Sunday, October 5, 2014

The Problem With Denver Snuffer

Previously: Farewell, Sweet Soul

I'm willing to bet there's no one in Mormondom more misrepresented than Denver Snuffer has been these past few weeks. You'll find no shortage of people willing to tell you all about what Denver Snuffer believes in, or denounce him and warn you away from him based on extensive research they gleaned from hours of vigorous guessing.

If there's a problem with Denver Snuffer, it's that there is a veritable glut of wild speculation about him from people who have no idea what they're talking about. Much of what I’ve heard others say about the mysterious Brother Snuffer is wildly inaccurate, yet declared with an air of testimonial certainty by people who have never heard him speak or bothered to read a word he has written. Normally I'd find such ignorance oddly endearing; maybe even a bit entertaining. But right now I just find it...well, odd.

The man does have a website, after all. So anyone can just go over there and have a peek at this mystery man's writings. He has authored ten books, some of which had been available through Deseret Book before he was declared persona non grata from that fine establishment. Those books can still be purchased through Amazon.com and Barnes & Noble. His recent series of lectures, the source of most of the current controversy, can be read online for free. So I'd think it shouldn't be too much trouble to learn something about the man's beliefs by going to the source himself instead of lazily sitting around making up Boogeyman stories. Denver Snuffer is a lot less scary than some would make him out to be.

Boogah-Boogah!
Denver Snuffer was a devout member of the LDS church for 40 years, all the way up until the day they excommunicated him for writing a book. I reported on that incident in my post The Denver Snuffer Debacle. If you are unfamiliar with who Denver is, you may want to read that piece first. Click here.

This particular book of Denver's was titled Passing The Heavenly Gift. It is a history of LDS Church leadership. And it is a very good one. No one in the Church hierarchy ever claimed anything in the book was inaccurate.

Nevertheless, Elder Russell M. Nelson of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles took it upon himself to pressure Brother Snuffer's stake president to excommunicate Denver from the church unless he pulled the book from publication.[1]  Nelson leaned on Snuffer's stake president for a year and a half until finally Denver got the boot. Overnight an active, believing, devout stake high councilman who always kept his covenants and whose testimony never wavered was suddenly labeled an apostate. Over a book he wrote. A book no one challenged as being in error.

This move on the part of Elder Nelson was a serious violation of church law, as members of the Twelve are forbidden to interfere in such matters within the stakes of the church. The scriptures say so, and so did Joseph Smith. But today’s leaders rarely consult the scriptures anymore, and Joseph Smith is dead, so members of the Twelve disobey that instruction all the time.[2]
_________________

[1]Denver Snuffer, Letter of Appeal to the First Presidency, included as an appendix to the Phoenix Transcript, pg 41-42. https://www.scribd.com/doc/239760895/10-Phoenix-Transcript-Preserving-the-Restoration.

[2] "The Twelve will have no right to go into Zion or any of its stakes and there undertake to regulate the affairs thereof where there is a standing High Council. But it is their duty to go abroad and regulate all matters relative to the different branches of the church.” -Joseph Smith to the Twelve, Kirtland Council Minute Book as quoted in Shephard and Marquardt, Lost Apostles: Forgotten Members of Mormonism's Original Quorum of the Twelve pg 85-86. See also D&C Sections 102 and 107.

To my knowledge, Russell Nelson has never denied the key part he played in the ouster of Brother Snuffer. If he did he would be lying. Someone has, however, managed to arrange for several members of the Church PR department to lie for him. This keeps Russell Nelson's hands clean and allows him plausible deniability.[3]

Despite being excommunicated for “apostasy” (which nowadays means anything the leaders want it to mean), Denver remains a devout believer in the gospel of the Restoration. So he went ahead with his plans for a year-long series of speaking engagements, the overall theme being, as the late Hugh Nibley aptly titled his own book, Approaching Zion.

In that book, compiled from speeches and articles written as far back as 40 years ago, Nibley lamented how far we have come from attaining a Zion society, which was supposed to be our principal goal from the moment this church was founded. Nibley asserted that rather than getting closer to Zion, the Church seemed be running lickety-split in the other direction. He noted that the Church in our day has more in common with Babylon than with Zion. He reminded us that Church leaders named Babylonian institutions like the local Federal Reserve branch “Zion's Bank,” which is as close to a slap in the face as you can give to God without hurting your own hand. Nibley made some very pointed barbs toward those in Church leadership, yet no one in the Church hierarchy moved to excommunicate him for his criticisms as they later did Denver Snuffer. Nibley was a beloved and respected Church scholar all the way up until his death at age 95.

Nibley's book was published at a time when there weren't that many overt indications that the Church was veering dangerously off track, so back then, Nibley did not succeed in rousing the Saints to their awful situation. Today it's a different story. There is widespread disillusionment among the rank and file. Hugh Nibley is dead, but Denver Snuffer's similar concerns are now resonating with a great many church members.

I have not seen Denver Snuffer say anything that a number of renowned LDS thinkers like Hugh Nibley would not have said also. What Denver mostly does is encourage his listeners to return to the scriptures. As Nibley also pointed out, a good many of our scriptures tend to indict those in positions of power who would lead the Lord’s people in a direction other than that which the Lord has commanded -all while assuring us they are incapable of error.[4]  A growing number of Saints have awakened in recent years to the reality that the prophecies foretold in the book of Mormon are being fulfilled in our very day.

