10-21T10:56:26.829-07:002014-10-21T10:56:26.829-07:00Mike H.
Very well said! I'm glad that there a...Mike H.<br /><br />Very well said! I'm glad that there are those, like yourself, that can cut to the heart of the matter without offense.<br /><br />Rock, as always a good post, which has generated thoughtful response. I know little about Denver, or his ideas. I've read a few of his talks and purchased one of his books, but haven't made much progress. Fortunately, I have a neighbor that has been searching longer than I have and has helped to encourage me a bit. <br /><br />I know that you don't mean to be a role model, but I am constantly impressed by the way you live your life and conduct yourself, so thanks for your example as well. It's refreshingly Christian in a sea of LDS lemmings.Dale Bnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-34924328488091509952014-10-18T11:19:04.913-07:002014-10-18T11:19:04.913-07:00Me,
I believe because it's easier. Most peop...Me, <br /><br />I believe because it's easier. Most people just would rather play 'follow the leaders', who teach easy things, then have to think & study for themselves and live higher harder laws. <br /><br />We see this same thing around the world politically too. <br /><br />Few there be that are willing to work to 'find it or live it. <br /><br />But as far as those who do seek the face of the Lord & have angels appearing to them, I see the same thing, they too don't consider that they could be led astray too, by false angels & false Christ's appearing to them. <br /><br />So I would ask them the same questions too. <br /><br />Why do they blindly believe & follow angels or someone who appears to them calling himself Christ or God? <br /><br />Everyone I have heard of who claims to have been visited by Christ, does not appear to be keeping Christ's commandments or even believe in them or have Christlike love. So somethings amiss. <br /><br />Christ says he only appears to those who keep his commandments and have true Christlike love (which is very rare). <br /><br />Having your 'calling & election made sure' is a 'Mormon idea', not a doctrine of Christ. <br /><br />People who claim to have been visited by Christ must prove their claims by their actions and love, by their keeping His commandments, otherwise they can't expect to be believed and should also doubt their own experience, but they never seem question who appeared to them, just like most LDS don't question their leaders.BKnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-2308322439674119342014-10-18T01:25:05.896-07:002014-10-18T01:25:05.896-07:00All you TBM's out there:
Why will you not stu...All you TBM's out there:<br /><br />Why will you not study what is plain stated in the scriptures?<br /><br />Why will you not search your history?<br /><br />Why do you rely on what your "leaders" say?<br /><br />Why have your "prophets" not seen the face of the Lord?<br /><br />Why haven't YOU sought the face of the Lord?<br /><br />Why do they rob the poor?<br /><br />Why do you not see the signs and manifestations?<br /><br />Why do Angels not appear to you?<br /><br />Why are you so hard hearted to not consider you are being led astray?menoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-73905220682475299962014-10-17T17:48:18.558-07:002014-10-17T17:48:18.558-07:00Hey Rock and the Pure Mormonism Community!