Not Knowing Our Religion
In reading and listening to Denver's lectures, I was reminded of how during my teen and Young Adult years I attended the Church sponsored “Know Your Religion” series wherein various gospel scholars would travel to outlying stakes like mine, where they would present fascinating talks on church history and theology. The things Denver Snuffer teaches in his presentations remind me of things I learned listening to scholars like Truman Madsen and Sidney B. Sperry. Like Brothers Madsen and Sperry, Denver reminded his listeners that we have not been living up to the ideals of the Restoration, and he shows us how we can do better. Nothing very controversial here. Unless you consider the standard works to be controversial.
__________________

[3]For documentation on the recent assurances from the Church public relations department to various media outlets denying interference in local disciplinary matters, along with evidence that those assurances are patently untrue, see chapter 5 of my book, What To Expect When You're Excommunicated: The Believing Mormon's Guide to the Coming Purge. (You didn't think I would miss a chance to plug my own book here, did you? It's available from Benchmark Books in Salt Lake City, and also from Amazon.com.)

[4]Russell Ballard declared, “Keep your eyes riveted on the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. We will not lead you astray. We cannot.”  That's quite a promise of infallibility. Too bad Ballard wasn't able to back it up by quoting the Lord in a direct revelation. All we have for now is Ballard's word on it.

Unrighteous Judgment
Recently I’ve heard from several devout members of the church, most of them women, telling me they have been interrogated by their bishops and stake presidents merely because they were known to have attended one of Denver Snuffer's lectures. Four of them immediately had their temple recommends revoked, their church callings rescinded, and told they were prohibited from taking the sacrament. Others I know have been disfellowshiped, and some were excommunicated. On what grounds? “Associating with a known apostate” is the reason most frequently given.

So now any active, believing member of the church can be disciplined for befriending a non-member.

Many of these attendees were asked “Do you believe Denver Snuffer is a prophet?”

Well, the answer to that should be obvious to anyone who’s familiar with Snuffer. Of course he’s a prophet. The proper response to any bishop who asks such a question is “Aren't you? Aren't we all supposed to be prophets?”

Take a look in the Bible Dictionary at the back of your set of LDS scriptures and you'll find this definition: “In a general sense a prophet is anyone who has a testimony of Jesus Christ by the Holy Ghost.”

Denver Snuffer clearly has such a testimony, and he bears it frequently. But because he is a non-member (through no choice of his own) you can now get called into the Church principal’s office and get suspended or expelled just for being in the same room with this guy.

I suppose the reason Church leaders get so antsy about a member calling another person a prophet is because we Mormons have such a screwy idea of what a prophet is supposed to be. Most of us think of the prophet as the man at the top of the Church organization, the guy whose job it is to run and manage the Church and give us all our marching orders. But historically, a prophet was a far cry from what we have in place today. Look again at the write-up in your Bible Dictionary: “The work of a Hebrew prophet was to act as God's messenger and make known God's will.”

Someone on LDS Freedom Forum gave what I felt was a fairly apt analogy of the role of a prophet. He describes the prophet as similar in a way to the spokesman for the president of the United States. The president gives the spokesman a message to deliver, and he goes out and delivers that message on behalf of the president. That's it. The messenger doesn't all of a sudden start presiding over the executive branch of government. Nor does he convey his own opinion and try to pass that off as the words of his boss. He delivers only the message he's been sent to deliver, and goes no further. No one follows him home to find out what else he thinks.

There's quite a bit more in the Bible Dictionary regarding the role of a prophet, and as it happens, nothing in there bears much resemblance to what we have today; a corporate CEO who shows up to offer the dedicatory prayer over banks,[5] and participate in ribbon cutting ceremonies for lavish shopping centers.[6]
_______________

[5]That's right. The man we revere as the prophet of God on earth traveled to Provo to give the dedicatory prayer for a bank -very similar to the kind of prayers he gives when dedicating a new temple to the Lord.   http://www.heraldextra.com/news/local/central/provo/lds-church-president-dedicates-zions-bank-financial-center/article_aa4c7a09-89ae-5eb4-a361-9fe3d4d400d8.html

[6]See “Bring Ye All The Tithes Into The Stores.” http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2012/07/bring-ye-all-tithes-into-stores.html  and the follow up, “City Creek: How Did We Come To This?” http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2013/01/city-creek-how-did-we-come-to-this_20.html

Joseph Smith not only didn't think his role included making celebrity appearances at store openings, he didn't even believe it was his place to run the church. Unlike the constant mantra we hear today to “follow the prophet,” Joseph vigorously insisted the people stop looking to him. He told them their dependence on him was the very thing that was causing them to be darkened in their minds. He tried repeatedly and in vain to get the members to depend upon no man, especially not him.[7]

Joseph Smith did not head up a hierarchy. Where today the Ensign publishes a fold-out flow chart suitable for framing[8] with the First Presidency at the top, followed by the Twelve Apostles, with the Quorums of the Seventy taking direction under the apostles, and the Relief Society as some awkward appendage to them all, Joseph Smith taught something different. All quorums were independent of each other. No position held status over another (not even the First Presidency, and especially not the Twelve Apostles, whose job it was to be the traveling elders, not some group of managers sitting around a boardroom at Church Headquarters). No division was answerable to another -not even the Relief Society, which was supposed to be completely independent of the male priesthood.
 
There was to be no hierarchy in the Church of Jesus Christ. It was a flat organization, with no one at the top “in charge” of anyone else. No member was subject to another, and no leader had authority over any member. A person with a calling had authority to direct only himself in his duties. He could not use his priesthood power to impose his will on others. If he so much as tried, his priesthood was instantly rendered impotent.[9]

It was a great source of frustration to the prophet Joseph that instead of each man seeking the will of God in his own life, the people clamored for someone else to tell them what to do. Nearly half the members in Nauvoo were converts from the British Isles, where centuries of dependence on authority was bred into the very culture.[10]  After Joseph Smith was murdered, the vast majority of these converts looked to Brigham Young to lead them.