Great ...Hey Rock and the Pure Mormonism Community!<br /><br />Great post btw, Rock, love it.<br /><br />Question, a bit off topic, but I was reading the GC talks and noticed that for the Sunday morning session, there are 3 talks dealing heavily with sustaining the "prophets," one after the other. <br /><br />I find that terribly interesting, and suspect that is because most people watch that session. Anybody else notice that and does anybody have any idea if there's some stats on that floating on the interwebs? I can't really find anything at the moment so if someone could give me some direction, thanks!<br /><br />WestAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-1724520692865619062014-10-17T14:00:42.967-07:002014-10-17T14:00:42.967-07:00Ashley Ingram,
The things discussed in this blog...Ashley Ingram, <br /><br />The things discussed in this blog really have nothing to do with you or the church aside from the lesson of it for this audience, which by the way found this place on their own without any missionaries or advertising.<br /><br />Just like a lesson in church about sin or the ills of drinking and smoking, the subject matter is not the message, but the learning of right through it. Surely you don't think we can suspend the law of learning through opposition to make your internet searches more congenial? Just because this discussion has a reference to Mormonism by loosely described Mormons, you think to have a voice or weigh in on it. I disagree. <br /><br />For, when someone like Kate Kelly openly and not in private speaks her perspective in that arena, she is drummed out, and she is one of your own and committed to your institution and sustaining it's leaders, less perhaps it's traditions. So, we see how your leaders care for their own. And your condemning behavior is like theirs. <br /><br />This blog though is not trying to change the church or members like you, we're not going back to the institution, we're moving on. But in moving on we need to identify and contrast where we're at and where it's brought us. It requires learning. <br /><br />You wrongly bring up other movements in the church here so as to label us and clump us together. I for one am just learning about Denver Snuffer. But I'm not a pioneer looking for a prophet to believe in. If there's one thing I've learned from this blog is that we can follow Christ directly and individually. Why would I want to mess that up with more traditions and false doctrine imposed by leaders and institutions? I neither believe I need nor do I want a middle man, so you can dispense with the group labels. But what I do enjoy is communion with like minded people who have something enlightening to share, and I'm thankful for it, but I'm not beholden to them for it. As for Dehlin I've listened to some of his podcasts, but he if he is trying to change the church, I have no part in that and frankly no position on his beliefs. Because while the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints might be a prerequisite to the Church of Christ, I don't think the two have alot in common or would. It's just a tool to get us to the next step on the stairway of progression. If your happy there, great!! Follow your own path and progression. This blog isn't trying to stop you, or school you, but it apparently isn't for you. And we're not here for you to criticize or give sermon. Personally, I think you ought to save it for gospel doctrine.<br /><br />You tell us that the wicked take the truth to be hard, but why do you take this blog or movements to be hard? Every scripture you can quote against these movements can be used against your own, within a context. <br /><br />You compare us to people who have lost their religion and pick and choose. But we are finding our religion, and taking hold of it proactively, and we are defining what it isn't. And in doing so we are refining what it is. All individually by what is learned for them. For me it's Christ, without traditions and false doctrine, without fancy buildings and expensive furnishings, without the power to include and shun, without grooming and dress requirements. It's free, without price or coercion. It's learning to becoming answerable to One voice, not the perspectives of hundreds or thousands. <br /><br />Some show up here and complain about the hardness of Rock's posts and cite only the condemnation, and can't see the bigger message, the actual message, which extols Christ and the individuals free access to him. Rock might not get all the details of his criticisms right all of the time, but the message isn't about the stumbling blocks in front of us, but in what we can have without them.<br /><br /><br /><br />Mike Hnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-61101816314680526322014-10-17T13:35:31.013-07:002014-10-17T13:35:31.013-07:00UPDATE:
I've added an artist's sketch of D...UPDATE:<br />I've added an artist's sketch of Denver Snuffer with a pertinent quote to the body of the original post above. You'll find it near the end of the piece.Alan Rock Watermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04971243364867111868noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-71708150780820570042014-10-15T19:37:13.177-07:002014-10-15T19:37:13.177-07:00I don't believe the heavens are closed. I beli...I don't believe the heavens are closed. I believe each of us has the right to get doctrinal understanding for ourselves. The Hindus have the principle of Karma, but through discussing this with my Indian friends it means something totally different then what I thought. If you have a handicapped brother it is your Karma to take care of him. Karma means to fully accept you lot in life. Mormonism is part of my lot in life. I believe being Mormon is where God wants me to be. The Denver Snuffer has some great points about that when looking at the church we need to ask, are we better off because we are Mormon. The point is, we are. Part of my Mormon lot is to see men think they are more holy than the rest of us. I don't believe that's a good thing, but does God want me to see that. Yes, He does. But I am not going to run from my Karma because of it. The thing I don't like is when blogs get to negative. We are all fellow travelers that have something to contrimbute to eachother. The prophets of our church tend to think they are always in front of the pack, but everyone of us has something to offer. The path is hard enough without beating eachother on it. We are at this blog for a reason and I believe it is to help eachother.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624853971129396721noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-79668079673835669542014-10-14T23:30:47.888-07:002014-10-14T23:30:47.888-07:00Joe,
The Church and it's leaders may 'ta...Joe, <br /><br />The Church and it's leaders may 'talk' about Christ occasionally and some of his teachings (though they don't mention the ones they don't follow), but they don't live by them. Their lips speak of Christ but their hearts are far from him. <br /><br />I believe I and my family would have been a lot better off had we not been raised in the LDS Church, but in instead a more Christian Church. <br /><br />For it has taken me over 30 years to untwist my mind from all the falsehoods that I've been taught. Falsehoods that have brought me and my family many sore trials, hardships, sorrow, destruction & blindness, because we were taught things opposite the Gospel of Jesus Christ by men pretending to be prophets. <br /><br />God may have wanted us all to be prophets & even missionaries and spread his 'Gospel' (not church) in our spare time, but I do not believe he wants us to build formal churches, temples and malls until there are no more poor among us. <br /><br />Nor do I believe God wants us to give our sacred tithing to leaders, who have proven they can't be trusted to not pocket the money themselves and ignore the poor & fatherless. God commanded us to give our excess money to the poor directly, for who can be trusted to do that for us? <br /><br />I believe there are so many other churches & people in the world that teach & live the Gospel of Jesus Christ so much better then the LDS Church or most of it's members do, and especially without all the teachings of many whoredoms like polygamy & blind obedience. <br /> <br /> BKnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-39595211510752135052014-10-14T22:04:35.003-07:002014-10-14T22:04:35.003-07:00Joe
I have a sure witness from God that the Ho...Joe<br /><br /> I have a sure witness from God that the Holy Ghost brought me the gospel.<br /><br /><br /> Your statement the the church is spreading the gospel and bringing souls to Christ has been implanted into your brain and the devil of devils delights in it. <br /><br /> I know you may find this idea crazy and hard to believe but it is Jesus Christ who brings people to Christ. Your declaration of the saving power of an institution is idolatry. No credit for salvation can be given to anything other than God. <br /><br /> I hope the church you go to teaches nothing different. <br /><br /> "You say that all that matters is the relationship between us and God. This is false...this is false. A functioning church requires..."<br /><br /> This almost sounds like you are equating God to a functioning church. Like if there was no functioning church God would cease to exist. <br /><br /> Your comment may have revealed the most clear glimpse into typical LDS thought that I have seen in a long time and it is saddening.Natenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-41996677604023643062014-10-14T20:49:09.090-07:002014-10-14T20:49:09.090-07:00Everyone wants to criticize the church and assert ...Everyone wants to criticize the church and assert that ever since Joseph Smith it has been in apostasy...Let me remind you folks that it is this "apostate" church that brought the gospel to you and introduced you to Mormonism. Without this "apostate church" you would not be here today arguing about the finer points of the religion.<br /><br />Now you can say that all that matters is the relationship between us and god...this is false. A functioning church requires leaders and missionaries, among a great many other things, to spread the word.<br /><br />Everyone is here because they have the free agency to be here. You all have claimed to "see the light" and observed the falsehoods in the church. Good for you. This has nothing to do with the fact that the church is still spreading the gospel and bringing souls to Christ. I really do noy give a crap what Monson does. His behavior has nothing to do with me. Let him buy all the shopping malls he desires; I can't stop him. In the mean time, I have the free agency to do as I will. I have no need to condemn the church. I choose to let others hear the gospel as I did, and come to their own conclusions about the state of affairs the church is in. If I condemn the church, I am attempting to sway others to my beliefs. It is up to everyone to establish their own belief system.<br /><br />JoeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-67446118617671206012014-10-14T15:45:59.106-07:002014-10-14T15:45:59.106-07:00Second part for Ashley