We tend to forget that Brigham Young was not chosen to preside over the church by way of any revelation from God. He was elected by a slim majority of members after vigorously campaigning for that position. And even then it wasn't Brigham Young who the people selected, it was the entire quorum of the Twelve as a body, of whom Brigham Young was the Presiding Elder. Brigham Young was never ordained a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator; after the deaths of Joseph and Hyrum, there was no one left on earth who had those keys. Brigham even denied having the gifts that Joseph was blessed with. Nevertheless, over time we have been taught that Brigham Young was a prophet equal to Joseph Smith, until today our traditions hold that every man who attains the position of president of the Church has gifts and authority equal to those held by the founding prophet himself.

This belief is wholly unsupportable. We have absolutely zero historical evidence to back up these traditions, and we certainly don't see evidence of these gifts in our current leaders. Consider that not even our pioneer ancestors referred to Young, Taylor, Cannon, Woodruff, et al as prophets of God. In those days, the people called them presidents, not prophets. They presided over the church, but I am aware of few revelations received by them that were conveyed to the people as in Joseph Smith's day.
_______________

[7] Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg 237. See also, “Follow the Prophet, Don't Go Astray” http://zomarah.wordpress.com/2010/09/11/follow-the-prophet-dont-go-astray/
 [8] Or wrapping fish.
[9] D&C 121, “Amen to that priesthood.”
[10] See Lake Wobegon Mormons,  http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2012/08/lake-wobegon-mormons.html 

Those leaders who had earlier been contemporaries of Joseph Smith when he was alive, both taught and understood there was only one true prophet of this last dispensation, and the claim to that position was Joseph Smith's alone. This modern idea that the successor to Brigham Young is a full-fledged Prophet, Seer, and Revelator on par with Joseph Smith is a construct that did not develop within the church until the mid 1950s. That's also when the hymn “We Thank Thee O God For A Prophet,” originally intended as a tribute to the memory of Joseph Smith, began to be sung when President David O. McKay entered the tabernacle at the start of conference. Too bad McKay didn't nip that in the bud, because ever since then it has continued to be sung as an anthem glorifying men who never exhibited any gifts of prophecy whatsoever. [11]

In the past decade or two I've noticed that the Twelve Apostles are now also considered prophets, seers and revelators in their own right. I don't know when that business got started, but I don't remember being taught it growing up in the church. And unless I'm missing something, there doesn't seem to be much evidence to back up that claim. As LDS philosopher Tarik D. LaCour recently wrote in Sustaining Church Leaders: 
“In order to be a revelator, one must be a prophet and a seer also. It is not enough merely to have revelations, as all members of the church should have them. Rather, it is to tell others through the power of the spirit what has been revealed to you. If Joseph Smith had kept to himself what was made known to him, he would be a prophet and seer only. But, because what has been made known to him was made known to us, he is a prophet, seer, and revelator.
“Is President Thomas S. Monson a prophet, seer, and revelator? True it is that he holds the keys of the priesthood and is the president of the high priesthood. However, in the 40 plus years that he has been sustained as such, Thomas S. Monson has not made one prophecy, seen [translated] one thing, or revealed any new divine truth. This is not to say he is not a wonderful man. He is. But he is not a prophet, seer , and revelator. By virtue of theoffice he holds as president of the Church, he has the right to use these things. But apparently he does not want to use them.”12
Or it could be that the Lord has not seen fit to reveal anything in our day for reasons He already revealed long ago?[13]   We seem to have forgotten the Lord declared the whole church to be under condemnation. I would think that would include the Church's leaders.

It certainly couldn't have anything to do with the astonishing arrogance of some in high office who wear their titles like badges of honor, could it? On the popular new blog maintained by an anonymous bishop, we learn of this revealing exchange with apostle David Bednar:
I remember in a leadership training meeting where Elder Bednar told the story of how he was asked the following question: “How are you guys (referring to the brethren) so in tune with the Lord?” Elder Bednar’s response was interesting. “First of all,” he said “we are not ‘guys’. We are prophets, seers, and revelators. We are special witnesses. Don’t refer to us as guys.”
Hoooo-chee, Mama! Remind me not to cross that guy. David Bednar is so fully convinced of his special place in the firmament that if you forget to address him with the proper degree of deference, he will dress you down one side and up the other right in front of the the whole assembly! Bet you won't make that mistake again.

Here's my favorite part of this story: later that weekend in a training segment with the youth, Bednar sprinkled his conversation with words such as “dude, rad, gnarly, and freakin” so those kids would think of him as just one of the guys.[14]

[11] The lyrics to the hymn were penned by William Fowler, a British convert. The tune was borrowed from a Scottish bagpipe number played at military funerals. (You many have also noticed that the tune for Praise to the Man is also cribbed from a bagpipe standard, Scotland the Brave.)
[12] Sustaining Church Leaders https://www.scribd.com/doc/241926848/Sustaining-Church-Leaders
For a thorough analysis regarding what gifts should attend a prophet, seer, and revelator, see Michael Ellis, Thomas S. Monson, A Seer, A Revelator, A Translator, and A Prophet. http://zomarah.wordpress.com/2011/02/09/thomas-s-monson-a-seer-a-revelator-a-translator-and-a-prophet/ 

[13] Ezra Taft Benson, “Cleansing the Inner Vessel” https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1986/04/cleansing-the-inner-vessel?lang=eng 
[14] I'm just an old geezer myself, so I'm not up to speed with the groovy lingo of these young hepcats of the now generation, but do kids today still use words like 'rad' and 'gnarly'? Those words were considered 'boss' and 'tubular' when I was a teenager way back in the sixties, so either Bednar is hopelessly out of touch, or I am, Daddy-O. (And isn't it odd that someone of Bednar's snootily proper stature would use the word “freakin',” which everyone knows is a slang variation of a vulgar term referring to the act of procreation?)

Why Not Simply Heed The Message?
Denver Snuffer has never claimed to be a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator, so David Bednar, you and the boys in Salt Lake can breathe easy for now. Denver Snuffer is not after your jobs.

But he did have a message to deliver, and the last part of that message was presented at Phoenix, Arizona on September 9th. In a nutshell, the message was this: if we are to aspire to a Zion society, now is the time to dig in and get started. Waiting for the institutional Church to give us the go-ahead is not going to make it happen. And guess what? Zion was never intended to be instituted from the top down anyway. In fact, it could not be Zion if it was.  Zion has failed to appear thus far because the Saints have been waiting around for their leaders to start it up for them. It's been almost 200 years, and we'll wait 200 more if we refuse to simply follow the plan the Lord has already laid out for us.

You can read the Phoenix transcript for yourself here. But it won't have near as much meaning if you don't take a look at the nine lectures that preceded it. These talks, as Denver frequently reminds the listener, are intended to be seen as ten interrelated segments of one master presentation. They must be heard or read in their entirety and in the proper order if you expect to fully grasp the message.

How do we create Zion? Well first off, you don't do it by quitting this church and joining a new one. That's what so many outsiders feared Denver was up to; that his plan was to siphon off loyal latter-day Saints and start his own church. That's hogwash -the kind of nonsense that results from the current LDS corporate think, the idea that a prophet is some guy who has a bunch of followers who can't function unless they have a leader to look to for instruction. Denver Snuffer has no followers, nor does he want any.

In fact, an interesting thing happened as soon as Denver was finished speaking in Phoenix. He up and walked out the door.
That's right. He just left.

He had left his audience with a thousand questions they wanted answers to, but like the true prophet he is, he delivered the message God gave him to deliver, and when he was finished he was done. Many of the people who read or listened to that lecture later flooded his blog and email box with more questions.

Don't they get it? Denver Snuffer is not going to tell you how to do what the Lord has already taught you to do. He is not going to lead anybody anywhere. He is not going to be your president, prophet, or mystical guru. You want a Zion society? The instructions are in the scriptures. Denver Snuffer helpfully pointed those scriptures out to you. Now he's done. What more do you want?

If you're looking for someone to take charge and lead you, you may as well continue on the path you've been following. You've had people willing to take charge of you and lead you all your life and you're no closer to Zion now than the Saints were in 1831. What's it going to take for you to wake up and realize you don't need leaders in order to accomplish the Lord's purposes? Looking for someone other than Jesus Christ to be in charge of us is the very thing that has hampered this church for a hundred and eighty two years.

I am now encouraged that it's possible create Zion in our day. If anyone reading this is truly interested in doing that, I would suggest simply going to the source and reading the transcripts Denver Snuffer provides on his website, beginning with the first one he gave in Boise Idaho, and ending with the one at Phoenix, Arizona. You'll find them listed in order on the right side of his website. Do not rely on anyone else's summary or truncated interpretation of what Denver believes or what he preaches. I guarantee you will get it wrong.

I had intended to supply some snippets of quotes from the Phoenix seminar, because it's so rich in wisdom. But then I realized that offering snippets of things Denver Snuffer said has been part of the problem; it's very easy to misinterpret what he says if you don't hear or read it all in context.

I got a chuckle out of a question I saw in an online forum where someone had seen that the transcript of the Phoenix presentation was 42 pages long. He was reluctant to read the entire document, and asked the other members of the forum, “is there some sort of Cliff Notes version where I can get the gist of what he's saying?”

I guess he didn't realize that Denver's ten part series of lectures is the Cliff Notes version. These transcripts are the Cliff Notes to the Standard Works. They are an overview and analysis to the entire purpose of the Restoration of the gospel. They represent the coursework that will enable you to get the full gist of God's plan for his people. If you take the trouble to familiarize yourself with Denver Snuffer's Ten Part Overview of the Restoration, you will have earned your G.E.D. in Mormon Studies. Here are the chapter headings:

Be of Good Cheer
Faith
Repentance
Covenants
Priesthood
Zion
Christ
A Broken Heart and Contrite Spirit
Marriage and Family
Preserving the Restoration

That pretty much covers the essentials of what the Lord would have us know and do, front to back. And it's all very fascinating; you won't want to stop. There's nothing tedious about Denver Snuffer's teachings. If you want a deeper understanding, then go ahead and read the entire standard works. But when you do I think you'll be glad you had a guide like Denver Snuffer to point out the good parts for you in advance.

I highly recommend not only reading the transcripts, but also listening to the audio recordings, because Denver has a droll sense of humor that does not always translate to the written page. If you don't hear the inflections in some of the things he says, some of his comments could be misinterpreted, and you might take too seriously some of the things he says in jest. I like listening to the audio version of the talks first, then I read them so I get the footnotes.

Let me make a couple of things clear: First, Denver Snuffer is not looking to lead any kind of movement. The very idea repulses him.

Second, there is no such entity as a “Snuffer-ite.” If you come across someone who calls himself a
follower of Denver Snuffer, run the other way. He's either a phony or he just doesn't get it. Those who attended Snuffer's lectures are not Denver Snuffer's followers. They consider themselves followers of Jesus Christ.