Part II
We are not to le...Second part for Ashley <br /><br />Part II <br />We are not to let anyone get in between our relationship with Jesus ... not a bishop, stake president, or President of the church, and yet look at what is happening today in our apostate church. (Isaiah's assessment of us, and whom Jesus refers us to - in fact commands us to study Isaiah). Jesus said "what was will be" meaning that what happened to the covenant land of Israel will happen to the covenant land of America. Read Jonathan Cahn's works and you will see the mysteries of the holy days being fulfilled. We do ourselves a huge disservice by only paying attention to the BOM and D&C ... The Old Testament has the patterns to gauge ourselves ... The bible is amazing but Mormons, for the most part, ignore the word of God in those scriptures because we have been misled that the BOM is the most accurate set of scriptures. I say baloney! It is the OT that has the holy days which are huge -- they are ordinances to be observed for eternity and do we pay attention to them? Does the church teach about them? There is much right about the church, but there is much right about any church ... God's people are those who worship him ... period. All you have to do is go to a worship service of Evangelicals to understand how much they love Jesus ... they testify and witness him all the time and we think they are crazy talking about Jesus all the time. Yet they are not ashamed to declare their love and loyalty to him. They may not like Mormons, but they sure love Jesus! We have been brainwashed in so many things ... it is time to awake, arise, shake off the dust of illusion and deceit, and walk towards the light ... towards our God and none other. Below is from a talk given by Elder Scott re: not letting leadership get in the way of your worship of Jesus. I hope it is of benefit to you. And I hope that one day we stand alongside all faiths in declaring our love, devotion and passion to the God who saves and that we are not ashamed to make the declaration. Google Come Unto Christ - Elder Richard G. Scott ... to read about not allowing leadership to get in between your relationship with Christ.Josephnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1342380624800894371.post-26149931015046082452014-10-14T15:45:31.616-07:002014-10-14T15:45:31.616-07:00I would like to address my comments to Ashley ... ...I would like to address my comments to Ashley ... I do understand your position for it is a position we all have held at certain times in our lives with not wanting to be negative, critical or abandon the church and its leaders. With that said, I believe the error we keep making and mankind has always made, is that we are so good at idolatry (idol worshipping)and giving another man/woman our power. Until we come to Christ, by ourselves, for ourselves, we cannot get direct clear answers. When we look to anyone for our salvation we are in big trouble for the only one who provides our salvation is Jesus and not any prophet, whether it be Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph Smith or Pres. Monson. I believe all prophets are mortals and have made big mistakes ... but God uses us mortals to bring to pass his will. From the time I was young I had an issue with the so-called worshipping of Joseph Smith instead of Jesus. Heck, most LDS believe Joseph was so dang celestial and could make no mistakes because he received so many revelations. What I do know is ANYONE who has spiritual gifts, who sees beyond the veil, sees so much from so many different realms, that if your discernment is not keen, that you misunderstand what you are seeing and which realm you are receiving from. Joseph made some grave errors, as we all do. Hugh Nibley wrote an excellent article entitled "Treasures in the Heavens' ... I recommend people reading that for it talks about the need for God to even veil his kingdom because of the darkness and evil which is a constant battle. I am not a follower of Denver, he doesn't want anyone to be but he is a messenger who has had amazing things revealed to him. The Book of Mormon was written for us because we are the ones who are under condemnation ... it isn't talking to the people who will never read the BOM, but to us. God commands us to study Isaiah and if you understand Isaiah it says in the last days the prophets' heads are covered (meaning they do not receive revelation) and that the whole church is in apostasy. It is a hard thing to wake up from this dream/illusion that we are such the covenant favored people of the Lord. The Jews thought they too were the favored covenant people of God and look what they did to Jesus because they were so religious and obedient to the law. When I was young and read the BOM I knew we were like the people of King Noah ... they were religious, keeping the ordinances, but their hearts were far from God. <br /><br />Josephnoreply@blogger.com