Some years ago while reading a book on early American history, I was struck by a letter sent back to England from one of the colonial governors assigned by the King of England to govern the colonies. He was lamenting the fact that the American colonists refused follow his orders.

“We tell them their king demands obedience, but they stubbornly reply 'we have no king but Jesus.'”

If there is one belief held in common by the thousands so far who have found validity in the messages delivered by Denver Snuffer in his series of talks, it is that we have no king but Jesus. A rapidly growing number of latter-day Saints are discovering that leaders don't contribute anything to the advance of Zion; they often just get in the way. I think of that poor confused colonial governor every time I hear someone try to tell me my safety lies in following the Brethren. It makes me want to remind them of the words of the prophet Joshua, which I prefer to paraphrase.“You can follow whatever idols you want to, but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”

I suggest that if you hope to become spiritually mature, you're going to have to stop letting others frighten you away from examining the words of a fellow believer simply because someone in authority has told you he'll endanger your soul. Read Brother Snuffer's words and judge for yourself whether you think his thoughts are at least as inspired as anything you just heard in general conference this weekend.[15]  And if your bishop, stake president, or any other authority figure asks you if you think Denver Snuffer is a prophet, ask him this question:

“Aren't you a prophet?”

_______________

[15] Yes, I made a joke. Of course Denver Snuffer's words are more inspired than anything you'll hear in conference.

                                                                       *****


[A note about leaving comments: Many readers have posted as "Anonymous" only because they see no other option. This has resulted in an epidemic of commenters all going by the same name, which can be confusing.  I would prefer everyone use some type of username, therefore any comments posted only as "Anonymous" will be deleted. If that happens to you, you are welcome to return and post again, but you must use some kind of username at the beginning or end of your comment.
If you don't have a Google, Wordpress, or other username among those listed, you can enter a username in the dropdown box that reads "Name/URL." Simply put your name in the "Name" box, ignore the request for a URL, and you should be good to go. If the system still insists on a URL, enter any website you care to.  If you can find no alternative but to post as "Anonymous" I require you at least sign your comment with a unique identifier so that other readers can tell one "anonymous" from another.

232 comments:

«Oldest   ‹Older   201 – 232 of 232
Jesef said...

I should have said this upfront, and I hope it is evident in my words, but I intend no offense to anyone. I wish you all love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance and all the fruits of the Spirit.

Jared Livesey said...

Unfortunately, Jesef, personal email is unavailable in this context.

It's not public commentary that is the problem here.

Nate said...

LOG

Jesef is right. Sorry I pointed out what I did whether it was true or not. I will not respond to your comments anymore. I am a hypocrite. I have dealt out my share of accusations. I admit fault. I do not know you perfectly and cast no judgement. I am guessing you are a friend of God and an elect soul. I will keep my distance and hope I have not driven you to feel as though you shouldn't comment. God bless

Jared Livesey said...

Nate,

I accept your apology at face value.

andrew said...

"now we don’t need a lot of continuing revelation"?

"Well, I can say this: That if I live as I should in the line of my duties, I AM SUSCEPTIBLE, I THINK, of the impressions of the Spirit of the Lord upon my mind at any time, JUST AS ANY GOOD METHODIST or any other good church member might be. And so far as that is concerned, I say yes; I have had impressions of the Spirit upon my mind very frequently, but they ARE NOT IN THE SENSE OF REVELATIONS"

"I have NEVER PRETENDED TO NOR DO I PROFESS TO HAVE RECEIVED REVELATIONS"

which wise counsel from the "prophet" should we be following, considering here are two (three really, from two people) examples of admitting nothing new has been revealed in quite some time (these quotes were made nearly 100 years apart)

or talk after talk of being frugal, living within ones means, all the while money is being invested into luxuries. y'know, Hawaiian hotels and shopping malls. oh, you mean this wise counsel?

"let's go shopping"?

please. save your self-righteous all-knowing comments for a BYU forum

Unknown said...

The thing that is most disappointing to see is that most of the evils of this world are perpetuated by our naive trust in men. We are not beings that are meant to be pushed around. God wants us to communicate with him. Trust in the Lord is scripture. It is our relationship with Him that is most important. Pray about Bednar. Pray about Snuffer. Get on your knees and have a conversation with God. Pray or be Prey is the message of the restoration.

BK said...

Jonathan,

I like your message, it does seem that most people just want to be blind followers (cause it's easier, politically & spiritually) and not independent thinkers, for that takes alot of study, thought and testing.

But I believe the idea to 'pray about someone or something' is exactly what you are talking about, a 'naive trust in the philosophy of men who have said 'pray about things & people.

Whereas Christ did not say that, he knew that we can easily be deceived by using prayer as a means to prove things, so Christ said to 'watch and compare' people & things, to what he taught and did.

We need to 'watch' Bednar, Snuffer, Monson, Brigham, Joseph, Abraham, Moses, etc. to see if they are preaching & most importantly 'keeping' the commandments of Christ or not.

No one needs to 'pray about it' to see if they are true disciples of Christ or not. It's very easy to see.

Christ wants us to base our beliefs and faith on facts and sure knowledge that someone or something is right, not on 'warm fuzzies or visions' that can easily be, & usually is, from the Adversary or our own imagination.

Joseph said...

I would like to address my comments to Ashley ... I do understand your position for it is a position we all have held at certain times in our lives with not wanting to be negative, critical or abandon the church and its leaders. With that said, I believe the error we keep making and mankind has always made, is that we are so good at idolatry (idol worshipping)and giving another man/woman our power. Until we come to Christ, by ourselves, for ourselves, we cannot get direct clear answers. When we look to anyone for our salvation we are in big trouble for the only one who provides our salvation is Jesus and not any prophet, whether it be Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph Smith or Pres. Monson. I believe all prophets are mortals and have made big mistakes ... but God uses us mortals to bring to pass his will. From the time I was young I had an issue with the so-called worshipping of Joseph Smith instead of Jesus. Heck, most LDS believe Joseph was so dang celestial and could make no mistakes because he received so many revelations. What I do know is ANYONE who has spiritual gifts, who sees beyond the veil, sees so much from so many different realms, that if your discernment is not keen, that you misunderstand what you are seeing and which realm you are receiving from. Joseph made some grave errors, as we all do. Hugh Nibley wrote an excellent article entitled "Treasures in the Heavens' ... I recommend people reading that for it talks about the need for God to even veil his kingdom because of the darkness and evil which is a constant battle. I am not a follower of Denver, he doesn't want anyone to be but he is a messenger who has had amazing things revealed to him. The Book of Mormon was written for us because we are the ones who are under condemnation ... it isn't talking to the people who will never read the BOM, but to us. God commands us to study Isaiah and if you understand Isaiah it says in the last days the prophets' heads are covered (meaning they do not receive revelation) and that the whole church is in apostasy. It is a hard thing to wake up from this dream/illusion that we are such the covenant favored people of the Lord. The Jews thought they too were the favored covenant people of God and look what they did to Jesus because they were so religious and obedient to the law. When I was young and read the BOM I knew we were like the people of King Noah ... they were religious, keeping the ordinances, but their hearts were far from God.

Joseph said...

Second part for Ashley

Part II
We are not to let anyone get in between our relationship with Jesus ... not a bishop, stake president, or President of the church, and yet look at what is happening today in our apostate church. (Isaiah's assessment of us, and whom Jesus refers us to - in fact commands us to study Isaiah). Jesus said "what was will be" meaning that what happened to the covenant land of Israel will happen to the covenant land of America. Read Jonathan Cahn's works and you will see the mysteries of the holy days being fulfilled. We do ourselves a huge disservice by only paying attention to the BOM and D&C ... The Old Testament has the patterns to gauge ourselves ... The bible is amazing but Mormons, for the most part, ignore the word of God in those scriptures because we have been misled that the BOM is the most accurate set of scriptures. I say baloney! It is the OT that has the holy days which are huge -- they are ordinances to be observed for eternity and do we pay attention to them? Does the church teach about them? There is much right about the church, but there is much right about any church ... God's people are those who worship him ... period. All you have to do is go to a worship service of Evangelicals to understand how much they love Jesus ... they testify and witness him all the time and we think they are crazy talking about Jesus all the time. Yet they are not ashamed to declare their love and loyalty to him. They may not like Mormons, but they sure love Jesus! We have been brainwashed in so many things ... it is time to awake, arise, shake off the dust of illusion and deceit, and walk towards the light ... towards our God and none other. Below is from a talk given by Elder Scott re: not letting leadership get in the way of your worship of Jesus. I hope it is of benefit to you. And I hope that one day we stand alongside all faiths in declaring our love, devotion and passion to the God who saves and that we are not ashamed to make the declaration. Google Come Unto Christ - Elder Richard G. Scott ... to read about not allowing leadership to get in between your relationship with Christ.

Anonymous said...

Everyone wants to criticize the church and assert that ever since Joseph Smith it has been in apostasy...Let me remind you folks that it is this "apostate" church that brought the gospel to you and introduced you to Mormonism. Without this "apostate church" you would not be here today arguing about the finer points of the religion.

Now you can say that all that matters is the relationship between us and god...this is false. A functioning church requires leaders and missionaries, among a great many other things, to spread the word.

Everyone is here because they have the free agency to be here. You all have claimed to "see the light" and observed the falsehoods in the church. Good for you. This has nothing to do with the fact that the church is still spreading the gospel and bringing souls to Christ. I really do noy give a crap what Monson does. His behavior has nothing to do with me. Let him buy all the shopping malls he desires; I can't stop him. In the mean time, I have the free agency to do as I will. I have no need to condemn the church. I choose to let others hear the gospel as I did, and come to their own conclusions about the state of affairs the church is in. If I condemn the church, I am attempting to sway others to my beliefs. It is up to everyone to establish their own belief system.

Joe

Nate said...

Joe

I have a sure witness from God that the Holy Ghost brought me the gospel.


Your statement the the church is spreading the gospel and bringing souls to Christ has been implanted into your brain and the devil of devils delights in it.

I know you may find this idea crazy and hard to believe but it is Jesus Christ who brings people to Christ. Your declaration of the saving power of an institution is idolatry. No credit for salvation can be given to anything other than God.

I hope the church you go to teaches nothing different.

"You say that all that matters is the relationship between us and God. This is false...this is false. A functioning church requires..."

This almost sounds like you are equating God to a functioning church. Like if there was no functioning church God would cease to exist.

Your comment may have revealed the most clear glimpse into typical LDS thought that I have seen in a long time and it is saddening.

BK said...

Joe,

The Church and it's leaders may 'talk' about Christ occasionally and some of his teachings (though they don't mention the ones they don't follow), but they don't live by them. Their lips speak of Christ but their hearts are far from him.

I believe I and my family would have been a lot better off had we not been raised in the LDS Church, but in instead a more Christian Church.

For it has taken me over 30 years to untwist my mind from all the falsehoods that I've been taught. Falsehoods that have brought me and my family many sore trials, hardships, sorrow, destruction & blindness, because we were taught things opposite the Gospel of Jesus Christ by men pretending to be prophets.

God may have wanted us all to be prophets & even missionaries and spread his 'Gospel' (not church) in our spare time, but I do not believe he wants us to build formal churches, temples and malls until there are no more poor among us.

Nor do I believe God wants us to give our sacred tithing to leaders, who have proven they can't be trusted to not pocket the money themselves and ignore the poor & fatherless. God commanded us to give our excess money to the poor directly, for who can be trusted to do that for us?

I believe there are so many other churches & people in the world that teach & live the Gospel of Jesus Christ so much better then the LDS Church or most of it's members do, and especially without all the teachings of many whoredoms like polygamy & blind obedience.

Unknown said...

I don't believe the heavens are closed. I believe each of us has the right to get doctrinal understanding for ourselves. The Hindus have the principle of Karma, but through discussing this with my Indian friends it means something totally different then what I thought. If you have a handicapped brother it is your Karma to take care of him. Karma means to fully accept you lot in life. Mormonism is part of my lot in life. I believe being Mormon is where God wants me to be. The Denver Snuffer has some great points about that when looking at the church we need to ask, are we better off because we are Mormon. The point is, we are. Part of my Mormon lot is to see men think they are more holy than the rest of us. I don't believe that's a good thing, but does God want me to see that. Yes, He does. But I am not going to run from my Karma because of it. The thing I don't like is when blogs get to negative. We are all fellow travelers that have something to contrimbute to eachother. The prophets of our church tend to think they are always in front of the pack, but everyone of us has something to offer. The path is hard enough without beating eachother on it. We are at this blog for a reason and I believe it is to help eachother.

Alan Rock Waterman said...

UPDATE:
I've added an artist's sketch of Denver Snuffer with a pertinent quote to the body of the original post above. You'll find it near the end of the piece.

Mike H said...

Ashley Ingram,

The things discussed in this blog really have nothing to do with you or the church aside from the lesson of it for this audience, which by the way found this place on their own without any missionaries or advertising.

Just like a lesson in church about sin or the ills of drinking and smoking, the subject matter is not the message, but the learning of right through it. Surely you don't think we can suspend the law of learning through opposition to make your internet searches more congenial? Just because this discussion has a reference to Mormonism by loosely described Mormons, you think to have a voice or weigh in on it. I disagree.

For, when someone like Kate Kelly openly and not in private speaks her perspective in that arena, she is drummed out, and she is one of your own and committed to your institution and sustaining it's leaders, less perhaps it's traditions. So, we see how your leaders care for their own. And your condemning behavior is like theirs.

This blog though is not trying to change the church or members like you, we're not going back to the institution, we're moving on. But in moving on we need to identify and contrast where we're at and where it's brought us. It requires learning.

You wrongly bring up other movements in the church here so as to label us and clump us together. I for one am just learning about Denver Snuffer. But I'm not a pioneer looking for a prophet to believe in. If there's one thing I've learned from this blog is that we can follow Christ directly and individually. Why would I want to mess that up with more traditions and false doctrine imposed by leaders and institutions? I neither believe I need nor do I want a middle man, so you can dispense with the group labels. But what I do enjoy is communion with like minded people who have something enlightening to share, and I'm thankful for it, but I'm not beholden to them for it. As for Dehlin I've listened to some of his podcasts, but he if he is trying to change the church, I have no part in that and frankly no position on his beliefs. Because while the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints might be a prerequisite to the Church of Christ, I don't think the two have alot in common or would. It's just a tool to get us to the next step on the stairway of progression. If your happy there, great!! Follow your own path and progression. This blog isn't trying to stop you, or school you, but it apparently isn't for you. And we're not here for you to criticize or give sermon. Personally, I think you ought to save it for gospel doctrine.

You tell us that the wicked take the truth to be hard, but why do you take this blog or movements to be hard? Every scripture you can quote against these movements can be used against your own, within a context.

You compare us to people who have lost their religion and pick and choose. But we are finding our religion, and taking hold of it proactively, and we are defining what it isn't. And in doing so we are refining what it is. All individually by what is learned for them. For me it's Christ, without traditions and false doctrine, without fancy buildings and expensive furnishings, without the power to include and shun, without grooming and dress requirements. It's free, without price or coercion. It's learning to becoming answerable to One voice, not the perspectives of hundreds or thousands.

Some show up here and complain about the hardness of Rock's posts and cite only the condemnation, and can't see the bigger message, the actual message, which extols Christ and the individuals free access to him. Rock might not get all the details of his criticisms right all of the time, but the message isn't about the stumbling blocks in front of us, but in what we can have without them.



Anonymous said...

Hey Rock and the Pure Mormonism Community!

Great post btw, Rock, love it.

Question, a bit off topic, but I was reading the GC talks and noticed that for the Sunday morning session, there are 3 talks dealing heavily with sustaining the "prophets," one after the other.

I find that terribly interesting, and suspect that is because most people watch that session. Anybody else notice that and does anybody have any idea if there's some stats on that floating on the interwebs? I can't really find anything at the moment so if someone could give me some direction, thanks!

West

me said...

All you TBM's out there:

Why will you not study what is plain stated in the scriptures?

Why will you not search your history?

Why do you rely on what your "leaders" say?

Why have your "prophets" not seen the face of the Lord?

Why haven't YOU sought the face of the Lord?

Why do they rob the poor?

Why do you not see the signs and manifestations?

Why do Angels not appear to you?

Why are you so hard hearted to not consider you are being led astray?

BK said...

Me,

I believe because it's easier. Most people just would rather play 'follow the leaders', who teach easy things, then have to think & study for themselves and live higher harder laws.

We see this same thing around the world politically too.

Few there be that are willing to work to 'find it or live it.

But as far as those who do seek the face of the Lord & have angels appearing to them, I see the same thing, they too don't consider that they could be led astray too, by false angels & false Christ's appearing to them.

So I would ask them the same questions too.

Why do they blindly believe & follow angels or someone who appears to them calling himself Christ or God?

Everyone I have heard of who claims to have been visited by Christ, does not appear to be keeping Christ's commandments or even believe in them or have Christlike love. So somethings amiss.

Christ says he only appears to those who keep his commandments and have true Christlike love (which is very rare).

Having your 'calling & election made sure' is a 'Mormon idea', not a doctrine of Christ.

People who claim to have been visited by Christ must prove their claims by their actions and love, by their keeping His commandments, otherwise they can't expect to be believed and should also doubt their own experience, but they never seem question who appeared to them, just like most LDS don't question their leaders.

Dale B said...

Mike H.

Very well said! I'm glad that there are those, like yourself, that can cut to the heart of the matter without offense.

Rock, as always a good post, which has generated thoughtful response. I know little about Denver, or his ideas. I've read a few of his talks and purchased one of his books, but haven't made much progress. Fortunately, I have a neighbor that has been searching longer than I have and has helped to encourage me a bit.

I know that you don't mean to be a role model, but I am constantly impressed by the way you live your life and conduct yourself, so thanks for your example as well. It's refreshingly Christian in a sea of LDS lemmings.

Jesef said...

BK, your comments about prayer and the ministry of angels and Christ appear to contradict the Book of Mormon. I'm just wondering if you consider it scripture so we can know where you're coming from?

Gil said...

Thanks Rock. I love your articles. They are always so eye-opening and ultimately allow me to be better spiritually refreshed.
About the audio of Denver's ten part series of lectures...
I remember reading in Denver's blog before or around when he started the 10 lectures that he agreed to let someone record and sell the audio CD's of the lectures with the specific agreement that when the series was complete that they would be made available as FREE MP3 downloads. I am confident that I am recalling this correctly and I am sure that many others remember this as well. (I know you are not in any way affiliated.)
I wanted to get it out in the open in a public forum that we remember that this was, essentially, promised to us and we are expecting and waiting for it.
With as many people as there are interested in these lectures and the prices being charged, there is no way that modest travel costs and negligible CD publishing expenses were not covered long ago, for the facilitator. It has been about two months since the conclusion and that is about two months longer than would have been needed to release the lectures in FREE audio MP3's.
So, please, let's all do what we can to respectfully remind Publishing Hope and Denver (via email and posting elsewhere) that we expect them to come through on the promise of allowing FREE downloads of the 10 lecture series. Thanks.

Unknown said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Shell512 said...

Listener, we feel very much the same. We live in Australia and are pretty much on our own. We thank God for online connections that help us feel part of a community so much larger than I thought possible.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Alan Rock Waterman said...

A reminder that comments posted here without some kind of identifying moniker will most likely be deleted. That goes especially for comments of a provocative nature, not because I object to the contents, but because other readers cannot always accurately respond without being able to address the other person by his username.

The person who commented anonymously above is invited to resubmit his/her comment.

Ruby said...

I just found this post after googling "Denver Snuffer". Some good friends of mine recently moved to Utah to be baptized into "The Doctrine of Christ", the group of people following Denver Snuffer and organizing themselves into a church according to his teachings. In talking with them they mentioned re-baptizing all of their family as new members of this group of people with Denver at the helm. I easily found this website where the recordings of such baptisms are being done"to be written in special archival ink and placed in the vault when our temple is finally built in the future" (paraphrased, but you can go read it yourself here: http://www.recordersclearinghouse.com/2015/04/). The man running the website is the person who does all the recording of baptisms for this group.

I appreciate your article defending Denver, but it seems to me it needs an serious update from hearing from my friends about his involvement in the workings of this group,the meetings he holds,the re-baptizing, the sacrament taken with red wine and bread...that he's gone down the path many were concerned about in the first place, the very path that he warns time and again about in his words on his website. By asking for individuals to be re-baptized into this new group of his with promises of being "called up" and the building of "a new temple", in my opinion he is asking for them to be following someone OTHER than Christ.

Unknown said...

One must ask the question, the Lord will have to set His hand a "second time, to recover His people" first time was the restoration. Yep, they have slipped away again. Simple clues re all over showing it will and has happened. And if you give the quote about never leading this people astray, include the entire quote... "If you are found doing your duty, ....."

Unknown said...

Thank you for your comment Stephen... I completely agree.

TrueMormon said...

I am very sad for all of you believing in this Denver Snuffer guy. He is leading you down the wrong path. I feel no warm spirit here, nothing at all that would entice me to research further regarding Denver or witness to me he is anything other than a man bitter because he was excommunicated from the church and now leading many others down that same path. In fact, just being on this blog upsets me horribly. I am leaving now. Please be aware, it is so easy to be deceived by a man like this!

Unknown said...

Was Denver married and divorced before he converted to the LDS faith? And was his wife unfaithful? And did He ever share anything about this in any of his books or lectures?

dx said...

Denver is very learned. That confuses a lot of people. They mistake his religious scholarship and depth of knowledge in many areas of scripture for inspiration. He's a learned teacher. He's not an inspired prophet.

NormanFolkler said...

Link for [5] https://web.archive.org/web/20141109155719/http://www.heraldextra.com/news/local/central/provo/lds-church-president-dedicates-zions-bank-financial-center/article_aa4c7a09-89ae-5eb4-a361-9fe3d4d400d8.html

«Oldest ‹Older   201 – 232 of 232   Newer› Newest»